You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.fr> on 2014/04/12 20:24:02 UTC
Licensing: exception for allowing Apache SIS to bundle EPSG data?
Hello all
In ApacheCon last week, I had an opportunity to talk with some peoples
about how we could resolve LEGAL-183 and I have been told that I may
have to ask for an exception on this mailing list. The issue is that we
would like to bundle EPSG data together with Apache SIS. EPSG conditions
[2] allow distribution for profit in any commercial package (clause 6.3)
provided that commerciality is based on value added by the provider. In
other words, users are not allowed to sell the EPSG data *alone*. But
they are allowed to sell EPSG data + Apache SIS (or + their own product).
All major commercial and open source softwares in geographic domain
bundle the EPSG data, while I'm not sure that all of them paid attention
to the licensing terms. Can we make an exception in licensing terms for
SIS saying that users are not allowed to sell the content of the
"core/sis-referencing/src/main/resources/org/apache/sis/referencing/epsg" directory
*alone*, that they have to keep this directory with something else
(presumably at least the Apache SIS code which read that directory) if
they want to sell?
Martin
[1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-183
[2] http://www.epsg-registry.org/help/xml/Terms_Of_Use.html
Re: Licensing: exception for allowing Apache SIS to bundle EPSG data?
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <de...@apache.org>.
Hello Kevan
Sorry for the delayed reply - this was a SMTP issue.
Le 16/04/14 17:34, Kevan Miller a écrit :
> Correct me if I'm wrong -- 6.6 means I can change the data, but only
> using the techniques described in the table. If I want to change the
> data in some other way, I cannot (without violating the terms of use).
In my understanding, it is a matter of "EPSG" name usage: if I want to change the data is some other way, I shall not use the "EPSG:####" code for the modified data.
More specifically, clause 6.6 restricts the changes that we can apply to the definitions associated to EPSG codes. For example I can not change the definition of "EPSG:4326", except using the techniques described in the table. But I can (in my understanding) copy some definitions in my own namespace, e.g. "40000", and apply modifications there as long as I do not attribute those changes to EPSG.
Indeed, the EPSG guide said "Users who wish to augment the EPSG data with their own information should utilise codes greater than 32767. This will prevent conflict with future additions to the EPSG Dataset" [1]. The Unicode standard does something similar: it defines a Private Use Areas in the [U+E000 ... U+F8FF] code range where anyone can put his own stuff. But it would not be good practice to change the meaning of U+0041 (defined as 'A' by the Unicode consortium).
Admittedly, it is not clear if our "own information" can be derivative of EPSG information. From my talks with EPSG peoples, I think that their intend is only to protect the EPSG namespace integrity, not to prevent modified copy in user's own namespace. Should I send an email to the EPSG chair for clarification?
> 6.3 means that I cannot strip off Apache SIS and sell the EPSG data.
>
> Those are restrictions (on top of ALv2) which you would have to add to
> Apache SIS. Agreed?
Yes. All EPSG data bundled in Apache SIS would be grouped in a single directory, so the restriction would be something like "Content of directory 'XXX' can not be sell alone".
> How is that more lax than ALv2?
My comment about being more relax than ALv2 was for clause 6.6 rather than 6.3. The Apache license does not allow usage of "Apache" name for modified software, while EPSG allows usage of "EPSG" name (or at least their code space) for modified data if the modifications do not exceed the changes listed in the table.
Martin
[1] http://www.epsg.org/guides/docs/G7-1.pdf section 5.9.1.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Licensing: exception for allowing Apache SIS to bundle EPSG data?
Posted by Kevan Miller <ke...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Martin Desruisseaux <
martin.desruisseaux@geomatys.fr> wrote:
> Le 15/04/14 19:05, Kevan Miller a écrit :
> > Clauses 6.3, 6.6, and 6.7 all describe restrictions on the EPSG data
> > -- and they pose problems for including EPSG in SIS.
> Clause 6.7 said that if the user changes the data in a "significant" way
> ("significant" being defined by clause 6.6), he shall not attribute the
> change to EPSG. In some scenarios it may be a matter of human life: if a
> public transportation claims to provide its geographic location
> according the Coordinate Reference System EPSG:4326, if it actually uses
> a "modified EPSG:4326", then the transport will not be where other
> peoples think it is, with all the risks we can imagine. The EPSG
> restriction allows users to change the data, provided that they use
> their own name.
>
I should not have included 6.7 in my list. My mistake.
> Apache license has a similar restriction: "This License does not grant
> permission to use the trade names, trademarks, service marks, or product
> names of the Licensor" (Apache clause 6). FAQ [1] is more explicit: "May
> I call my modified code 'Apache'?", the answer is "no". So why such
> restriction would be acceptable for Apache but not for EPSG, especially
> given the safety implications of EPSG data accuracy?
>
> To me, the EPSG restriction actually seems more flexible than the
> Apache's one :-), because clause 6.6 describes a set of changes that we
> can apply while retaining the "EPSG" name, while Apache license does not
> give any circumstance allowing users to name their modified code "Apache".
>
>
> > If EPSG was software, I would say that EPSG could not be included in
> > Apache SIS, because of these restrictions. I see no reason why we
> > should treat EPSG differently, because EPSG is "data".
> We can rewrite a new software complying to the same contract than the
> original one. But we can not "rewrite" data. For example the Unicode
> tables define "U+0041" as 'A' - there is no way we can create an "Apache
> Unicode" with the same meaning for codes. We could create new tables,
> but they would be incompatible with Unicode. Likewise the EPSG tables
> defines "EPSG:4326" as "World Geodetic System 1984" (together with other
> information). There is no way we can create Apache tables compatible
> with EPSG without copying the data.
>
>
> > So, my question to EPSG would be -- could you make EPSG data available
> > under a license which does not impose these restrictions on use,
> > modification, and redistribution?
> Would it be really responsible to ask for relaxing clause 6.6 and 6.7
> given the safety implications? Furthermore those clauses seem to me
> already more relax than Apache 2 license.
>
> If clause 6.6 and 6.7 are considered acceptable, that would leave only
> clause 6.3 as an open question.
>
Correct me if I'm wrong -- 6.6 means I can change the data, but only using
the techniques described in the table. If I want to change the data in some
other way, I cannot (without violating the terms of use).
6.3 means that I cannot strip off Apache SIS and sell the EPSG data.
Those are restrictions (on top of ALv2) which you would have to add to
Apache SIS. Agreed?
How is that more lax than ALv2?
> > If the answer is no, then the next question for SIS to ask is -- can
> > we make the EPSG data optional? And allow users to download the EPSG
> > data, themselves, if they desire?
> EPSG codes are close to ubiquitous in today geographic web services.
> Most users would likely be forced to download EPSG data before they can
> make non-trivial use of SIS. An additional complication is that new EPSG
> versions sometime requires an SIS code update (which may take some
> time), and EPSG does not provide public archives of their old versions.
>
Thanks for the info.
Re: Licensing: exception for allowing Apache SIS to bundle EPSG data?
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.fr>.
Hello Kevan
Thanks for your reply.
Le 15/04/14 19:05, Kevan Miller a écrit :
> Clauses 6.3, 6.6, and 6.7 all describe restrictions on the EPSG data
> -- and they pose problems for including EPSG in SIS.
Clause 6.7 said that if the user changes the data in a "significant" way
("significant" being defined by clause 6.6), he shall not attribute the
change to EPSG. In some scenarios it may be a matter of human life: if a
public transportation claims to provide its geographic location
according the Coordinate Reference System EPSG:4326, if it actually uses
a "modified EPSG:4326", then the transport will not be where other
peoples think it is, with all the risks we can imagine. The EPSG
restriction allows users to change the data, provided that they use
their own name.
Apache license has a similar restriction: "This License does not grant
permission to use the trade names, trademarks, service marks, or product
names of the Licensor" (Apache clause 6). FAQ [1] is more explicit: "May
I call my modified code 'Apache'?", the answer is "no". So why such
restriction would be acceptable for Apache but not for EPSG, especially
given the safety implications of EPSG data accuracy?
To me, the EPSG restriction actually seems more flexible than the
Apache's one :-), because clause 6.6 describes a set of changes that we
can apply while retaining the "EPSG" name, while Apache license does not
give any circumstance allowing users to name their modified code "Apache".
> If EPSG was software, I would say that EPSG could not be included in
> Apache SIS, because of these restrictions. I see no reason why we
> should treat EPSG differently, because EPSG is "data".
We can rewrite a new software complying to the same contract than the
original one. But we can not "rewrite" data. For example the Unicode
tables define "U+0041" as 'A' - there is no way we can create an "Apache
Unicode" with the same meaning for codes. We could create new tables,
but they would be incompatible with Unicode. Likewise the EPSG tables
defines "EPSG:4326" as "World Geodetic System 1984" (together with other
information). There is no way we can create Apache tables compatible
with EPSG without copying the data.
> So, my question to EPSG would be -- could you make EPSG data available
> under a license which does not impose these restrictions on use,
> modification, and redistribution?
Would it be really responsible to ask for relaxing clause 6.6 and 6.7
given the safety implications? Furthermore those clauses seem to me
already more relax than Apache 2 license.
If clause 6.6 and 6.7 are considered acceptable, that would leave only
clause 6.3 as an open question.
> If the answer is no, then the next question for SIS to ask is -- can
> we make the EPSG data optional? And allow users to download the EPSG
> data, themselves, if they desire?
EPSG codes are close to ubiquitous in today geographic web services.
Most users would likely be forced to download EPSG data before they can
make non-trivial use of SIS. An additional complication is that new EPSG
versions sometime requires an SIS code update (which may take some
time), and EPSG does not provide public archives of their old versions.
Martin
[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Licensing: exception for allowing Apache SIS to bundle EPSG data?
Posted by Kevan Miller <ke...@gmail.com>.
IIUC, Clause 2 refers to the EPSG facilities. Although what "Distribution
for profit is forbidden" is a bit vague to me. IMO your question revolves
around Clause 6, which seems to explain the terms and restrictions of how
the EPSG data can be used.
Clauses 6.3, 6.6, and 6.7 all describe restrictions on the EPSG data -- and
they pose problems for including EPSG in SIS.
If EPSG was software, I would say that EPSG could not be included in Apache
SIS, because of these restrictions. I see no reason why we should treat
EPSG differently, because EPSG is "data".
So, my question to EPSG would be -- could you make EPSG data available
under a license which does not impose these restrictions on use,
modification, and redistribution?
If the answer is no, then the next question for SIS to ask is -- can we
make the EPSG data optional? And allow users to download the EPSG data,
themselves, if they desire?
If the answer to these are no, then you would ask -- can we include EPSG
data in SIS, even though the data has the restrictions described in clause
6? I would be inclined to say No. Other opinions my vary...
--kevan
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Martin Desruisseaux <
martin.desruisseaux@geomatys.fr> wrote:
> Hello Hen
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> Le 15/04/14 15:48, Henri Yandell a écrit :
> > It sounds like you're suggesting that any "commerciality" would relate
> > to the Apache SIS code instead of to the EPSG dataset itself.
>
> Yes. Apache SIS uses the EPSG data for performing map projections. EPSG
> alone or Apache SIS alone are not sufficient for this task: we need the
> dataset to feed the software for getting a complete system.
> Commerciality is provided by "EPSG + Apache SIS" and there is, indeed,
> companies selling similar combinations.
>
> Note: I know the chair of EPSG dataset, so I could contact him for
> clarification if we can formulate a question.
>
> Martin
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: Licensing: exception for allowing Apache SIS to bundle EPSG data?
Posted by Martin Desruisseaux <ma...@geomatys.fr>.
Hello Hen
Thanks for your reply.
Le 15/04/14 15:48, Henri Yandell a écrit :
> It sounds like you're suggesting that any "commerciality" would relate
> to the Apache SIS code instead of to the EPSG dataset itself.
Yes. Apache SIS uses the EPSG data for performing map projections. EPSG
alone or Apache SIS alone are not sufficient for this task: we need the
dataset to feed the software for getting a complete system.
Commerciality is provided by "EPSG + Apache SIS" and there is, indeed,
companies selling similar combinations.
Note: I know the chair of EPSG dataset, so I could contact him for
clarification if we can formulate a question.
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Licensing: exception for allowing Apache SIS to bundle EPSG data?
Posted by Henri Yandell <he...@yandell.org>.
Specifically, of interest are clause 2:
"The EPSG Facilities are published by OGP at no charge. Distribution for
profit is forbidden."
and clause 6.3:
"The data may be included in any commercial package provided that any
commerciality is based on value added by the provider and not on a value
ascribed to the EPSG Dataset which is made available at no charge."
---
It sounds like you're suggesting that any "commerciality" would relate to
the Apache SIS code instead of to the EPSG dataset itself.
Hen
On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Martin Desruisseaux <
martin.desruisseaux@geomatys.fr> wrote:
> Hello all
>
> In ApacheCon last week, I had an opportunity to talk with some peoples
> about how we could resolve LEGAL-183 and I have been told that I may have
> to ask for an exception on this mailing list. The issue is that we would
> like to bundle EPSG data together with Apache SIS. EPSG conditions [2]
> allow distribution for profit in any commercial package (clause 6.3)
> provided that commerciality is based on value added by the provider. In
> other words, users are not allowed to sell the EPSG data *alone*. But they
> are allowed to sell EPSG data + Apache SIS (or + their own product).
>
> All major commercial and open source softwares in geographic domain bundle
> the EPSG data, while I'm not sure that all of them paid attention to the
> licensing terms. Can we make an exception in licensing terms for SIS saying
> that users are not allowed to sell the content of the
> "core/sis-referencing/src/main/resources/org/apache/sis/referencing/epsg"
> directory *alone*, that they have to keep this directory with something
> else (presumably at least the Apache SIS code which read that directory) if
> they want to sell?
>
> Martin
>
>
> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-183
> [2] http://www.epsg-registry.org/help/xml/Terms_Of_Use.html
>
>