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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by __matthewHawthorne <ma...@phreaker.net> on 2003/10/30 01:07:31 UTC
[all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Great idea, but I'm not sure how much time and effort it would take to
make it happen. There's nothing like going away for a week and
accumulating 500 cvs commit messages in your inbox.
I believe that codehaus.org does:
${project}-dev for developers
${project}-user for users
${project}-scm for commit messages
Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> What about moving the cvs messages to a commons-cvs@jakarta.apache.org
> mailing list ? I guess almost everyone here is filtering them anyway.
> Those interested in the cvs notifications could subscribe to the
> specific list.
>
> Emmanuel
>
>
> Hernan Silberman wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for a mailing list specific to the commons-configuration
>> sandbox project. The link from the project page led me to sign up to
>> this list:
>>
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/configuration/mail-lists.html
>>
>> Just wondering if that's right, I wasn't expecting to get an email
>> anytime there's a CVS commit on any commons file.
>>
>> thanks...
>> Hernan
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:38:55 -0800
Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> If you've got NNTP access, consider reading the groups through a
> newsgroup interface. For example, the news server at <http://gmane.org>
> mirrors many mailing lists, including this one (news host is
> news.gmane.org, newsgroup is "gmane.comp.jakarta.commons.devel").
Yep :)
Also, you all can subscribe to "Daily Digest" lists of user/dev
of Commons (and Tomcat :-).
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#Commons
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#Tomcat
(I modified/updated this page and committed a little while ago :-D
Happy mailing!
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
__matthewHawthorne wrote:
> gmane.org is great, that's how I access the apache mailing lists. A
> good filtering technique is to mark all messages as read, except for
> projects that you're interested in.
>
> I apologize for going off topic, but has anyone experienced delays
> when sending with gmane? My sent messages show up almost instantly on
> commons-dev and commons-user, but on the maven lists it takes 15
> minutes or so, and on the ant lists it sometimes takes up to 12
> hours. Is there a known reason for the delay?
>
The most likely reason is that they're going through a moderator. In
the case of COMMONS-DEV (where I am the moderator) I've got you on the
"allow" list that allows postings through even though you're not
directly subscribed (which I tend to do when unsubscribed folks continue
to send on-topic postings :-).
Craig
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Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by __matthewHawthorne <ma...@phreaker.net>.
gmane.org is great, that's how I access the apache mailing lists. A
good filtering technique is to mark all messages as read, except for
projects that you're interested in.
I apologize for going off topic, but has anyone experienced delays when
sending with gmane? My sent messages show up almost instantly on
commons-dev and commons-user, but on the maven lists it takes 15 minutes
or so, and on the ant lists it sometimes takes up to 12 hours. Is there
a known reason for the delay?
Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
>
>> It seems some prefer to keep the commit messages in the list, and
>> others prefer a clean list with just the discussions. So what about
>> this :
>>
>> - commons-dev : discussions + cvs messages
>> - commons-cvs : only the cvs messages
>> - commons-talk: only the discussions
>>
>> or maybe easier to set up :
>>
>> - commons-dev : only the discussions
>> - commons-cvs : only the cvs messages
>> - commons-commiters : discussions + cvs messages (this list is
>> subscribed to commons-dev and commons-cvs with a Reply-To header set
>> to commons-dev)
>>
>> This would suit to everyone.
>>
>> Emmanuel
>>
> -1. Doing things this way (and it's been this way for several years now
> on nearly every Jakarta project) is a critical success factor in
> assuring the quality and popularity of the software created here.
>
> Developer lists are for the people developing the packages, and those
> folks need to see the commits at all times in order to understand what
> is changing, in addition to their responsibility to review commits at
> all times. Because it's open source, we're perfectly happy for
> non-developers to listen in, offer suggestions, and do their own reviews
> as well -- but a dev list is the fundamental working tool for the people
> actually developing the code. It therefore needs to be set up to meet
> *their* needs.
>
> If you want discussions and conversations about packages, without the
> commit messages, that's what the user list is for. On most user lists,
> the developers hang out as well, and will answer questions about what's
> coming up in addition to how to use the package.
>
> If you want to see isolated discussions for a particular commons
> package, encourage the developers for that package to create their own
> specialized -dev and -user lists, like the httpclient folks did. (I
> personally wouldn't mind if the [math] folks did that, but it's totally
> up to them -- I've got a filter for their traffic, which includes a
> whole lot more discussion than it does CVS commits, by the way :-).
>
> If you just want to lurk on the developer lists, but still reduce the
> message count, subscribe in digest mode instead. Then, you'll get all
> the messages for each day in one single message instead of individually.
>
> If you've got NNTP access, consider reading the groups through a
> newsgroup interface. For example, the news server at <http://gmane.org>
> mirrors many mailing lists, including this one (news host is
> news.gmane.org, newsgroup is "gmane.comp.jakarta.commons.devel").
>
> But, at the end of the day, if you are using a mail reader that can't
> filter, get a new mail reader. I'm sorry, but it's hard to be
> sympathetic with that argument in this day and age.
>
> Craig
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Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> It seems some prefer to keep the commit messages in the list, and
> others prefer a clean list with just the discussions. So what about
> this :
>
> - commons-dev : discussions + cvs messages
> - commons-cvs : only the cvs messages
> - commons-talk: only the discussions
>
> or maybe easier to set up :
>
> - commons-dev : only the discussions
> - commons-cvs : only the cvs messages
> - commons-commiters : discussions + cvs messages (this list is
> subscribed to commons-dev and commons-cvs with a Reply-To header set
> to commons-dev)
>
> This would suit to everyone.
>
> Emmanuel
>
-1. Doing things this way (and it's been this way for several years now
on nearly every Jakarta project) is a critical success factor in
assuring the quality and popularity of the software created here.
Developer lists are for the people developing the packages, and those
folks need to see the commits at all times in order to understand what
is changing, in addition to their responsibility to review commits at
all times. Because it's open source, we're perfectly happy for
non-developers to listen in, offer suggestions, and do their own reviews
as well -- but a dev list is the fundamental working tool for the people
actually developing the code. It therefore needs to be set up to meet
*their* needs.
If you want discussions and conversations about packages, without the
commit messages, that's what the user list is for. On most user lists,
the developers hang out as well, and will answer questions about what's
coming up in addition to how to use the package.
If you want to see isolated discussions for a particular commons
package, encourage the developers for that package to create their own
specialized -dev and -user lists, like the httpclient folks did. (I
personally wouldn't mind if the [math] folks did that, but it's totally
up to them -- I've got a filter for their traffic, which includes a
whole lot more discussion than it does CVS commits, by the way :-).
If you just want to lurk on the developer lists, but still reduce the
message count, subscribe in digest mode instead. Then, you'll get all
the messages for each day in one single message instead of individually.
If you've got NNTP access, consider reading the groups through a
newsgroup interface. For example, the news server at <http://gmane.org>
mirrors many mailing lists, including this one (news host is
news.gmane.org, newsgroup is "gmane.comp.jakarta.commons.devel").
But, at the end of the day, if you are using a mail reader that can't
filter, get a new mail reader. I'm sorry, but it's hard to be
sympathetic with that argument in this day and age.
Craig
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Re: [all] new list for cvs com mits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by Emmanuel Bourg <e....@cross-systems.com>.
Filtering is not the perfect solution. I get a notification every time i
receive a message from commons-dev, most of the time i open my mail
program to discover that actually there is nothing new to read because
it was a filtered cvs commit message. It's quite annoying. And filtering
doesn't save the bandwidth.
Also you cannot filter mail archives,
http://www.mail-archive.com/commons-dev@jakarta.apache.org is unreadable
for people not subscribed following the discussions here.
Emmanuel
David Graham wrote:
>
> More lists just adds confusion. Messages can easily be filtered out if
> you don't want to see them. IMO, a better solution would be to identify
> components that generate the most traffic and give them separate dev
> lists.
>
> David
RE: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by Eric Pugh <ep...@upstate.com>.
I think the amount of traffic will reduce when hivemind moves to it's own
list.. There may be others that should move as well? Often though it is a
lot of traffic for one component, and then that winds down and moves to
another.. I think making lots of lists will just fragment the commons sense
of community and spirit..
Eric
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Graham [mailto:grahamdavid1980@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 3:02 PM
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List
> Subject: Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re:
> commons-configuration)
>
>
>
> --- Emmanuel Bourg <e....@cross-systems.com> wrote:
> > It seems some prefer to keep the commit messages in the
> list, and others
> >
> > prefer a clean list with just the discussions. So what about this :
> >
> > - commons-dev : discussions + cvs messages
> > - commons-cvs : only the cvs messages
> > - commons-talk: only the discussions
> >
> > or maybe easier to set up :
> >
> > - commons-dev : only the discussions
> > - commons-cvs : only the cvs messages
> > - commons-commiters : discussions + cvs messages (this list is
> > subscribed to commons-dev and commons-cvs with a Reply-To
> header set to
> > commons-dev)
> >
> > This would suit to everyone.
>
> More lists just adds confusion. Messages can easily be
> filtered out if
> you don't want to see them. IMO, a better solution would be
> to identify
> components that generate the most traffic and give them separate dev
> lists.
>
> David
>
> >
> > Emmanuel
> >
> >
>
> > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/x-pkcs7-signature name=smime.p7s
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
>
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Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by David Graham <gr...@yahoo.com>.
--- Emmanuel Bourg <e....@cross-systems.com> wrote:
> It seems some prefer to keep the commit messages in the list, and others
>
> prefer a clean list with just the discussions. So what about this :
>
> - commons-dev : discussions + cvs messages
> - commons-cvs : only the cvs messages
> - commons-talk: only the discussions
>
> or maybe easier to set up :
>
> - commons-dev : only the discussions
> - commons-cvs : only the cvs messages
> - commons-commiters : discussions + cvs messages (this list is
> subscribed to commons-dev and commons-cvs with a Reply-To header set to
> commons-dev)
>
> This would suit to everyone.
More lists just adds confusion. Messages can easily be filtered out if
you don't want to see them. IMO, a better solution would be to identify
components that generate the most traffic and give them separate dev
lists.
David
>
> Emmanuel
>
>
> ATTACHMENT part 2 application/x-pkcs7-signature name=smime.p7s
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Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by Emmanuel Bourg <e....@cross-systems.com>.
It seems some prefer to keep the commit messages in the list, and others
prefer a clean list with just the discussions. So what about this :
- commons-dev : discussions + cvs messages
- commons-cvs : only the cvs messages
- commons-talk: only the discussions
or maybe easier to set up :
- commons-dev : only the discussions
- commons-cvs : only the cvs messages
- commons-commiters : discussions + cvs messages (this list is
subscribed to commons-dev and commons-cvs with a Reply-To header set to
commons-dev)
This would suit to everyone.
Emmanuel
Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by Emmanuel Bourg <e....@cross-systems.com>.
I think the mailing list guidelines at
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#Commons could include at least
a warning like some other lists at Jakarta. Something like "Subscribers
to this list will also get notices of every CVS checkin of new or
changed code modules".
Emmanuel
Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 01:43:45 +0100
(Subject: Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration))
Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> I agree that contributors should keep an eye on CVS commits, but a
> separate list doesn't prevent them from doing so. That's less confusing
> for newcomers like Hernan, reduce the noise for the non commiter folks
> here just interested in the discussions, and makes the archive more
> readable.
>
> Emmanuel
Yep. This can be simply done.
1. Stop the "-cvs to -dev" forwarding (infrastructure@ and apmail@ issue)
2. Copy the participants addresses of -dev list to -cvs list
(infrastructure@ and apmail@ issue)
3. Anyone who do not want the cvs commit message can unsub from -cvs.
(Anyone can see the message trailer information of each mails:
"how to unsubscribe")
4. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#commons should be
re-written.... Maybe :-)
5. Someone might announce these (#1 - #4) to commons-dev@jakarta
That's it! :-)
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
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RE: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I would be -1 on making this change for any Jakarta project that I'm an
> active participant in. It's more than a "should" ... committers have a
> *responsibility* to review commits from other committers.
+1
--- Noel
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Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> I agree that contributors should keep an eye on CVS commits, but a
> separate list doesn't prevent them from doing so. That's less
> confusing for newcomers like Hernan, reduce the noise for the non
> commiter folks here just interested in the discussions, and makes the
> archive more readable.
>
I would be -1 on making this change for any Jakarta project that I'm an
active participant in. It's more than a "should" ... committers have a
*responsibility* to review commits from other committers. The "should"
is for non-committers that want to know what is going on, or see if
their bugfix has been incorporated in the nightly builds, or ...
Other notes:
* Filtering the CVS commits (either all of them or by package) is a trivial
exercise, because the subject line includes everythng you need.
* Discussions that are not intertwined with the CVS commits are
welcome on the COMMONS-USER maililng list.
> Emmanuel
Craig
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Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by Emmanuel Bourg <e....@cross-systems.com>.
I agree that contributors should keep an eye on CVS commits, but a
separate list doesn't prevent them from doing so. That's less confusing
for newcomers like Hernan, reduce the noise for the non commiter folks
here just interested in the discussions, and makes the archive more
readable.
Emmanuel
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> CVS commit messages here usually go to $project-cvs@. That address is
> directed to $project-dev@ because developers are expected to maintain
> oversight of the CVS. The problem with Jakarta Commons is that all projects
> are on one list. If there is too much traffic for a given subproject, a
> separate list, e.g., commons-dev-httpclient@jakarta.apache.org, can be
> spawned.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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>
>
>
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RE: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
CVS commit messages here usually go to $project-cvs@. That address is
directed to $project-dev@ because developers are expected to maintain
oversight of the CVS. The problem with Jakarta Commons is that all projects
are on one list. If there is too much traffic for a given subproject, a
separate list, e.g., commons-dev-httpclient@jakarta.apache.org, can be
spawned.
--- Noel
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Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by David Graham <gr...@yahoo.com>.
--- Todd Jonker <tv...@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 10/29/03 7:19 PM, grahamdavid1980@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Simple email filtering rules help
> > to get rid of messages you don't want to see.
>
> This recommendation doesn't help those of us who have to use lame-ass
> Web
> mail interfaces during the workday.
I've managed to make my free Yahoo! account filter messages into different
folders.
> It's incredibly tedious to have to
> page
> and delete the commit messages that flow through every day.
This is a result of so many projects using commons-dev, not the commit
messages. As other have pointed out, the commits *must* be followed by
the project team on the dev list. Dev list discussions are often prompted
by replies to commit messages. Separating the commits to some forgotten
side list is the wrong approach.
David
>
> As someone who is a non-committer but likes to keep up with commons-dev,
> such a change would make it MUCH easier for me to follow the discussion
> threads. This in turn makes it more likely that I'll actually implement
> changes for submission to the projects. As it is, I've been very close
> to
> unsubscribing from commons-dev just because the volume is overwheleming.
>
> .T.
>
>
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>
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Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re:
commons-configuration)
Posted by Todd Jonker <tv...@pobox.com>.
On 10/29/03 7:19 PM, grahamdavid1980@yahoo.com wrote:
> Simple email filtering rules help
> to get rid of messages you don't want to see.
This recommendation doesn't help those of us who have to use lame-ass Web
mail interfaces during the workday. It's incredibly tedious to have to page
and delete the commit messages that flow through every day.
As someone who is a non-committer but likes to keep up with commons-dev,
such a change would make it MUCH easier for me to follow the discussion
threads. This in turn makes it more likely that I'll actually implement
changes for submission to the projects. As it is, I've been very close to
unsubscribing from commons-dev just because the volume is overwheleming.
.T.
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Re: [all] new list for cvs commits? (was Re: commons-configuration)
Posted by David Graham <gr...@yahoo.com>.
It makes sense for the commit messages to be delivered to the dev list
because they directly relate to the development of the project. The
problem with commons-dev is that many different projects use it so the
volume is higher than other dev lists. Simple email filtering rules help
to get rid of messages you don't want to see.
David
--- __matthewHawthorne <ma...@phreaker.net> wrote:
> Great idea, but I'm not sure how much time and effort it would take to
> make it happen. There's nothing like going away for a week and
> accumulating 500 cvs commit messages in your inbox.
>
>
> I believe that codehaus.org does:
>
> ${project}-dev for developers
> ${project}-user for users
> ${project}-scm for commit messages
>
>
>
>
> Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
>
> > What about moving the cvs messages to a commons-cvs@jakarta.apache.org
>
> > mailing list ? I guess almost everyone here is filtering them anyway.
> > Those interested in the cvs notifications could subscribe to the
> > specific list.
> >
> > Emmanuel
> >
> >
> > Hernan Silberman wrote:
> >
> >> I'm looking for a mailing list specific to the commons-configuration
> >> sandbox project. The link from the project page led me to sign up to
>
> >> this list:
> >>
> >>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/configuration/mail-lists.html
> >>
> >> Just wondering if that's right, I wasn't expecting to get an email
> >> anytime there's a CVS commit on any commons file.
> >>
> >> thanks...
> >> Hernan
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
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>
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