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Posted to dev@plc4x.apache.org by Christofer Dutz <ch...@c-ware.de> on 2020/06/05 11:03:16 UTC

[Proposal] Add a "commercial-support" page to the website.

Hi all,

I have just added a new page to the PLC4X website, however it’s not yet linked in the navigation and therefore should remain invisible until Google indexes this email ;-)
It will be available soon from here (As soon as Jenkins is done):
https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html


What we have there is pretty inspired by the support page of the Apache Royale project:
https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/

However I used some different wording and a different proposal for a process to add entries.

I would suggest to use PRs as this way we can have the account of the PR creator on-file in git-blame. Which might come in handy if there should ever be problems.

We were told that in general everyone would be required to have him/herself added to that list no matter their involvement with the project. That’s why I decided to start with this in my proposal. I think with a column on the level of involvement should separate the true contributors from the others.

I think there were also voices that said that an alternative would be a PMC vote, but with very strict rules to how this vote should be done and all votes should have to be performed without any individual bias.

I asked the Royale project on how they dealt with entry requests to that list … they sort of laughed as they didn’t seem to really get any requests at all.

What’s your opinion on this … also the ASF’s opinion is greatly appreciated as we don’t want to do anything that could harm the ASF.

So I would really like to do it the way I proposed it, but that’s just my opinion … your other opinions are worth just as much (Well ok … the ASF’s opinion will probably weigh more ;-) )


Chris

Re: [Proposal] Add a "commercial-support" page to the website.

Posted by Christofer Dutz <ch...@c-ware.de>.
Hi Julian,

the only reason I added that was that this way I was hoping to reduce your hesitation to have just anyone listed.

I think there is nothing preventing us from just taking the first three columns.

But I think we need to have anyone listed who asks to be listed (even if it's a company called "acoolcompany" which would be listed first.

With having the PMC vote on who should be listed and who should not is probably a slippery slope which I wouldn't like to walk on.

Chris


Am 06.06.20, 10:37 schrieb "Julian Feinauer" <j....@pragmaticminds.de>:

    Hi Chris,

    I think ist a good idea to model it as other projects do it BUT I don’t like the way this is setup.
    One thing we take very high at apache is the "two hats" principle.
    Thus I dislike that companies list "all" their employees that are comitters / pmcs like a "trophy", that feels un-apache-esque to me.

    As you know probably better than myself at Apache we value the community and also non-pmc or non-committer contributors and contributions.
    And thus I think a company can also have enough achievement or value to be listed without having a committer to present.

    So I really object the name listing as this is too much "hat mixing" for me.

    Julian

    Am 05.06.20, 20:45 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de>:

        Hi all,

        it seems we can rowspan in tables with asciidoc:
        https://mrhaki.blogspot.com/2014/12/awesome-asciidoctor-span-cell-over-rows.html

        So I would suggest to rowspan the logo name and the description of companies and to have the remaining columns one row per employee.

        Chris


        Am 05.06.20, 15:19 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de>:

            Hi Julian,

            I had already sent an update ... I had initially just copied the text from the adopters page ... 
            Well I thought that we would have multiple rows for multiple people involved and for each specify their involvement ... not sure if we should have a table in a table or similar.

            Chris


            Am 05.06.20, 13:36 schrieb "Julian Feinauer" <j....@pragmaticminds.de>:

                LGTM.

                Although I suggest some changes in the table:
                - More important than a company description would be what they offer (see e.g. Postgres Page: https://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support/europe/)
                - I would make it a bit smaler
                - And Involvement level we should standardize a bit perhaps. You wrote "PMC Member ". But what does that mean? The company? No. One employee? Two?
                - I would state "muliple Employees are PMC members" (which is also true for cc).

                WDYT?

                J

                Am 05.06.20, 13:03 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de>:

                    Hi all,

                    I have just added a new page to the PLC4X website, however it’s not yet linked in the navigation and therefore should remain invisible until Google indexes this email ;-)
                    It will be available soon from here (As soon as Jenkins is done):
                    https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html


                    What we have there is pretty inspired by the support page of the Apache Royale project:
                    https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/

                    However I used some different wording and a different proposal for a process to add entries.

                    I would suggest to use PRs as this way we can have the account of the PR creator on-file in git-blame. Which might come in handy if there should ever be problems.

                    We were told that in general everyone would be required to have him/herself added to that list no matter their involvement with the project. That’s why I decided to start with this in my proposal. I think with a column on the level of involvement should separate the true contributors from the others.

                    I think there were also voices that said that an alternative would be a PMC vote, but with very strict rules to how this vote should be done and all votes should have to be performed without any individual bias.

                    I asked the Royale project on how they dealt with entry requests to that list … they sort of laughed as they didn’t seem to really get any requests at all.

                    What’s your opinion on this … also the ASF’s opinion is greatly appreciated as we don’t want to do anything that could harm the ASF.

                    So I would really like to do it the way I proposed it, but that’s just my opinion … your other opinions are worth just as much (Well ok … the ASF’s opinion will probably weigh more ;-) )


                    Chris

Re: [Proposal] Add a "commercial-support" page to the website.

Posted by Julian Feinauer <j....@pragmaticminds.de>.
Hi Chris,

I think ist a good idea to model it as other projects do it BUT I don’t like the way this is setup.
One thing we take very high at apache is the "two hats" principle.
Thus I dislike that companies list "all" their employees that are comitters / pmcs like a "trophy", that feels un-apache-esque to me.

As you know probably better than myself at Apache we value the community and also non-pmc or non-committer contributors and contributions.
And thus I think a company can also have enough achievement or value to be listed without having a committer to present.

So I really object the name listing as this is too much "hat mixing" for me.

Julian

Am 05.06.20, 20:45 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de>:

    Hi all,

    it seems we can rowspan in tables with asciidoc:
    https://mrhaki.blogspot.com/2014/12/awesome-asciidoctor-span-cell-over-rows.html

    So I would suggest to rowspan the logo name and the description of companies and to have the remaining columns one row per employee.

    Chris


    Am 05.06.20, 15:19 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de>:

        Hi Julian,

        I had already sent an update ... I had initially just copied the text from the adopters page ... 
        Well I thought that we would have multiple rows for multiple people involved and for each specify their involvement ... not sure if we should have a table in a table or similar.

        Chris


        Am 05.06.20, 13:36 schrieb "Julian Feinauer" <j....@pragmaticminds.de>:

            LGTM.

            Although I suggest some changes in the table:
            - More important than a company description would be what they offer (see e.g. Postgres Page: https://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support/europe/)
            - I would make it a bit smaler
            - And Involvement level we should standardize a bit perhaps. You wrote "PMC Member ". But what does that mean? The company? No. One employee? Two?
            - I would state "muliple Employees are PMC members" (which is also true for cc).

            WDYT?

            J

            Am 05.06.20, 13:03 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de>:

                Hi all,

                I have just added a new page to the PLC4X website, however it’s not yet linked in the navigation and therefore should remain invisible until Google indexes this email ;-)
                It will be available soon from here (As soon as Jenkins is done):
                https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html


                What we have there is pretty inspired by the support page of the Apache Royale project:
                https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/

                However I used some different wording and a different proposal for a process to add entries.

                I would suggest to use PRs as this way we can have the account of the PR creator on-file in git-blame. Which might come in handy if there should ever be problems.

                We were told that in general everyone would be required to have him/herself added to that list no matter their involvement with the project. That’s why I decided to start with this in my proposal. I think with a column on the level of involvement should separate the true contributors from the others.

                I think there were also voices that said that an alternative would be a PMC vote, but with very strict rules to how this vote should be done and all votes should have to be performed without any individual bias.

                I asked the Royale project on how they dealt with entry requests to that list … they sort of laughed as they didn’t seem to really get any requests at all.

                What’s your opinion on this … also the ASF’s opinion is greatly appreciated as we don’t want to do anything that could harm the ASF.

                So I would really like to do it the way I proposed it, but that’s just my opinion … your other opinions are worth just as much (Well ok … the ASF’s opinion will probably weigh more ;-) )


                Chris

Re: [Proposal] Add a "commercial-support" page to the website.

Posted by Christofer Dutz <ch...@c-ware.de>.
Hi all,

it seems we can rowspan in tables with asciidoc:
https://mrhaki.blogspot.com/2014/12/awesome-asciidoctor-span-cell-over-rows.html

So I would suggest to rowspan the logo name and the description of companies and to have the remaining columns one row per employee.

Chris


Am 05.06.20, 15:19 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de>:

    Hi Julian,

    I had already sent an update ... I had initially just copied the text from the adopters page ... 
    Well I thought that we would have multiple rows for multiple people involved and for each specify their involvement ... not sure if we should have a table in a table or similar.

    Chris


    Am 05.06.20, 13:36 schrieb "Julian Feinauer" <j....@pragmaticminds.de>:

        LGTM.

        Although I suggest some changes in the table:
        - More important than a company description would be what they offer (see e.g. Postgres Page: https://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support/europe/)
        - I would make it a bit smaler
        - And Involvement level we should standardize a bit perhaps. You wrote "PMC Member ". But what does that mean? The company? No. One employee? Two?
        - I would state "muliple Employees are PMC members" (which is also true for cc).

        WDYT?

        J

        Am 05.06.20, 13:03 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de>:

            Hi all,

            I have just added a new page to the PLC4X website, however it’s not yet linked in the navigation and therefore should remain invisible until Google indexes this email ;-)
            It will be available soon from here (As soon as Jenkins is done):
            https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html


            What we have there is pretty inspired by the support page of the Apache Royale project:
            https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/

            However I used some different wording and a different proposal for a process to add entries.

            I would suggest to use PRs as this way we can have the account of the PR creator on-file in git-blame. Which might come in handy if there should ever be problems.

            We were told that in general everyone would be required to have him/herself added to that list no matter their involvement with the project. That’s why I decided to start with this in my proposal. I think with a column on the level of involvement should separate the true contributors from the others.

            I think there were also voices that said that an alternative would be a PMC vote, but with very strict rules to how this vote should be done and all votes should have to be performed without any individual bias.

            I asked the Royale project on how they dealt with entry requests to that list … they sort of laughed as they didn’t seem to really get any requests at all.

            What’s your opinion on this … also the ASF’s opinion is greatly appreciated as we don’t want to do anything that could harm the ASF.

            So I would really like to do it the way I proposed it, but that’s just my opinion … your other opinions are worth just as much (Well ok … the ASF’s opinion will probably weigh more ;-) )


            Chris

Re: [Proposal] Add a "commercial-support" page to the website.

Posted by Christofer Dutz <ch...@c-ware.de>.
Hi Julian,

I had already sent an update ... I had initially just copied the text from the adopters page ... 
Well I thought that we would have multiple rows for multiple people involved and for each specify their involvement ... not sure if we should have a table in a table or similar.

Chris


Am 05.06.20, 13:36 schrieb "Julian Feinauer" <j....@pragmaticminds.de>:

    LGTM.

    Although I suggest some changes in the table:
    - More important than a company description would be what they offer (see e.g. Postgres Page: https://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support/europe/)
    - I would make it a bit smaler
    - And Involvement level we should standardize a bit perhaps. You wrote "PMC Member ". But what does that mean? The company? No. One employee? Two?
    - I would state "muliple Employees are PMC members" (which is also true for cc).

    WDYT?

    J

    Am 05.06.20, 13:03 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de>:

        Hi all,

        I have just added a new page to the PLC4X website, however it’s not yet linked in the navigation and therefore should remain invisible until Google indexes this email ;-)
        It will be available soon from here (As soon as Jenkins is done):
        https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html


        What we have there is pretty inspired by the support page of the Apache Royale project:
        https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/

        However I used some different wording and a different proposal for a process to add entries.

        I would suggest to use PRs as this way we can have the account of the PR creator on-file in git-blame. Which might come in handy if there should ever be problems.

        We were told that in general everyone would be required to have him/herself added to that list no matter their involvement with the project. That’s why I decided to start with this in my proposal. I think with a column on the level of involvement should separate the true contributors from the others.

        I think there were also voices that said that an alternative would be a PMC vote, but with very strict rules to how this vote should be done and all votes should have to be performed without any individual bias.

        I asked the Royale project on how they dealt with entry requests to that list … they sort of laughed as they didn’t seem to really get any requests at all.

        What’s your opinion on this … also the ASF’s opinion is greatly appreciated as we don’t want to do anything that could harm the ASF.

        So I would really like to do it the way I proposed it, but that’s just my opinion … your other opinions are worth just as much (Well ok … the ASF’s opinion will probably weigh more ;-) )


        Chris

Re: [Proposal] Add a "commercial-support" page to the website.

Posted by Julian Feinauer <j....@pragmaticminds.de>.
LGTM.

Although I suggest some changes in the table:
- More important than a company description would be what they offer (see e.g. Postgres Page: https://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support/europe/)
- I would make it a bit smaler
- And Involvement level we should standardize a bit perhaps. You wrote "PMC Member ". But what does that mean? The company? No. One employee? Two?
- I would state "muliple Employees are PMC members" (which is also true for cc).

WDYT?

J

Am 05.06.20, 13:03 schrieb "Christofer Dutz" <ch...@c-ware.de>:

    Hi all,

    I have just added a new page to the PLC4X website, however it’s not yet linked in the navigation and therefore should remain invisible until Google indexes this email ;-)
    It will be available soon from here (As soon as Jenkins is done):
    https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html


    What we have there is pretty inspired by the support page of the Apache Royale project:
    https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/

    However I used some different wording and a different proposal for a process to add entries.

    I would suggest to use PRs as this way we can have the account of the PR creator on-file in git-blame. Which might come in handy if there should ever be problems.

    We were told that in general everyone would be required to have him/herself added to that list no matter their involvement with the project. That’s why I decided to start with this in my proposal. I think with a column on the level of involvement should separate the true contributors from the others.

    I think there were also voices that said that an alternative would be a PMC vote, but with very strict rules to how this vote should be done and all votes should have to be performed without any individual bias.

    I asked the Royale project on how they dealt with entry requests to that list … they sort of laughed as they didn’t seem to really get any requests at all.

    What’s your opinion on this … also the ASF’s opinion is greatly appreciated as we don’t want to do anything that could harm the ASF.

    So I would really like to do it the way I proposed it, but that’s just my opinion … your other opinions are worth just as much (Well ok … the ASF’s opinion will probably weigh more ;-) )


    Chris