You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch> on 2013/03/20 14:28:04 UTC
What I miss a bit at the project
Hi all
At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same
were more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then
now. The fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean
that we are not allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make
dessisions at the IRC, because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.
IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You
have often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is
more afective and make more.
I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose
#dev.openoffice.org at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to
jump in too.
Greetings Raphael
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
> more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
> fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
> allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
> because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.
>
> IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
> often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
> afective and make more.
>
> I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
> at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.
>
It would be wonderful if someone could update this wiki page:
http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/IRC_Communication
And also maybe put a link to it on the website someplace, maybe even
a link from the navigator on http://openoffice.apache.org, next to
"mailing lists".
-Rob
> Greetings Raphael
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <ls...@gmail.com>.
Hm. Why use #openoffice.org when, say, #openoffice or the like, would do?
louis
On 20 March 2013 09:28, Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
> more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
> fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
> allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
> because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.
>
> IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
> often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
> afective and make more.
>
> I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
> at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.
>
> Greetings Raphael
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
Posted by Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch>.
Hi Phil
Am 20.03.13 16:19, schrieb Phillip Rhodes:
> IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
> people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
> projects is to ensure that decision making is done
> in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that
> most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
> actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).
I don't talk about using the IRC as a tool to have meetings to make
decisions. I talk about daily discussion like questions from newbies and
questions about the work. E.g: I don't understand what user XY means
with comment Z in issue XXXXX, can samone help me? Or I don't know why
this is in the Code, has sameone a answare?
This has nothing to do with decision making neiter with a discoussion
about decision making. For that i want to use IRC channels. But this
works only if people participate.
>
> That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please
> correct me if I'm wrong.
>
>
> Phil
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
>> more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
>> fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
>> allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
>> because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.
>>
>> IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
>> often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
>> afective and make more.
>>
>> I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
>> at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.
>>
>> Greetings Raphael
>>
Greetings Raphael
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
Posted by Phillip Rhodes <mo...@gmail.com>.
Well said, Rob. I should have been more explicit in explaining that
when I say "decision making" I mean "big decisions" for some value of "big".
It's a little bit subjective and will always be a judgment call, but I
think your
example is perfect. "How to fix the broken build" can absolutely be
done on IRC.
Deciding to rewrite Calc in Ada, OTOH would not be something you would want
to do on IRC.
Personally I'm looking forward to a move active IRC presence for AOO
people, as I'm a big IRC fan. I just want to make sure we stay
aligned with the Apache Way.
Phil
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Phillip Rhodes
> <mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
>> people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
>> projects is to ensure that decision making is done
>> in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that
>> most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
>> actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).
>>
>> That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please
>> correct me if I'm wrong.
>>
>
> That's the general idea. But not everything needs discussion. JFDI
> has a place as well. For example, if the build broke and the
> developers meet in IRC to figure out how to fix it, I'd expect them to
> just JFDI. No need to report back to the dev list or discuss further
> or to ask permission. The commit logs will record what was done.
>
> But in general, decisions are not urgent. They don't need to be made
> at short notice. So the mailing list is more respectful of
> participation of project members in many time zones, including many
> native languages, and individuals who might need to check a dictionary
> occasionally to understand what is said. The mailing list is
> inclusive. Real-time meetings, in person, via phone, Google Hangouts,
> IRC, etc., are tied to a specific time, and so they are less
> inclusive. But they still have a role to play, I think.
>
> -Rob
>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
>>> more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
>>> fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
>>> allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
>>> because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.
>>>
>>> IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
>>> often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
>>> afective and make more.
>>>
>>> I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
>>> at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.
>>>
>>> Greetings Raphael
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Phillip Rhodes
<mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
> people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
> projects is to ensure that decision making is done
> in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that
> most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
> actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).
>
> That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please
> correct me if I'm wrong.
>
That's the general idea. But not everything needs discussion. JFDI
has a place as well. For example, if the build broke and the
developers meet in IRC to figure out how to fix it, I'd expect them to
just JFDI. No need to report back to the dev list or discuss further
or to ask permission. The commit logs will record what was done.
But in general, decisions are not urgent. They don't need to be made
at short notice. So the mailing list is more respectful of
participation of project members in many time zones, including many
native languages, and individuals who might need to check a dictionary
occasionally to understand what is said. The mailing list is
inclusive. Real-time meetings, in person, via phone, Google Hangouts,
IRC, etc., are tied to a specific time, and so they are less
inclusive. But they still have a role to play, I think.
-Rob
>
> Phil
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
>> more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
>> fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
>> allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
>> because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.
>>
>> IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
>> often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
>> afective and make more.
>>
>> I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
>> at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.
>>
>> Greetings Raphael
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
Posted by Phillip Rhodes <mo...@gmail.com>.
The "lack of available record" thing can be addressed - to some extent
- by logging the channel traffic and posting the log somewhere where
it will be publicly available. Offhand, I'd say this is something we
should do, if we aren't already, to the extent that we use IRC.
Phil
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> +1
>
> There's also the problem of synchronicity. Living in gmt-0800 (now gmt-0700 until the end of October), it is very difficult to find an useful window. And if I am not present, I am not aware and have no available record. The Apach lists and procedures recognize the need for asynchronous activity and allowing for the different times and availabilities of participants.
>
> I personally do not use IRC much, and even in conference calls I avoid "instant design" as much as possible. That's my personal dynamic for managing multiple activities. I gather that there are folks who find IRC very useful. My closest to that is some regular, time-blocked Google+ Hangout meetings. They have the advantage of audio (plus video), even though one can use chat in a sidebar.
>
> I am not objecting to IRC. But it is not a panacea.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phillip Rhodes [mailto:motley.crue.fan@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 08:19
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: What I miss a bit at the project
>
> IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
> people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
> projects is to ensure that decision making is done
> in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that
> most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
> actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).
>
> That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please
> correct me if I'm wrong.
>
>
> Phil
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
>> more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
>> fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
>> allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
>> because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.
>>
>> IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
>> often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
>> afective and make more.
>>
>> I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
>> at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.
>>
>> Greetings Raphael
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
RE: What I miss a bit at the project
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
+1
There's also the problem of synchronicity. Living in gmt-0800 (now gmt-0700 until the end of October), it is very difficult to find an useful window. And if I am not present, I am not aware and have no available record. The Apach lists and procedures recognize the need for asynchronous activity and allowing for the different times and availabilities of participants.
I personally do not use IRC much, and even in conference calls I avoid "instant design" as much as possible. That's my personal dynamic for managing multiple activities. I gather that there are folks who find IRC very useful. My closest to that is some regular, time-blocked Google+ Hangout meetings. They have the advantage of audio (plus video), even though one can use chat in a sidebar.
I am not objecting to IRC. But it is not a panacea.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Phillip Rhodes [mailto:motley.crue.fan@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 08:19
To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: What I miss a bit at the project
IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
projects is to ensure that decision making is done
in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that
most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).
That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please
correct me if I'm wrong.
Phil
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
> more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
> fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
> allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
> because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.
>
> IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
> often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
> afective and make more.
>
> I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
> at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.
>
> Greetings Raphael
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: What I miss a bit at the project
Posted by Phillip Rhodes <mo...@gmail.com>.
IRC is great and all, and I'm all for having as many channels as
people feel a need for. Just keep in mind that the ASF approach to
projects is to ensure that decision making is done
in public and very openly. I think the implication of that is that
most discussion that leads directly to a decision, and definitely any
actual decision making, should happen on the mailing list(s).
That's the way I've always understood it anyway. Somebody please
correct me if I'm wrong.
Phil
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:28 AM, Raphael Bircher <r....@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> At the old OpenOffice project we have had different IRC Channels. Same were
> more active then others, but we have had a load more activity then now. The
> fact, that not a load Apache Projects use IRC does not mean that we are not
> allowed to use IRC. We are not allowed to make dessisions at the IRC,
> because Apache has clear rouls for dessicion making.
>
> IRC has many avantage over a ML. You can discouss problemes life. You have
> often much faster a answare. And at same problems. work togeter is more
> afective and make more.
>
> I realy would like a more active IRC Channel. I propose #dev.openoffice.org
> at freenode as our main channel. I encourage you to jump in too.
>
> Greetings Raphael
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org