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Posted to users@netbeans.apache.org by Lars Bruun-Hansen <lb...@gmail.com> on 2017/12/14 07:31:52 UTC
Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
Geerjan wrote
> Meantime I will manually unsubscribe those who try to unsubscribe in this
way.
I've been in contact with some of these users. At least for some the issue
is that they come from a really low-traffic mailing list from netbeans.org
(like the announcement mailing list) and when they were told to migrate
they were given only two choices, dev@ and users@. With a lot more traffic
as a result. Personally I didn't consider this angle before now.
For these users using the digest options may be more appropriate. And
sometimes they just want to leave.
In my off-list emails to these users I do the complete opposite of
Geertjan. I'm trying to teach them how to solve such an issue generically
[1]: try google, try looking at the header, try looking at the method you
used for signing up, maybe a digest is better for you?, etc. This is not
always well received. :-) .. so maybe Geertjan's approach is better.
There's also sometimes a language barrier.
The mailing list system used by Apache is ezmlm. Before the Apache
transition, netbeans.org used sympa. Both of them support footers (in ezmlm
it is called 'trailer') but the feature wasn't engaged in the old world
(sympa), neither is it active now on ezmlm. As someone has already said
such a feature is fragile because it won't work on base64 encoded messages
or html messages. But ezmlm will abstain from adding the trailer if it
thinks it is dangerous to do so.But at least the trailer will get onto some
messages. ezmlm also offers other options such as automatically rejecting
messages where the only text is "unsubscribe".
I think the issue will die out by itself. Only a bit sad that we loose
those users who have a genuine interest in NetBeans but are just
overwhelmed by the traffic.
/Lars
[1] https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/teach+a+man+to+fish
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 7:15 AM, Ankit Singh <an...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Please unsubscribe me
> On 14 Dec 2017 3:49 am, "John Muczynski" <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Thomas,
>>
>> Yup, I got a registration email that describes how to unsubscribe. But I
>> personally know how to unsubscribe. In fact, I just forwarded the
>> instructions to a couple lost souls who are trying to get off the list.
>>
>> I'm referring to the ongoing discussion about "Why are there so many
>> emails with the subject unsubscribe?"
>> My point is this: people are used to having an unsubscribe link, and
>> replying "unsubscribe" and don't seem to be familiar with registration
>> emails and the other particulars of the email server. That means the email
>> server software isn't meeting the needs and expectations of the user, right?
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Johnny
>>
>>
>> --
>> Johnny Muczynski
>> 734-262-2045 <(734)%20262-2045>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Thomas Kellerer <sh...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> John Muczynski schrieb am 13.12.2017 um 18:50:
>>>
>>>> Here in the US, when I receive an email from some company -- say for
>>>> example someone using MailChimp -- then at the bottom of the email
>>>> there's a link named _*Unsubscribe*_
>>>>
>>>>
>>> When you registered for this list, you got an email that also described
>>> how to un-subscribe:
>>>
>>>
>>>> To remove your address from the list, send a message to:
>>>> <us...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Re: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
Posted by Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>.
I’m confused by “overwhelmed by the traffic” - nbusers hasn’t had that much traffic in years (if I had to guess, maybe less than a handful each day?). I see more ‘unsubscribe’ emails on the new mailing list than subject related questions.
tom
> On Dec 14, 2017, at 2:36 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Lars Bruun-Hansen
> <lb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...Only a bit sad that we loose those
>> users who have a genuine interest in NetBeans but are just overwhelmed by
>> the traffic....
>
> FWIW, if an annouce@ list makes sense for Apache NetBeans you just
> have to ask for it.
>
> -Bertrand
RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
Posted by Martin Schlapfer <ms...@vocera.com>.
+1 for announce list
-----Original Message-----
From: Ferro, Alasdair [mailto:Alasdair_Ferro@mentor.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 12:10 AM
To: users@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
One vote for an announce list! I was only subscribed to the old one and don't really want the volume of e-mails I've had so far from the user@ list :-(
Alasdair
-----Original Message-----
From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacretaz@apache.org]
Sent: 14 December 2017 07:37
To: users@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Lars Bruun-Hansen <lb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Only a bit sad that we loose those
> users who have a genuine interest in NetBeans but are just overwhelmed
> by the traffic....
FWIW, if an annouce@ list makes sense for Apache NetBeans you just have to ask for it.
-Bertrand
Re: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> ...Do we need to vote on this, can Bertrand as our mentor create this?...
I suggest that you propose, on the dev list, creating an announce@
list and wait 24 hours before requesting the list (in an infra jira)
-Bertrand
Re: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
Yes, sounds like a great idea, I think it will help a lot.
Do we need to vote on this, can Bertrand as our mentor create this?
On the other hand, people will still be sending ‘unsubscribe’ messages
here, I fear. I basically don’t understand why these mails are still coming
in despite our mails explaining and discussing how to unsubscribe.
Gj
On Thursday, December 14, 2017, Ferro, Alasdair <Al...@mentor.com>
wrote:
> One vote for an announce list! I was only subscribed to the old one and
> don't really want the volume of e-mails I've had so far from the user@
> list :-(
>
> Alasdair
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacretaz@apache.org]
> Sent: 14 December 2017 07:37
> To: users@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Lars Bruun-Hansen
> <lb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...Only a bit sad that we loose those
> > users who have a genuine interest in NetBeans but are just overwhelmed by
> > the traffic....
>
> FWIW, if an annouce@ list makes sense for Apache NetBeans you just
> have to ask for it.
>
> -Bertrand
>
RE: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
Posted by "Ferro, Alasdair" <Al...@mentor.com>.
One vote for an announce list! I was only subscribed to the old one and don't really want the volume of e-mails I've had so far from the user@ list :-(
Alasdair
-----Original Message-----
From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacretaz@apache.org]
Sent: 14 December 2017 07:37
To: users@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Lars Bruun-Hansen
<lb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Only a bit sad that we loose those
> users who have a genuine interest in NetBeans but are just overwhelmed by
> the traffic....
FWIW, if an annouce@ list makes sense for Apache NetBeans you just
have to ask for it.
-Bertrand
Re: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Lars Bruun-Hansen
<lb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Only a bit sad that we loose those
> users who have a genuine interest in NetBeans but are just overwhelmed by
> the traffic....
FWIW, if an annouce@ list makes sense for Apache NetBeans you just
have to ask for it.
-Bertrand
Re[2]: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
Posted by Jeremy Fothergill <je...@gmail.com>.
Missed that in the help. Configured and working. Thanks
------ Original Message ------
From: "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org>
To: users@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Sent: 14/12/2017 09:20:33
Subject: Re: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
>Hi,
>
>On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Jeremy Fothergill
><je...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>...The email
>>header does have a List-Id which should be the means to do so but not
>>all
>>mail systems use it, Google Mail being an example....
>
>I'm using GMail for all my Apache lists, filtering works for me using
>this condition
>
> has the words: list:"users@netbeans.incubator.apache.org"
>
>IIRC the filter was created automatically using "filter messages like
>these".
>
>-Bertrand
Re: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 9:55 AM, Jeremy Fothergill
<je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...The email
> header does have a List-Id which should be the means to do so but not all
> mail systems use it, Google Mail being an example....
I'm using GMail for all my Apache lists, filtering works for me using
this condition
has the words: list:"users@netbeans.incubator.apache.org"
IIRC the filter was created automatically using "filter messages like these".
-Bertrand
Re: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
Posted by Wade Chandler <wa...@apache.org>.
Technically the "To" address is users@netbeans.incubator.apache.org, so if
all one wants is users filtered, they can do similar filtering with that.
This is what I do with Apache lists to manage my traffic. I believe one can
also subscribe in digest form.
Wade
On Dec 14, 2017 04:13, "Jeremy Fothergill" <je...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I have already replied about this issue, but will do so again. If there
> was a way to apply filters to the incoming email and automatically move it
> into a dedicated folder then this may solve some of these issues. The email
> header does have a List-Id which should be the means to do so but not all
> mail systems use it, Google Mail being an example. The old Netbeans list
> prefixed "[NBUSER]" to the subject allowing filtering to be applied. I see
> messages from GitBox have "[GitHub]" as a prefix so surely the same can be
> done for the Netbeans lists.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jeremy
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Lars Bruun-Hansen" <lb...@gmail.com>
> To: users@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Sent: 14/12/2017 07:31:52
> Subject: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
>
>
> Geerjan wrote
> > Meantime I will manually unsubscribe those who try to unsubscribe in
> this way.
>
>
>
> I've been in contact with some of these users. At least for some the issue
> is that they come from a really low-traffic mailing list from netbeans.org
> (like the announcement mailing list) and when they were told to migrate
> they were given only two choices, dev@ and users@. With a lot more
> traffic as a result. Personally I didn't consider this angle before now.
>
> For these users using the digest options may be more appropriate. And
> sometimes they just want to leave.
>
> In my off-list emails to these users I do the complete opposite of
> Geertjan. I'm trying to teach them how to solve such an issue generically
> [1]: try google, try looking at the header, try looking at the method you
> used for signing up, maybe a digest is better for you?, etc. This is not
> always well received. :-) .. so maybe Geertjan's approach is better.
> There's also sometimes a language barrier.
>
> The mailing list system used by Apache is ezmlm. Before the Apache
> transition, netbeans.org used sympa. Both of them support footers (in
> ezmlm it is called 'trailer') but the feature wasn't engaged in the old
> world (sympa), neither is it active now on ezmlm. As someone has already
> said such a feature is fragile because it won't work on base64 encoded
> messages or html messages. But ezmlm will abstain from adding the trailer
> if it thinks it is dangerous to do so.But at least the trailer will get
> onto some messages. ezmlm also offers other options such as automatically
> rejecting messages where the only text is "unsubscribe".
>
> I think the issue will die out by itself. Only a bit sad that we loose
> those users who have a genuine interest in NetBeans but are just
> overwhelmed by the traffic.
>
> /Lars
>
> [1] https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/teach+a+man+to+fish
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 7:15 AM, Ankit Singh <an...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Please unsubscribe me
>> On 14 Dec 2017 3:49 am, "John Muczynski" <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Thomas,
>>>
>>> Yup, I got a registration email that describes how to unsubscribe. But
>>> I personally know how to unsubscribe. In fact, I just forwarded the
>>> instructions to a couple lost souls who are trying to get off the list.
>>>
>>> I'm referring to the ongoing discussion about "Why are there so many
>>> emails with the subject unsubscribe?"
>>> My point is this: people are used to having an unsubscribe link, and
>>> replying "unsubscribe" and don't seem to be familiar with registration
>>> emails and the other particulars of the email server. That means the email
>>> server software isn't meeting the needs and expectations of the user, right?
>>>
>>> Kind Regards,
>>> Johnny
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Johnny Muczynski
>>> 734-262-2045 <(734)%20262-2045>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Thomas Kellerer <sh...@gmx.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Muczynski schrieb am 13.12.2017 um 18:50:
>>>>
>>>>> Here in the US, when I receive an email from some company -- say for
>>>>> example someone using MailChimp -- then at the bottom of the email
>>>>> there's a link named _*Unsubscribe*_
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> When you registered for this list, you got an email that also described
>>>> how to un-subscribe:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> To remove your address from the list, send a message to:
>>>>> <us...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
Re: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
Posted by Jeremy Fothergill <je...@gmail.com>.
I have already replied about this issue, but will do so again. If there
was a way to apply filters to the incoming email and automatically move
it into a dedicated folder then this may solve some of these issues. The
email header does have a List-Id which should be the means to do so but
not all mail systems use it, Google Mail being an example. The old
Netbeans list prefixed "[NBUSER]" to the subject allowing filtering to
be applied. I see messages from GitBox have "[GitHub]" as a prefix so
surely the same can be done for the Netbeans lists.
Thanks
Jeremy
------ Original Message ------
From: "Lars Bruun-Hansen" <lb...@gmail.com>
To: users@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Sent: 14/12/2017 07:31:52
Subject: Teach a man to fish (was: unsubscribe)
>
>Geerjan wrote
> > Meantime I will manually unsubscribe those who try to unsubscribe in
>this way.
>
>
>
>I've been in contact with some of these users. At least for some the
>issue is that they come from a really low-traffic mailing list from
>netbeans.org (like the announcement mailing list) and when they were
>told to migrate they were given only two choices, dev@ and users@. With
>a lot more traffic as a result. Personally I didn't consider this angle
>before now.
>
>For these users using the digest options may be more appropriate. And
>sometimes they just want to leave.
>
>In my off-list emails to these users I do the complete opposite of
>Geertjan. I'm trying to teach them how to solve such an issue
>generically [1]: try google, try looking at the header, try looking at
>the method you used for signing up, maybe a digest is better for you?,
>etc. This is not always well received. :-) .. so maybe Geertjan's
>approach is better. There's also sometimes a language barrier.
>
>The mailing list system used by Apache is ezmlm. Before the Apache
>transition, netbeans.org used sympa. Both of them support footers (in
>ezmlm it is called 'trailer') but the feature wasn't engaged in the old
>world (sympa), neither is it active now on ezmlm. As someone has
>already said such a feature is fragile because it won't work on base64
>encoded messages or html messages. But ezmlm will abstain from adding
>the trailer if it thinks it is dangerous to do so.But at least the
>trailer will get onto some messages. ezmlm also offers other options
>such as automatically rejecting messages where the only text is
>"unsubscribe".
>
>I think the issue will die out by itself. Only a bit sad that we loose
>those users who have a genuine interest in NetBeans but are just
>overwhelmed by the traffic.
>
>/Lars
>
>[1] https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/teach+a+man+to+fish
>
>
>
>On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 7:15 AM, Ankit Singh <an...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>Please unsubscribe me
>>
>>On 14 Dec 2017 3:49 am, "John Muczynski" <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Hi Thomas,
>>>
>>>Yup, I got a registration email that describes how to unsubscribe.
>>>But I personally know how to unsubscribe. In fact, I just forwarded
>>>the instructions to a couple lost souls who are trying to get off the
>>>list.
>>>
>>>I'm referring to the ongoing discussion about "Why are there so many
>>>emails with the subject unsubscribe?"
>>>My point is this: people are used to having an unsubscribe link, and
>>>replying "unsubscribe" and don't seem to be familiar with
>>>registration emails and the other particulars of the email server.
>>>That means the email server software isn't meeting the needs and
>>>expectations of the user, right?
>>>
>>>Kind Regards,
>>>Johnny
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Johnny Muczynski
>>>734-262-2045 <tel:(734)%20262-2045>
>>>
>>>On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Thomas Kellerer <sh...@gmx.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>>John Muczynski schrieb am 13.12.2017 um 18:50:
>>>>>Here in the US, when I receive an email from some company -- say
>>>>>for
>>>>>example someone using MailChimp -- then at the bottom of the email
>>>>>there's a link named _*Unsubscribe*_
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>When you registered for this list, you got an email that also
>>>>described how to un-subscribe:
>>>>
>>>>>To remove your address from the list, send a message to:
>>>>> <users-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>>>><ma...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>