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Posted to users@cocoon.apache.org by Jeff Turner <je...@socialchange.net.au> on 2002/06/28 07:15:20 UTC
Elephants and Mavericks (Re: Giving up! Cocoon too big, slow and confusing)
Thanks for the honest words, instead of silence.
I am reminded of the following definition:
"
second-system effect n.
When one is designing the successor to a relatively small, elegant,
and successful system, there is a tendency to become grandiose in
one's success and design an elephantine feature-laden monstrosity. The
term was first used by Fred Brooks in his classic "The Mythical
Man-Month: Essays on Software Engineering". It described the jump from
a set of nice, simple operating systems on the IBM 70xx series to
OS/360 on the 360 series. A similar effect can also happen in an
evolving system; see Brooks's Law, creeping elegance, creeping
featurism."
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/second-system-effect.html
The choice is to stick around and help fix things (if indeed they are
broken), or jump to a lighter alternative like Maverick:
"Maverick is a minimalist web publishing framework which combines the
best features of Struts and Cocoon and yet is far simpler than
either."
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=velocity-user&m=102387923624439&w=2
--Jeff
On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 10:41:14PM -0400, John Austin wrote:
> I'm back from a short vacation in beautiful Chicago (it really is much
> nicer than Toronto or Montreal) and have waded back in to Cocoon for a
> couple of days.
>
> After just a few hours of poking around I have decided that it will be
> much simpler for me to simply hand-code a whole hat-full of servlets
> than to try and pull any meaning out of Cocoon and it's documentation.
> Fifteen hours on the Interstate wasn't as challenging as trying to
> figure out how one should check a Web Form this month but I didn't have
> that feeling of travelling backwards half of the time. I was also able
> to predict and achieve forward progress (for a change).
>
> Thanks guys, but no thanks.
>
> Maybe I'm getting old, but I really don't understand the need for all
> of the complexity and the lack of documentation in this product.
>
> On the other hand, I used to feel the same way about the mind-numbing
> complexity of a certain thirty-year-old mainframe operating system
> (MVS) produced by IBM back in the sixties and it's patching system
> (SMP4). So it can't just be my age.
>
> Anyway, Cocoon has cost me far morte (a typo that's better than the
> original word) time than it was worth. The chief problems appear to
> have been endlessly re-invented terminology for an overwhelming number
> of 'new concepts' and a complete lack of consistency between different
> components (i.e. functional code, non-functional examples, unbuildable
> documentation and a website that doesn't match up with any single
> released version of the project).
>
> I have a lot of respect for the ability of the people who have built
> this project, but I want them to know that their project appears to be
> out-of-control and could become very difficult to manage. If
> experienced developers (like myself) can't figure out how to use enough
> features in the product to make it worth using, then penetration will
> be limited and all of your efforts will be wasted. There is more to
> this business than stuffing in features at the expense of documentation
> and testing. You have a lot of very good ideas, but the execution of
> the project as a whole seems to be suffering.
>
> I know that I will often look at my JSP and servlet code and think 'XSP
> and Cocoon were sooo much better!' until I remember that I wasn't ever
> able to use enough of Cocoon to make a profit.
>
> Oh, well, at least all of my test systems have bags of memory now!
>
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