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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> on 2014/12/22 14:21:41 UTC
P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects
that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow,
that new projects want to enter the ASF because they
approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating
projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we
have graduated projects which are more interested in
simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and
then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the
aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache
brand so valuable and noteworthy.
Maybe we need to change the proposal guide.
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by jonathon <to...@gmail.com>.
On 23/12/14 22:25, Ted Dunning wrote:
> I think that the time was well spent, but one of the three mentors was
> total AWOL during this process. Being absent during crucial discussions
If a mentor can't show up at the beginning of the project, when things
are being discussed, why is s/he a mentor in the first place?
I can sympathize with the mentor that starts out, genuinely useful to a
podling, but after several months, suffers side-effects from life, and
consequently has to limit their interaction with the podling.
>it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse
themselves for lack of helping.
Unless I've completely misunderstood The Apache Way, a mentor that
doesn't help, and does not recuse themselves, is a mentor that is
demonstrating their despoilment of The Apache Way.
As such, they should be thrown off the list of mentors, regardless of
the political consequences.
jonathon
* English - detected
* English
* English
<javascript:void(0);>
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 12:33 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse
>> themselves for lack of helping....
>
> Maybe we need to add "no politics allowed" to our collection of slogans ;-)
I thought that Apache Way had "no assholes allowed" policy, which should
cover that ;-)
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 12/24/14, 2:43 AM, "Upayavira" <uv...@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
>But if someone sees mentorship as some kind of status, and you politely
>ask them to quit as a mentor through complete inactivity, the polite
>approach might not yield results given their attachment to the apparent
>status.
>
>In the end, in such scenarios, it'll take an impartial rule to resolve
>that sort of situation.
IMO, mentors can “go bad” not just for inactivity. If you try to put in a
minimum activity rule, some mentor can just +1 everything or hastily reply
without fully understanding issues and waste people’s time. At the
formation of a podling, the new PPMC members simply should be given
instructions on when and how to “tolerate” a bad mentor, and when and how
to seek action from the IPMC.
Flex started off with 4 mentors but one became inactive. With 3 good
mentors, the 4th being inactive had no effect and could essentially be
ignored. Should that have been reported somewhere? Certainly it should
be in the quarterly reports if it is causing a problem (after polite
requests to engage the mentors fail). It could be added to the graduation
proposal. We simply did not credit the inactive mentor on the team page
on the website.
-Alex
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
But if someone sees mentorship as some kind of status, and you politely
ask them to quit as a mentor through complete inactivity, the polite
approach might not yield results given their attachment to the apparent
status.
In the end, in such scenarios, it'll take an impartial rule to resolve
that sort of situation.
Upayavira
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014, at 03:33 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse
> > themselves for lack of helping....
>
> Maybe we need to add "no politics allowed" to our collection of slogans
> ;-)
>
> If someone's not active as a mentor, it's perfectly fine to politely
> ask them if they intend to become active again. If's also fine for
> mentors to be temporarily inactive, they should just let others know
> so that replacements can be arranged.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org
>> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse
>> > themselves for lack of helping....
>>
>> Maybe we need to add "no politics allowed" to our collection of slogans ;-)
>>
>> If someone's not active as a mentor, it's perfectly fine to politely
>> ask them if they intend to become active again. If's also fine for
>> mentors to be temporarily inactive, they should just let others know
>> so that replacements can be arranged.
>
>
> Hmm...
>
> sure.
>
> Btw... Chris Mattmann's automated tick detector would easily detect the
> situation I was referring to.
>
> Who would like to send such an email to mentors who have missed, say, all
> of the sign-offs next to their name for a period of 4 months?
I am planning to start doing that as part of IPMC reporting process. See the
other thread.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 12/24/14, 9:23 AM, "Ted Dunning" <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Who would like to send such an email to mentors who have missed, say, all
>of the sign-offs next to their name for a period of 4 months?
I would do it if I was on the PPMC of a podling and lack of sign-offs was
affecting progress. There will often be obstacles to progress in a
podling and project’s life and making sure the podling has people
passionate enough to deal with uncomfortable situations is probably a good
thing.
In fact, late in the Flex podling’s life, we did have trouble getting
enough a third IPMC vote because our mentors got a bit busy with other
stuff. We had 3 good mentors (out of 4) that had voted on prior
incubating releases which made it easier to get the IPMC approval vote.
But this time we couldn’t get a third vote so we pestered the mentors who
hadn’t voted. One never responded and the other eventually responded that
they were just too busy and we would need to get that 3rd vote from the
larger IPMC which we did.
As long as there is a clear process for a PPMC to get unstuck, you
probably don’t need to worry about rules about activity levels and
oversight from the IPMC.
-Alex
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse
> > themselves for lack of helping....
>
> Maybe we need to add "no politics allowed" to our collection of slogans ;-)
>
> If someone's not active as a mentor, it's perfectly fine to politely
> ask them if they intend to become active again. If's also fine for
> mentors to be temporarily inactive, they should just let others know
> so that replacements can be arranged.
Hmm...
sure.
Btw... Chris Mattmann's automated tick detector would easily detect the
situation I was referring to.
Who would like to send such an email to mentors who have missed, say, all
of the sign-offs next to their name for a period of 4 months?
RE: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Two thoughts ...
-- replying to --
From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacretaz@apache.org]
Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 00:33
To: Incubator General
Subject: Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse
> themselves for lack of helping....
Maybe we need to add "no politics allowed" to our collection of slogans ;-)
If someone's not active as a mentor, it's perfectly fine to politely
ask them if they intend to become active again. If's also fine for
mentors to be temporarily inactive, they should just let others know
so that replacements can be arranged.
<orcmid>
One valuable contribution of a mentor is demonstration of accountability.
By that I mean "providing an account" (what accountants do), not the
common notion of something to do with obligation and duty.
Mentors in their interactions with PPMCs can provide certainty with
regard to their own presence by being visible and indicating when they
are unavailable. Mentors should not be mysterious.
With regard to this general concern about status-seeking, perhaps it
would be useful to have mentor apprentices who themselves are being
coached (off-list) and who are discouraged from serving on multiple
PPMCs until they have demonstrated consistency. One could go so far
as have PPMCs rate their mentors (since measures need to come from
somewhere). I offer this only as identifying an area to think about.
Being willing and consistent at demonstrating involvement and being
available needs some form of encouragement and also accountability.
</orcmid>
-Bertrand
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:25 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse
> themselves for lack of helping....
Maybe we need to add "no politics allowed" to our collection of slogans ;-)
If someone's not active as a mentor, it's perfectly fine to politely
ask them if they intend to become active again. If's also fine for
mentors to be temporarily inactive, they should just let others know
so that replacements can be arranged.
-Bertrand
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> > I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects
> > that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
> > Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow,
> > that new projects want to enter the ASF because they
> > approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating
> > projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we
> > have graduated projects which are more interested in
> > simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and
> > then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the
> > aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache
> > brand so valuable and noteworthy.
> >
> > Maybe we need to change the proposal guide.
>
> This wasn't well-received 4.5 years ago[1] :/ I still think it's a
> more valuable question than the "brand" one - which is likely what
> brought them here in the first place. Good luck...
>
One comment from that older thread is that this is more of a
mentor/champion question than a podling question because the incoming
project is not so likely to even know enough to answer the Apache Way
question intelligently.
With a recent project proposal, I spent a week editing a shared document
containing the proposal with the project leaders. The goal was to help
them understand where incubation was going to take them and what was really
important about the proposal.
I think that the time was well spent, but one of the three mentors was
total AWOL during this process. Being absent during crucial discussions
like that really says I-don't-care more than almost anything else I can
think of. With just a little bit of that, the new project is likely to
assume that they don't care about what Apache says either.
Of course, it isn't politic to ask a high profile mentor to recuse
themselves for lack of helping. So we wind up with mentors in name only
who like to get their names on projects but never both even to read the
project reports much less actually do any mentoring.
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects
> that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
> Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow,
> that new projects want to enter the ASF because they
> approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating
> projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we
> have graduated projects which are more interested in
> simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and
> then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the
> aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache
> brand so valuable and noteworthy.
>
> Maybe we need to change the proposal guide.
This wasn't well-received 4.5 years ago[1] :/ I still think it's a
more valuable question than the "brand" one - which is likely what
brought them here in the first place. Good luck...
--tim
[1] - http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201005.mbox/%3CAANLkTikxHpvPaqHeQNA02ptmiX8lqWwjQznBAY9lCLYI@mail.gmail.com%3E
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
> On Dec 23, 2014, at 1:17 PM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/22/14, 10:35 AM, "Louis Suárez-Potts" <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>> On 22 Dec 2014, at 11:29, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Aren't there loads and loads of presos, webinars, slides
>>> etc from various ApacheCons and other FOSS conf's which
>>> detailed the Apache Way?
>>
>>
>>
>> These would be where?
>
> It occurred to me that if it takes presos, webinars and slides, maybe it
> needs repackaging into mottos, slogans and elevator speeches. My son just
> joined Cub Scouts and I’ve found it interesting in that they are also
> trying to teach a new way of thinking but have it boiled down into
> something that 7-year-olds can absorb.
>
In http://www.slideshare.net/jimjag/code-community-and-open-source , for
example, slide 23 kind of describes it.
Also, just do: http://www.slideshare.net/search/slideshow?searchfrom=header&q=apache+way
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 12/22/14, 10:35 AM, "Louis Suárez-Potts" <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 22 Dec 2014, at 11:29, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> wrote:
>>
>> Aren't there loads and loads of presos, webinars, slides
>> etc from various ApacheCons and other FOSS conf's which
>> detailed the Apache Way?
>
>
>
>These would be where?
It occurred to me that if it takes presos, webinars and slides, maybe it
needs repackaging into mottos, slogans and elevator speeches. My son just
joined Cub Scouts and I’ve found it interesting in that they are also
trying to teach a new way of thinking but have it boiled down into
something that 7-year-olds can absorb.
Apache has “community over code”, but needs better messaging of what it
means.
Still, mottos, slogans and elevator speeches are promotional in nature.
Instead of trying to tell folks not to copy past proposals and make them
guess what their answers should be, it might be better to have proposers
make sure they have enough folks who will sign some other commitment
letter that contains the “fine print” of what is expected of them as a
PMC member or project in order to become a TLP. IOW, if the “how” is
non-negotiable, tell folks up front.
Here’s some of what I think might go on such a document:
-Apache requires a relatively low set of requirements for folks to become
committers.
-Apache requires that you track the ownership and licensing of every line
of source code. There are customers, especially large corporations, who
will not use your product without assurances that they know the licensing
involved. If you don’t think any of your customers will be like this, you
may not want to become an Apache project and take on the overhead of
tracking this. Feel free to use the Apache License for your code anyway.
-Apache requires that you create releases entirely of source code. If
your customers will not want to use your product by building it up from
source code, you can distribute pre-compiled versions but they are not
releases.
-Apache requires that you maintain a couple of legal documents as part of
your releases. Each project should have at least one member interested in
legal matters and folks on the mailing list willing to put up with
legal-oriented discussions.
-By becoming a PMC member, you are becoming an agent of a corporation with
certain responsibilities and duties to the corporation. Your vote to
approve a release is as an agent of the corporation approving the legal
correctness of the source code, not just whether you think the code is
bug-free enough to ship.
-Apache requires that your project organizes itself without hierarchy.
There are committers and non-committers, but all committers have equal
access to all of the source code. If you don’t know the committer
candidate well enough to trust them not to mess with stuff they shouldn’t,
don’t accept them as a committer or make sure you have the time to work
with them after.
-Apache requires that no individual or corporation has undue influence
over the development or decision-making of a project.
-Alex
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 22 Dec 2014, at 11:29, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> wrote:
>
> Aren't there loads and loads of presos, webinars, slides
> etc from various ApacheCons and other FOSS conf's which
> detailed the Apache Way?
These would be where? And, if we don’t already have a “place” for them (including just a gallery of URLs or a Slideshare or equiv. as from a wiki), then let’s? We did this with OpenOffice.org, and I’m sure others do it all the time with their own projects. It was part of our Marketing project; localized entries were maintained by the relevant localization group. The only problem—not entirely trivial—relates to vetting, currency, accuracy. But I think this could also be dealt with.
louis
PS regarding the Apache Way…. the document that I’ve referred people to that cleanly expresses it and also the feeling for it is Shane’s.
>
>> On Dec 22, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>> What we *REALLY* want are projects
>>> that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
>>> Apache Brand.
>>
>> What is "The Apache Way", anyway?
>>
>> There's no coherent, authoritative definition -- and therefore,
>> transgressions are inevitable.
>>
>> Proposition: It is impossible to define The Apache Way while following
>> The Apache Way.
>>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
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>
>
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
Aren't there loads and loads of presos, webinars, slides
etc from various ApacheCons and other FOSS conf's which
detailed the Apache Way?
> On Dec 22, 2014, at 9:42 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> What we *REALLY* want are projects
>> that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
>> Apache Brand.
>
> What is "The Apache Way", anyway?
>
> There's no coherent, authoritative definition -- and therefore,
> transgressions are inevitable.
>
> Proposition: It is impossible to define The Apache Way while following
> The Apache Way.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by "Edward J. Yoon" <ed...@apache.org>.
Agree with Upayavira. And, I think the mentors need to be more
diverse. Sometimes I can predict the result of vote.
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 11:42 PM, Marvin Humphrey
<ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> What we *REALLY* want are projects
>> that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
>> Apache Brand.
>
> What is "The Apache Way", anyway?
>
> There's no coherent, authoritative definition -- and therefore,
> transgressions are inevitable.
>
> Proposition: It is impossible to define The Apache Way while following
> The Apache Way.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
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>
--
Best Regards, Edward J. Yoon
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> What we *REALLY* want are projects
> that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
> Apache Brand.
What is "The Apache Way", anyway?
There's no coherent, authoritative definition -- and therefore,
transgressions are inevitable.
Proposition: It is impossible to define The Apache Way while following
The Apache Way.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Joe Witt <jo...@gmail.com>.
Hello
I am a very new participant in Apache and a member of the ppmc for apache
nifi (incubating).
So I thought it would be good to share that perspective for this
discussion...
In writing the NiFi proposal this section was honestly a bit awkward. The
other sections are largely about providing information so the community
could better understand the project and they were intuitive in purpose.
But this 'fascination with the brand section' seemed more like a comment to
the new project. It was clear there was past history that prompted the
need for such a section but there was little to draw on to truly appreciate
the intent and thus to write anything that felt truly genuine.
Perhaps this section would be better off written as a question: "Does the
proposed podling intend to learn and follow the Apache Way and to
participate through appropriate discourse?" It is also reasonable to
include with the question examples or patterns of behavior which are
problematic as well as examples or patterns which best reflect the ideals.
Thanks
Joe
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Sean Owen <sr...@apache.org> wrote:
> I was going to ask the same. I've seen ~5 proposals now, and was
> surprised to see how they all copied and pasted the same boilerplate
> to answer several points, including this stanza about risk of
> excessive fascination with the brand.
>
> I also suspect that there is excessive fascination, and that paying
> lip service to it as a risk is not really sufficient. That may be
> another discussion.
>
> But concretely: what about just asking proposers to not copy and paste
> past proposals? Surely it's not so much to ask the proposed project to
> address, individually and from scratch, the issues raised by the
> proposal process. Or, explicitly ask the proposal to address why the
> project should be part of the ASF, now -- that is, what *else* besides
> becoming "Apache Foo" is the motivation?
>
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> > I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects
> > that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
> > Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow,
> > that new projects want to enter the ASF because they
> > approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating
> > projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we
> > have graduated projects which are more interested in
> > simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and
> > then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the
> > aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache
> > brand so valuable and noteworthy.
> >
> > Maybe we need to change the proposal guide.
> >
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> >
>
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
I have always thought that there would be value in reviewing the topics
in our project proposals.
Ideally, we would review them to make sure all questions are open ended,
rather than having a clear expected answer:
Could we replace "Inexperience with Open Source" (which begs the answer,
"No, we have experience", with "Please detail your level of experience
with Open Source development"
Could we replace "Homogenous Developers" with "please detail the roles
the proposed committers have within which organisations"
Then replace "reliance upon salaried developers" with "Please detail the
spread of volunteer vs paid contributor amongst the proposed
committers".
etc, etc.
Sure, people will work out what the "expected" answers are, but I always
felt that there was something definitely wrong with the topic headings
as we ask them.
Upayavira
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014, at 08:59 AM, jan i wrote:
> On Monday, December 22, 2014, Sean Owen <sr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > I was going to ask the same. I've seen ~5 proposals now, and was
> > surprised to see how they all copied and pasted the same boilerplate
> > to answer several points, including this stanza about risk of
> > excessive fascination with the brand.
>
>
> being one that just championed a project, I can say that this question
> was
> the least understandable, I only understood the difference after a
> discussion. Maybe we could word it better. Something along the lines what
> does brand apache mean to the project, compared to the apache way.
>
> >
> > I also suspect that there is excessive fascination, and that paying
> > lip service to it as a risk is not really sufficient. That may be
> > another discussion.
> >
> > But concretely: what about just asking proposers to not copy and paste
> > past proposals? Surely it's not so much to ask the proposed project to
> > address, individually and from scratch, the issues raised by the
> > proposal process. Or, explicitly ask the proposal to address why the
> > project should be part of the ASF, now -- that is, what *else* besides
> > becoming "Apache Foo" is the motivation?
>
> i think the question is a good idea. copy/paste is hard to avoid on some
> of
> the questions.
>
> rgds
> jan i
>
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com
> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects
> > > that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
> > > Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow,
> > > that new projects want to enter the ASF because they
> > > approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating
> > > projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we
> > > have graduated projects which are more interested in
> > > simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and
> > > then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the
> > > aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache
> > > brand so valuable and noteworthy.
> > >
> > > Maybe we need to change the proposal guide.
> > >
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> > >
> >
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> >
>
> --
> Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On Monday, December 22, 2014, Sean Owen <sr...@apache.org> wrote:
> I was going to ask the same. I've seen ~5 proposals now, and was
> surprised to see how they all copied and pasted the same boilerplate
> to answer several points, including this stanza about risk of
> excessive fascination with the brand.
being one that just championed a project, I can say that this question was
the least understandable, I only understood the difference after a
discussion. Maybe we could word it better. Something along the lines what
does brand apache mean to the project, compared to the apache way.
>
> I also suspect that there is excessive fascination, and that paying
> lip service to it as a risk is not really sufficient. That may be
> another discussion.
>
> But concretely: what about just asking proposers to not copy and paste
> past proposals? Surely it's not so much to ask the proposed project to
> address, individually and from scratch, the issues raised by the
> proposal process. Or, explicitly ask the proposal to address why the
> project should be part of the ASF, now -- that is, what *else* besides
> becoming "Apache Foo" is the motivation?
i think the question is a good idea. copy/paste is hard to avoid on some of
the questions.
rgds
jan i
>
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects
> > that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
> > Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow,
> > that new projects want to enter the ASF because they
> > approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating
> > projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we
> > have graduated projects which are more interested in
> > simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and
> > then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the
> > aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache
> > brand so valuable and noteworthy.
> >
> > Maybe we need to change the proposal guide.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> <javascript:;>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> <javascript:;>
> >
>
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> <javascript:;>
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> <javascript:;>
>
>
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Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.
Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:37 AM, Sean Owen <sr...@apache.org> wrote:
> I was going to ask the same. I've seen ~5 proposals now, and was
> surprised to see how they all copied and pasted the same boilerplate
> to answer several points, including this stanza about risk of
> excessive fascination with the brand.
I see no problem with that per se. IOW, a poddling that enters incubation
with only vague ideas of what to expect is completely and totally ok,
as long as mentors are doing their job.
> But concretely: what about just asking proposers to not copy and paste
> past proposals? Surely it's not so much to ask the proposed project to
> address, individually and from scratch, the issues raised by the
> proposal process. Or, explicitly ask the proposal to address why the
> project should be part of the ASF, now -- that is, what *else* besides
> becoming "Apache Foo" is the motivation?
I really don't think it would serve any purpose. Just IMO.
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Sean Owen <sr...@apache.org>.
I was going to ask the same. I've seen ~5 proposals now, and was
surprised to see how they all copied and pasted the same boilerplate
to answer several points, including this stanza about risk of
excessive fascination with the brand.
I also suspect that there is excessive fascination, and that paying
lip service to it as a risk is not really sufficient. That may be
another discussion.
But concretely: what about just asking proposers to not copy and paste
past proposals? Surely it's not so much to ask the proposed project to
address, individually and from scratch, the issues raised by the
proposal process. Or, explicitly ask the proposal to address why the
project should be part of the ASF, now -- that is, what *else* besides
becoming "Apache Foo" is the motivation?
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects
> that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
> Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow,
> that new projects want to enter the ASF because they
> approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating
> projects and communities. Lately, it appears, that we
> have graduated projects which are more interested in
> simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and
> then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the
> aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache
> brand so valuable and noteworthy.
>
> Maybe we need to change the proposal guide.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
> On 23 Dec 2014, at 13:53, Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> tl;dr; agree with a problem statement, don't think
> that proposal wording has much to do with solving
> the problem, would love to see mentors do more.
>
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects
>> that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
>> Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow,
>> that new projects want to enter the ASF because they
>> approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating
>> projects and communities.
>
> A very strong +1 to that.
>
>> Lately, it appears, that we
>> have graduated projects which are more interested in
>> simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and
>> then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the
>> aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache
>> brand so valuable and noteworthy.
>>
>> Maybe we need to change the proposal guide.
>
> Fine-tuning proposal guide would be helpful ("patches"
> are always welcome).
>
> That said, I *really* don't think it would have any impact
> on the problem stated above. The real answer lies in
> mentors/champions who are diligent about guiding
> poddlings towards true understanding of the Apache Way.
> There's a separate thread on how to make mentors
> more accountable.
>
> IOW, if we want a change in poddling behavior, I'd rather
> focus on incubation/graduation process rather than
> entrance criteria.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
Roman, et al.,
I tend to agree with your assessment tho am unsure what is meant by “accountable”; sounds scary--
Thus: I have found mentors in projects and advocate, again, a (mild) cooperative system of obligation upon commit status. But I also want to do something I’ve wanted to do for some time and focus on disarticulating the *way* of open source production from the *thing* being made, i.e., the code.
This is not that radical a notion, at least not in other fields. Modes of cooperative collaboration have been taught many places. Formally, it can exist, I bet, away from the object being made. And it may—may, alas—may make it easier to get mentors, once it is seen that being a mentor is not a pit of lost time.
louis
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Re: P. An Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
tl;dr; agree with a problem statement, don't think
that proposal wording has much to do with solving
the problem, would love to see mentors do more.
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:21 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> I was wondering... What we *REALLY* want are projects
> that are interested more in The Apache Way than in the
> Apache Brand. We need to make it more clear, somehow,
> that new projects want to enter the ASF because they
> approve of, and want to follow, the *how* of creating
> projects and communities.
A very strong +1 to that.
> Lately, it appears, that we
> have graduated projects which are more interested in
> simply being able to add 'Apache' to their name, and
> then deride/minimize/ignore/dispute most/all of the
> aspects of The Apache Way which is what made the Apache
> brand so valuable and noteworthy.
>
> Maybe we need to change the proposal guide.
Fine-tuning proposal guide would be helpful ("patches"
are always welcome).
That said, I *really* don't think it would have any impact
on the problem stated above. The real answer lies in
mentors/champions who are diligent about guiding
poddlings towards true understanding of the Apache Way.
There's a separate thread on how to make mentors
more accountable.
IOW, if we want a change in poddling behavior, I'd rather
focus on incubation/graduation process rather than
entrance criteria.
Thanks,
Roman.
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