Re: Re: In regards to Open Office

[Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>]

Le 04/10/2016  06:50, Peter Kovacs a crit :
> ODF has a better trancperency then OOXML. But beeing open we need to embrace and value both formats.
>

This is the key point for AOO now IMHO.
I think there is a point having import filters to give users a way to open the files. Then the natural thing would be to save in ODF.

That's what was done with OOXML: AOO can import but the code to export in OOXML is not activated. it does exist somewhere but it has never been implemented by design.
My fear is: if AOO exports in OOXML (as LibO does), what will happen to ODF? Most users would just use OOXML since it would be compatible with AOO and MS Office. It may lead to frustration because of the glitches from the conversions. OTOH, it may attract new users.
Note: it may say that bugs like 1900 leap year bug in OOXML are accepted (except if it has been fixed since).

If there was at least the possibility to store the information linked to the AOO features in OOXML without triggering any "conversion" operation, it may be a 3rd way. Does OOXML allow that? I doubt it but perhaps there is room in parts of the format that allow some kind of customization. It would be sad however to lose the human readable structure of ODF (quite useful in case a file is corrupted or when you need to inspect a file in detail).

Hagar

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Re: In regards to Open Office

[Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>]

Le 08/10/2016  12:34, Peter Kovacs a crit :
> You seem to like the way ODFormat is defined.
To be precise, I like the the intent of ODF. Several parties decided to work together so that a fully documented file format could be used with advanced application features (I mean that could store data needed by complex applications like word processors, spreadsheets, ...). Perhaps there was other file formats at that time. Perhaps the momentum created by OOo helped ODF at the same time despite other file formats availability.
I've a scientific background. Thus I'm more in favor of standardization than closed blackboxes (or badly documented features).


> But what is with Bill Pate, who has done a lot of work, and is looking atm for a different tool.
> He has fear that all his work is lost or unsuable of sorts when he imports to Open Office. Or maybe his work is lost after a while he finds out he misses MSO so much he wants to return.
> We should also try to answer towards his fear.

Then I think my answer was clear: AOO can do what he wants but it will require a change in the file format he's using right now (assuming he saves in .docx).

> See I want to stay open. That means I work into the direction that supports your requirement and to Bill Pate requirement. Giving both of you the maximum of choice that is possible to provide with the available ressources.
> This is a huge maybe impossible challenge. But I have some Ideas.

Thanks!

> Still looking what Open Office already implements of them and what has to be improved. And I will not manage to deliver on time atm. But I hope I find support. In you and others that are interested in OO.

Of course. The main issue IMHO is that similar features may be handled differently. So any bridge for "conversion" may introduce some glitches. There may also be issues if some parts refer to undisclosed documentation. Let's hope there are very few of them.

> Openess incorporates for me /*Libert, galit, Fraternit*/. Not fully supporting OOXML means giving up on galit. Not accepting the Users requirements is against my whish for Fraternit. 

I'm OK with that as long as everybody has the means to implement OOXML (.docx, ...). But it has been discussed at length in this discussion already.
Note that by galit, you mean that everyone should be allowed to use the format he wants. My opinion is that the galit is to use the same format (hence the importance of the interoperability). However, they are free in their choice of what format or application they want to use. The free choice falls in the Libert for me.

> For me there is a political dimension in joining Open Office. And also imortant one in this times.
> [...]
> I am sorry for drifting into idological point of view, but it explains my feelings pretty well.

Same for me.

Hagar


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Re: Re: In regards to Open Office

[Peter Kovacs <le...@gmail.com>]

On 04.10.2016 22:04, Hagar Delest wrote:
>
> Le 04/10/2016  06:50, Peter Kovacs a crit :
>> ODF has a better trancperency then OOXML. But beeing open we need to 
>> embrace and value both formats.
>>
>
> My fear is: if AOO exports in OOXML (as LibO does), what will happen 
> to ODF?
You seem to like the way ODFormat is defined. I think we should support 
you and offer you the choice for various options on this file format.
Maybe something a compatible ODF definition towards MSO, so you are safe 
that you MSO buddy can exchange documents with you.
Or offer you ODF 1.2 standard. So you feel more home and save.

But what is with Bill Pate, who has done a lot of work, and is looking 
atm for a different tool.
He has fear that all his work is lost or unsuable of sorts when he 
imports to Open Office. Or maybe his work is lost after a while he finds 
out he misses MSO so much he wants to return.
We should also try to answer towards his fear. (please note I assume 
here something, but the assumption is for makeing a position clear not 
for anything else.)

See I want to stay open. That means I work into the direction that 
supports your requirement and to Bill Pate requirement. Giving both of 
you the maximum of choice that is possible to provide with the available 
ressources.
This is a huge maybe impossible challenge. But I have some Ideas. Still 
looking what Open Office already implements of them and what has to be 
improved. And I will not manage to deliver on time atm. But I hope I 
find support. In you and others that are interested in OO.
Openess incorporates for me /*Libert, galit, Fraternit*/. Not fully 
supporting OOXML means giving up on galit. Not accepting the Users 
requirements is against my whish for Fraternit.
For me there is a political dimension in joining Open Office. And also 
imortant one in this times.

"The World could use more Heros." - Tracer, Overwatch, Blizzard

8)

I am sorry for drifting into idological point of view, but it explains 
my feelings pretty well. IMHO this is more an emotional thing then 
technical thing.

Re: Re: In regards to Open Office

[Xen <li...@xenhideout.nl>]

Hagar Delest schreef op 04-10-2016 22:04:

> My fear is: if AOO exports in OOXML (as LibO does), what will happen
> to ODF? Most users would just use OOXML since it would be compatible
> with AOO and MS Office. It may lead to frustration because of the
> glitches from the conversions. OTOH, it may attract new users.

Personally: I hardly ever do things because of 'rational reasons' of 
that kind. I dislike the very idea of OOXML to begin with and as a 
developer I just lost interest in developing for MS Windows when I was 
about 18. My favourite format is ODF because I do not use MS Office 
anyway (haven't used it since about 2000) and "odt" also looks nice in a 
file browser.

But I'm at pains because for me both OpenOffice and LibreOffice are 
insufficient in terms of quality and robustness and I have started 
writing stuff in Google Docs because (a) it doesn't crash and (b) it 
doesn't throw away my text.

And for me a vital issue is the poor undo functionality in both 
programs.

Every other program out there has 1000x superior undo functionality as 
compared to LibreOffice and OpenOffice.

The smallest text box in some Browser has better undo functionality than 
what we have here. And I cannot live without that, because I often have 
to redo some parts of my text and I cannot constantly save everything 
for fear I am making a mistake.

Hence, today I write in a browser. At least on Linux. On Windows I have 
options (most notably just Wordpad).

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