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Posted to dev@cayenne.apache.org by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> on 2011/02/24 12:01:50 UTC
Article
Hi guys,
as you might know, I am writing from time to time small articles for
the press. I have spoken with my mag recently and they are interested
in a new Cayenne article as I suggested. I was thinking about
comparing Hibernate to Cayenne (there is a good email thread somewhere
in the archives with inspiriation) but I am willing to listen for
other suggestions. Articles are always good marketing and probably you
have a specific topic you want to promote. Ideas? Suggestions? Let me
know.
Cheers
Christian
Re: Article
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
I think comparing Cayenne to Hibernate may be a good topic. Like Ari said, maybe with focus on how a user would do things with Cayenne.
Another topic is preview of Cayenne 3.1. Things like its very small but powerful DI container, extensions for advanced lifecycle management using annotations going beyond JPA low-level callbacks. The last one is also a good case study on the advantages of DataObject architecture.
Andrus
On Feb 24, 2011, at 1:47 PM, Malcolm Edgar wrote:
> What I find really useful with Cayenne is its support for dropping
> down into raw SQL to get things done, in addition to its first class
> ORM support.
>
> regards Malcolm Edgar
>
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Aristedes Maniatis <ar...@maniatis.org> wrote:
>> Any article would be beneficial, so at the outset, I say "write about what
>> you know best and are most comfortable talking about". Beyond that,
>> comparing to Hibernate is useful for developers familiar with Hibernate but
>> frustrated for some reason. However, discussing Cayenne's own attributes is
>> probably even more useful. Cayenne stands on its own without needing
>> Hibernate as a reference point. Some of the interesting areas (in my
>> opinion):
>>
>> * the modeler
>> * reverse engineering a db
>> * ROP (three tier)
>> * caching and integration with other providers such as osCache
>>
>>
>> Ari
>>
>> On 24/02/11 10:01 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> as you might know, I am writing from time to time small articles for
>>> the press. I have spoken with my mag recently and they are interested
>>> in a new Cayenne article as I suggested. I was thinking about
>>> comparing Hibernate to Cayenne (there is a good email thread somewhere
>>> in the archives with inspiriation) but I am willing to listen for
>>> other suggestions. Articles are always good marketing and probably you
>>> have a specific topic you want to promote. Ideas? Suggestions? Let me
>>> know.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Christian
>>
>> --
>> -------------------------->
>> Aristedes Maniatis
>> GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C 5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A
>>
>
Re: Article
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
Nice :-)
On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I now have agreed on a deadline with the JavaMagazin. Two 20k
> character articles will be printed.
>
> Working titles are:
> #1 Why Cayenne (and not Hibernate)
> #2 Remote Objects with C3
>
> Deadline for the first is august, the second one is september.
>
> I expect the to appear one month later.
>
> If some of you want to do proof reading, please PM me. I cannot post
> the content to this list, but I am willing to translate several parts
> in private.
>
> I have had a short conversation around Cayenne on Customerside and
> they were really interested. What I learned was that they all want to
> know whats better than the wellknown Hibernate. I could not explain
> everything very well back than but hope I can improve my knowledge
> when writing. However, people seem to be a bit afraid when they use
> tools which are not number 1 in the dev world.
>
> Time for a change! ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Christian
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Mike Kienenberger <mk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Not sure about hibernate, but one of the things we miss most about
>>> Cayenne in our JPA environment is DataContexts.
>>>
>>> - The ability to work with objects without an activate database transaction
>>> - The ability to commit from one data context into another
>>> - The ability to just toss a data context without keeping any changes made
>>> - The ability to roll back a data context when necessary
>>>
>>> These are things that may eventually one day push my current project
>>> and future projects back into Cayenne from JPA.
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> Can I steal this? :-)
>>
>> mrg
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.grobmeier.de
>
Re: Article
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
Hello all,
I now have agreed on a deadline with the JavaMagazin. Two 20k
character articles will be printed.
Working titles are:
#1 Why Cayenne (and not Hibernate)
#2 Remote Objects with C3
Deadline for the first is august, the second one is september.
I expect the to appear one month later.
If some of you want to do proof reading, please PM me. I cannot post
the content to this list, but I am willing to translate several parts
in private.
I have had a short conversation around Cayenne on Customerside and
they were really interested. What I learned was that they all want to
know whats better than the wellknown Hibernate. I could not explain
everything very well back than but hope I can improve my knowledge
when writing. However, people seem to be a bit afraid when they use
tools which are not number 1 in the dev world.
Time for a change! ;-)
Cheers,
Christian
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Mike Kienenberger <mk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Not sure about hibernate, but one of the things we miss most about
>> Cayenne in our JPA environment is DataContexts.
>>
>> - The ability to work with objects without an activate database transaction
>> - The ability to commit from one data context into another
>> - The ability to just toss a data context without keeping any changes made
>> - The ability to roll back a data context when necessary
>>
>> These are things that may eventually one day push my current project
>> and future projects back into Cayenne from JPA.
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Can I steal this? :-)
>
> mrg
>
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
Re: Article
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
All,
thanks for the tons of feedback, I appreciate it. After my initial
post my job killed me, so I had to delay my response. I am still
unsure what to write, but the information in this thread gave my
inspiration for 5 articles.
Thanks to all and I will let you know what I agreed with the mag
Cheers
Christian
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:38 PM, Mike Kienenberger <mk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's posted to a public list :)
>
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Mike Kienenberger <mk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Not sure about hibernate, but one of the things we miss most about
>>> Cayenne in our JPA environment is DataContexts.
>>>
>>> - The ability to work with objects without an activate database transaction
>>> - The ability to commit from one data context into another
>>> - The ability to just toss a data context without keeping any changes made
>>> - The ability to roll back a data context when necessary
>>>
>>> These are things that may eventually one day push my current project
>>> and future projects back into Cayenne from JPA.
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> Can I steal this? :-)
>>
>> mrg
>>
>
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
Re: Article
Posted by Mike Kienenberger <mk...@gmail.com>.
It's posted to a public list :)
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Mike Kienenberger <mk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Not sure about hibernate, but one of the things we miss most about
>> Cayenne in our JPA environment is DataContexts.
>>
>> - The ability to work with objects without an activate database transaction
>> - The ability to commit from one data context into another
>> - The ability to just toss a data context without keeping any changes made
>> - The ability to roll back a data context when necessary
>>
>> These are things that may eventually one day push my current project
>> and future projects back into Cayenne from JPA.
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Can I steal this? :-)
>
> mrg
>
Re: Article
Posted by Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net>.
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Mike Kienenberger <mk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not sure about hibernate, but one of the things we miss most about
> Cayenne in our JPA environment is DataContexts.
>
> - The ability to work with objects without an activate database transaction
> - The ability to commit from one data context into another
> - The ability to just toss a data context without keeping any changes made
> - The ability to roll back a data context when necessary
>
> These are things that may eventually one day push my current project
> and future projects back into Cayenne from JPA.
Hi Mike,
Can I steal this? :-)
mrg
Re: Article
Posted by Mike Kienenberger <mk...@gmail.com>.
Not sure about hibernate, but one of the things we miss most about
Cayenne in our JPA environment is DataContexts.
- The ability to work with objects without an activate database transaction
- The ability to commit from one data context into another
- The ability to just toss a data context without keeping any changes made
- The ability to roll back a data context when necessary
These are things that may eventually one day push my current project
and future projects back into Cayenne from JPA.
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Robert Zeigler
<ro...@roxanemy.com> wrote:
> Note that you can use raw sql in hibernate, as well, although I'm unaware of anything as nice/powerful as SQLTemplate in cayenne.
>
> Robert
>
> On Feb 24, 2011, at 2/245:47 AM , Malcolm Edgar wrote:
>
>> What I find really useful with Cayenne is its support for dropping
>> down into raw SQL to get things done, in addition to its first class
>> ORM support.
>>
>> regards Malcolm Edgar
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Aristedes Maniatis <ar...@maniatis.org> wrote:
>>> Any article would be beneficial, so at the outset, I say "write about what
>>> you know best and are most comfortable talking about". Beyond that,
>>> comparing to Hibernate is useful for developers familiar with Hibernate but
>>> frustrated for some reason. However, discussing Cayenne's own attributes is
>>> probably even more useful. Cayenne stands on its own without needing
>>> Hibernate as a reference point. Some of the interesting areas (in my
>>> opinion):
>>>
>>> * the modeler
>>> * reverse engineering a db
>>> * ROP (three tier)
>>> * caching and integration with other providers such as osCache
>>>
>>>
>>> Ari
>>>
>>> On 24/02/11 10:01 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>
>>>> as you might know, I am writing from time to time small articles for
>>>> the press. I have spoken with my mag recently and they are interested
>>>> in a new Cayenne article as I suggested. I was thinking about
>>>> comparing Hibernate to Cayenne (there is a good email thread somewhere
>>>> in the archives with inspiriation) but I am willing to listen for
>>>> other suggestions. Articles are always good marketing and probably you
>>>> have a specific topic you want to promote. Ideas? Suggestions? Let me
>>>> know.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Christian
>>>
>>> --
>>> -------------------------->
>>> Aristedes Maniatis
>>> GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C 5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A
>>>
>
>
Re: Article
Posted by Robert Zeigler <ro...@roxanemy.com>.
Note that you can use raw sql in hibernate, as well, although I'm unaware of anything as nice/powerful as SQLTemplate in cayenne.
Robert
On Feb 24, 2011, at 2/245:47 AM , Malcolm Edgar wrote:
> What I find really useful with Cayenne is its support for dropping
> down into raw SQL to get things done, in addition to its first class
> ORM support.
>
> regards Malcolm Edgar
>
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Aristedes Maniatis <ar...@maniatis.org> wrote:
>> Any article would be beneficial, so at the outset, I say "write about what
>> you know best and are most comfortable talking about". Beyond that,
>> comparing to Hibernate is useful for developers familiar with Hibernate but
>> frustrated for some reason. However, discussing Cayenne's own attributes is
>> probably even more useful. Cayenne stands on its own without needing
>> Hibernate as a reference point. Some of the interesting areas (in my
>> opinion):
>>
>> * the modeler
>> * reverse engineering a db
>> * ROP (three tier)
>> * caching and integration with other providers such as osCache
>>
>>
>> Ari
>>
>> On 24/02/11 10:01 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> as you might know, I am writing from time to time small articles for
>>> the press. I have spoken with my mag recently and they are interested
>>> in a new Cayenne article as I suggested. I was thinking about
>>> comparing Hibernate to Cayenne (there is a good email thread somewhere
>>> in the archives with inspiriation) but I am willing to listen for
>>> other suggestions. Articles are always good marketing and probably you
>>> have a specific topic you want to promote. Ideas? Suggestions? Let me
>>> know.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Christian
>>
>> --
>> -------------------------->
>> Aristedes Maniatis
>> GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C 5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A
>>
Re: Article
Posted by Malcolm Edgar <ma...@gmail.com>.
What I find really useful with Cayenne is its support for dropping
down into raw SQL to get things done, in addition to its first class
ORM support.
regards Malcolm Edgar
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Aristedes Maniatis <ar...@maniatis.org> wrote:
> Any article would be beneficial, so at the outset, I say "write about what
> you know best and are most comfortable talking about". Beyond that,
> comparing to Hibernate is useful for developers familiar with Hibernate but
> frustrated for some reason. However, discussing Cayenne's own attributes is
> probably even more useful. Cayenne stands on its own without needing
> Hibernate as a reference point. Some of the interesting areas (in my
> opinion):
>
> * the modeler
> * reverse engineering a db
> * ROP (three tier)
> * caching and integration with other providers such as osCache
>
>
> Ari
>
> On 24/02/11 10:01 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> as you might know, I am writing from time to time small articles for
>> the press. I have spoken with my mag recently and they are interested
>> in a new Cayenne article as I suggested. I was thinking about
>> comparing Hibernate to Cayenne (there is a good email thread somewhere
>> in the archives with inspiriation) but I am willing to listen for
>> other suggestions. Articles are always good marketing and probably you
>> have a specific topic you want to promote. Ideas? Suggestions? Let me
>> know.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Christian
>
> --
> -------------------------->
> Aristedes Maniatis
> GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C 5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A
>
Re: Article
Posted by Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net>.
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Robert Zeigler
<ro...@roxanemy.com> wrote:
> As much as I love the model, the current "hibernate way" is to code a POJO, occasionally annotating things to make the associations, etc. clearer. And then hibernate will build your schema for you.
> It obviates a lot of the need for the modeler since a large fraction of your model winds up being defined by convention. If you have a class with property "foo", then, by default, you have a table with column "foo".
> I'm not trying to troll for hibernate here. ;) I still much prefer Cayenne. But having used hibernate quite a bit for the past 2.5 years (by necessity, not by my choice ;), I'm at least somewhat conversant in how a hibernate user might react. And the fact is that within the realm of people who have ORM experience, many (most?) of those have hibernate experience.
>
Hi Robert,
The downside to annotations (or XML) is you have to *learn* it still.
With Cayenne Modeler, you have a much easier time (especially at the
beginning) by not having to learn framework-specific annotations, etc.
I don't like digging through the manual as much these days.
mrg
Re: Article
Posted by Robert Zeigler <ro...@roxanemy.com>.
On Feb 24, 2011, at 2/245:38 AM , Aristedes Maniatis wrote:
> Any article would be beneficial, so at the outset, I say "write about what you know best and are most comfortable talking about". Beyond that, comparing to Hibernate is useful for developers familiar with Hibernate but frustrated for some reason. However, discussing Cayenne's own attributes is probably even more useful. Cayenne stands on its own without needing Hibernate as a reference point. Some of the interesting areas (in my opinion):
>
> * the modeler
As much as I love the model, the current "hibernate way" is to code a POJO, occasionally annotating things to make the associations, etc. clearer. And then hibernate will build your schema for you.
It obviates a lot of the need for the modeler since a large fraction of your model winds up being defined by convention. If you have a class with property "foo", then, by default, you have a table with column "foo".
I'm not trying to troll for hibernate here. ;) I still much prefer Cayenne. But having used hibernate quite a bit for the past 2.5 years (by necessity, not by my choice ;), I'm at least somewhat conversant in how a hibernate user might react. And the fact is that within the realm of people who have ORM experience, many (most?) of those have hibernate experience.
> * reverse engineering a db
> * ROP (three tier)
> * caching and integration with other providers such as osCache
>
Hibernate can do that, too. ;)
In short, I definitely agree with "discussion Cayenne's own attributes is probably even more useful."
Robert
>
> Ari
>
> On 24/02/11 10:01 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> as you might know, I am writing from time to time small articles for
>> the press. I have spoken with my mag recently and they are interested
>> in a new Cayenne article as I suggested. I was thinking about
>> comparing Hibernate to Cayenne (there is a good email thread somewhere
>> in the archives with inspiriation) but I am willing to listen for
>> other suggestions. Articles are always good marketing and probably you
>> have a specific topic you want to promote. Ideas? Suggestions? Let me
>> know.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Christian
>
> --
> -------------------------->
> Aristedes Maniatis
> GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C 5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A
Re: Article
Posted by Aristedes Maniatis <ar...@maniatis.org>.
Any article would be beneficial, so at the outset, I say "write about what you know best and are most comfortable talking about". Beyond that, comparing to Hibernate is useful for developers familiar with Hibernate but frustrated for some reason. However, discussing Cayenne's own attributes is probably even more useful. Cayenne stands on its own without needing Hibernate as a reference point. Some of the interesting areas (in my opinion):
* the modeler
* reverse engineering a db
* ROP (three tier)
* caching and integration with other providers such as osCache
Ari
On 24/02/11 10:01 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> as you might know, I am writing from time to time small articles for
> the press. I have spoken with my mag recently and they are interested
> in a new Cayenne article as I suggested. I was thinking about
> comparing Hibernate to Cayenne (there is a good email thread somewhere
> in the archives with inspiriation) but I am willing to listen for
> other suggestions. Articles are always good marketing and probably you
> have a specific topic you want to promote. Ideas? Suggestions? Let me
> know.
>
> Cheers
> Christian
--
-------------------------->
Aristedes Maniatis
GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C 5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A
Re: Article
Posted by Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net>.
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Robert Zeigler
<ro...@roxanemy.com> wrote:
>> * Cayenne objects are NOT proxied. Cayenne objects are OO
>> (inheritance) while Hibernate objects are POJOs (which are then
>> proxied).
>
> :) Note that this actually means that using hibernate /does/ involve inheritance, but it inverts the inheritance structure (hibernate proxies are ultimately subclasses of your POJO's). But hibernate proxies can result in some really hard to understand exceptions. ;)
>
I agree completely with you here, Robert. I'm tried to explain to
people many times about the inverted inheritance and proxied nature of
Hibernate (often without a lot of success). It makes it hard to debug
(especially stepping through with a debugger).
mrg
Re: Article
Posted by Robert Zeigler <ro...@roxanemy.com>.
On Feb 24, 2011, at 2/247:09 AM , Michael Gentry wrote:
> Hi Christian,
>
> I'm not a Hibernate expert by any stretch, but here are my high-level
> notes on differences between Cayenne and Hibernate:
>
> * Cayenne doesn't have a LazyInitializationException (LIE).
> * Cayenne doesn't have a TransientObjectException (TOE).
> * Cayenne objects are NOT proxied. Cayenne objects are OO
> (inheritance) while Hibernate objects are POJOs (which are then
> proxied).
:) Note that this actually means that using hibernate /does/ involve inheritance, but it inverts the inheritance structure (hibernate proxies are ultimately subclasses of your POJO's). But hibernate proxies can result in some really hard to understand exceptions. ;)
Also, Cayenne does throw an exception when associating two objects from different ObjectContexts...
> * Cayenne doesn't need Spring for transaction management because of
> the DataContext. (Technically, Hibernate doesn't need Spring either,
> but Spring is quite often used to manage Hibernate.)
> * Cayenne doesn't need DAOs.
> * Cayenne has a native GUI.
> * Cayenne has great optimistic locking support that uses real data
> instead of arbitrary artifacts which are more fragile.
>
Pretty sure that hibernate can do optimistic locking on whichever set of columns/data you want, although people typically use a "version" which hibernate can automatically update for you.
>
> BTW, the LIE and TOE are what caused one project here to start using
> Cayenne instead of Hibernate.
>
> Also, I'm not sure I'd focus as much on Cayenne vs Hibernate, but talk
> about the strengths of Cayenne (GUI, DataContext, Optimistic Locking,
> etc).
>
I definitely think that you don't want to focus too much on Cayenne vs. Hibernate, per se, unless it's to do as someone else mentioned: for people familiar with Hibernate, the Cayenne way of doing abc is xyz.
Otherwise, the thing will devolve into ORM bashing. For all of its weaknesses, and despite the amount I loathe working with hibernate (having worked with it for the past 2.5 years now on a fairly large project), it does have some nice features, and really does support more "edge-case mappings" than Cayenne does. (It just supports all of its mappings in a suckier way than Cayenne. IMO, of course. ;)
Robert
> mrg
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Christian Grobmeier
> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> as you might know, I am writing from time to time small articles for
>> the press. I have spoken with my mag recently and they are interested
>> in a new Cayenne article as I suggested. I was thinking about
>> comparing Hibernate to Cayenne (there is a good email thread somewhere
>> in the archives with inspiriation) but I am willing to listen for
>> other suggestions. Articles are always good marketing and probably you
>> have a specific topic you want to promote. Ideas? Suggestions? Let me
>> know.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Christian
>>
Re: Article
Posted by Michael Gentry <mg...@masslight.net>.
Hi Christian,
I'm not a Hibernate expert by any stretch, but here are my high-level
notes on differences between Cayenne and Hibernate:
* Cayenne doesn't have a LazyInitializationException (LIE).
* Cayenne doesn't have a TransientObjectException (TOE).
* Cayenne objects are NOT proxied. Cayenne objects are OO
(inheritance) while Hibernate objects are POJOs (which are then
proxied).
* Cayenne doesn't need Spring for transaction management because of
the DataContext. (Technically, Hibernate doesn't need Spring either,
but Spring is quite often used to manage Hibernate.)
* Cayenne doesn't need DAOs.
* Cayenne has a native GUI.
* Cayenne has great optimistic locking support that uses real data
instead of arbitrary artifacts which are more fragile.
BTW, the LIE and TOE are what caused one project here to start using
Cayenne instead of Hibernate.
Also, I'm not sure I'd focus as much on Cayenne vs Hibernate, but talk
about the strengths of Cayenne (GUI, DataContext, Optimistic Locking,
etc).
mrg
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> as you might know, I am writing from time to time small articles for
> the press. I have spoken with my mag recently and they are interested
> in a new Cayenne article as I suggested. I was thinking about
> comparing Hibernate to Cayenne (there is a good email thread somewhere
> in the archives with inspiriation) but I am willing to listen for
> other suggestions. Articles are always good marketing and probably you
> have a specific topic you want to promote. Ideas? Suggestions? Let me
> know.
>
> Cheers
> Christian
>