[spearhead] random thoughts only :D

[Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>]

Merlin
------
While I think it makes sense for Steve to continue on an evolutionary 
pattern of taking merlin to new heights (I think there is a lot of value 
in this package, the surface of what it can do barely scratched), it 
doesn't for me. There are simply too many semantics, too many 
(non-)assumptions I will have to digest, too many features I really 
don't need.

I thought about turning merlin upside down and inside out to rip out all 
of the things I didn't like or didn't understand, and I've done some 
experimentation, but things just fall over to easily. The cyclic depency 
  metrics maven generates tell that story. Besides that, turning things 
upside down because I don't understand them would be annoying to Steve 
and to merlin users at little gain.

Phoenix
-------
While I think phoenix provides a powerful base with a potential for 
expanding into a platform supporting all container features we need, I 
feel it does not serve phoenix well to have a radical unstable branch. I 
don't want to dillute the brand, and I want to experiment.

Fortress
--------
Fortress is real nice, but it still carries the burden of legacy support 
for ECM, including some of its design decisions which I don't like. I 
don't want those in the back of my mind while working on a container.

Plexus
------
Plexus is outside of my sphere of influence. I like Jason and I think 
all the other people working on it are pretty cool people as well, but 
it is clear plexus development is driven by immediate commercial need, 
and I've recently decided I am going to stay away from "the business 
world" feel for as long as I can.

Jicarilla
---------
This is the name of my private playground at SF (it really is no more or 
less than that; 
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/jicarilla/). It contains 
a version (I have several wildly varying setups on my local machine) of 
a much more general framework than avalon, and it pretty much is crap to 
use (though there's an HTTP parser with potential in there, if anyone 
feels like doing a clean HTTP stack ;). These experiments have reassured 
my belief that what I've began to think about more and more as "poor 
man's aspectj" coupled with strong SoC & IoC is where we should go. IOW, 
  Jicarilla for me confirms avalon-framework should stay the basis of 
the container-component contract.

...spearheading lots of talk
----------------------------
I've taken a rather detailed look over the last few months at merlin, 
phoenix, plexus and fortress. Of these, I like the clean composition and 
coding of phoenix, the simplicity of fortress, the down-to-earth 
business-oriented feel of plexus, the general project setup and 
conceptual organisation of merlin, and all the developers. I have yet to 
take a more detailed look at EOB, which I think has some valuable ideas 
(XP! yeah!) to harvest/digest as well. I've also looked at 
non-avalon-style appservers, like JBoss, Equinox, netbeans, Jetty, 
Tomcat, etc. And I've looked at "border tech" like xdoclet, keel, 
cocoon, xforge, james, turbine, maven, jelly, FOP, gump. I am almost 
done with my overview ;)

I've pretty much made up my mind about the features in most of those 
containers that I would want to see merged into "something new". I am 
planning to start exploring these thoughts in more detail over the next 
few weeks using RT posts. To give the code that is the subject of these 
thoughts a name, I'm going to use "spearhead". I am hoping this talk 
will lead to a positive "my thoughts to your thoughts, your thoughts to 
my thoughts" feedback loop with y'all.

I am also still hoping for more entries into the most silly picture 
contest :D

I don't really envision where these talks should lead to at all, iow, it 
is specifically not my plan to actually develop a container  called 
"spearhead". It'll be a thought experiment. Expect lots of ascii art :D

g'night,

- LSD



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Re: [spearhead] random thoughts only :D

[Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>]

Leo Simons wrote:
> 
> Fortress
> --------
> Fortress is real nice, but it still carries the burden of legacy support 
> for ECM, including some of its design decisions which I don't like. I 
> don't want those in the back of my mind while working on a container.

Out of curiosity, which ones?  To be fair, there are a couple that I
think need to be changed, but I believe I can handle that without
breaking backwards compatability.

> ...spearheading lots of talk
> ----------------------------
> I've taken a rather detailed look over the last few months at merlin, 
> phoenix, plexus and fortress. Of these, I like the clean composition and 
> coding of phoenix, the simplicity of fortress, the down-to-earth 
> business-oriented feel of plexus, the general project setup and 
> conceptual organisation of merlin, and all the developers. I have yet to 
> take a more detailed look at EOB, which I think has some valuable ideas 
> (XP! yeah!) to harvest/digest as well. I've also looked at 
> non-avalon-style appservers, like JBoss, Equinox, netbeans, Jetty, 
> Tomcat, etc. And I've looked at "border tech" like xdoclet, keel, 
> cocoon, xforge, james, turbine, maven, jelly, FOP, gump. I am almost 
> done with my overview ;)

Simplicity was a specific design goal with Fortress--which is something
that is hard to achieve.  It looks like you have been busy, so I look
forward to hearing more.

> I've pretty much made up my mind about the features in most of those 
> containers that I would want to see merged into "something new". I am 
> planning to start exploring these thoughts in more detail over the next 
> few weeks using RT posts. To give the code that is the subject of these 
> thoughts a name, I'm going to use "spearhead". I am hoping this talk 
> will lead to a positive "my thoughts to your thoughts, your thoughts to 
> my thoughts" feedback loop with y'all.

If you've got a laundry list, put it up on the WIKI and post a link.
I have what I would like to pursue as well--I'm sure theres a ton of
overlap.

> I am also still hoping for more entries into the most silly picture 
> contest :D

Unless you send us all digital cameras, it will probably not happen from
me ;P

> I don't really envision where these talks should lead to at all, iow, it 
> is specifically not my plan to actually develop a container  called 
> "spearhead". It'll be a thought experiment. Expect lots of ascii art :D

It is good to see where common points are, and what can be learned from
the different implementations.

-- 
"You know the world is going crazy when the best
rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy,
The Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is
accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want
to go to war. And the 3 most powerful men in America
are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon' (sic)".

-----Chris Rock


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Re: [spearhead] random thoughts only :D

[Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>]

Leo Simons wrote:

> I am also still hoping for more entries into the most silly picture 
> contest :D 


Leo:

I'll have you know that you were the center of an international 
controversy last night.  I explained to a couple of friends that this 
particular "individual" named Leo Simons was requesting damaging and 
incriminating information about yours truly.  I explained to my two 
friends that in all honestly I could not locate any damaging or 
incriminating evidence (irrespective of a sustained and systematic 
assessment of all available digital information).  As it turns out 
((much to my surprise) - one of these guys (SF origin whose name shall 
not be disclosed here) claims to have multiple examples of digital 
transgressions and other assorted memorabilia (this just goes to show 
that you can't trust Americans no mater which coast they live on).  

He requested that I provide him with this list address however I took 
the 5th and for what it's worth it seems to have worked. However, you 
will be pleased to know that actions are in place at a global scale to 
bring together some digital content that will hopefully satisfy your 
curiosity without necessarily breaching any recognized rules of conduct 
(a.k.a plausible deniability).

As a side note - I don't have a digital camera - don;t like them - I 
prefer an my old B&W Pentax (actually the Pentax isn't B&W but the film 
is).  I took my first good picture on that camera back when I was about 
a couple of younger than you are now.  I've still go that picture. One 
of these shots was just plain magic (sort of like understanding Merlin 
and hense this totally unnecessay email but I know Paul's reading so 
I'll stop rambling and get to the punchline).

It's a picture of a jaguar leaping off the bonnet (hood) of a vehicle of 
the same name - springtime, early morning, Hyde Park (Sydney Aust.) - 
sun rising, due drop glistening on the cat's eye, the cat's alive, the 
trees in the background - out of focus - like a jungle. It's an image 
all about placing yourself in a particular point of abstraction and 
having the confidence to let everything unfold.

Spot the parallel?

Cheers, Steve.

;-)

Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net

Sent via James running under Merlin as an NT service.



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