You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by Rainer Hermanns <he...@aixcept.de> on 2007/01/01 03:41:58 UTC
Re: [S2] XWork Status Quo
As a first follow up, happy new year to everyone.
As Pat mentioned, the infrastructure at OpenSymphony does not have the
rules and bounds Apache has.
I have no problem to release milestones, dot releases or the like, but I
want to achieve that certain issues are fixed and targets were reached for
a release.
The only point currently holding up a final xwork 2.0 release is related
to documentation tasks.
I am willing and spending lots of my free time on Struts 2, XWork and
(still) WebWork 2.2.X. to bring this projects to high quality products as
lots of the other developers are doing, but I need more feedback to get
more of the envolved developers in. There are some open issues in Jira
where I call for feedback, but did not get any input.
I had very good discussions with Ian, Phil and Rene at JavaPolis about
open issues, tasks and todos, but it takes lots of time to tackle all of
them...
Also lots of Teds and others suggestions sound reasonable to me, but I
need more help on the xwork side. Currently only Don and Toby help me out
there. Ted, if you want karma, Pat or I can set you up there. Bringing
over xwork to Apache is only one possibility, but I am not sure if the
time for this step has come yet.
XWork is not stealth, nor dead at all... XWork has coupled infrastructure
with webwork and shares its mailing list, forums and so forth.
If you really are in the need of a separated infrastructure we (at
OpenSymphony) all are open for suggestions and critics.
I think, that we first need to get out a GA release of Struts 2, and I
like to follow up on Dons suggestions to fix the currently open issues for
2.0.X instead of branching for 2.1.X series.
Thoughts?
Rainer
PS: Sorry my poor english for now, just came back from a new years eve party!
> Ted,
> Your suggestions all sound very reasonable. Rainer and I would be happy to
> help set this up (I can do the forums/infrastructure, and I'm sure Rainer
> can help by giving releases more compatible version numbers in the
> future).
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Posted via Jive Forums
> http://forums.opensymphony.com/thread.jspa?threadID=56191&messageID=111481#111481
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [S2] XWork Status Quo
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 1/1/07, Alexandru Popescu <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Before the merge, I was spending a lot of my spare time contributing
> to WW and on the XWork side along with Rainer, Jason, and occasionally
> a couple of more guys. The direction was clear for everybody and
> everybody knew where we are heading to.
Then, WebWork was the major consumer of XWork, and since they share
the OpenSymphony infrastructure, XWork, essentially, remained a
subproject of WebWork.
But, since XWork 2 and Struts 2 do not share the same infrastructure,
we cannot treat XWork like it is a subproject of Struts 2.
The situation seems confused because XWork 2 is now a project without
a list, and therefore without a visible, public community. If XWork
adopts the usual project infrastructure, so that it stand on its own,
I believe we will see greater clarity and, consequently, greater
involvement.
-Ted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [S2] XWork Status Quo
Posted by tm jee <tm...@yahoo.co.uk>.
Happy new year guys. :-)
WebWork just like any other open-source project follows the open-source spirits. It is very much driven by the community itself. Features are often implemented when they are substantial enough, it doesn't matter if it originated from users, commiters or the project leads themself. Discussions are normally done until an agreement reach prior to having them implemented. I'd say opensymphony is very much like ASF minus the rigid rules.
Just want to say that from my experience its been both fun and educational at the same time working under the lead of Pat/Jason/Rainer with the community. Jason might be at times a bit harsh at words but he is very much most of the time accurately true.
Cheers guys. :-)
Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org> wrote: To fight philosophy with philosophy ;), the goal of Struts 2 has been
pretty much the same since we started: to simplify web development to
create a more developer-friendly framework. We've been following the
Struts Ti plan [1] roughly since late 2005. WebWork was brought on
board as it was the perfect, solid and proven framework that these ideas
could be built upon.
The current driving goal of Struts 2 is to get a GA release out. Yes,
we've implemented some pretty core changes and resolved a lot of the
rough spots [2] in WebWork 2, and now it is time to get them out to the
wider public. Following such progress can be difficult, particularly
because of the organization structure of Struts and Apache projects in
general. In WebWork, you had two project leads that directed efforts.
In Struts, you have a group of committers on the Project Management
Committee (PMC), each with an equal voice in determining where the
project is going. As expected, each PMC member has their own idea of
where the project should go, so direction and conflicts are more
difficult to discern and resolve.
That said, I'm very confident that we are all on board to get Struts 2
out and make it the best framework available. All I can tell you is to
follow the dev mailing list and get involved in the discussions. That
is the best way to keep abreast of the changes and directions, as well
as move the project to where you want it to go. If you see a change you
don't like, speak up! Your voice is just as important as anyone else's,
and the more talented people we have behind the project, the better.
Don
[1] http://wiki.apache.org/struts/StrutsTi
[2] http://wiki.apache.org/struts/RoughSpots
Alexandru Popescu wrote:
> First of all Happy New Year to everyone! .... and then a bit of a
> philosophical email - something related to previous post by Rainer and
> something that bothered me for the last couple of months.
>
> Before the merge, I was spending a lot of my spare time contributing
> to WW and on the XWork side along with Rainer, Jason, and occasionally
> a couple of more guys. The direction was clear for everybody and
> everybody knew where we are heading to. During the merge and
> afterwards, I got very confused... I've seen lots of emails in the
> form: "hey I've thought about this incredible idea, how does it
> sound?... oh by the way I have already implemented it... (and as a
> side note it changes everything you knew about the underlying
> pieces)". At this point I have stepped back a bit and I have started
> to just watch because I HAD NO IDEA where we want to go - and not the
> generic answers. There are lots of discussions about alphas, betas,
> GAs, etc releases but I haven't seen a single one that would qualify
> itself to be promoted to final users.
>
> Now I see Rainer asking for help and I tend to see the reasons why.
> And as always I would be happy to help, but I frankly would like to
> see what the intentions are. Because, once again, I would like to
> understand why I would put my efforts behind it - and hopefully not
> just to create a couple of alphas, betas, etc.
>
> BR,
>
> ./alex
> --
> .w( the_mindstorm )p.
> :: OSS Evangelist ::
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [S2] XWork Status Quo
Posted by Don Brown <mr...@twdata.org>.
To fight philosophy with philosophy ;), the goal of Struts 2 has been
pretty much the same since we started: to simplify web development to
create a more developer-friendly framework. We've been following the
Struts Ti plan [1] roughly since late 2005. WebWork was brought on
board as it was the perfect, solid and proven framework that these ideas
could be built upon.
The current driving goal of Struts 2 is to get a GA release out. Yes,
we've implemented some pretty core changes and resolved a lot of the
rough spots [2] in WebWork 2, and now it is time to get them out to the
wider public. Following such progress can be difficult, particularly
because of the organization structure of Struts and Apache projects in
general. In WebWork, you had two project leads that directed efforts.
In Struts, you have a group of committers on the Project Management
Committee (PMC), each with an equal voice in determining where the
project is going. As expected, each PMC member has their own idea of
where the project should go, so direction and conflicts are more
difficult to discern and resolve.
That said, I'm very confident that we are all on board to get Struts 2
out and make it the best framework available. All I can tell you is to
follow the dev mailing list and get involved in the discussions. That
is the best way to keep abreast of the changes and directions, as well
as move the project to where you want it to go. If you see a change you
don't like, speak up! Your voice is just as important as anyone else's,
and the more talented people we have behind the project, the better.
Don
[1] http://wiki.apache.org/struts/StrutsTi
[2] http://wiki.apache.org/struts/RoughSpots
Alexandru Popescu wrote:
> First of all Happy New Year to everyone! .... and then a bit of a
> philosophical email - something related to previous post by Rainer and
> something that bothered me for the last couple of months.
>
> Before the merge, I was spending a lot of my spare time contributing
> to WW and on the XWork side along with Rainer, Jason, and occasionally
> a couple of more guys. The direction was clear for everybody and
> everybody knew where we are heading to. During the merge and
> afterwards, I got very confused... I've seen lots of emails in the
> form: "hey I've thought about this incredible idea, how does it
> sound?... oh by the way I have already implemented it... (and as a
> side note it changes everything you knew about the underlying
> pieces)". At this point I have stepped back a bit and I have started
> to just watch because I HAD NO IDEA where we want to go - and not the
> generic answers. There are lots of discussions about alphas, betas,
> GAs, etc releases but I haven't seen a single one that would qualify
> itself to be promoted to final users.
>
> Now I see Rainer asking for help and I tend to see the reasons why.
> And as always I would be happy to help, but I frankly would like to
> see what the intentions are. Because, once again, I would like to
> understand why I would put my efforts behind it - and hopefully not
> just to create a couple of alphas, betas, etc.
>
> BR,
>
> ./alex
> --
> .w( the_mindstorm )p.
> :: OSS Evangelist ::
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [S2] XWork Status Quo
Posted by Alexandru Popescu <th...@gmail.com>.
First of all Happy New Year to everyone! .... and then a bit of a
philosophical email - something related to previous post by Rainer and
something that bothered me for the last couple of months.
Before the merge, I was spending a lot of my spare time contributing
to WW and on the XWork side along with Rainer, Jason, and occasionally
a couple of more guys. The direction was clear for everybody and
everybody knew where we are heading to. During the merge and
afterwards, I got very confused... I've seen lots of emails in the
form: "hey I've thought about this incredible idea, how does it
sound?... oh by the way I have already implemented it... (and as a
side note it changes everything you knew about the underlying
pieces)". At this point I have stepped back a bit and I have started
to just watch because I HAD NO IDEA where we want to go - and not the
generic answers. There are lots of discussions about alphas, betas,
GAs, etc releases but I haven't seen a single one that would qualify
itself to be promoted to final users.
Now I see Rainer asking for help and I tend to see the reasons why.
And as always I would be happy to help, but I frankly would like to
see what the intentions are. Because, once again, I would like to
understand why I would put my efforts behind it - and hopefully not
just to create a couple of alphas, betas, etc.
BR,
./alex
--
.w( the_mindstorm )p.
:: OSS Evangelist ::
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [S2] XWork Status Quo
Posted by Rainer Hermanns <he...@aixcept.de>.
Ted,
I just setup the requested forums for XWork:
http://forums.opensymphony.com/category.jspa?categoryID=19
Next step is to setup the mailing lists. We still use the java.net
infrastructure for our mailing lists.
I need karma to add those mailing lists and setup (Pinging Jason/
Patrick for karma).
Commit mails for xwork are on my todo list as well.
Regarding the releases as GA/beta/alpha quality and milestone based
ones I could do a final-beta-quality release later today.
This would be based on the latest RC1 and additional changes Don/Toby
made in the past days.
I would call it version 2.0.0, but with RC/beta quality, cause lots
of documentation is still missing.
More infos to come as soon as I get feedback from Pat/Jason and the
other xwork developers.
tia,
Rainer
Am 01.01.2007 um 22:11 schrieb Ted Husted:
> On 12/31/06, Rainer Hermanns <he...@aixcept.de> wrote:
>> Thoughts?
>
> I think the way to address any problems with XWork involvement is to
> followup on Patrick's post and create the usual project
> infrastructure: A user list, a dev list, and a commits lists for the
> automatic posts from Subversion, JIRA, and Confluence.
>
> I also think it would be helpful if we distributed the bits and let
> the community decide if the they are GA or not. It's fine to have a
> roadmap, but a roadmap is artificial. The map is not the land. If the
> community tells us the bits are ready for primetime, then we should
> not let a roadmap stand in the way of a "General Availability"
> release.
>
> Documentation is a great way to build community, but we don't deploy
> documentation. Meanwhile, the quickest way to destroy community is to
> never create a production-ready release, which is what is happening
> now.
>
> So, please, lets setup the usual lists for XWork, and dub the next
> XWork 2 distribution XWork 2.0.3. Then we can distribute it with
> Struts 2.0.3, and let the community tell us if the bits are ready for
> primetime or not.
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [S2] XWork Status Quo
Posted by Philip Luppens <ph...@gmail.com>.
Where would these mailing list/forum/chat/.. be located ? I can create an
XWork forum over at OpenSymphony in a moment, but I think we need Patrick to
set up the mailing list (but we can sync to an apache mailing list as well).
Would it be better to go for XWork 2 or an XWork forum in general ? With all
this Apache/OS crossing, I could use a little guidance if you guys want me
to do something useful.
Happy 2007 everyone,
Phil
On 1/1/07, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 12/31/06, Rainer Hermanns <he...@aixcept.de> wrote:
> > Thoughts?
>
> I think the way to address any problems with XWork involvement is to
> followup on Patrick's post and create the usual project
> infrastructure: A user list, a dev list, and a commits lists for the
> automatic posts from Subversion, JIRA, and Confluence.
>
> I also think it would be helpful if we distributed the bits and let
> the community decide if the they are GA or not. It's fine to have a
> roadmap, but a roadmap is artificial. The map is not the land. If the
> community tells us the bits are ready for primetime, then we should
> not let a roadmap stand in the way of a "General Availability"
> release.
>
> Documentation is a great way to build community, but we don't deploy
> documentation. Meanwhile, the quickest way to destroy community is to
> never create a production-ready release, which is what is happening
> now.
>
> So, please, lets setup the usual lists for XWork, and dub the next
> XWork 2 distribution XWork 2.0.3. Then we can distribute it with
> Struts 2.0.3, and let the community tell us if the bits are ready for
> primetime or not.
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
iDTV System Engineer
"Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code will be a
violent psychopath who knows where you live." - John F. Woods
Re: [S2] XWork Status Quo
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 12/31/06, Rainer Hermanns <he...@aixcept.de> wrote:
> Thoughts?
I think the way to address any problems with XWork involvement is to
followup on Patrick's post and create the usual project
infrastructure: A user list, a dev list, and a commits lists for the
automatic posts from Subversion, JIRA, and Confluence.
I also think it would be helpful if we distributed the bits and let
the community decide if the they are GA or not. It's fine to have a
roadmap, but a roadmap is artificial. The map is not the land. If the
community tells us the bits are ready for primetime, then we should
not let a roadmap stand in the way of a "General Availability"
release.
Documentation is a great way to build community, but we don't deploy
documentation. Meanwhile, the quickest way to destroy community is to
never create a production-ready release, which is what is happening
now.
So, please, lets setup the usual lists for XWork, and dub the next
XWork 2 distribution XWork 2.0.3. Then we can distribute it with
Struts 2.0.3, and let the community tell us if the bits are ready for
primetime or not.
-Ted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [S2] XWork Status Quo
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
> I am willing and spending lots of my free time on Struts 2, XWork and
> (still) WebWork 2.2.X. to bring this projects to high quality products as
> lots of the other developers are doing, but I need more feedback to get
> more of the envolved developers in. There are some open issues in Jira
> where I call for feedback, but did not get any input.
My perspective is that we are creating and maintaining the framework
that we *want* to use to create our own applications. Experience has
proven that we can create a better framework by working together than
any of us can create working apart.
We work hard to make the framework accessible to other developers, in
the hope that some of those developers will join us. We distribute the
framework to the general public, but the general public is not our
customer. Our customers are the volunteers who contribute back to the
framework. The general public are prospective customers, some of which
become customers by working with other users on the mailing lists,
filing issues, submitting patches, and helping to make the framework
better.
We tag a build "General Availability" when we feel that the bits hold
no surprises and the product is ready for the general public to put
into production. Note that we don't mark it "final" or "stable", or in
any way say that we are done. We just say it's ready for public
consumption.
If we help people on the lists, if we apply patches that people
submit, if we invite contributors to join us, if we create a safe
place where people can discuss and improve the product, then quality
take cares if itself. And, best of all, we don't have to do all the
work ourselves.
-Ted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org