Re: using jackrabbit to store email with meta-data

[Lars Heuer <he...@semagia.com>]

Hi Robert,

[...]
>> There has been discussion about generalizing the WebDAV implementation
>> in Jackrabbit. Some parts are already quite general, i.e. the
>> Jackrabbit WebDAV server already provides two alternate (file- and
>> item-based) views to the repository content. Prototyping an "email
>> view" would be an interesting challenge.

> great :-)

> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/2006JulSep/0016.html
[...]

Did you receive any feedback on this issue or are you working on
something like an e-mail WebDAV protocol?

Best regards,
Lars
-- 
http://www.semagia.com

Re: using jackrabbit to store email with meta-data

[robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On 8/9/06, Lars Heuer <he...@semagia.com> wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> [...]
> > one of the main reasons why i want to use webDAV is that it's RESTful.
> > IMAP and POP3 both suck for the problems i'm interested in because
> > they are not.
>
> Yes. But I just want to create a RESTful 'view' at IMAP / POP3.
> Nothing to edit / change, only view. :)

reading has some wrinkles that webDAV may have some solutions to.

returning complete mail messages as an xml document is fine when the
whole message wants to be rendered for display. it's common with email
just to want to access some limited headers or properties or that
email. for example, an email client will typically display subject,
date, sender and so on as a summary and then only the whole message
later.

returning the whole message as xml is likely to be a particular issue
when handling MIME emails with large attachments.

so, i'd say it's pretty important that the meta-data is available
without having to download and parse a complete document.

> I think that is possible with the 'legacy' protocols. :)

probably so given reasonable wrappers are available for these
protocols (javamail and alternatives).

> > IMHO email is basically authoring and so is a good match for webDAV.
> > i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the way you planned to map
> > common email operations to RESTful operations.
>
> Well, the RESTful email system is a long term project and I don't have
> investigated much time to think about RESTful operations. Maybe Jérôme
> (the deveoloper of Restlet) has investigated more thought on it.
>
> The complete RESTful e-mail system is just an idea. I want my RESTful
> views first. :)

the great thing about using webDAV is that the writing comes for free :-)

> [...]
> >> XML For Digital Preservation: XML Implementation Options for E-Mails
> >> <http://www.digitaleduurzaamheid.nl/bibliotheek/docs/email-xml-imp.pdf>
>
> > what are the advantages of using xml?
>
> I think it might be easier to transform XML into another format than
> the plain e-mail text.

true

on of the interesting questions is the right level of granuarity...

> What do you want to achive with your project?

i don't really have just one project or one goal :-)

i want to be able to add meta-data (tag in web2.0 palence) emails
(better solution to the problem most email clients now solve by
filtering). i'd also like to be able to share these tags over
internet.

> Leave IMAP/POP3 completely out?

IMAP is a difficult protocol to work with and build on. it's not
RESTful. POP3 is mostly used as temporary storage. one interest is
more flexible and sophisticated email servers which are not built on
either.

that's not to say that adapter for those protocols wouldn't be useful
just that it's not my itch right now.

- robert

Re: using jackrabbit to store email with meta-data

[Lars Heuer <he...@semagia.com>]

Hi Robert,

[...]
> one of the main reasons why i want to use webDAV is that it's RESTful.
> IMAP and POP3 both suck for the problems i'm interested in because
> they are not.

Yes. But I just want to create a RESTful 'view' at IMAP / POP3.
Nothing to edit / change, only view. :) I think that is possible with
the 'legacy' protocols. :)

> IMHO email is basically authoring and so is a good match for webDAV.
> i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the way you planned to map
> common email operations to RESTful operations.

Well, the RESTful email system is a long term project and I don't have
investigated much time to think about RESTful operations. Maybe Jérôme
(the deveoloper of Restlet) has investigated more thought on it.

The complete RESTful e-mail system is just an idea. I want my RESTful
views first. :)

[...]
>> XML For Digital Preservation: XML Implementation Options for E-Mails
>> <http://www.digitaleduurzaamheid.nl/bibliotheek/docs/email-xml-imp.pdf>

> what are the advantages of using xml?

I think it might be easier to transform XML into another format than
the plain e-mail text.

What do you want to achive with your project? Leave IMAP/POP3
completely out?

Best regards,
Lars
-- 
http://www.semagia.com

Re: Re: using jackrabbit to store email with meta-data

[robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On 8/7/06, Lars Heuer <he...@semagia.com> wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> [...]
> >> Additionally I am interested in a good XML format for msgs.
>
> [...]
> > i suspect that the hardest part of the problem will be defining
> > exactly that good means in this context. any initial thoughts?
>
> We've collected some resources here:
> <http://restlet.tigris.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=138>

aHa!

i see the connection now :-)

one of the main reasons why i want to use webDAV is that it's RESTful.
IMAP and POP3 both suck for the problems i'm interested in because
they are not.

IMHO email is basically authoring and so is a good match for webDAV.
i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the way you planned to map
common email operations to RESTful operations.

> The most advanced solution I am aware of is documented here:
>
> XML For Digital Preservation: XML Implementation Options for E-Mails
> <http://www.digitaleduurzaamheid.nl/bibliotheek/docs/email-xml-imp.pdf>

what are the advantages of using xml?

> >> Well, I want to use Restlet (http://www.restlet.org/) and connect it
> >> to a 'normal' POP3 / IMAP4 account a provide a restful view on it.
>
> > probably the easiest way to do this would be by using javamail to
> > provide a transparent layer on top of those protocols.
>
> Yes that are also my thoughts. Not sure if JavaMail is the best lib,
> though. I am evaluating Ristretto
> <http://www.columbamail.org/drupal/?q=node/18>. It is a subproject of
> Columba, a Java e-mail client (<http://www.columbamail.org>).

thanks for the URL - looks good. i'll have to take a deeper look...

javamail has the advantage of being written by committee. they cover
all the bases of existing email systems but their approach is only
extensible within their chosen paradigm. i found it very worthwhile to
review the specification.

- robert

Re: using jackrabbit to store email with meta-data

[Lars Heuer <he...@semagia.com>]

Hi Robert,

[...]
>> Additionally I am interested in a good XML format for msgs.

[...]
> i suspect that the hardest part of the problem will be defining
> exactly that good means in this context. any initial thoughts?

We've collected some resources here:
<http://restlet.tigris.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=138>

The most advanced solution I am aware of is documented here:

XML For Digital Preservation: XML Implementation Options for E-Mails
<http://www.digitaleduurzaamheid.nl/bibliotheek/docs/email-xml-imp.pdf>

>> Well, I want to use Restlet (http://www.restlet.org/) and connect it
>> to a 'normal' POP3 / IMAP4 account a provide a restful view on it.

> probably the easiest way to do this would be by using javamail to
> provide a transparent layer on top of those protocols.

Yes that are also my thoughts. Not sure if JavaMail is the best lib,
though. I am evaluating Ristretto
<http://www.columbamail.org/drupal/?q=node/18>. It is a subproject of
Columba, a Java e-mail client (<http://www.columbamail.org>).

Best regards,
Lars
-- 
http://www.semagia.com

Re: using jackrabbit to store email with meta-data

[robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On 8/4/06, Lars Heuer <he...@semagia.com> wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> [...]
> > are you interested in email webDAV too?
>
> Sure. :)
> Additionally I am interested in a good XML format for msgs.

i suspect that this may be a interesting for MIME messages :-)

javamail may be one place to start (think about xml mappings for MimeMessage).

i suspect that the hardest part of the problem will be defining
exactly that good means in this context. any initial thoughts?

> Well, I want to use Restlet (http://www.restlet.org/) and connect it
> to a 'normal' POP3 / IMAP4 account a provide a restful view on it.

probably the easiest way to do this would be by using javamail to
provide a transparent layer on top of those protocols.

> My approach is a bit different but I think your approach and my
> approach have much in common, so I am interested in your efforts.
> I don't have any code yet, only the idea. :)

i now have the naive implementation working. it's been very useful in
making me think about the problem.

> I'd be happy if you keep me / and or the list informed about the your
> progress.

ditto :-)

- robert

Re: using jackrabbit to store email with meta-data

[Lars Heuer <he...@semagia.com>]

Hi Robert,

[...]
> are you interested in email webDAV too?

Sure. :)
Additionally I am interested in a good XML format for msgs.
Well, I want to use Restlet (http://www.restlet.org/) and connect it
to a 'normal' POP3 / IMAP4 account a provide a restful view on it.
My approach is a bit different but I think your approach and my
approach have much in common, so I am interested in your efforts.
I don't have any code yet, only the idea. :)

I'd be happy if you keep me / and or the list informed about the your
progress.

Best regards,
Lars
-- 
http://www.semagia.com

Re: using jackrabbit to store email with meta-data

[robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On 8/3/06, Lars Heuer <he...@semagia.com> wrote:
> Hi Robert,

hi lars

> [...]
> >> There has been discussion about generalizing the WebDAV implementation
> >> in Jackrabbit. Some parts are already quite general, i.e. the
> >> Jackrabbit WebDAV server already provides two alternate (file- and
> >> item-based) views to the repository content. Prototyping an "email
> >> view" would be an interesting challenge.
>
> > great :-)
>
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/2006JulSep/0016.html
> [...]
>
> Did you receive any feedback on this issue

all the feedback i needed :-)

real problems and implementations are the way to go so that's the way i'm going

i've taken read through the jukatan data model (which looks useful)
but i'm doing my best to forget it for now so that i can learn from my
own mistakes. i plan to triangulation a little later.

> or are you working on something like an e-mail WebDAV protocol?

indirectly, yes

i'm taking a look at naive implementations (but there's a ton of
documentation that i need to write up for the incubator so it's been
going slow)

i've been playing around with a mini-project using jackrabbit and
james to store and analyse the incubator mailing lists. (which i other
uses for.) i should have it working this weekend. it's given me some
more ideas for new mini-projects (maybe a javamail service
implementation using jackrabbit or a james email store which uses
jackrabbit).

are you interested in email webDAV too?

- robert