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Posted to dev@flink.apache.org by Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com> on 2020/06/05 03:13:58 UTC
Re: [DISCUSS] Releasing "fat" and "slim" Flink distributions
Hi all,
Considering that 1.11 will be released soon, what about my previous
proposal? Put flink-csv, flink-json and flink-avro under lib.
These three formats are very small and no third party dependence, and they
are widely used by table users.
Best,
Jingsong Lee
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:19 PM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for your discussion.
>
> Sorry to start discussing another thing:
>
> The biggest problem I see is the variety of problems caused by users' lack
> of format dependency.
> As Aljoscha said, these three formats are very small and no third party
> dependence, and they are widely used by table users.
> Actually, we don't have any other built-in table formats now... In total
> 151K...
>
> 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
>
> So, Can we just put them into "lib/" or flink-table-uber?
> It not solve all problems and maybe it is independent of "fat" and "slim".
> But also improve usability.
> What do you think? Any objections?
>
> Best,
> Jingsong Lee
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:48 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> One downside would be that we're shipping more stuff when running on
>> YARN for example, since the entire plugins directory is shiped by default.
>>
>> On 17/04/2020 16:38, Stephan Ewen wrote:
>> > @Aljoscha I think that is an interesting line of thinking. the swift-fs
>> may
>> > be rarely enough used to move it to an optional download.
>> >
>> > I would still drop two more thoughts:
>> >
>> > (1) Now that we have plugins support, is there a reason to have a
>> metrics
>> > reporter or file system in /opt instead of /plugins? They don't spoil
>> the
>> > class path any more.
>> >
>> > (2) I can imagine there still being a desire to have a "minimal" docker
>> > file, for users that want to keep the container images as small as
>> > possible, to speed up deployment. It is fine if that would not be the
>> > default, though.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:16 PM Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think having such tools and/or tailor-made distributions can be nice
>> >> but I also think the discussion is missing the main point: The initial
>> >> observation/motivation is that apparently a lot of users (Kurt and I
>> >> talked about this) on the chinese DingTalk support groups, and other
>> >> support channels have problems when first using the SQL client because
>> >> of these missing connectors/formats. For these, having additional tools
>> >> would not solve anything because they would also not take that extra
>> >> step. I think that even tiny friction should be avoided because the
>> >> annoyance from it accumulates of the (hopefully) many users that we
>> want
>> >> to have.
>> >>
>> >> Maybe we should take a step back from discussing the "fat"/"slim" idea
>> >> and instead think about the composition of the current dist. As
>> >> mentioned we have these jars in opt/:
>> >>
>> >> 17M flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 52K flink-cep-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 180K flink-cep_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 746K flink-gelly-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 626K flink-gelly_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 512K flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 159K flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 1.0M flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 102K flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 10K flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 12K flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 36M flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 28M flink-python_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 22K flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 18M flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 31M flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 196K flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
>> >> 518K flink-sql-client_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 99K flink-state-processor-api_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 25M flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 160M opt
>> >>
>> >> The "filesystem" connectors ar ethe heavy hitters, there.
>> >>
>> >> I downloaded most of the SQL connectors/formats and this is what I got:
>> >>
>> >> 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 55K flink-hbase_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 88K flink-jdbc_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 20M flink-sql-connector-elasticsearch6_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 2.8M flink-sql-connector-kafka_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>> >> 24M sql-connectors-formats
>> >>
>> >> We could just add these to the Flink distribution without blowing it up
>> >> by much. We could drop any of the existing "filesystem" connectors from
>> >> opt and add the SQL connectors/formats and not change the size of Flink
>> >> dist. So maybe we should do that instead?
>> >>
>> >> We would need some tooling for the sql-client shell script to pick-up
>> >> the connectors/formats up from opt/ because we don't want to add them
>> to
>> >> lib/. We're already doing that for finding the flink-sql-client jar,
>> >> which is also not in lib/.
>> >>
>> >> What do you think?
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >> Aljoscha
>> >>
>> >> On 17.04.20 05:22, Jark Wu wrote:
>> >>> Hi,
>> >>>
>> >>> I like the idea of web tool to assemble fat distribution. And the
>> >>> https://code.quarkus.io/ looks very nice.
>> >>> All the users need to do is just select what he/she need (I think this
>> >> step
>> >>> can't be omitted anyway).
>> >>> We can also provide a default fat distribution on the web which
>> default
>> >>> selects some popular connectors.
>> >>>
>> >>> Best,
>> >>> Jark
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 02:29, Rafi Aroch <ra...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> As a reference for a nice first-experience I had, take a look at
>> >>>> https://code.quarkus.io/
>> >>>> You reach this page after you click "Start Coding" at the project
>> >> homepage.
>> >>>> Rafi
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:53 PM Kurt Young <yk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> I'm not saying pre-bundle some jars will make this problem go away,
>> and
>> >>>>> you're right that only hides the problem for
>> >>>>> some users. But what if this solution can hide the problem for 90%
>> >> users?
>> >>>>> Would't that be good enough for us to try?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Regarding to would users following instructions really be such a big
>> >>>>> problem?
>> >>>>> I'm afraid yes. Otherwise I won't answer such questions for at
>> least a
>> >>>>> dozen times and I won't see such questions coming
>> >>>>> up from time to time. During some periods, I even saw such questions
>> >>>> every
>> >>>>> day.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Best,
>> >>>>> Kurt
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:21 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>> chesnay@apache.org>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> The problem with having a distribution with "popular" stuff is
>> that it
>> >>>>>> doesn't really *solve* a problem, it just hides it for users who
>> fall
>> >>>>>> into these particular use-cases.
>> >>>>>> Move out of it and you once again run into exact same problems
>> >>>> out-lined.
>> >>>>>> This is exactly why I like the tooling approach; you have to deal
>> with
>> >>>> it
>> >>>>>> from the start and transitioning to a custom use-case is easier.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Would users following instructions really be such a big problem?
>> >>>>>> I would expect that users generally know *what *they need, just not
>> >>>>>> necessarily how it is assembled correctly (where do get which jar,
>> >>>> which
>> >>>>>> directory to put it in).
>> >>>>>> It seems like these are exactly the problem this would solve?
>> >>>>>> I just don't see how moving a jar corresponding to some feature
>> from
>> >>>> opt
>> >>>>>> to some directory (lib/plugins) is less error-prone than just
>> >> selecting
>> >>>>> the
>> >>>>>> feature and having the tool handle the rest.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> As for re-distributions, it depends on the form that the tool would
>> >>>> take.
>> >>>>>> It could be an application that runs locally and works against
>> maven
>> >>>>>> central (note: not necessarily *using* maven); this should would
>> work
>> >>>> in
>> >>>>>> China, no?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> A web tool would of course be fancy, but I don't know how feasible
>> >> this
>> >>>>> is
>> >>>>>> with the ASF infrastructure.
>> >>>>>> You wouldn't be able to mirror the distribution, so the load can't
>> be
>> >>>>>> distributed. I doubt INFRA would like this.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Note that third-parties could also start distributing use-case
>> >> oriented
>> >>>>>> distributions, which would be perfectly fine as far as I'm
>> concerned.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 16/04/2020 16:57, Kurt Young wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'm not so sure about the web tool solution though. The concern I
>> have
>> >>>>> for
>> >>>>>> this approach is the final generated
>> >>>>>> distribution is kind of non-deterministic. We might generate too
>> many
>> >>>>>> different combinations when user trying to
>> >>>>>> package different types of connector, format, and even maybe hadoop
>> >>>>>> releases. As far as I can tell, most open
>> >>>>>> source projects and apache projects will only release some
>> >>>>>> pre-defined distributions, which most users are already
>> >>>>>> familiar with, thus hard to change IMO. And I also have went
>> through
>> >> in
>> >>>>>> some cases, users will try to re-distribute
>> >>>>>> the release package, because of the unstable network of apache
>> website
>> >>>>> from
>> >>>>>> China. In web tool solution, I don't
>> >>>>>> think this kind of re-distribution would be possible anymore.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> In the meantime, I also have a concern that we will fall back into
>> our
>> >>>>> trap
>> >>>>>> again if we try to offer this smart & flexible
>> >>>>>> solution. Because it needs users to cooperate with such mechanism.
>> >> It's
>> >>>>>> exactly the situation what we currently fell
>> >>>>>> into:
>> >>>>>> 1. We offered a smart solution.
>> >>>>>> 2. We hope users will follow the correct instructions.
>> >>>>>> 3. Everything will work as expected if users followed the right
>> >>>>>> instructions.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> In reality, I suspect not all users will do the second step
>> correctly.
>> >>>>> And
>> >>>>>> for new users who only trying to have a quick
>> >>>>>> experience with Flink, I would bet most users will do it wrong.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So, my proposal would be one of the following 2 options:
>> >>>>>> 1. Provide a slim distribution for advanced product users and
>> provide
>> >> a
>> >>>>>> distribution which will have some popular builtin jars.
>> >>>>>> 2. Only provide a distribution which will have some popular builtin
>> >>>> jars.
>> >>>>>> If we are trying to reduce the distributions we released, I would
>> >>>> prefer
>> >>>>> 2
>> >>>>>> 1.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>> Kurt
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:33 PM Till Rohrmann <
>> trohrmann@apache.org>
>> >> <
>> >>>>> trohrmann@apache.org> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I think what Chesnay and Dawid proposed would be the ideal
>> solution.
>> >>>>>> Ideally, we would also have a nice web tool for the website which
>> >>>>> generates
>> >>>>>> the corresponding distribution for download.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> To get things started we could start with only supporting to
>> >>>>>> download/creating the "fat" version with the script. The fat
>> version
>> >>>>> would
>> >>>>>> then consist of the slim distribution and whatever we deem
>> important
>> >>>> for
>> >>>>>> new users to get started.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>>> Till
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:33 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <
>> >>>>> dwysakowicz@apache.org> <dw...@apache.org>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hi all,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Few points from my side:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 1. I like the idea of simplifying the experience for first time
>> users.
>> >>>>>> As for production use cases I share Jark's opinion that in this
>> case I
>> >>>>>> would expect users to combine their distribution manually. I think
>> in
>> >>>>>> such scenarios it is important to understand interconnections.
>> >>>>>> Personally I'd expect the slimmest possible distribution that I can
>> >>>>>> extend further with what I need in my production scenario.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 2. I think there is also the problem that the matrix of possible
>> >>>>>> combinations that can be useful is already big. Do we want to have
>> a
>> >>>>>> distribution for:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> SQL users: which connectors should we include? should we
>> include
>> >>>>>> hive? which other catalog?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> DataStream users: which connectors should we include?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> For both of the above should we include yarn/kubernetes?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I would opt for providing only the "slim" distribution as a release
>> >>>>>> artifact.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 3. However, as I said I think its worth investigating how we can
>> >>>> improve
>> >>>>>> users experience. What do you think of providing a tool, could be
>> e.g.
>> >>>> a
>> >>>>>> shell script that constructs a distribution based on users choice.
>> I
>> >>>>>> think that was also what Chesnay mentioned as "tooling to
>> >>>>>> assemble custom distributions" In the end how I see the difference
>> >>>>>> between a slim and fat distribution is which jars do we put into
>> the
>> >>>>>> lib, right? It could have a few "screens".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 1. Which API are you interested in:
>> >>>>>> a. SQL API
>> >>>>>> b. DataStream API
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 2. [SQL] Which connectors do you want to use? [multichoice]:
>> >>>>>> a. Kafka
>> >>>>>> b. Elasticsearch
>> >>>>>> ...
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 3. [SQL] Which catalog you want to use?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ...
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Such a tool would download all the dependencies from maven and put
>> >> them
>> >>>>>> into the correct folder. In the future we can extend it with
>> >> additional
>> >>>>>> rules e.g. kafka-0.9 cannot be chosen at the same time with
>> >>>>>> kafka-universal etc.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The benefit of it would be that the distribution that we release
>> could
>> >>>>>> remain "slim" or we could even make it slimmer. I might be missing
>> >>>>>> something here though.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dawdi
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 16/04/2020 11:02, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I want to reinforce my opinion from earlier: This is about
>> improving
>> >>>>>> the situation both for first-time users and for experienced users
>> that
>> >>>>>> want to use a Flink dist in production. The current Flink dist is
>> too
>> >>>>>> "thin" for first-time SQL users and it is too "fat" for production
>> >>>>>> users, that is where serving no-one properly with the current
>> >>>>>> middle-ground. That's why I think introducing those specialized
>> >>>>>> "spins" of Flink dist would be good.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> By the way, at some point in the future production users might not
>> >>>>>> even need to get a Flink dist anymore. They should be able to have
>> >>>>>> Flink as a dependency of their project (including the runtime) and
>> >>>>>> then build an image from this for Kubernetes or a fat jar for YARN.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Aljoscha
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 15.04.20 18:14, wenlong.lwl wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hi all,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Regarding slim and fat distributions, I think different kinds of
>> jobs
>> >>>>>> may
>> >>>>>> prefer different type of distribution:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> For DataStream job, I think we may not like fat distribution
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> containing
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> connectors because user would always need to depend on the
>> connector
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> user code, it is easy to include the connector jar in the user lib.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Less
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> jar in lib means less class conflicts and problems.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> For SQL job, I think we are trying to encourage user to user pure
>> >>>>>> sql(DDL +
>> >>>>>> DML) to construct their job, In order to improve user experience,
>> It
>> >>>>>> may be
>> >>>>>> important for flink, not only providing as many connector jar in
>> >>>>>> distribution as possible especially the connector and format we
>> have
>> >>>>>> well
>> >>>>>> documented, but also providing an mechanism to load connectors
>> >>>>>> according
>> >>>>>> to the DDLs,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So I think it could be good to place connector/format jars in some
>> >>>>>> dir like
>> >>>>>> opt/connector which would not affect jobs by default, and
>> introduce a
>> >>>>>> mechanism of dynamic discovery for SQL.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>> Wenlong
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 22:46, Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>> <
>> >>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hi,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I am thinking both "improve first experience" and "improve
>> production
>> >>>>>> experience".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'm thinking about what's the common mode of Flink?
>> >>>>>> Streaming job use Kafka? Batch job use Hive?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hive 1.2.1 dependencies can be compatible with most of Hive server
>> >>>>>> versions. So Spark and Presto have built-in Hive 1.2.1 dependency.
>> >>>>>> Flink is currently mainly used for streaming, so let's not talk
>> >>>>>> about hive.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> For streaming jobs, first of all, the jobs in my mind is (related
>> to
>> >>>>>> connectors):
>> >>>>>> - ETL jobs: Kafka -> Kafka
>> >>>>>> - Join jobs: Kafka -> DimJDBC -> Kafka
>> >>>>>> - Aggregation jobs: Kafka -> JDBCSink
>> >>>>>> So Kafka and JDBC are probably the most commonly used. Of course,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> also
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> includes CSV, JSON's formats.
>> >>>>>> So when we provide such a fat distribution:
>> >>>>>> - With CSV, JSON.
>> >>>>>> - With flink-kafka-universal and kafka dependencies.
>> >>>>>> - With flink-jdbc.
>> >>>>>> Using this fat distribution, most users can run their jobs well.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> (jdbc
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> driver jar required, but this is very natural to do)
>> >>>>>> Can these dependencies lead to kinds of conflicts? Only Kafka may
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> conflicts, but if our goal is to use kafka-universal to support all
>> >>>>>> Kafka
>> >>>>>> versions, it is hopeful to target the vast majority of users.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> We don't want to plug all jars into the fat distribution. Only need
>> >>>>>> less
>> >>>>>> conflict and common. of course, it is a matter of consideration to
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> put
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> which jar into fat distribution.
>> >>>>>> We have the opportunity to facilitate the majority of users, but
>> >>>>>> also left
>> >>>>>> opportunities for customization.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>> Jingsong Lee
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:09 PM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> <
>> >>>>> imjark@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hi,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I think we should first reach an consensus on "what problem do we
>> >>>>>> want to
>> >>>>>> solve?"
>> >>>>>> (1) improve first experience? or (2) improve production experience?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> As far as I can see, with the above discussion, I think what we
>> >>>>>> want to
>> >>>>>> solve is the "first experience".
>> >>>>>> And I think the slim jar is still the best distribution for
>> >>>>>> production,
>> >>>>>> because it's easier to assembling jars
>> >>>>>> than excluding jars and can avoid potential class conflicts.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If we want to improve "first experience", I think it make sense to
>> >>>>>> have a
>> >>>>>> fat distribution to give users a more smooth first experience.
>> >>>>>> But I would like to call it "playground distribution" or something
>> >>>>>> like
>> >>>>>> that to explicitly differ from the "slim production-purpose
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> distribution".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The "playground distribution" can contains some widely used jars,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> like
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> universal-kafka-sql-connector, elasticsearch7-sql-connector, avro,
>> >>>>>> json,
>> >>>>>> csv, etc..
>> >>>>>> Even we can provide a playground docker which may contain the fat
>> >>>>>> distribution, python3, and hive.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>> Jark
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 21:47, Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> <
>> >>>>> chesnay@apache.org>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I don't see a lot of value in having multiple distributions.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> The simple reality is that no fat distribution we could provide
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> would
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> satisfy all use-cases, so why even try.
>> >>>>>> If users commonly run into issues for certain jars, then maybe
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> those
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> should be added to the current distribution.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Personally though I still believe we should only distribute a slim
>> >>>>>> version. I'd rather have users always add required jars to the
>> >>>>>> distribution than only when they go outside our "expected"
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> use-cases.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Then we might finally address this issue properly, i.e., tooling to
>> >>>>>> assemble custom distributions and/or better error messages if
>> >>>>>> Flink-provided extensions cannot be found.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 15/04/2020 15:23, Kurt Young wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Regarding to the specific solution, I'm not sure about the "fat"
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> "slim"
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> solution though. I get the idea
>> >>>>>> that we can make the slim one even more lightweight than current
>> >>>>>> distribution, but what about the "fat"
>> >>>>>> one? Do you mean that we would package all connectors and formats
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> into
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> this? I'm not sure if this is
>> >>>>>> feasible. For example, we can't put all versions of kafka and hive
>> >>>>>> connector jars into lib directory, and
>> >>>>>> we also might need hadoop jars when using filesystem connector to
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> access
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> data from HDFS.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> So my guess would be we might hand-pick some of the most
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> frequently
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> used
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> connectors and formats
>> >>>>>> into our "lib" directory, like kafka, csv, json metioned above,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> still
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> leave some other connectors out of it.
>> >>>>>> If this is the case, then why not we just provide this
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> distribution
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> user? I'm not sure i get the benefit of
>> >>>>>> providing another super "slim" jar (we have to pay some costs to
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> provide
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> another suit of distribution).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> What do you think?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>> Kurt
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Jingsong Li <
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Big +1.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I like "fat" and "slim".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> For csv and json, like Jark said, they are quite small and don't
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> other
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> dependencies. They are important to kafka connector, and
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> important
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> to upcoming file system connector too.
>> >>>>>> So can we move them to both "fat" and "slim"? They're so
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> important,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> they're so lightweight.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>> Jingsong Lee
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 4:53 PM godfrey he <go...@gmail.com> <
>> >>>>> godfreyhe@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Big +1.
>> >>>>>> This will improve user experience (special for Flink new users).
>> >>>>>> We answered so many questions about "class not found".
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>> Godfrey
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dian Fu <di...@gmail.com> <di...@gmail.com>
>> 于2020年4月15日周三
>> >>>>> 下午4:30写道：
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> +1 to this proposal.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Missing connector jars is also a big problem for PyFlink users.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Currently,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> after a Python user has installed PyFlink using `pip`, he has
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> manually
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> copy the connector fat jars to the PyFlink installation
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> directory
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> connectors to be used if he wants to run jobs locally. This
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> process
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> very
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> confuse for users and affects the experience a lot.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Regards,
>> >>>>>> Dian
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 在 2020年4月15日，下午3:51，Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> <im...@gmail.com>
>> 写道：
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> +1 to the proposal. I also found the "download additional jar"
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> step
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> really verbose when I prepare webinars.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> At least, I think the flink-csv and flink-json should in the
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> distribution,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> they are quite small and don't have other dependencies.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>> Jark
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 15:44, Jeff Zhang <zj...@gmail.com> <
>> >>>>> zjffdu@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hi Aljoscha,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Big +1 for the fat flink distribution, where do you plan to
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> put
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> these
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> connectors ? opt or lib ?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> <al...@apache.org>
>> >>>>> 于2020年4月15日周三
>> >>>>>> 下午3:30写道：
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I'd like to discuss about releasing a more full-featured
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Flink
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> distribution. The motivation is that there is friction for
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> SQL/Table
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> API
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> users that want to use Table connectors which are not there
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> current Flink Distribution. For these users the workflow is
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> currently
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> roughly:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> - download Flink dist
>> >>>>>> - configure csv/Kafka/json connectors per configuration
>> >>>>>> - run SQL client or program
>> >>>>>> - decrypt error message and research the solution
>> >>>>>> - download additional connector jars
>> >>>>>> - program works correctly
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I realize that this can be made to work but if every SQL
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> user
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> has
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> this
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> as their first experience that doesn't seem good to me.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> My proposal is to provide two versions of the Flink
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Distribution
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> future: "fat" and "slim" (names to be discussed):
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> - slim would be even trimmer than todays distribution
>> >>>>>> - fat would contain a lot of convenience connectors (yet
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> be
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> determined which one)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> And yes, I realize that there are already more dimensions of
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Flink
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> releases (Scala version and Java version).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> For background, our current Flink dist has these in the opt
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> directory:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> - flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-cep-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-cep_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-gelly-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-gelly_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-python_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> -
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> - flink-sql-client_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-state-processor-api_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>> - flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Current Flink dist is 267M. If we removed everything from
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> opt
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> we
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> would
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> go down to 126M. I would reccomend this, because the large
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> majority
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> the files in opt are probably unused.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> What do you think?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Best,
>> >>>>>> Aljoscha
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> Best Regards
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Jeff Zhang
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Best, Jingsong Lee
>
--
Best, Jingsong Lee
Re: [DISCUSS] Releasing "fat" and "slim" Flink distributions
Posted by Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com>.
+1 to add these 3 formast into dist, under the lib/ directory.
This is a worth trying step toward better usability for SQL users.
They don't have *any* dependencies and very small, so I think it's safe to
add them.
Best,
Jark
On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 at 11:14, Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Considering that 1.11 will be released soon, what about my previous
> proposal? Put flink-csv, flink-json and flink-avro under lib.
> These three formats are very small and no third party dependence, and they
> are widely used by table users.
>
> Best,
> Jingsong Lee
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:19 PM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your discussion.
> >
> > Sorry to start discussing another thing:
> >
> > The biggest problem I see is the variety of problems caused by users'
> lack
> > of format dependency.
> > As Aljoscha said, these three formats are very small and no third party
> > dependence, and they are widely used by table users.
> > Actually, we don't have any other built-in table formats now... In total
> > 151K...
> >
> > 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> > 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> > 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
> >
> > So, Can we just put them into "lib/" or flink-table-uber?
> > It not solve all problems and maybe it is independent of "fat" and
> "slim".
> > But also improve usability.
> > What do you think? Any objections?
> >
> > Best,
> > Jingsong Lee
> >
> > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:48 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> One downside would be that we're shipping more stuff when running on
> >> YARN for example, since the entire plugins directory is shiped by
> default.
> >>
> >> On 17/04/2020 16:38, Stephan Ewen wrote:
> >> > @Aljoscha I think that is an interesting line of thinking. the
> swift-fs
> >> may
> >> > be rarely enough used to move it to an optional download.
> >> >
> >> > I would still drop two more thoughts:
> >> >
> >> > (1) Now that we have plugins support, is there a reason to have a
> >> metrics
> >> > reporter or file system in /opt instead of /plugins? They don't spoil
> >> the
> >> > class path any more.
> >> >
> >> > (2) I can imagine there still being a desire to have a "minimal"
> docker
> >> > file, for users that want to keep the container images as small as
> >> > possible, to speed up deployment. It is fine if that would not be the
> >> > default, though.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:16 PM Aljoscha Krettek <
> aljoscha@apache.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I think having such tools and/or tailor-made distributions can be
> nice
> >> >> but I also think the discussion is missing the main point: The
> initial
> >> >> observation/motivation is that apparently a lot of users (Kurt and I
> >> >> talked about this) on the chinese DingTalk support groups, and other
> >> >> support channels have problems when first using the SQL client
> because
> >> >> of these missing connectors/formats. For these, having additional
> tools
> >> >> would not solve anything because they would also not take that extra
> >> >> step. I think that even tiny friction should be avoided because the
> >> >> annoyance from it accumulates of the (hopefully) many users that we
> >> want
> >> >> to have.
> >> >>
> >> >> Maybe we should take a step back from discussing the "fat"/"slim"
> idea
> >> >> and instead think about the composition of the current dist. As
> >> >> mentioned we have these jars in opt/:
> >> >>
> >> >> 17M flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 52K flink-cep-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 180K flink-cep_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 746K flink-gelly-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 626K flink-gelly_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 512K flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 159K flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 1.0M flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 102K flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 10K flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 12K flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 36M flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 28M flink-python_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 22K flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 18M flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 31M flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 196K flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> >> >> 518K flink-sql-client_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 99K flink-state-processor-api_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 25M flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 160M opt
> >> >>
> >> >> The "filesystem" connectors ar ethe heavy hitters, there.
> >> >>
> >> >> I downloaded most of the SQL connectors/formats and this is what I
> got:
> >> >>
> >> >> 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 55K flink-hbase_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 88K flink-jdbc_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 20M flink-sql-connector-elasticsearch6_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 2.8M flink-sql-connector-kafka_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >> >> 24M sql-connectors-formats
> >> >>
> >> >> We could just add these to the Flink distribution without blowing it
> up
> >> >> by much. We could drop any of the existing "filesystem" connectors
> from
> >> >> opt and add the SQL connectors/formats and not change the size of
> Flink
> >> >> dist. So maybe we should do that instead?
> >> >>
> >> >> We would need some tooling for the sql-client shell script to pick-up
> >> >> the connectors/formats up from opt/ because we don't want to add them
> >> to
> >> >> lib/. We're already doing that for finding the flink-sql-client jar,
> >> >> which is also not in lib/.
> >> >>
> >> >> What do you think?
> >> >>
> >> >> Best,
> >> >> Aljoscha
> >> >>
> >> >> On 17.04.20 05:22, Jark Wu wrote:
> >> >>> Hi,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I like the idea of web tool to assemble fat distribution. And the
> >> >>> https://code.quarkus.io/ looks very nice.
> >> >>> All the users need to do is just select what he/she need (I think
> this
> >> >> step
> >> >>> can't be omitted anyway).
> >> >>> We can also provide a default fat distribution on the web which
> >> default
> >> >>> selects some popular connectors.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Best,
> >> >>> Jark
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 02:29, Rafi Aroch <ra...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> As a reference for a nice first-experience I had, take a look at
> >> >>>> https://code.quarkus.io/
> >> >>>> You reach this page after you click "Start Coding" at the project
> >> >> homepage.
> >> >>>> Rafi
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:53 PM Kurt Young <yk...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> I'm not saying pre-bundle some jars will make this problem go
> away,
> >> and
> >> >>>>> you're right that only hides the problem for
> >> >>>>> some users. But what if this solution can hide the problem for 90%
> >> >> users?
> >> >>>>> Would't that be good enough for us to try?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Regarding to would users following instructions really be such a
> big
> >> >>>>> problem?
> >> >>>>> I'm afraid yes. Otherwise I won't answer such questions for at
> >> least a
> >> >>>>> dozen times and I won't see such questions coming
> >> >>>>> up from time to time. During some periods, I even saw such
> questions
> >> >>>> every
> >> >>>>> day.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Best,
> >> >>>>> Kurt
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:21 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> >> chesnay@apache.org>
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The problem with having a distribution with "popular" stuff is
> >> that it
> >> >>>>>> doesn't really *solve* a problem, it just hides it for users who
> >> fall
> >> >>>>>> into these particular use-cases.
> >> >>>>>> Move out of it and you once again run into exact same problems
> >> >>>> out-lined.
> >> >>>>>> This is exactly why I like the tooling approach; you have to deal
> >> with
> >> >>>> it
> >> >>>>>> from the start and transitioning to a custom use-case is easier.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Would users following instructions really be such a big problem?
> >> >>>>>> I would expect that users generally know *what *they need, just
> not
> >> >>>>>> necessarily how it is assembled correctly (where do get which
> jar,
> >> >>>> which
> >> >>>>>> directory to put it in).
> >> >>>>>> It seems like these are exactly the problem this would solve?
> >> >>>>>> I just don't see how moving a jar corresponding to some feature
> >> from
> >> >>>> opt
> >> >>>>>> to some directory (lib/plugins) is less error-prone than just
> >> >> selecting
> >> >>>>> the
> >> >>>>>> feature and having the tool handle the rest.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> As for re-distributions, it depends on the form that the tool
> would
> >> >>>> take.
> >> >>>>>> It could be an application that runs locally and works against
> >> maven
> >> >>>>>> central (note: not necessarily *using* maven); this should would
> >> work
> >> >>>> in
> >> >>>>>> China, no?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> A web tool would of course be fancy, but I don't know how
> feasible
> >> >> this
> >> >>>>> is
> >> >>>>>> with the ASF infrastructure.
> >> >>>>>> You wouldn't be able to mirror the distribution, so the load
> can't
> >> be
> >> >>>>>> distributed. I doubt INFRA would like this.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Note that third-parties could also start distributing use-case
> >> >> oriented
> >> >>>>>> distributions, which would be perfectly fine as far as I'm
> >> concerned.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On 16/04/2020 16:57, Kurt Young wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I'm not so sure about the web tool solution though. The concern I
> >> have
> >> >>>>> for
> >> >>>>>> this approach is the final generated
> >> >>>>>> distribution is kind of non-deterministic. We might generate too
> >> many
> >> >>>>>> different combinations when user trying to
> >> >>>>>> package different types of connector, format, and even maybe
> hadoop
> >> >>>>>> releases. As far as I can tell, most open
> >> >>>>>> source projects and apache projects will only release some
> >> >>>>>> pre-defined distributions, which most users are already
> >> >>>>>> familiar with, thus hard to change IMO. And I also have went
> >> through
> >> >> in
> >> >>>>>> some cases, users will try to re-distribute
> >> >>>>>> the release package, because of the unstable network of apache
> >> website
> >> >>>>> from
> >> >>>>>> China. In web tool solution, I don't
> >> >>>>>> think this kind of re-distribution would be possible anymore.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> In the meantime, I also have a concern that we will fall back
> into
> >> our
> >> >>>>> trap
> >> >>>>>> again if we try to offer this smart & flexible
> >> >>>>>> solution. Because it needs users to cooperate with such
> mechanism.
> >> >> It's
> >> >>>>>> exactly the situation what we currently fell
> >> >>>>>> into:
> >> >>>>>> 1. We offered a smart solution.
> >> >>>>>> 2. We hope users will follow the correct instructions.
> >> >>>>>> 3. Everything will work as expected if users followed the right
> >> >>>>>> instructions.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> In reality, I suspect not all users will do the second step
> >> correctly.
> >> >>>>> And
> >> >>>>>> for new users who only trying to have a quick
> >> >>>>>> experience with Flink, I would bet most users will do it wrong.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> So, my proposal would be one of the following 2 options:
> >> >>>>>> 1. Provide a slim distribution for advanced product users and
> >> provide
> >> >> a
> >> >>>>>> distribution which will have some popular builtin jars.
> >> >>>>>> 2. Only provide a distribution which will have some popular
> builtin
> >> >>>> jars.
> >> >>>>>> If we are trying to reduce the distributions we released, I would
> >> >>>> prefer
> >> >>>>> 2
> >> >>>>>> 1.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best,
> >> >>>>>> Kurt
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:33 PM Till Rohrmann <
> >> trohrmann@apache.org>
> >> >> <
> >> >>>>> trohrmann@apache.org> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I think what Chesnay and Dawid proposed would be the ideal
> >> solution.
> >> >>>>>> Ideally, we would also have a nice web tool for the website which
> >> >>>>> generates
> >> >>>>>> the corresponding distribution for download.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> To get things started we could start with only supporting to
> >> >>>>>> download/creating the "fat" version with the script. The fat
> >> version
> >> >>>>> would
> >> >>>>>> then consist of the slim distribution and whatever we deem
> >> important
> >> >>>> for
> >> >>>>>> new users to get started.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >> >>>>>> Till
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:33 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <
> >> >>>>> dwysakowicz@apache.org> <dw...@apache.org>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Hi all,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Few points from my side:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> 1. I like the idea of simplifying the experience for first time
> >> users.
> >> >>>>>> As for production use cases I share Jark's opinion that in this
> >> case I
> >> >>>>>> would expect users to combine their distribution manually. I
> think
> >> in
> >> >>>>>> such scenarios it is important to understand interconnections.
> >> >>>>>> Personally I'd expect the slimmest possible distribution that I
> can
> >> >>>>>> extend further with what I need in my production scenario.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> 2. I think there is also the problem that the matrix of possible
> >> >>>>>> combinations that can be useful is already big. Do we want to
> have
> >> a
> >> >>>>>> distribution for:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> SQL users: which connectors should we include? should we
> >> include
> >> >>>>>> hive? which other catalog?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> DataStream users: which connectors should we include?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> For both of the above should we include yarn/kubernetes?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I would opt for providing only the "slim" distribution as a
> release
> >> >>>>>> artifact.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> 3. However, as I said I think its worth investigating how we can
> >> >>>> improve
> >> >>>>>> users experience. What do you think of providing a tool, could be
> >> e.g.
> >> >>>> a
> >> >>>>>> shell script that constructs a distribution based on users
> choice.
> >> I
> >> >>>>>> think that was also what Chesnay mentioned as "tooling to
> >> >>>>>> assemble custom distributions" In the end how I see the
> difference
> >> >>>>>> between a slim and fat distribution is which jars do we put into
> >> the
> >> >>>>>> lib, right? It could have a few "screens".
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> 1. Which API are you interested in:
> >> >>>>>> a. SQL API
> >> >>>>>> b. DataStream API
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> 2. [SQL] Which connectors do you want to use? [multichoice]:
> >> >>>>>> a. Kafka
> >> >>>>>> b. Elasticsearch
> >> >>>>>> ...
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> 3. [SQL] Which catalog you want to use?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> ...
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Such a tool would download all the dependencies from maven and
> put
> >> >> them
> >> >>>>>> into the correct folder. In the future we can extend it with
> >> >> additional
> >> >>>>>> rules e.g. kafka-0.9 cannot be chosen at the same time with
> >> >>>>>> kafka-universal etc.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The benefit of it would be that the distribution that we release
> >> could
> >> >>>>>> remain "slim" or we could even make it slimmer. I might be
> missing
> >> >>>>>> something here though.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Dawdi
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On 16/04/2020 11:02, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I want to reinforce my opinion from earlier: This is about
> >> improving
> >> >>>>>> the situation both for first-time users and for experienced users
> >> that
> >> >>>>>> want to use a Flink dist in production. The current Flink dist is
> >> too
> >> >>>>>> "thin" for first-time SQL users and it is too "fat" for
> production
> >> >>>>>> users, that is where serving no-one properly with the current
> >> >>>>>> middle-ground. That's why I think introducing those specialized
> >> >>>>>> "spins" of Flink dist would be good.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> By the way, at some point in the future production users might
> not
> >> >>>>>> even need to get a Flink dist anymore. They should be able to
> have
> >> >>>>>> Flink as a dependency of their project (including the runtime)
> and
> >> >>>>>> then build an image from this for Kubernetes or a fat jar for
> YARN.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Aljoscha
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On 15.04.20 18:14, wenlong.lwl wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Hi all,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Regarding slim and fat distributions, I think different kinds of
> >> jobs
> >> >>>>>> may
> >> >>>>>> prefer different type of distribution:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> For DataStream job, I think we may not like fat distribution
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> containing
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> connectors because user would always need to depend on the
> >> connector
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> user code, it is easy to include the connector jar in the user
> lib.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Less
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> jar in lib means less class conflicts and problems.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> For SQL job, I think we are trying to encourage user to user pure
> >> >>>>>> sql(DDL +
> >> >>>>>> DML) to construct their job, In order to improve user experience,
> >> It
> >> >>>>>> may be
> >> >>>>>> important for flink, not only providing as many connector jar in
> >> >>>>>> distribution as possible especially the connector and format we
> >> have
> >> >>>>>> well
> >> >>>>>> documented, but also providing an mechanism to load connectors
> >> >>>>>> according
> >> >>>>>> to the DDLs,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> So I think it could be good to place connector/format jars in
> some
> >> >>>>>> dir like
> >> >>>>>> opt/connector which would not affect jobs by default, and
> >> introduce a
> >> >>>>>> mechanism of dynamic discovery for SQL.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best,
> >> >>>>>> Wenlong
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 22:46, Jingsong Li <
> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> >> <
> >> >>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I am thinking both "improve first experience" and "improve
> >> production
> >> >>>>>> experience".
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I'm thinking about what's the common mode of Flink?
> >> >>>>>> Streaming job use Kafka? Batch job use Hive?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Hive 1.2.1 dependencies can be compatible with most of Hive
> server
> >> >>>>>> versions. So Spark and Presto have built-in Hive 1.2.1
> dependency.
> >> >>>>>> Flink is currently mainly used for streaming, so let's not talk
> >> >>>>>> about hive.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> For streaming jobs, first of all, the jobs in my mind is (related
> >> to
> >> >>>>>> connectors):
> >> >>>>>> - ETL jobs: Kafka -> Kafka
> >> >>>>>> - Join jobs: Kafka -> DimJDBC -> Kafka
> >> >>>>>> - Aggregation jobs: Kafka -> JDBCSink
> >> >>>>>> So Kafka and JDBC are probably the most commonly used. Of course,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> also
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> includes CSV, JSON's formats.
> >> >>>>>> So when we provide such a fat distribution:
> >> >>>>>> - With CSV, JSON.
> >> >>>>>> - With flink-kafka-universal and kafka dependencies.
> >> >>>>>> - With flink-jdbc.
> >> >>>>>> Using this fat distribution, most users can run their jobs well.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> (jdbc
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> driver jar required, but this is very natural to do)
> >> >>>>>> Can these dependencies lead to kinds of conflicts? Only Kafka may
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> have
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> conflicts, but if our goal is to use kafka-universal to support
> all
> >> >>>>>> Kafka
> >> >>>>>> versions, it is hopeful to target the vast majority of users.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> We don't want to plug all jars into the fat distribution. Only
> need
> >> >>>>>> less
> >> >>>>>> conflict and common. of course, it is a matter of consideration
> to
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> put
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> which jar into fat distribution.
> >> >>>>>> We have the opportunity to facilitate the majority of users, but
> >> >>>>>> also left
> >> >>>>>> opportunities for customization.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best,
> >> >>>>>> Jingsong Lee
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:09 PM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> <
> >> >>>>> imjark@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I think we should first reach an consensus on "what problem do we
> >> >>>>>> want to
> >> >>>>>> solve?"
> >> >>>>>> (1) improve first experience? or (2) improve production
> experience?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> As far as I can see, with the above discussion, I think what we
> >> >>>>>> want to
> >> >>>>>> solve is the "first experience".
> >> >>>>>> And I think the slim jar is still the best distribution for
> >> >>>>>> production,
> >> >>>>>> because it's easier to assembling jars
> >> >>>>>> than excluding jars and can avoid potential class conflicts.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> If we want to improve "first experience", I think it make sense
> to
> >> >>>>>> have a
> >> >>>>>> fat distribution to give users a more smooth first experience.
> >> >>>>>> But I would like to call it "playground distribution" or
> something
> >> >>>>>> like
> >> >>>>>> that to explicitly differ from the "slim production-purpose
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> distribution".
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The "playground distribution" can contains some widely used jars,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> like
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> universal-kafka-sql-connector, elasticsearch7-sql-connector,
> avro,
> >> >>>>>> json,
> >> >>>>>> csv, etc..
> >> >>>>>> Even we can provide a playground docker which may contain the fat
> >> >>>>>> distribution, python3, and hive.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best,
> >> >>>>>> Jark
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 21:47, Chesnay Schepler <
> chesnay@apache.org>
> >> <
> >> >>>>> chesnay@apache.org>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I don't see a lot of value in having multiple distributions.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The simple reality is that no fat distribution we could provide
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> would
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> satisfy all use-cases, so why even try.
> >> >>>>>> If users commonly run into issues for certain jars, then maybe
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> those
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> should be added to the current distribution.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Personally though I still believe we should only distribute a
> slim
> >> >>>>>> version. I'd rather have users always add required jars to the
> >> >>>>>> distribution than only when they go outside our "expected"
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> use-cases.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Then we might finally address this issue properly, i.e., tooling
> to
> >> >>>>>> assemble custom distributions and/or better error messages if
> >> >>>>>> Flink-provided extensions cannot be found.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On 15/04/2020 15:23, Kurt Young wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Regarding to the specific solution, I'm not sure about the "fat"
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> "slim"
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> solution though. I get the idea
> >> >>>>>> that we can make the slim one even more lightweight than current
> >> >>>>>> distribution, but what about the "fat"
> >> >>>>>> one? Do you mean that we would package all connectors and formats
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> into
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> this? I'm not sure if this is
> >> >>>>>> feasible. For example, we can't put all versions of kafka and
> hive
> >> >>>>>> connector jars into lib directory, and
> >> >>>>>> we also might need hadoop jars when using filesystem connector to
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> access
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> data from HDFS.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> So my guess would be we might hand-pick some of the most
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> frequently
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> used
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> connectors and formats
> >> >>>>>> into our "lib" directory, like kafka, csv, json metioned above,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> still
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> leave some other connectors out of it.
> >> >>>>>> If this is the case, then why not we just provide this
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> distribution
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> user? I'm not sure i get the benefit of
> >> >>>>>> providing another super "slim" jar (we have to pay some costs to
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> provide
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> another suit of distribution).
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> What do you think?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best,
> >> >>>>>> Kurt
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Jingsong Li <
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Big +1.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I like "fat" and "slim".
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> For csv and json, like Jark said, they are quite small and don't
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> have
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> other
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> dependencies. They are important to kafka connector, and
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> important
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> to upcoming file system connector too.
> >> >>>>>> So can we move them to both "fat" and "slim"? They're so
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> important,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> they're so lightweight.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best,
> >> >>>>>> Jingsong Lee
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 4:53 PM godfrey he <go...@gmail.com>
> <
> >> >>>>> godfreyhe@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Big +1.
> >> >>>>>> This will improve user experience (special for Flink new users).
> >> >>>>>> We answered so many questions about "class not found".
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best,
> >> >>>>>> Godfrey
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Dian Fu <di...@gmail.com> <di...@gmail.com>
> >> 于2020年4月15日周三
> >> >>>>> 下午4:30写道：
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> +1 to this proposal.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Missing connector jars is also a big problem for PyFlink users.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Currently,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> after a Python user has installed PyFlink using `pip`, he has
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> manually
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> copy the connector fat jars to the PyFlink installation
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> directory
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> connectors to be used if he wants to run jobs locally. This
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> process
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> very
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> confuse for users and affects the experience a lot.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Regards,
> >> >>>>>> Dian
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> 在 2020年4月15日，下午3:51，Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> <imjark@gmail.com
> >
> >> 写道：
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> +1 to the proposal. I also found the "download additional jar"
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> step
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> really verbose when I prepare webinars.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> At least, I think the flink-csv and flink-json should in the
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> distribution,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> they are quite small and don't have other dependencies.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best,
> >> >>>>>> Jark
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 15:44, Jeff Zhang <zj...@gmail.com> <
> >> >>>>> zjffdu@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Hi Aljoscha,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Big +1 for the fat flink distribution, where do you plan to
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> put
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> these
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> connectors ? opt or lib ?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> <al...@apache.org>
> >> >>>>> 于2020年4月15日周三
> >> >>>>>> 下午3:30写道：
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Hi Everyone,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I'd like to discuss about releasing a more full-featured
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Flink
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> distribution. The motivation is that there is friction for
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> SQL/Table
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> API
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> users that want to use Table connectors which are not there
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> current Flink Distribution. For these users the workflow is
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> currently
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> roughly:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> - download Flink dist
> >> >>>>>> - configure csv/Kafka/json connectors per configuration
> >> >>>>>> - run SQL client or program
> >> >>>>>> - decrypt error message and research the solution
> >> >>>>>> - download additional connector jars
> >> >>>>>> - program works correctly
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I realize that this can be made to work but if every SQL
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> user
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> has
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> this
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> as their first experience that doesn't seem good to me.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> My proposal is to provide two versions of the Flink
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Distribution
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> future: "fat" and "slim" (names to be discussed):
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> - slim would be even trimmer than todays distribution
> >> >>>>>> - fat would contain a lot of convenience connectors (yet
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> be
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> determined which one)
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> And yes, I realize that there are already more dimensions of
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Flink
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> releases (Scala version and Java version).
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> For background, our current Flink dist has these in the opt
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> directory:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> - flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-cep-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-cep_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-gelly-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-gelly_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-python_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> -
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> - flink-sql-client_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-state-processor-api_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>> - flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Current Flink dist is 267M. If we removed everything from
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> opt
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> we
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> would
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> go down to 126M. I would reccomend this, because the large
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> majority
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> the files in opt are probably unused.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> What do you think?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best,
> >> >>>>>> Aljoscha
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> Best Regards
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Jeff Zhang
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Best, Jingsong Lee
> >
>
>
> --
> Best, Jingsong Lee
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Releasing "fat" and "slim" Flink distributions
Posted by Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Thanks all for your feedback.
I created JIRA for bundling format jars in lib. [1] FYI.
[1]https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FLINK-18173
Best,
Jingsong Lee
On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 3:59 PM Rui Li <li...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 to add light-weighted formats into the lib
>
> On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 3:28 PM Leonard Xu <xb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > +1 for Jingsong’s proposal to put flink-csv, flink-json and flink-avro
> > under lib/ directory.
> > I have heard many SQL users(most of newbies) complaint the out-of-box
> > experience in mail list.
> >
> > Best,
> > Leonard Xu
> >
> >
> > > 在 2020年6月5日，14:39，Benchao Li <li...@gmail.com> 写道：
> > >
> > > +1 to include them for sql-client by default;
> > > +0 to put into lib and exposed to all kinds of jobs, including
> > DataStream.
> > >
> > > Danny Chan <yu...@gmail.com> 于2020年6月5日周五 下午2:31写道：
> > >
> > >> +1, at least, we should keep an out of the box SQL-CLI, it’s very poor
> > >> experience to add such required format jars for SQL users.
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >> Danny Chan
> > >> 在 2020年6月5日 +0800 AM11:14，Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>，写道：
> > >>> Hi all,
> > >>>
> > >>> Considering that 1.11 will be released soon, what about my previous
> > >>> proposal? Put flink-csv, flink-json and flink-avro under lib.
> > >>> These three formats are very small and no third party dependence, and
> > >> they
> > >>> are widely used by table users.
> > >>>
> > >>> Best,
> > >>> Jingsong Lee
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:19 PM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Thanks for your discussion.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sorry to start discussing another thing:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The biggest problem I see is the variety of problems caused by
> users'
> > >> lack
> > >>>> of format dependency.
> > >>>> As Aljoscha said, these three formats are very small and no third
> > party
> > >>>> dependence, and they are widely used by table users.
> > >>>> Actually, we don't have any other built-in table formats now... In
> > >> total
> > >>>> 151K...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>> 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>> 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>
> > >>>> So, Can we just put them into "lib/" or flink-table-uber?
> > >>>> It not solve all problems and maybe it is independent of "fat" and
> > >> "slim".
> > >>>> But also improve usability.
> > >>>> What do you think? Any objections?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best,
> > >>>> Jingsong Lee
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:48 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> chesnay@apache.org>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> One downside would be that we're shipping more stuff when running
> on
> > >>>>> YARN for example, since the entire plugins directory is shiped by
> > >> default.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On 17/04/2020 16:38, Stephan Ewen wrote:
> > >>>>>> @Aljoscha I think that is an interesting line of thinking. the
> > >> swift-fs
> > >>>>> may
> > >>>>>> be rarely enough used to move it to an optional download.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I would still drop two more thoughts:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> (1) Now that we have plugins support, is there a reason to have a
> > >>>>> metrics
> > >>>>>> reporter or file system in /opt instead of /plugins? They don't
> > >> spoil
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>>> class path any more.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> (2) I can imagine there still being a desire to have a "minimal"
> > >> docker
> > >>>>>> file, for users that want to keep the container images as small as
> > >>>>>> possible, to speed up deployment. It is fine if that would not be
> > >> the
> > >>>>>> default, though.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:16 PM Aljoscha Krettek <
> > >> aljoscha@apache.org>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I think having such tools and/or tailor-made distributions can
> > >> be nice
> > >>>>>>> but I also think the discussion is missing the main point: The
> > >> initial
> > >>>>>>> observation/motivation is that apparently a lot of users (Kurt
> > >> and I
> > >>>>>>> talked about this) on the chinese DingTalk support groups, and
> > >> other
> > >>>>>>> support channels have problems when first using the SQL client
> > >> because
> > >>>>>>> of these missing connectors/formats. For these, having
> > >> additional tools
> > >>>>>>> would not solve anything because they would also not take that
> > >> extra
> > >>>>>>> step. I think that even tiny friction should be avoided because
> > >> the
> > >>>>>>> annoyance from it accumulates of the (hopefully) many users that
> > >> we
> > >>>>> want
> > >>>>>>> to have.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Maybe we should take a step back from discussing the
> > >> "fat"/"slim" idea
> > >>>>>>> and instead think about the composition of the current dist. As
> > >>>>>>> mentioned we have these jars in opt/:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> 17M flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 52K flink-cep-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 180K flink-cep_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 746K flink-gelly-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 626K flink-gelly_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 512K flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 159K flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 1.0M flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 102K flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 10K flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 12K flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 36M flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 28M flink-python_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 22K flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 18M flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 31M flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 196K flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 518K flink-sql-client_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 99K flink-state-processor-api_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 25M flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 160M opt
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The "filesystem" connectors ar ethe heavy hitters, there.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I downloaded most of the SQL connectors/formats and this is what
> > >> I got:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 55K flink-hbase_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 88K flink-jdbc_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 20M flink-sql-connector-elasticsearch6_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 2.8M flink-sql-connector-kafka_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>> 24M sql-connectors-formats
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> We could just add these to the Flink distribution without
> > >> blowing it up
> > >>>>>>> by much. We could drop any of the existing "filesystem"
> > >> connectors from
> > >>>>>>> opt and add the SQL connectors/formats and not change the size
> > >> of Flink
> > >>>>>>> dist. So maybe we should do that instead?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> We would need some tooling for the sql-client shell script to
> > >> pick-up
> > >>>>>>> the connectors/formats up from opt/ because we don't want to add
> > >> them
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>>>> lib/. We're already doing that for finding the flink-sql-client
> > >> jar,
> > >>>>>>> which is also not in lib/.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> What do you think?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>> Aljoscha
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On 17.04.20 05:22, Jark Wu wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I like the idea of web tool to assemble fat distribution. And
> > >> the
> > >>>>>>>> https://code.quarkus.io/ looks very nice.
> > >>>>>>>> All the users need to do is just select what he/she need (I
> > >> think this
> > >>>>>>> step
> > >>>>>>>> can't be omitted anyway).
> > >>>>>>>> We can also provide a default fat distribution on the web which
> > >>>>> default
> > >>>>>>>> selects some popular connectors.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>> Jark
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 02:29, Rafi Aroch <rafi.aroch@gmail.com
> > >>>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> As a reference for a nice first-experience I had, take a
> > >> look at
> > >>>>>>>>> https://code.quarkus.io/
> > >>>>>>>>> You reach this page after you click "Start Coding" at the
> > >> project
> > >>>>>>> homepage.
> > >>>>>>>>> Rafi
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:53 PM Kurt Young <yk...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I'm not saying pre-bundle some jars will make this problem
> > >> go away,
> > >>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>>>> you're right that only hides the problem for
> > >>>>>>>>>> some users. But what if this solution can hide the problem
> > >> for 90%
> > >>>>>>> users?
> > >>>>>>>>>> Would't that be good enough for us to try?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Regarding to would users following instructions really be
> > >> such a big
> > >>>>>>>>>> problem?
> > >>>>>>>>>> I'm afraid yes. Otherwise I won't answer such questions
> > >> for at
> > >>>>> least a
> > >>>>>>>>>> dozen times and I won't see such questions coming
> > >>>>>>>>>> up from time to time. During some periods, I even saw such
> > >> questions
> > >>>>>>>>> every
> > >>>>>>>>>> day.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>>> Kurt
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:21 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> > >>>>> chesnay@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> The problem with having a distribution with "popular"
> > >> stuff is
> > >>>>> that it
> > >>>>>>>>>>> doesn't really *solve* a problem, it just hides it for
> > >> users who
> > >>>>> fall
> > >>>>>>>>>>> into these particular use-cases.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Move out of it and you once again run into exact same
> > >> problems
> > >>>>>>>>> out-lined.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> This is exactly why I like the tooling approach; you
> > >> have to deal
> > >>>>> with
> > >>>>>>>>> it
> > >>>>>>>>>>> from the start and transitioning to a custom use-case is
> > >> easier.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Would users following instructions really be such a big
> > >> problem?
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I would expect that users generally know *what *they
> > >> need, just not
> > >>>>>>>>>>> necessarily how it is assembled correctly (where do get
> > >> which jar,
> > >>>>>>>>> which
> > >>>>>>>>>>> directory to put it in).
> > >>>>>>>>>>> It seems like these are exactly the problem this would
> > >> solve?
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I just don't see how moving a jar corresponding to some
> > >> feature
> > >>>>> from
> > >>>>>>>>> opt
> > >>>>>>>>>>> to some directory (lib/plugins) is less error-prone than
> > >> just
> > >>>>>>> selecting
> > >>>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> feature and having the tool handle the rest.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> As for re-distributions, it depends on the form that the
> > >> tool would
> > >>>>>>>>> take.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> It could be an application that runs locally and works
> > >> against
> > >>>>> maven
> > >>>>>>>>>>> central (note: not necessarily *using* maven); this
> > >> should would
> > >>>>> work
> > >>>>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>>>> China, no?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> A web tool would of course be fancy, but I don't know
> > >> how feasible
> > >>>>>>> this
> > >>>>>>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>>>>>> with the ASF infrastructure.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> You wouldn't be able to mirror the distribution, so the
> > >> load can't
> > >>>>> be
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distributed. I doubt INFRA would like this.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Note that third-parties could also start distributing
> > >> use-case
> > >>>>>>> oriented
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distributions, which would be perfectly fine as far as
> > >> I'm
> > >>>>> concerned.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2020 16:57, Kurt Young wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not so sure about the web tool solution though. The
> > >> concern I
> > >>>>> have
> > >>>>>>>>>> for
> > >>>>>>>>>>> this approach is the final generated
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distribution is kind of non-deterministic. We might
> > >> generate too
> > >>>>> many
> > >>>>>>>>>>> different combinations when user trying to
> > >>>>>>>>>>> package different types of connector, format, and even
> > >> maybe hadoop
> > >>>>>>>>>>> releases. As far as I can tell, most open
> > >>>>>>>>>>> source projects and apache projects will only release
> > >> some
> > >>>>>>>>>>> pre-defined distributions, which most users are already
> > >>>>>>>>>>> familiar with, thus hard to change IMO. And I also have
> > >> went
> > >>>>> through
> > >>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>>>> some cases, users will try to re-distribute
> > >>>>>>>>>>> the release package, because of the unstable network of
> > >> apache
> > >>>>> website
> > >>>>>>>>>> from
> > >>>>>>>>>>> China. In web tool solution, I don't
> > >>>>>>>>>>> think this kind of re-distribution would be possible
> > >> anymore.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> In the meantime, I also have a concern that we will fall
> > >> back into
> > >>>>> our
> > >>>>>>>>>> trap
> > >>>>>>>>>>> again if we try to offer this smart & flexible
> > >>>>>>>>>>> solution. Because it needs users to cooperate with such
> > >> mechanism.
> > >>>>>>> It's
> > >>>>>>>>>>> exactly the situation what we currently fell
> > >>>>>>>>>>> into:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 1. We offered a smart solution.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 2. We hope users will follow the correct instructions.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 3. Everything will work as expected if users followed
> > >> the right
> > >>>>>>>>>>> instructions.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> In reality, I suspect not all users will do the second
> > >> step
> > >>>>> correctly.
> > >>>>>>>>>> And
> > >>>>>>>>>>> for new users who only trying to have a quick
> > >>>>>>>>>>> experience with Flink, I would bet most users will do it
> > >> wrong.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> So, my proposal would be one of the following 2 options:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Provide a slim distribution for advanced product
> > >> users and
> > >>>>> provide
> > >>>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distribution which will have some popular builtin jars.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 2. Only provide a distribution which will have some
> > >> popular builtin
> > >>>>>>>>> jars.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> If we are trying to reduce the distributions we
> > >> released, I would
> > >>>>>>>>> prefer
> > >>>>>>>>>> 2
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 1.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Kurt
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:33 PM Till Rohrmann <
> > >>>>> trohrmann@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>> <
> > >>>>>>>>>> trohrmann@apache.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I think what Chesnay and Dawid proposed would be the
> > >> ideal
> > >>>>> solution.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ideally, we would also have a nice web tool for the
> > >> website which
> > >>>>>>>>>> generates
> > >>>>>>>>>>> the corresponding distribution for download.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> To get things started we could start with only
> > >> supporting to
> > >>>>>>>>>>> download/creating the "fat" version with the script. The
> > >> fat
> > >>>>> version
> > >>>>>>>>>> would
> > >>>>>>>>>>> then consist of the slim distribution and whatever we
> > >> deem
> > >>>>> important
> > >>>>>>>>> for
> > >>>>>>>>>>> new users to get started.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Till
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:33 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <
> > >>>>>>>>>> dwysakowicz@apache.org> <dw...@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Few points from my side:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 1. I like the idea of simplifying the experience for
> > >> first time
> > >>>>> users.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> As for production use cases I share Jark's opinion that
> > >> in this
> > >>>>> case I
> > >>>>>>>>>>> would expect users to combine their distribution
> > >> manually. I think
> > >>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>>>> such scenarios it is important to understand
> > >> interconnections.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Personally I'd expect the slimmest possible distribution
> > >> that I can
> > >>>>>>>>>>> extend further with what I need in my production
> > >> scenario.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 2. I think there is also the problem that the matrix of
> > >> possible
> > >>>>>>>>>>> combinations that can be useful is already big. Do we
> > >> want to have
> > >>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distribution for:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> SQL users: which connectors should we include? should we
> > >>>>> include
> > >>>>>>>>>>> hive? which other catalog?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> DataStream users: which connectors should we include?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> For both of the above should we include yarn/kubernetes?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I would opt for providing only the "slim" distribution
> > >> as a release
> > >>>>>>>>>>> artifact.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 3. However, as I said I think its worth investigating
> > >> how we can
> > >>>>>>>>> improve
> > >>>>>>>>>>> users experience. What do you think of providing a tool,
> > >> could be
> > >>>>> e.g.
> > >>>>>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>>>> shell script that constructs a distribution based on
> > >> users choice.
> > >>>>> I
> > >>>>>>>>>>> think that was also what Chesnay mentioned as "tooling to
> > >>>>>>>>>>> assemble custom distributions" In the end how I see the
> > >> difference
> > >>>>>>>>>>> between a slim and fat distribution is which jars do we
> > >> put into
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> lib, right? It could have a few "screens".
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Which API are you interested in:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> a. SQL API
> > >>>>>>>>>>> b. DataStream API
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 2. [SQL] Which connectors do you want to use?
> > >> [multichoice]:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> a. Kafka
> > >>>>>>>>>>> b. Elasticsearch
> > >>>>>>>>>>> ...
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 3. [SQL] Which catalog you want to use?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> ...
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Such a tool would download all the dependencies from
> > >> maven and put
> > >>>>>>> them
> > >>>>>>>>>>> into the correct folder. In the future we can extend it
> > >> with
> > >>>>>>> additional
> > >>>>>>>>>>> rules e.g. kafka-0.9 cannot be chosen at the same time
> > >> with
> > >>>>>>>>>>> kafka-universal etc.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> The benefit of it would be that the distribution that we
> > >> release
> > >>>>> could
> > >>>>>>>>>>> remain "slim" or we could even make it slimmer. I might
> > >> be missing
> > >>>>>>>>>>> something here though.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Dawdi
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2020 11:02, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I want to reinforce my opinion from earlier: This is
> > >> about
> > >>>>> improving
> > >>>>>>>>>>> the situation both for first-time users and for
> > >> experienced users
> > >>>>> that
> > >>>>>>>>>>> want to use a Flink dist in production. The current
> > >> Flink dist is
> > >>>>> too
> > >>>>>>>>>>> "thin" for first-time SQL users and it is too "fat" for
> > >> production
> > >>>>>>>>>>> users, that is where serving no-one properly with the
> > >> current
> > >>>>>>>>>>> middle-ground. That's why I think introducing those
> > >> specialized
> > >>>>>>>>>>> "spins" of Flink dist would be good.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> By the way, at some point in the future production users
> > >> might not
> > >>>>>>>>>>> even need to get a Flink dist anymore. They should be
> > >> able to have
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Flink as a dependency of their project (including the
> > >> runtime) and
> > >>>>>>>>>>> then build an image from this for Kubernetes or a fat
> > >> jar for YARN.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Aljoscha
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 15.04.20 18:14, wenlong.lwl wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Regarding slim and fat distributions, I think different
> > >> kinds of
> > >>>>> jobs
> > >>>>>>>>>>> may
> > >>>>>>>>>>> prefer different type of distribution:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> For DataStream job, I think we may not like fat
> > >> distribution
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> containing
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> connectors because user would always need to depend on
> > >> the
> > >>>>> connector
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> user code, it is easy to include the connector jar in
> > >> the user lib.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Less
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> jar in lib means less class conflicts and problems.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> For SQL job, I think we are trying to encourage user to
> > >> user pure
> > >>>>>>>>>>> sql(DDL +
> > >>>>>>>>>>> DML) to construct their job, In order to improve user
> > >> experience,
> > >>>>> It
> > >>>>>>>>>>> may be
> > >>>>>>>>>>> important for flink, not only providing as many
> > >> connector jar in
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distribution as possible especially the connector and
> > >> format we
> > >>>>> have
> > >>>>>>>>>>> well
> > >>>>>>>>>>> documented, but also providing an mechanism to load
> > >> connectors
> > >>>>>>>>>>> according
> > >>>>>>>>>>> to the DDLs,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> So I think it could be good to place connector/format
> > >> jars in some
> > >>>>>>>>>>> dir like
> > >>>>>>>>>>> opt/connector which would not affect jobs by default, and
> > >>>>> introduce a
> > >>>>>>>>>>> mechanism of dynamic discovery for SQL.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Wenlong
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 22:46, Jingsong Li <
> > >> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > >>>>> <
> > >>>>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I am thinking both "improve first experience" and
> > >> "improve
> > >>>>> production
> > >>>>>>>>>>> experience".
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I'm thinking about what's the common mode of Flink?
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Streaming job use Kafka? Batch job use Hive?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hive 1.2.1 dependencies can be compatible with most of
> > >> Hive server
> > >>>>>>>>>>> versions. So Spark and Presto have built-in Hive 1.2.1
> > >> dependency.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Flink is currently mainly used for streaming, so let's
> > >> not talk
> > >>>>>>>>>>> about hive.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> For streaming jobs, first of all, the jobs in my mind is
> > >> (related
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>> connectors):
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - ETL jobs: Kafka -> Kafka
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - Join jobs: Kafka -> DimJDBC -> Kafka
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - Aggregation jobs: Kafka -> JDBCSink
> > >>>>>>>>>>> So Kafka and JDBC are probably the most commonly used.
> > >> Of course,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> also
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> includes CSV, JSON's formats.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> So when we provide such a fat distribution:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - With CSV, JSON.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - With flink-kafka-universal and kafka dependencies.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - With flink-jdbc.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Using this fat distribution, most users can run their
> > >> jobs well.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> (jdbc
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> driver jar required, but this is very natural to do)
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Can these dependencies lead to kinds of conflicts? Only
> > >> Kafka may
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> have
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> conflicts, but if our goal is to use kafka-universal to
> > >> support all
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Kafka
> > >>>>>>>>>>> versions, it is hopeful to target the vast majority of
> > >> users.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> We don't want to plug all jars into the fat
> > >> distribution. Only need
> > >>>>>>>>>>> less
> > >>>>>>>>>>> conflict and common. of course, it is a matter of
> > >> consideration to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> put
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> which jar into fat distribution.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> We have the opportunity to facilitate the majority of
> > >> users, but
> > >>>>>>>>>>> also left
> > >>>>>>>>>>> opportunities for customization.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Jingsong Lee
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:09 PM Jark Wu <
> > >> imjark@gmail.com> <
> > >>>>>>>>>> imjark@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I think we should first reach an consensus on "what
> > >> problem do we
> > >>>>>>>>>>> want to
> > >>>>>>>>>>> solve?"
> > >>>>>>>>>>> (1) improve first experience? or (2) improve production
> > >> experience?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can see, with the above discussion, I think
> > >> what we
> > >>>>>>>>>>> want to
> > >>>>>>>>>>> solve is the "first experience".
> > >>>>>>>>>>> And I think the slim jar is still the best distribution
> > >> for
> > >>>>>>>>>>> production,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> because it's easier to assembling jars
> > >>>>>>>>>>> than excluding jars and can avoid potential class
> > >> conflicts.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> If we want to improve "first experience", I think it
> > >> make sense to
> > >>>>>>>>>>> have a
> > >>>>>>>>>>> fat distribution to give users a more smooth first
> > >> experience.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> But I would like to call it "playground distribution" or
> > >> something
> > >>>>>>>>>>> like
> > >>>>>>>>>>> that to explicitly differ from the "slim
> > >> production-purpose
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distribution".
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> The "playground distribution" can contains some widely
> > >> used jars,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> like
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> universal-kafka-sql-connector,
> > >> elasticsearch7-sql-connector, avro,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> json,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> csv, etc..
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Even we can provide a playground docker which may
> > >> contain the fat
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distribution, python3, and hive.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Jark
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 21:47, Chesnay Schepler <
> > >> chesnay@apache.org>
> > >>>>> <
> > >>>>>>>>>> chesnay@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I don't see a lot of value in having multiple
> > >> distributions.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> The simple reality is that no fat distribution we could
> > >> provide
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> would
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> satisfy all use-cases, so why even try.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> If users commonly run into issues for certain jars, then
> > >> maybe
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> those
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> should be added to the current distribution.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Personally though I still believe we should only
> > >> distribute a slim
> > >>>>>>>>>>> version. I'd rather have users always add required jars
> > >> to the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distribution than only when they go outside our
> > >> "expected"
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> use-cases.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Then we might finally address this issue properly, i.e.,
> > >> tooling to
> > >>>>>>>>>>> assemble custom distributions and/or better error
> > >> messages if
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Flink-provided extensions cannot be found.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 15/04/2020 15:23, Kurt Young wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Regarding to the specific solution, I'm not sure about
> > >> the "fat"
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> "slim"
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> solution though. I get the idea
> > >>>>>>>>>>> that we can make the slim one even more lightweight than
> > >> current
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distribution, but what about the "fat"
> > >>>>>>>>>>> one? Do you mean that we would package all connectors
> > >> and formats
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> into
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> this? I'm not sure if this is
> > >>>>>>>>>>> feasible. For example, we can't put all versions of
> > >> kafka and hive
> > >>>>>>>>>>> connector jars into lib directory, and
> > >>>>>>>>>>> we also might need hadoop jars when using filesystem
> > >> connector to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> access
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> data from HDFS.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> So my guess would be we might hand-pick some of the most
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> frequently
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> used
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> connectors and formats
> > >>>>>>>>>>> into our "lib" directory, like kafka, csv, json metioned
> > >> above,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> still
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> leave some other connectors out of it.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> If this is the case, then why not we just provide this
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distribution
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> user? I'm not sure i get the benefit of
> > >>>>>>>>>>> providing another super "slim" jar (we have to pay some
> > >> costs to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> provide
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> another suit of distribution).
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Kurt
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Jingsong Li <
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Big +1.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I like "fat" and "slim".
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> For csv and json, like Jark said, they are quite small
> > >> and don't
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> have
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> other
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> dependencies. They are important to kafka connector, and
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> important
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> to upcoming file system connector too.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> So can we move them to both "fat" and "slim"? They're so
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> important,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> they're so lightweight.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Jingsong Lee
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 4:53 PM godfrey he <
> > >> godfreyhe@gmail.com> <
> > >>>>>>>>>> godfreyhe@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Big +1.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> This will improve user experience (special for Flink new
> > >> users).
> > >>>>>>>>>>> We answered so many questions about "class not found".
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Godfrey
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Dian Fu <di...@gmail.com> <di...@gmail.com>
> > >>>>> 于2020年4月15日周三
> > >>>>>>>>>> 下午4:30写道：
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> +1 to this proposal.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Missing connector jars is also a big problem for PyFlink
> > >> users.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Currently,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> after a Python user has installed PyFlink using `pip`,
> > >> he has
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> manually
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> copy the connector fat jars to the PyFlink installation
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> directory
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> for
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> connectors to be used if he wants to run jobs locally.
> > >> This
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> process
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> very
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> confuse for users and affects the experience a lot.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Dian
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 在 2020年4月15日，下午3:51，Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> <
> > >> imjark@gmail.com>
> > >>>>> 写道：
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> +1 to the proposal. I also found the "download
> > >> additional jar"
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> step
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> really verbose when I prepare webinars.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> At least, I think the flink-csv and flink-json should in
> > >> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distribution,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> they are quite small and don't have other dependencies.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Jark
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 15:44, Jeff Zhang <
> > >> zjffdu@gmail.com> <
> > >>>>>>>>>> zjffdu@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Aljoscha,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Big +1 for the fat flink distribution, where do you plan
> > >> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> put
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> these
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> connectors ? opt or lib ?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> <
> > >> aljoscha@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>>>>> 于2020年4月15日周三
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 下午3:30写道：
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to discuss about releasing a more full-featured
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Flink
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> distribution. The motivation is that there is friction
> > >> for
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> SQL/Table
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> API
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> users that want to use Table connectors which are not
> > >> there
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> current Flink Distribution. For these users the workflow
> > >> is
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> currently
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> roughly:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - download Flink dist
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - configure csv/Kafka/json connectors per configuration
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - run SQL client or program
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - decrypt error message and research the solution
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - download additional connector jars
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - program works correctly
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I realize that this can be made to work but if every SQL
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> user
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> has
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> this
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> as their first experience that doesn't seem good to me.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> My proposal is to provide two versions of the Flink
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Distribution
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> future: "fat" and "slim" (names to be discussed):
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - slim would be even trimmer than todays distribution
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - fat would contain a lot of convenience connectors (yet
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> be
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> determined which one)
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> And yes, I realize that there are already more
> > >> dimensions of
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Flink
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> releases (Scala version and Java version).
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> For background, our current Flink dist has these in the
> > >> opt
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> directory:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-cep-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-cep_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-gelly-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-gelly_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-python_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> -
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-sql-client_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-state-processor-api_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Current Flink dist is 267M. If we removed everything from
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> opt
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> we
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> would
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> go down to 126M. I would reccomend this, because the
> > >> large
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> majority
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> the files in opt are probably unused.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Aljoscha
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Jeff Zhang
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Benchao Li
> >
> >
>
> --
> Best regards!
> Rui Li
>
--
Best, Jingsong Lee
Re: [DISCUSS] Releasing "fat" and "slim" Flink distributions
Posted by Rui Li <li...@gmail.com>.
+1 to add light-weighted formats into the lib
On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 3:28 PM Leonard Xu <xb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 for Jingsong’s proposal to put flink-csv, flink-json and flink-avro
> under lib/ directory.
> I have heard many SQL users(most of newbies) complaint the out-of-box
> experience in mail list.
>
> Best,
> Leonard Xu
>
>
> > 在 2020年6月5日，14:39，Benchao Li <li...@gmail.com> 写道：
> >
> > +1 to include them for sql-client by default;
> > +0 to put into lib and exposed to all kinds of jobs, including
> DataStream.
> >
> > Danny Chan <yu...@gmail.com> 于2020年6月5日周五 下午2:31写道：
> >
> >> +1, at least, we should keep an out of the box SQL-CLI, it’s very poor
> >> experience to add such required format jars for SQL users.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Danny Chan
> >> 在 2020年6月5日 +0800 AM11:14，Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>，写道：
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> Considering that 1.11 will be released soon, what about my previous
> >>> proposal? Put flink-csv, flink-json and flink-avro under lib.
> >>> These three formats are very small and no third party dependence, and
> >> they
> >>> are widely used by table users.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Jingsong Lee
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:19 PM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks for your discussion.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry to start discussing another thing:
> >>>>
> >>>> The biggest problem I see is the variety of problems caused by users'
> >> lack
> >>>> of format dependency.
> >>>> As Aljoscha said, these three formats are very small and no third
> party
> >>>> dependence, and they are widely used by table users.
> >>>> Actually, we don't have any other built-in table formats now... In
> >> total
> >>>> 151K...
> >>>>
> >>>> 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> >>>> 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>
> >>>> So, Can we just put them into "lib/" or flink-table-uber?
> >>>> It not solve all problems and maybe it is independent of "fat" and
> >> "slim".
> >>>> But also improve usability.
> >>>> What do you think? Any objections?
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Jingsong Lee
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:48 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> One downside would be that we're shipping more stuff when running on
> >>>>> YARN for example, since the entire plugins directory is shiped by
> >> default.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 17/04/2020 16:38, Stephan Ewen wrote:
> >>>>>> @Aljoscha I think that is an interesting line of thinking. the
> >> swift-fs
> >>>>> may
> >>>>>> be rarely enough used to move it to an optional download.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I would still drop two more thoughts:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> (1) Now that we have plugins support, is there a reason to have a
> >>>>> metrics
> >>>>>> reporter or file system in /opt instead of /plugins? They don't
> >> spoil
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>> class path any more.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> (2) I can imagine there still being a desire to have a "minimal"
> >> docker
> >>>>>> file, for users that want to keep the container images as small as
> >>>>>> possible, to speed up deployment. It is fine if that would not be
> >> the
> >>>>>> default, though.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:16 PM Aljoscha Krettek <
> >> aljoscha@apache.org>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think having such tools and/or tailor-made distributions can
> >> be nice
> >>>>>>> but I also think the discussion is missing the main point: The
> >> initial
> >>>>>>> observation/motivation is that apparently a lot of users (Kurt
> >> and I
> >>>>>>> talked about this) on the chinese DingTalk support groups, and
> >> other
> >>>>>>> support channels have problems when first using the SQL client
> >> because
> >>>>>>> of these missing connectors/formats. For these, having
> >> additional tools
> >>>>>>> would not solve anything because they would also not take that
> >> extra
> >>>>>>> step. I think that even tiny friction should be avoided because
> >> the
> >>>>>>> annoyance from it accumulates of the (hopefully) many users that
> >> we
> >>>>> want
> >>>>>>> to have.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Maybe we should take a step back from discussing the
> >> "fat"/"slim" idea
> >>>>>>> and instead think about the composition of the current dist. As
> >>>>>>> mentioned we have these jars in opt/:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 17M flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 52K flink-cep-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 180K flink-cep_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 746K flink-gelly-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 626K flink-gelly_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 512K flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 159K flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 1.0M flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 102K flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 10K flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 12K flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 36M flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 28M flink-python_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 22K flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 18M flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 31M flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 196K flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 518K flink-sql-client_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 99K flink-state-processor-api_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 25M flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 160M opt
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The "filesystem" connectors ar ethe heavy hitters, there.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I downloaded most of the SQL connectors/formats and this is what
> >> I got:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 55K flink-hbase_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 88K flink-jdbc_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 20M flink-sql-connector-elasticsearch6_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 2.8M flink-sql-connector-kafka_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>> 24M sql-connectors-formats
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We could just add these to the Flink distribution without
> >> blowing it up
> >>>>>>> by much. We could drop any of the existing "filesystem"
> >> connectors from
> >>>>>>> opt and add the SQL connectors/formats and not change the size
> >> of Flink
> >>>>>>> dist. So maybe we should do that instead?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We would need some tooling for the sql-client shell script to
> >> pick-up
> >>>>>>> the connectors/formats up from opt/ because we don't want to add
> >> them
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> lib/. We're already doing that for finding the flink-sql-client
> >> jar,
> >>>>>>> which is also not in lib/.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What do you think?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>> Aljoscha
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 17.04.20 05:22, Jark Wu wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I like the idea of web tool to assemble fat distribution. And
> >> the
> >>>>>>>> https://code.quarkus.io/ looks very nice.
> >>>>>>>> All the users need to do is just select what he/she need (I
> >> think this
> >>>>>>> step
> >>>>>>>> can't be omitted anyway).
> >>>>>>>> We can also provide a default fat distribution on the web which
> >>>>> default
> >>>>>>>> selects some popular connectors.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> Jark
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 02:29, Rafi Aroch <rafi.aroch@gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As a reference for a nice first-experience I had, take a
> >> look at
> >>>>>>>>> https://code.quarkus.io/
> >>>>>>>>> You reach this page after you click "Start Coding" at the
> >> project
> >>>>>>> homepage.
> >>>>>>>>> Rafi
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:53 PM Kurt Young <yk...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm not saying pre-bundle some jars will make this problem
> >> go away,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> you're right that only hides the problem for
> >>>>>>>>>> some users. But what if this solution can hide the problem
> >> for 90%
> >>>>>>> users?
> >>>>>>>>>> Would't that be good enough for us to try?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Regarding to would users following instructions really be
> >> such a big
> >>>>>>>>>> problem?
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm afraid yes. Otherwise I won't answer such questions
> >> for at
> >>>>> least a
> >>>>>>>>>> dozen times and I won't see such questions coming
> >>>>>>>>>> up from time to time. During some periods, I even saw such
> >> questions
> >>>>>>>>> every
> >>>>>>>>>> day.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>> Kurt
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:21 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> >>>>> chesnay@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The problem with having a distribution with "popular"
> >> stuff is
> >>>>> that it
> >>>>>>>>>>> doesn't really *solve* a problem, it just hides it for
> >> users who
> >>>>> fall
> >>>>>>>>>>> into these particular use-cases.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Move out of it and you once again run into exact same
> >> problems
> >>>>>>>>> out-lined.
> >>>>>>>>>>> This is exactly why I like the tooling approach; you
> >> have to deal
> >>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>>>> from the start and transitioning to a custom use-case is
> >> easier.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Would users following instructions really be such a big
> >> problem?
> >>>>>>>>>>> I would expect that users generally know *what *they
> >> need, just not
> >>>>>>>>>>> necessarily how it is assembled correctly (where do get
> >> which jar,
> >>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>>> directory to put it in).
> >>>>>>>>>>> It seems like these are exactly the problem this would
> >> solve?
> >>>>>>>>>>> I just don't see how moving a jar corresponding to some
> >> feature
> >>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>> opt
> >>>>>>>>>>> to some directory (lib/plugins) is less error-prone than
> >> just
> >>>>>>> selecting
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> feature and having the tool handle the rest.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> As for re-distributions, it depends on the form that the
> >> tool would
> >>>>>>>>> take.
> >>>>>>>>>>> It could be an application that runs locally and works
> >> against
> >>>>> maven
> >>>>>>>>>>> central (note: not necessarily *using* maven); this
> >> should would
> >>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>> China, no?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> A web tool would of course be fancy, but I don't know
> >> how feasible
> >>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> with the ASF infrastructure.
> >>>>>>>>>>> You wouldn't be able to mirror the distribution, so the
> >> load can't
> >>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>>>> distributed. I doubt INFRA would like this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Note that third-parties could also start distributing
> >> use-case
> >>>>>>> oriented
> >>>>>>>>>>> distributions, which would be perfectly fine as far as
> >> I'm
> >>>>> concerned.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2020 16:57, Kurt Young wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not so sure about the web tool solution though. The
> >> concern I
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>> this approach is the final generated
> >>>>>>>>>>> distribution is kind of non-deterministic. We might
> >> generate too
> >>>>> many
> >>>>>>>>>>> different combinations when user trying to
> >>>>>>>>>>> package different types of connector, format, and even
> >> maybe hadoop
> >>>>>>>>>>> releases. As far as I can tell, most open
> >>>>>>>>>>> source projects and apache projects will only release
> >> some
> >>>>>>>>>>> pre-defined distributions, which most users are already
> >>>>>>>>>>> familiar with, thus hard to change IMO. And I also have
> >> went
> >>>>> through
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>> some cases, users will try to re-distribute
> >>>>>>>>>>> the release package, because of the unstable network of
> >> apache
> >>>>> website
> >>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>> China. In web tool solution, I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>> think this kind of re-distribution would be possible
> >> anymore.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> In the meantime, I also have a concern that we will fall
> >> back into
> >>>>> our
> >>>>>>>>>> trap
> >>>>>>>>>>> again if we try to offer this smart & flexible
> >>>>>>>>>>> solution. Because it needs users to cooperate with such
> >> mechanism.
> >>>>>>> It's
> >>>>>>>>>>> exactly the situation what we currently fell
> >>>>>>>>>>> into:
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. We offered a smart solution.
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2. We hope users will follow the correct instructions.
> >>>>>>>>>>> 3. Everything will work as expected if users followed
> >> the right
> >>>>>>>>>>> instructions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> In reality, I suspect not all users will do the second
> >> step
> >>>>> correctly.
> >>>>>>>>>> And
> >>>>>>>>>>> for new users who only trying to have a quick
> >>>>>>>>>>> experience with Flink, I would bet most users will do it
> >> wrong.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So, my proposal would be one of the following 2 options:
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Provide a slim distribution for advanced product
> >> users and
> >>>>> provide
> >>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> distribution which will have some popular builtin jars.
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2. Only provide a distribution which will have some
> >> popular builtin
> >>>>>>>>> jars.
> >>>>>>>>>>> If we are trying to reduce the distributions we
> >> released, I would
> >>>>>>>>> prefer
> >>>>>>>>>> 2
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Kurt
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:33 PM Till Rohrmann <
> >>>>> trohrmann@apache.org>
> >>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>>>>> trohrmann@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what Chesnay and Dawid proposed would be the
> >> ideal
> >>>>> solution.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Ideally, we would also have a nice web tool for the
> >> website which
> >>>>>>>>>> generates
> >>>>>>>>>>> the corresponding distribution for download.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To get things started we could start with only
> >> supporting to
> >>>>>>>>>>> download/creating the "fat" version with the script. The
> >> fat
> >>>>> version
> >>>>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>>>>> then consist of the slim distribution and whatever we
> >> deem
> >>>>> important
> >>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>> new users to get started.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Till
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:33 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <
> >>>>>>>>>> dwysakowicz@apache.org> <dw...@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Few points from my side:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. I like the idea of simplifying the experience for
> >> first time
> >>>>> users.
> >>>>>>>>>>> As for production use cases I share Jark's opinion that
> >> in this
> >>>>> case I
> >>>>>>>>>>> would expect users to combine their distribution
> >> manually. I think
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>> such scenarios it is important to understand
> >> interconnections.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Personally I'd expect the slimmest possible distribution
> >> that I can
> >>>>>>>>>>> extend further with what I need in my production
> >> scenario.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2. I think there is also the problem that the matrix of
> >> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>> combinations that can be useful is already big. Do we
> >> want to have
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> distribution for:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> SQL users: which connectors should we include? should we
> >>>>> include
> >>>>>>>>>>> hive? which other catalog?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> DataStream users: which connectors should we include?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> For both of the above should we include yarn/kubernetes?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I would opt for providing only the "slim" distribution
> >> as a release
> >>>>>>>>>>> artifact.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 3. However, as I said I think its worth investigating
> >> how we can
> >>>>>>>>> improve
> >>>>>>>>>>> users experience. What do you think of providing a tool,
> >> could be
> >>>>> e.g.
> >>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> shell script that constructs a distribution based on
> >> users choice.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>> think that was also what Chesnay mentioned as "tooling to
> >>>>>>>>>>> assemble custom distributions" In the end how I see the
> >> difference
> >>>>>>>>>>> between a slim and fat distribution is which jars do we
> >> put into
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> lib, right? It could have a few "screens".
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Which API are you interested in:
> >>>>>>>>>>> a. SQL API
> >>>>>>>>>>> b. DataStream API
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2. [SQL] Which connectors do you want to use?
> >> [multichoice]:
> >>>>>>>>>>> a. Kafka
> >>>>>>>>>>> b. Elasticsearch
> >>>>>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 3. [SQL] Which catalog you want to use?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> ...
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Such a tool would download all the dependencies from
> >> maven and put
> >>>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>>>>> into the correct folder. In the future we can extend it
> >> with
> >>>>>>> additional
> >>>>>>>>>>> rules e.g. kafka-0.9 cannot be chosen at the same time
> >> with
> >>>>>>>>>>> kafka-universal etc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The benefit of it would be that the distribution that we
> >> release
> >>>>> could
> >>>>>>>>>>> remain "slim" or we could even make it slimmer. I might
> >> be missing
> >>>>>>>>>>> something here though.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Dawdi
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2020 11:02, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I want to reinforce my opinion from earlier: This is
> >> about
> >>>>> improving
> >>>>>>>>>>> the situation both for first-time users and for
> >> experienced users
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> want to use a Flink dist in production. The current
> >> Flink dist is
> >>>>> too
> >>>>>>>>>>> "thin" for first-time SQL users and it is too "fat" for
> >> production
> >>>>>>>>>>> users, that is where serving no-one properly with the
> >> current
> >>>>>>>>>>> middle-ground. That's why I think introducing those
> >> specialized
> >>>>>>>>>>> "spins" of Flink dist would be good.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> By the way, at some point in the future production users
> >> might not
> >>>>>>>>>>> even need to get a Flink dist anymore. They should be
> >> able to have
> >>>>>>>>>>> Flink as a dependency of their project (including the
> >> runtime) and
> >>>>>>>>>>> then build an image from this for Kubernetes or a fat
> >> jar for YARN.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Aljoscha
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 15.04.20 18:14, wenlong.lwl wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Regarding slim and fat distributions, I think different
> >> kinds of
> >>>>> jobs
> >>>>>>>>>>> may
> >>>>>>>>>>> prefer different type of distribution:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> For DataStream job, I think we may not like fat
> >> distribution
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> containing
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> connectors because user would always need to depend on
> >> the
> >>>>> connector
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> user code, it is easy to include the connector jar in
> >> the user lib.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Less
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> jar in lib means less class conflicts and problems.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> For SQL job, I think we are trying to encourage user to
> >> user pure
> >>>>>>>>>>> sql(DDL +
> >>>>>>>>>>> DML) to construct their job, In order to improve user
> >> experience,
> >>>>> It
> >>>>>>>>>>> may be
> >>>>>>>>>>> important for flink, not only providing as many
> >> connector jar in
> >>>>>>>>>>> distribution as possible especially the connector and
> >> format we
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>> well
> >>>>>>>>>>> documented, but also providing an mechanism to load
> >> connectors
> >>>>>>>>>>> according
> >>>>>>>>>>> to the DDLs,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So I think it could be good to place connector/format
> >> jars in some
> >>>>>>>>>>> dir like
> >>>>>>>>>>> opt/connector which would not affect jobs by default, and
> >>>>> introduce a
> >>>>>>>>>>> mechanism of dynamic discovery for SQL.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Wenlong
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 22:46, Jingsong Li <
> >> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> >>>>> <
> >>>>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I am thinking both "improve first experience" and
> >> "improve
> >>>>> production
> >>>>>>>>>>> experience".
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm thinking about what's the common mode of Flink?
> >>>>>>>>>>> Streaming job use Kafka? Batch job use Hive?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hive 1.2.1 dependencies can be compatible with most of
> >> Hive server
> >>>>>>>>>>> versions. So Spark and Presto have built-in Hive 1.2.1
> >> dependency.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Flink is currently mainly used for streaming, so let's
> >> not talk
> >>>>>>>>>>> about hive.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> For streaming jobs, first of all, the jobs in my mind is
> >> (related
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> connectors):
> >>>>>>>>>>> - ETL jobs: Kafka -> Kafka
> >>>>>>>>>>> - Join jobs: Kafka -> DimJDBC -> Kafka
> >>>>>>>>>>> - Aggregation jobs: Kafka -> JDBCSink
> >>>>>>>>>>> So Kafka and JDBC are probably the most commonly used.
> >> Of course,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> also
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> includes CSV, JSON's formats.
> >>>>>>>>>>> So when we provide such a fat distribution:
> >>>>>>>>>>> - With CSV, JSON.
> >>>>>>>>>>> - With flink-kafka-universal and kafka dependencies.
> >>>>>>>>>>> - With flink-jdbc.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Using this fat distribution, most users can run their
> >> jobs well.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> (jdbc
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> driver jar required, but this is very natural to do)
> >>>>>>>>>>> Can these dependencies lead to kinds of conflicts? Only
> >> Kafka may
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> conflicts, but if our goal is to use kafka-universal to
> >> support all
> >>>>>>>>>>> Kafka
> >>>>>>>>>>> versions, it is hopeful to target the vast majority of
> >> users.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> We don't want to plug all jars into the fat
> >> distribution. Only need
> >>>>>>>>>>> less
> >>>>>>>>>>> conflict and common. of course, it is a matter of
> >> consideration to
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> put
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> which jar into fat distribution.
> >>>>>>>>>>> We have the opportunity to facilitate the majority of
> >> users, but
> >>>>>>>>>>> also left
> >>>>>>>>>>> opportunities for customization.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Jingsong Lee
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:09 PM Jark Wu <
> >> imjark@gmail.com> <
> >>>>>>>>>> imjark@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I think we should first reach an consensus on "what
> >> problem do we
> >>>>>>>>>>> want to
> >>>>>>>>>>> solve?"
> >>>>>>>>>>> (1) improve first experience? or (2) improve production
> >> experience?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can see, with the above discussion, I think
> >> what we
> >>>>>>>>>>> want to
> >>>>>>>>>>> solve is the "first experience".
> >>>>>>>>>>> And I think the slim jar is still the best distribution
> >> for
> >>>>>>>>>>> production,
> >>>>>>>>>>> because it's easier to assembling jars
> >>>>>>>>>>> than excluding jars and can avoid potential class
> >> conflicts.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> If we want to improve "first experience", I think it
> >> make sense to
> >>>>>>>>>>> have a
> >>>>>>>>>>> fat distribution to give users a more smooth first
> >> experience.
> >>>>>>>>>>> But I would like to call it "playground distribution" or
> >> something
> >>>>>>>>>>> like
> >>>>>>>>>>> that to explicitly differ from the "slim
> >> production-purpose
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> distribution".
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The "playground distribution" can contains some widely
> >> used jars,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> like
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> universal-kafka-sql-connector,
> >> elasticsearch7-sql-connector, avro,
> >>>>>>>>>>> json,
> >>>>>>>>>>> csv, etc..
> >>>>>>>>>>> Even we can provide a playground docker which may
> >> contain the fat
> >>>>>>>>>>> distribution, python3, and hive.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Jark
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 21:47, Chesnay Schepler <
> >> chesnay@apache.org>
> >>>>> <
> >>>>>>>>>> chesnay@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't see a lot of value in having multiple
> >> distributions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The simple reality is that no fat distribution we could
> >> provide
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> satisfy all use-cases, so why even try.
> >>>>>>>>>>> If users commonly run into issues for certain jars, then
> >> maybe
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> should be added to the current distribution.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Personally though I still believe we should only
> >> distribute a slim
> >>>>>>>>>>> version. I'd rather have users always add required jars
> >> to the
> >>>>>>>>>>> distribution than only when they go outside our
> >> "expected"
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> use-cases.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Then we might finally address this issue properly, i.e.,
> >> tooling to
> >>>>>>>>>>> assemble custom distributions and/or better error
> >> messages if
> >>>>>>>>>>> Flink-provided extensions cannot be found.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 15/04/2020 15:23, Kurt Young wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Regarding to the specific solution, I'm not sure about
> >> the "fat"
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> "slim"
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> solution though. I get the idea
> >>>>>>>>>>> that we can make the slim one even more lightweight than
> >> current
> >>>>>>>>>>> distribution, but what about the "fat"
> >>>>>>>>>>> one? Do you mean that we would package all connectors
> >> and formats
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> into
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> this? I'm not sure if this is
> >>>>>>>>>>> feasible. For example, we can't put all versions of
> >> kafka and hive
> >>>>>>>>>>> connector jars into lib directory, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> we also might need hadoop jars when using filesystem
> >> connector to
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> access
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> data from HDFS.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> So my guess would be we might hand-pick some of the most
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> used
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> connectors and formats
> >>>>>>>>>>> into our "lib" directory, like kafka, csv, json metioned
> >> above,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> leave some other connectors out of it.
> >>>>>>>>>>> If this is the case, then why not we just provide this
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> distribution
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> user? I'm not sure i get the benefit of
> >>>>>>>>>>> providing another super "slim" jar (we have to pay some
> >> costs to
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> provide
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> another suit of distribution).
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Kurt
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Jingsong Li <
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Big +1.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I like "fat" and "slim".
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> For csv and json, like Jark said, they are quite small
> >> and don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> dependencies. They are important to kafka connector, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> important
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> to upcoming file system connector too.
> >>>>>>>>>>> So can we move them to both "fat" and "slim"? They're so
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> important,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> they're so lightweight.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Jingsong Lee
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 4:53 PM godfrey he <
> >> godfreyhe@gmail.com> <
> >>>>>>>>>> godfreyhe@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Big +1.
> >>>>>>>>>>> This will improve user experience (special for Flink new
> >> users).
> >>>>>>>>>>> We answered so many questions about "class not found".
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Godfrey
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Dian Fu <di...@gmail.com> <di...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> 于2020年4月15日周三
> >>>>>>>>>> 下午4:30写道：
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> +1 to this proposal.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Missing connector jars is also a big problem for PyFlink
> >> users.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Currently,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> after a Python user has installed PyFlink using `pip`,
> >> he has
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> manually
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> copy the connector fat jars to the PyFlink installation
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> directory
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> connectors to be used if he wants to run jobs locally.
> >> This
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> process
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> very
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> confuse for users and affects the experience a lot.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Dian
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 在 2020年4月15日，下午3:51，Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> <
> >> imjark@gmail.com>
> >>>>> 写道：
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> +1 to the proposal. I also found the "download
> >> additional jar"
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> step
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> really verbose when I prepare webinars.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> At least, I think the flink-csv and flink-json should in
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> distribution,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> they are quite small and don't have other dependencies.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Jark
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 15:44, Jeff Zhang <
> >> zjffdu@gmail.com> <
> >>>>>>>>>> zjffdu@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Aljoscha,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Big +1 for the fat flink distribution, where do you plan
> >> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> put
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> connectors ? opt or lib ?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> <
> >> aljoscha@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>>> 于2020年4月15日周三
> >>>>>>>>>>> 下午3:30写道：
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to discuss about releasing a more full-featured
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Flink
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> distribution. The motivation is that there is friction
> >> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> SQL/Table
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> API
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> users that want to use Table connectors which are not
> >> there
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> current Flink Distribution. For these users the workflow
> >> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> currently
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> roughly:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> - download Flink dist
> >>>>>>>>>>> - configure csv/Kafka/json connectors per configuration
> >>>>>>>>>>> - run SQL client or program
> >>>>>>>>>>> - decrypt error message and research the solution
> >>>>>>>>>>> - download additional connector jars
> >>>>>>>>>>> - program works correctly
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I realize that this can be made to work but if every SQL
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> user
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> as their first experience that doesn't seem good to me.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> My proposal is to provide two versions of the Flink
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Distribution
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> future: "fat" and "slim" (names to be discussed):
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> - slim would be even trimmer than todays distribution
> >>>>>>>>>>> - fat would contain a lot of convenience connectors (yet
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> determined which one)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> And yes, I realize that there are already more
> >> dimensions of
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Flink
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> releases (Scala version and Java version).
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> For background, our current Flink dist has these in the
> >> opt
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> directory:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-cep-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-cep_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-gelly-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-gelly_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-python_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> -
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-sql-client_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-state-processor-api_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>> - flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Current Flink dist is 267M. If we removed everything from
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> opt
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> go down to 126M. I would reccomend this, because the
> >> large
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> majority
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> the files in opt are probably unused.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Aljoscha
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Jeff Zhang
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Best,
> > Benchao Li
>
>
--
Best regards!
Rui Li
Re: [DISCUSS] Releasing "fat" and "slim" Flink distributions
Posted by Leonard Xu <xb...@gmail.com>.
+1 for Jingsong’s proposal to put flink-csv, flink-json and flink-avro under lib/ directory.
I have heard many SQL users(most of newbies) complaint the out-of-box experience in mail list.
Best,
Leonard Xu
> 在 2020年6月5日，14:39，Benchao Li <li...@gmail.com> 写道：
>
> +1 to include them for sql-client by default;
> +0 to put into lib and exposed to all kinds of jobs, including DataStream.
>
> Danny Chan <yu...@gmail.com> 于2020年6月5日周五 下午2:31写道：
>
>> +1, at least, we should keep an out of the box SQL-CLI, it’s very poor
>> experience to add such required format jars for SQL users.
>>
>> Best,
>> Danny Chan
>> 在 2020年6月5日 +0800 AM11:14，Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>，写道：
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Considering that 1.11 will be released soon, what about my previous
>>> proposal? Put flink-csv, flink-json and flink-avro under lib.
>>> These three formats are very small and no third party dependence, and
>> they
>>> are widely used by table users.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Jingsong Lee
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:19 PM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for your discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to start discussing another thing:
>>>>
>>>> The biggest problem I see is the variety of problems caused by users'
>> lack
>>>> of format dependency.
>>>> As Aljoscha said, these three formats are very small and no third party
>>>> dependence, and they are widely used by table users.
>>>> Actually, we don't have any other built-in table formats now... In
>> total
>>>> 151K...
>>>>
>>>> 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
>>>> 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
>>>> 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
>>>>
>>>> So, Can we just put them into "lib/" or flink-table-uber?
>>>> It not solve all problems and maybe it is independent of "fat" and
>> "slim".
>>>> But also improve usability.
>>>> What do you think? Any objections?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Jingsong Lee
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:48 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> One downside would be that we're shipping more stuff when running on
>>>>> YARN for example, since the entire plugins directory is shiped by
>> default.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 17/04/2020 16:38, Stephan Ewen wrote:
>>>>>> @Aljoscha I think that is an interesting line of thinking. the
>> swift-fs
>>>>> may
>>>>>> be rarely enough used to move it to an optional download.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would still drop two more thoughts:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) Now that we have plugins support, is there a reason to have a
>>>>> metrics
>>>>>> reporter or file system in /opt instead of /plugins? They don't
>> spoil
>>>>> the
>>>>>> class path any more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (2) I can imagine there still being a desire to have a "minimal"
>> docker
>>>>>> file, for users that want to keep the container images as small as
>>>>>> possible, to speed up deployment. It is fine if that would not be
>> the
>>>>>> default, though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:16 PM Aljoscha Krettek <
>> aljoscha@apache.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think having such tools and/or tailor-made distributions can
>> be nice
>>>>>>> but I also think the discussion is missing the main point: The
>> initial
>>>>>>> observation/motivation is that apparently a lot of users (Kurt
>> and I
>>>>>>> talked about this) on the chinese DingTalk support groups, and
>> other
>>>>>>> support channels have problems when first using the SQL client
>> because
>>>>>>> of these missing connectors/formats. For these, having
>> additional tools
>>>>>>> would not solve anything because they would also not take that
>> extra
>>>>>>> step. I think that even tiny friction should be avoided because
>> the
>>>>>>> annoyance from it accumulates of the (hopefully) many users that
>> we
>>>>> want
>>>>>>> to have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe we should take a step back from discussing the
>> "fat"/"slim" idea
>>>>>>> and instead think about the composition of the current dist. As
>>>>>>> mentioned we have these jars in opt/:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 17M flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 52K flink-cep-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 180K flink-cep_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 746K flink-gelly-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 626K flink-gelly_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 512K flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 159K flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 1.0M flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 102K flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 10K flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 12K flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 36M flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 28M flink-python_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 22K flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 18M flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 31M flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 196K flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
>>>>>>> 518K flink-sql-client_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 99K flink-state-processor-api_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 25M flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 160M opt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The "filesystem" connectors ar ethe heavy hitters, there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I downloaded most of the SQL connectors/formats and this is what
>> I got:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 55K flink-hbase_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 88K flink-jdbc_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 20M flink-sql-connector-elasticsearch6_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 2.8M flink-sql-connector-kafka_2.11-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>> 24M sql-connectors-formats
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We could just add these to the Flink distribution without
>> blowing it up
>>>>>>> by much. We could drop any of the existing "filesystem"
>> connectors from
>>>>>>> opt and add the SQL connectors/formats and not change the size
>> of Flink
>>>>>>> dist. So maybe we should do that instead?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We would need some tooling for the sql-client shell script to
>> pick-up
>>>>>>> the connectors/formats up from opt/ because we don't want to add
>> them
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> lib/. We're already doing that for finding the flink-sql-client
>> jar,
>>>>>>> which is also not in lib/.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Aljoscha
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 17.04.20 05:22, Jark Wu wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I like the idea of web tool to assemble fat distribution. And
>> the
>>>>>>>> https://code.quarkus.io/ looks very nice.
>>>>>>>> All the users need to do is just select what he/she need (I
>> think this
>>>>>>> step
>>>>>>>> can't be omitted anyway).
>>>>>>>> We can also provide a default fat distribution on the web which
>>>>> default
>>>>>>>> selects some popular connectors.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Jark
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 02:29, Rafi Aroch <rafi.aroch@gmail.com
>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a reference for a nice first-experience I had, take a
>> look at
>>>>>>>>> https://code.quarkus.io/
>>>>>>>>> You reach this page after you click "Start Coding" at the
>> project
>>>>>>> homepage.
>>>>>>>>> Rafi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:53 PM Kurt Young <yk...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm not saying pre-bundle some jars will make this problem
>> go away,
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> you're right that only hides the problem for
>>>>>>>>>> some users. But what if this solution can hide the problem
>> for 90%
>>>>>>> users?
>>>>>>>>>> Would't that be good enough for us to try?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regarding to would users following instructions really be
>> such a big
>>>>>>>>>> problem?
>>>>>>>>>> I'm afraid yes. Otherwise I won't answer such questions
>> for at
>>>>> least a
>>>>>>>>>> dozen times and I won't see such questions coming
>>>>>>>>>> up from time to time. During some periods, I even saw such
>> questions
>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>>> day.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>> Kurt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:21 PM Chesnay Schepler <
>>>>> chesnay@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with having a distribution with "popular"
>> stuff is
>>>>> that it
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't really *solve* a problem, it just hides it for
>> users who
>>>>> fall
>>>>>>>>>>> into these particular use-cases.
>>>>>>>>>>> Move out of it and you once again run into exact same
>> problems
>>>>>>>>> out-lined.
>>>>>>>>>>> This is exactly why I like the tooling approach; you
>> have to deal
>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> from the start and transitioning to a custom use-case is
>> easier.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Would users following instructions really be such a big
>> problem?
>>>>>>>>>>> I would expect that users generally know *what *they
>> need, just not
>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily how it is assembled correctly (where do get
>> which jar,
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> directory to put it in).
>>>>>>>>>>> It seems like these are exactly the problem this would
>> solve?
>>>>>>>>>>> I just don't see how moving a jar corresponding to some
>> feature
>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> opt
>>>>>>>>>>> to some directory (lib/plugins) is less error-prone than
>> just
>>>>>>> selecting
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> feature and having the tool handle the rest.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for re-distributions, it depends on the form that the
>> tool would
>>>>>>>>> take.
>>>>>>>>>>> It could be an application that runs locally and works
>> against
>>>>> maven
>>>>>>>>>>> central (note: not necessarily *using* maven); this
>> should would
>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> China, no?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A web tool would of course be fancy, but I don't know
>> how feasible
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> with the ASF infrastructure.
>>>>>>>>>>> You wouldn't be able to mirror the distribution, so the
>> load can't
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> distributed. I doubt INFRA would like this.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Note that third-parties could also start distributing
>> use-case
>>>>>>> oriented
>>>>>>>>>>> distributions, which would be perfectly fine as far as
>> I'm
>>>>> concerned.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2020 16:57, Kurt Young wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not so sure about the web tool solution though. The
>> concern I
>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> this approach is the final generated
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution is kind of non-deterministic. We might
>> generate too
>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>> different combinations when user trying to
>>>>>>>>>>> package different types of connector, format, and even
>> maybe hadoop
>>>>>>>>>>> releases. As far as I can tell, most open
>>>>>>>>>>> source projects and apache projects will only release
>> some
>>>>>>>>>>> pre-defined distributions, which most users are already
>>>>>>>>>>> familiar with, thus hard to change IMO. And I also have
>> went
>>>>> through
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> some cases, users will try to re-distribute
>>>>>>>>>>> the release package, because of the unstable network of
>> apache
>>>>> website
>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>> China. In web tool solution, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> think this kind of re-distribution would be possible
>> anymore.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In the meantime, I also have a concern that we will fall
>> back into
>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>> trap
>>>>>>>>>>> again if we try to offer this smart & flexible
>>>>>>>>>>> solution. Because it needs users to cooperate with such
>> mechanism.
>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>>> exactly the situation what we currently fell
>>>>>>>>>>> into:
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. We offered a smart solution.
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. We hope users will follow the correct instructions.
>>>>>>>>>>> 3. Everything will work as expected if users followed
>> the right
>>>>>>>>>>> instructions.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In reality, I suspect not all users will do the second
>> step
>>>>> correctly.
>>>>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>>>>>> for new users who only trying to have a quick
>>>>>>>>>>> experience with Flink, I would bet most users will do it
>> wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So, my proposal would be one of the following 2 options:
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Provide a slim distribution for advanced product
>> users and
>>>>> provide
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution which will have some popular builtin jars.
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Only provide a distribution which will have some
>> popular builtin
>>>>>>>>> jars.
>>>>>>>>>>> If we are trying to reduce the distributions we
>> released, I would
>>>>>>>>> prefer
>>>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>>>> 1.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kurt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:33 PM Till Rohrmann <
>>>>> trohrmann@apache.org>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>> trohrmann@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think what Chesnay and Dawid proposed would be the
>> ideal
>>>>> solution.
>>>>>>>>>>> Ideally, we would also have a nice web tool for the
>> website which
>>>>>>>>>> generates
>>>>>>>>>>> the corresponding distribution for download.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To get things started we could start with only
>> supporting to
>>>>>>>>>>> download/creating the "fat" version with the script. The
>> fat
>>>>> version
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> then consist of the slim distribution and whatever we
>> deem
>>>>> important
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> new users to get started.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> Till
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:33 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <
>>>>>>>>>> dwysakowicz@apache.org> <dw...@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Few points from my side:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I like the idea of simplifying the experience for
>> first time
>>>>> users.
>>>>>>>>>>> As for production use cases I share Jark's opinion that
>> in this
>>>>> case I
>>>>>>>>>>> would expect users to combine their distribution
>> manually. I think
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> such scenarios it is important to understand
>> interconnections.
>>>>>>>>>>> Personally I'd expect the slimmest possible distribution
>> that I can
>>>>>>>>>>> extend further with what I need in my production
>> scenario.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. I think there is also the problem that the matrix of
>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>> combinations that can be useful is already big. Do we
>> want to have
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution for:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> SQL users: which connectors should we include? should we
>>>>> include
>>>>>>>>>>> hive? which other catalog?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> DataStream users: which connectors should we include?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For both of the above should we include yarn/kubernetes?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I would opt for providing only the "slim" distribution
>> as a release
>>>>>>>>>>> artifact.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 3. However, as I said I think its worth investigating
>> how we can
>>>>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>>>>>> users experience. What do you think of providing a tool,
>> could be
>>>>> e.g.
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> shell script that constructs a distribution based on
>> users choice.
>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> think that was also what Chesnay mentioned as "tooling to
>>>>>>>>>>> assemble custom distributions" In the end how I see the
>> difference
>>>>>>>>>>> between a slim and fat distribution is which jars do we
>> put into
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> lib, right? It could have a few "screens".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Which API are you interested in:
>>>>>>>>>>> a. SQL API
>>>>>>>>>>> b. DataStream API
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. [SQL] Which connectors do you want to use?
>> [multichoice]:
>>>>>>>>>>> a. Kafka
>>>>>>>>>>> b. Elasticsearch
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 3. [SQL] Which catalog you want to use?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Such a tool would download all the dependencies from
>> maven and put
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>> into the correct folder. In the future we can extend it
>> with
>>>>>>> additional
>>>>>>>>>>> rules e.g. kafka-0.9 cannot be chosen at the same time
>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> kafka-universal etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The benefit of it would be that the distribution that we
>> release
>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>> remain "slim" or we could even make it slimmer. I might
>> be missing
>>>>>>>>>>> something here though.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dawdi
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 16/04/2020 11:02, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I want to reinforce my opinion from earlier: This is
>> about
>>>>> improving
>>>>>>>>>>> the situation both for first-time users and for
>> experienced users
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> want to use a Flink dist in production. The current
>> Flink dist is
>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>> "thin" for first-time SQL users and it is too "fat" for
>> production
>>>>>>>>>>> users, that is where serving no-one properly with the
>> current
>>>>>>>>>>> middle-ground. That's why I think introducing those
>> specialized
>>>>>>>>>>> "spins" of Flink dist would be good.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> By the way, at some point in the future production users
>> might not
>>>>>>>>>>> even need to get a Flink dist anymore. They should be
>> able to have
>>>>>>>>>>> Flink as a dependency of their project (including the
>> runtime) and
>>>>>>>>>>> then build an image from this for Kubernetes or a fat
>> jar for YARN.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Aljoscha
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15.04.20 18:14, wenlong.lwl wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding slim and fat distributions, I think different
>> kinds of
>>>>> jobs
>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>> prefer different type of distribution:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For DataStream job, I think we may not like fat
>> distribution
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> containing
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> connectors because user would always need to depend on
>> the
>>>>> connector
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> user code, it is easy to include the connector jar in
>> the user lib.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Less
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> jar in lib means less class conflicts and problems.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For SQL job, I think we are trying to encourage user to
>> user pure
>>>>>>>>>>> sql(DDL +
>>>>>>>>>>> DML) to construct their job, In order to improve user
>> experience,
>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>>> may be
>>>>>>>>>>> important for flink, not only providing as many
>> connector jar in
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution as possible especially the connector and
>> format we
>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>> documented, but also providing an mechanism to load
>> connectors
>>>>>>>>>>> according
>>>>>>>>>>> to the DDLs,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So I think it could be good to place connector/format
>> jars in some
>>>>>>>>>>> dir like
>>>>>>>>>>> opt/connector which would not affect jobs by default, and
>>>>> introduce a
>>>>>>>>>>> mechanism of dynamic discovery for SQL.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Wenlong
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 22:46, Jingsong Li <
>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am thinking both "improve first experience" and
>> "improve
>>>>> production
>>>>>>>>>>> experience".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm thinking about what's the common mode of Flink?
>>>>>>>>>>> Streaming job use Kafka? Batch job use Hive?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hive 1.2.1 dependencies can be compatible with most of
>> Hive server
>>>>>>>>>>> versions. So Spark and Presto have built-in Hive 1.2.1
>> dependency.
>>>>>>>>>>> Flink is currently mainly used for streaming, so let's
>> not talk
>>>>>>>>>>> about hive.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For streaming jobs, first of all, the jobs in my mind is
>> (related
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> connectors):
>>>>>>>>>>> - ETL jobs: Kafka -> Kafka
>>>>>>>>>>> - Join jobs: Kafka -> DimJDBC -> Kafka
>>>>>>>>>>> - Aggregation jobs: Kafka -> JDBCSink
>>>>>>>>>>> So Kafka and JDBC are probably the most commonly used.
>> Of course,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> includes CSV, JSON's formats.
>>>>>>>>>>> So when we provide such a fat distribution:
>>>>>>>>>>> - With CSV, JSON.
>>>>>>>>>>> - With flink-kafka-universal and kafka dependencies.
>>>>>>>>>>> - With flink-jdbc.
>>>>>>>>>>> Using this fat distribution, most users can run their
>> jobs well.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (jdbc
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> driver jar required, but this is very natural to do)
>>>>>>>>>>> Can these dependencies lead to kinds of conflicts? Only
>> Kafka may
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> conflicts, but if our goal is to use kafka-universal to
>> support all
>>>>>>>>>>> Kafka
>>>>>>>>>>> versions, it is hopeful to target the vast majority of
>> users.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We don't want to plug all jars into the fat
>> distribution. Only need
>>>>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>>>>> conflict and common. of course, it is a matter of
>> consideration to
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> which jar into fat distribution.
>>>>>>>>>>> We have the opportunity to facilitate the majority of
>> users, but
>>>>>>>>>>> also left
>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities for customization.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Jingsong Lee
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:09 PM Jark Wu <
>> imjark@gmail.com> <
>>>>>>>>>> imjark@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think we should first reach an consensus on "what
>> problem do we
>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>> solve?"
>>>>>>>>>>> (1) improve first experience? or (2) improve production
>> experience?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can see, with the above discussion, I think
>> what we
>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>> solve is the "first experience".
>>>>>>>>>>> And I think the slim jar is still the best distribution
>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> production,
>>>>>>>>>>> because it's easier to assembling jars
>>>>>>>>>>> than excluding jars and can avoid potential class
>> conflicts.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If we want to improve "first experience", I think it
>> make sense to
>>>>>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>>>>>> fat distribution to give users a more smooth first
>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>> But I would like to call it "playground distribution" or
>> something
>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>> that to explicitly differ from the "slim
>> production-purpose
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The "playground distribution" can contains some widely
>> used jars,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> universal-kafka-sql-connector,
>> elasticsearch7-sql-connector, avro,
>>>>>>>>>>> json,
>>>>>>>>>>> csv, etc..
>>>>>>>>>>> Even we can provide a playground docker which may
>> contain the fat
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution, python3, and hive.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Jark
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 21:47, Chesnay Schepler <
>> chesnay@apache.org>
>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>> chesnay@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see a lot of value in having multiple
>> distributions.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The simple reality is that no fat distribution we could
>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> satisfy all use-cases, so why even try.
>>>>>>>>>>> If users commonly run into issues for certain jars, then
>> maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> should be added to the current distribution.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Personally though I still believe we should only
>> distribute a slim
>>>>>>>>>>> version. I'd rather have users always add required jars
>> to the
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution than only when they go outside our
>> "expected"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> use-cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then we might finally address this issue properly, i.e.,
>> tooling to
>>>>>>>>>>> assemble custom distributions and/or better error
>> messages if
>>>>>>>>>>> Flink-provided extensions cannot be found.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/04/2020 15:23, Kurt Young wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding to the specific solution, I'm not sure about
>> the "fat"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "slim"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> solution though. I get the idea
>>>>>>>>>>> that we can make the slim one even more lightweight than
>> current
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution, but what about the "fat"
>>>>>>>>>>> one? Do you mean that we would package all connectors
>> and formats
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> this? I'm not sure if this is
>>>>>>>>>>> feasible. For example, we can't put all versions of
>> kafka and hive
>>>>>>>>>>> connector jars into lib directory, and
>>>>>>>>>>> we also might need hadoop jars when using filesystem
>> connector to
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> data from HDFS.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So my guess would be we might hand-pick some of the most
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> connectors and formats
>>>>>>>>>>> into our "lib" directory, like kafka, csv, json metioned
>> above,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> leave some other connectors out of it.
>>>>>>>>>>> If this is the case, then why not we just provide this
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> user? I'm not sure i get the benefit of
>>>>>>>>>>> providing another super "slim" jar (we have to pay some
>> costs to
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> another suit of distribution).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kurt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Jingsong Li <
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> jingsonglee0@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Big +1.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I like "fat" and "slim".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For csv and json, like Jark said, they are quite small
>> and don't
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> dependencies. They are important to kafka connector, and
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> to upcoming file system connector too.
>>>>>>>>>>> So can we move them to both "fat" and "slim"? They're so
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> important,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> they're so lightweight.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Jingsong Lee
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 4:53 PM godfrey he <
>> godfreyhe@gmail.com> <
>>>>>>>>>> godfreyhe@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Big +1.
>>>>>>>>>>> This will improve user experience (special for Flink new
>> users).
>>>>>>>>>>> We answered so many questions about "class not found".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Godfrey
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dian Fu <di...@gmail.com> <di...@gmail.com>
>>>>> 于2020年4月15日周三
>>>>>>>>>> 下午4:30写道：
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1 to this proposal.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Missing connector jars is also a big problem for PyFlink
>> users.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Currently,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> after a Python user has installed PyFlink using `pip`,
>> he has
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> manually
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> copy the connector fat jars to the PyFlink installation
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> directory
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> connectors to be used if he wants to run jobs locally.
>> This
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> confuse for users and affects the experience a lot.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Dian
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 在 2020年4月15日，下午3:51，Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> <
>> imjark@gmail.com>
>>>>> 写道：
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1 to the proposal. I also found the "download
>> additional jar"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> step
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> really verbose when I prepare webinars.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At least, I think the flink-csv and flink-json should in
>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> they are quite small and don't have other dependencies.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Jark
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 15:44, Jeff Zhang <
>> zjffdu@gmail.com> <
>>>>>>>>>> zjffdu@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Aljoscha,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Big +1 for the fat flink distribution, where do you plan
>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> connectors ? opt or lib ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> <
>> aljoscha@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> 于2020年4月15日周三
>>>>>>>>>>> 下午3:30写道：
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to discuss about releasing a more full-featured
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Flink
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution. The motivation is that there is friction
>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> SQL/Table
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> API
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> users that want to use Table connectors which are not
>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> current Flink Distribution. For these users the workflow
>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> currently
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> roughly:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - download Flink dist
>>>>>>>>>>> - configure csv/Kafka/json connectors per configuration
>>>>>>>>>>> - run SQL client or program
>>>>>>>>>>> - decrypt error message and research the solution
>>>>>>>>>>> - download additional connector jars
>>>>>>>>>>> - program works correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I realize that this can be made to work but if every SQL
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> as their first experience that doesn't seem good to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My proposal is to provide two versions of the Flink
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Distribution
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> future: "fat" and "slim" (names to be discussed):
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - slim would be even trimmer than todays distribution
>>>>>>>>>>> - fat would contain a lot of convenience connectors (yet
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> determined which one)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, I realize that there are already more
>> dimensions of
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Flink
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> releases (Scala version and Java version).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For background, our current Flink dist has these in the
>> opt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> directory:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-cep-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-cep_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-gelly-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-gelly_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-python_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-sql-client_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-state-processor-api_2.12-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>> - flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Current Flink dist is 267M. If we removed everything from
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> opt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> go down to 126M. I would reccomend this, because the
>> large
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the files in opt are probably unused.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>> Aljoscha
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff Zhang
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Best,
> Benchao Li
Re: [DISCUSS] Releasing "fat" and "slim" Flink distributions
Posted by Benchao Li <li...@gmail.com>.
+1 to include them for sql-client by default;
+0 to put into lib and exposed to all kinds of jobs, including DataStream.
Danny Chan <yu...@gmail.com> 于2020年6月5日周五 下午2:31写道：
> +1, at least, we should keep an out of the box SQL-CLI, it’s very poor
> experience to add such required format jars for SQL users.
>
> Best,
> Danny Chan
> 在 2020年6月5日 +0800 AM11:14，Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>，写道：
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Considering that 1.11 will be released soon, what about my previous
> > proposal? Put flink-csv, flink-json and flink-avro under lib.
> > These three formats are very small and no third party dependence, and
> they
> > are widely used by table users.
> >
> > Best,
> > Jingsong Lee
> >
> > On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:19 PM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for your discussion.
> > >
> > > Sorry to start discussing another thing:
> > >
> > > The biggest problem I see is the variety of problems caused by users'
> lack
> > > of format dependency.
> > > As Aljoscha said, these three formats are very small and no third party
> > > dependence, and they are widely used by table users.
> > > Actually, we don't have any other built-in table formats now... In
> total
> > > 151K...
> > >
> > > 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> > > 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> > > 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
> > >
> > > So, Can we just put them into "lib/" or flink-table-uber?
> > > It not solve all problems and maybe it is independent of "fat" and
> "slim".
> > > But also improve usability.
> > > What do you think? Any objections?
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Jingsong Lee
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:48 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > One downside would be that we're shipping more stuff when running on
> > > > YARN for example, since the entire plugins directory is shiped by
> default.
> > > >
> > > > On 17/04/2020 16:38, Stephan Ewen wrote:
> > > > > @Aljoscha I think that is an interesting line of thinking. the
> swift-fs
> > > > may
> > > > > be rarely enough used to move it to an optional download.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would still drop two more thoughts:
> > > > >
> > > > > (1) Now that we have plugins support, is there a reason to have a
> > > > metrics
> > > > > reporter or file system in /opt instead of /plugins? They don't
> spoil
> > > > the
> > > > > class path any more.
> > > > >
> > > > > (2) I can imagine there still being a desire to have a "minimal"
> docker
> > > > > file, for users that want to keep the container images as small as
> > > > > possible, to speed up deployment. It is fine if that would not be
> the
> > > > > default, though.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:16 PM Aljoscha Krettek <
> aljoscha@apache.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think having such tools and/or tailor-made distributions can
> be nice
> > > > > > but I also think the discussion is missing the main point: The
> initial
> > > > > > observation/motivation is that apparently a lot of users (Kurt
> and I
> > > > > > talked about this) on the chinese DingTalk support groups, and
> other
> > > > > > support channels have problems when first using the SQL client
> because
> > > > > > of these missing connectors/formats. For these, having
> additional tools
> > > > > > would not solve anything because they would also not take that
> extra
> > > > > > step. I think that even tiny friction should be avoided because
> the
> > > > > > annoyance from it accumulates of the (hopefully) many users that
> we
> > > > want
> > > > > > to have.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe we should take a step back from discussing the
> "fat"/"slim" idea
> > > > > > and instead think about the composition of the current dist. As
> > > > > > mentioned we have these jars in opt/:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 17M flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 52K flink-cep-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 180K flink-cep_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 746K flink-gelly-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 626K flink-gelly_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 512K flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 159K flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 1.0M flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 102K flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 10K flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 12K flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 36M flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 28M flink-python_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 22K flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 18M flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 31M flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 196K flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> > > > > > 518K flink-sql-client_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 99K flink-state-processor-api_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 25M flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 160M opt
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The "filesystem" connectors ar ethe heavy hitters, there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I downloaded most of the SQL connectors/formats and this is what
> I got:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 55K flink-hbase_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 88K flink-jdbc_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 20M flink-sql-connector-elasticsearch6_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 2.8M flink-sql-connector-kafka_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > 24M sql-connectors-formats
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We could just add these to the Flink distribution without
> blowing it up
> > > > > > by much. We could drop any of the existing "filesystem"
> connectors from
> > > > > > opt and add the SQL connectors/formats and not change the size
> of Flink
> > > > > > dist. So maybe we should do that instead?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We would need some tooling for the sql-client shell script to
> pick-up
> > > > > > the connectors/formats up from opt/ because we don't want to add
> them
> > > > to
> > > > > > lib/. We're already doing that for finding the flink-sql-client
> jar,
> > > > > > which is also not in lib/.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > Aljoscha
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 17.04.20 05:22, Jark Wu wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I like the idea of web tool to assemble fat distribution. And
> the
> > > > > > > https://code.quarkus.io/ looks very nice.
> > > > > > > All the users need to do is just select what he/she need (I
> think this
> > > > > > step
> > > > > > > can't be omitted anyway).
> > > > > > > We can also provide a default fat distribution on the web which
> > > > default
> > > > > > > selects some popular connectors.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > Jark
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 02:29, Rafi Aroch <rafi.aroch@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As a reference for a nice first-experience I had, take a
> look at
> > > > > > > > https://code.quarkus.io/
> > > > > > > > You reach this page after you click "Start Coding" at the
> project
> > > > > > homepage.
> > > > > > > > Rafi
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:53 PM Kurt Young <yk...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm not saying pre-bundle some jars will make this problem
> go away,
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > you're right that only hides the problem for
> > > > > > > > > some users. But what if this solution can hide the problem
> for 90%
> > > > > > users?
> > > > > > > > > Would't that be good enough for us to try?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regarding to would users following instructions really be
> such a big
> > > > > > > > > problem?
> > > > > > > > > I'm afraid yes. Otherwise I won't answer such questions
> for at
> > > > least a
> > > > > > > > > dozen times and I won't see such questions coming
> > > > > > > > > up from time to time. During some periods, I even saw such
> questions
> > > > > > > > every
> > > > > > > > > day.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > Kurt
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:21 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> > > > chesnay@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The problem with having a distribution with "popular"
> stuff is
> > > > that it
> > > > > > > > > > doesn't really *solve* a problem, it just hides it for
> users who
> > > > fall
> > > > > > > > > > into these particular use-cases.
> > > > > > > > > > Move out of it and you once again run into exact same
> problems
> > > > > > > > out-lined.
> > > > > > > > > > This is exactly why I like the tooling approach; you
> have to deal
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > from the start and transitioning to a custom use-case is
> easier.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Would users following instructions really be such a big
> problem?
> > > > > > > > > > I would expect that users generally know *what *they
> need, just not
> > > > > > > > > > necessarily how it is assembled correctly (where do get
> which jar,
> > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > directory to put it in).
> > > > > > > > > > It seems like these are exactly the problem this would
> solve?
> > > > > > > > > > I just don't see how moving a jar corresponding to some
> feature
> > > > from
> > > > > > > > opt
> > > > > > > > > > to some directory (lib/plugins) is less error-prone than
> just
> > > > > > selecting
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > feature and having the tool handle the rest.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As for re-distributions, it depends on the form that the
> tool would
> > > > > > > > take.
> > > > > > > > > > It could be an application that runs locally and works
> against
> > > > maven
> > > > > > > > > > central (note: not necessarily *using* maven); this
> should would
> > > > work
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > China, no?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A web tool would of course be fancy, but I don't know
> how feasible
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > with the ASF infrastructure.
> > > > > > > > > > You wouldn't be able to mirror the distribution, so the
> load can't
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > distributed. I doubt INFRA would like this.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Note that third-parties could also start distributing
> use-case
> > > > > > oriented
> > > > > > > > > > distributions, which would be perfectly fine as far as
> I'm
> > > > concerned.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 16/04/2020 16:57, Kurt Young wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'm not so sure about the web tool solution though. The
> concern I
> > > > have
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > this approach is the final generated
> > > > > > > > > > distribution is kind of non-deterministic. We might
> generate too
> > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > different combinations when user trying to
> > > > > > > > > > package different types of connector, format, and even
> maybe hadoop
> > > > > > > > > > releases. As far as I can tell, most open
> > > > > > > > > > source projects and apache projects will only release
> some
> > > > > > > > > > pre-defined distributions, which most users are already
> > > > > > > > > > familiar with, thus hard to change IMO. And I also have
> went
> > > > through
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > some cases, users will try to re-distribute
> > > > > > > > > > the release package, because of the unstable network of
> apache
> > > > website
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > China. In web tool solution, I don't
> > > > > > > > > > think this kind of re-distribution would be possible
> anymore.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, I also have a concern that we will fall
> back into
> > > > our
> > > > > > > > > trap
> > > > > > > > > > again if we try to offer this smart & flexible
> > > > > > > > > > solution. Because it needs users to cooperate with such
> mechanism.
> > > > > > It's
> > > > > > > > > > exactly the situation what we currently fell
> > > > > > > > > > into:
> > > > > > > > > > 1. We offered a smart solution.
> > > > > > > > > > 2. We hope users will follow the correct instructions.
> > > > > > > > > > 3. Everything will work as expected if users followed
> the right
> > > > > > > > > > instructions.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In reality, I suspect not all users will do the second
> step
> > > > correctly.
> > > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > > > for new users who only trying to have a quick
> > > > > > > > > > experience with Flink, I would bet most users will do it
> wrong.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So, my proposal would be one of the following 2 options:
> > > > > > > > > > 1. Provide a slim distribution for advanced product
> users and
> > > > provide
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > distribution which will have some popular builtin jars.
> > > > > > > > > > 2. Only provide a distribution which will have some
> popular builtin
> > > > > > > > jars.
> > > > > > > > > > If we are trying to reduce the distributions we
> released, I would
> > > > > > > > prefer
> > > > > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > > > > 1.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > > Kurt
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:33 PM Till Rohrmann <
> > > > trohrmann@apache.org>
> > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > trohrmann@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think what Chesnay and Dawid proposed would be the
> ideal
> > > > solution.
> > > > > > > > > > Ideally, we would also have a nice web tool for the
> website which
> > > > > > > > > generates
> > > > > > > > > > the corresponding distribution for download.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > To get things started we could start with only
> supporting to
> > > > > > > > > > download/creating the "fat" version with the script. The
> fat
> > > > version
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > then consist of the slim distribution and whatever we
> deem
> > > > important
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > new users to get started.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > > Till
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:33 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <
> > > > > > > > > dwysakowicz@apache.org> <dw...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Few points from my side:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1. I like the idea of simplifying the experience for
> first time
> > > > users.
> > > > > > > > > > As for production use cases I share Jark's opinion that
> in this
> > > > case I
> > > > > > > > > > would expect users to combine their distribution
> manually. I think
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > such scenarios it is important to understand
> interconnections.
> > > > > > > > > > Personally I'd expect the slimmest possible distribution
> that I can
> > > > > > > > > > extend further with what I need in my production
> scenario.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 2. I think there is also the problem that the matrix of
> possible
> > > > > > > > > > combinations that can be useful is already big. Do we
> want to have
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > distribution for:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > SQL users: which connectors should we include? should we
> > > > include
> > > > > > > > > > hive? which other catalog?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > DataStream users: which connectors should we include?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > For both of the above should we include yarn/kubernetes?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I would opt for providing only the "slim" distribution
> as a release
> > > > > > > > > > artifact.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 3. However, as I said I think its worth investigating
> how we can
> > > > > > > > improve
> > > > > > > > > > users experience. What do you think of providing a tool,
> could be
> > > > e.g.
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > shell script that constructs a distribution based on
> users choice.
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > think that was also what Chesnay mentioned as "tooling to
> > > > > > > > > > assemble custom distributions" In the end how I see the
> difference
> > > > > > > > > > between a slim and fat distribution is which jars do we
> put into
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > lib, right? It could have a few "screens".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1. Which API are you interested in:
> > > > > > > > > > a. SQL API
> > > > > > > > > > b. DataStream API
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 2. [SQL] Which connectors do you want to use?
> [multichoice]:
> > > > > > > > > > a. Kafka
> > > > > > > > > > b. Elasticsearch
> > > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 3. [SQL] Which catalog you want to use?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Such a tool would download all the dependencies from
> maven and put
> > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > into the correct folder. In the future we can extend it
> with
> > > > > > additional
> > > > > > > > > > rules e.g. kafka-0.9 cannot be chosen at the same time
> with
> > > > > > > > > > kafka-universal etc.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The benefit of it would be that the distribution that we
> release
> > > > could
> > > > > > > > > > remain "slim" or we could even make it slimmer. I might
> be missing
> > > > > > > > > > something here though.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Dawdi
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 16/04/2020 11:02, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I want to reinforce my opinion from earlier: This is
> about
> > > > improving
> > > > > > > > > > the situation both for first-time users and for
> experienced users
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > want to use a Flink dist in production. The current
> Flink dist is
> > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > "thin" for first-time SQL users and it is too "fat" for
> production
> > > > > > > > > > users, that is where serving no-one properly with the
> current
> > > > > > > > > > middle-ground. That's why I think introducing those
> specialized
> > > > > > > > > > "spins" of Flink dist would be good.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > By the way, at some point in the future production users
> might not
> > > > > > > > > > even need to get a Flink dist anymore. They should be
> able to have
> > > > > > > > > > Flink as a dependency of their project (including the
> runtime) and
> > > > > > > > > > then build an image from this for Kubernetes or a fat
> jar for YARN.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Aljoscha
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 15.04.20 18:14, wenlong.lwl wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Regarding slim and fat distributions, I think different
> kinds of
> > > > jobs
> > > > > > > > > > may
> > > > > > > > > > prefer different type of distribution:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > For DataStream job, I think we may not like fat
> distribution
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > containing
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > connectors because user would always need to depend on
> the
> > > > connector
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > user code, it is easy to include the connector jar in
> the user lib.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Less
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > jar in lib means less class conflicts and problems.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > For SQL job, I think we are trying to encourage user to
> user pure
> > > > > > > > > > sql(DDL +
> > > > > > > > > > DML) to construct their job, In order to improve user
> experience,
> > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > may be
> > > > > > > > > > important for flink, not only providing as many
> connector jar in
> > > > > > > > > > distribution as possible especially the connector and
> format we
> > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > > > > documented, but also providing an mechanism to load
> connectors
> > > > > > > > > > according
> > > > > > > > > > to the DDLs,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So I think it could be good to place connector/format
> jars in some
> > > > > > > > > > dir like
> > > > > > > > > > opt/connector which would not affect jobs by default, and
> > > > introduce a
> > > > > > > > > > mechanism of dynamic discovery for SQL.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > > Wenlong
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 22:46, Jingsong Li <
> jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > > > <
> > > > > > > > > jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am thinking both "improve first experience" and
> "improve
> > > > production
> > > > > > > > > > experience".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'm thinking about what's the common mode of Flink?
> > > > > > > > > > Streaming job use Kafka? Batch job use Hive?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hive 1.2.1 dependencies can be compatible with most of
> Hive server
> > > > > > > > > > versions. So Spark and Presto have built-in Hive 1.2.1
> dependency.
> > > > > > > > > > Flink is currently mainly used for streaming, so let's
> not talk
> > > > > > > > > > about hive.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > For streaming jobs, first of all, the jobs in my mind is
> (related
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > connectors):
> > > > > > > > > > - ETL jobs: Kafka -> Kafka
> > > > > > > > > > - Join jobs: Kafka -> DimJDBC -> Kafka
> > > > > > > > > > - Aggregation jobs: Kafka -> JDBCSink
> > > > > > > > > > So Kafka and JDBC are probably the most commonly used.
> Of course,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > includes CSV, JSON's formats.
> > > > > > > > > > So when we provide such a fat distribution:
> > > > > > > > > > - With CSV, JSON.
> > > > > > > > > > - With flink-kafka-universal and kafka dependencies.
> > > > > > > > > > - With flink-jdbc.
> > > > > > > > > > Using this fat distribution, most users can run their
> jobs well.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > (jdbc
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > driver jar required, but this is very natural to do)
> > > > > > > > > > Can these dependencies lead to kinds of conflicts? Only
> Kafka may
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > conflicts, but if our goal is to use kafka-universal to
> support all
> > > > > > > > > > Kafka
> > > > > > > > > > versions, it is hopeful to target the vast majority of
> users.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We don't want to plug all jars into the fat
> distribution. Only need
> > > > > > > > > > less
> > > > > > > > > > conflict and common. of course, it is a matter of
> consideration to
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > which jar into fat distribution.
> > > > > > > > > > We have the opportunity to facilitate the majority of
> users, but
> > > > > > > > > > also left
> > > > > > > > > > opportunities for customization.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > > Jingsong Lee
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:09 PM Jark Wu <
> imjark@gmail.com> <
> > > > > > > > > imjark@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think we should first reach an consensus on "what
> problem do we
> > > > > > > > > > want to
> > > > > > > > > > solve?"
> > > > > > > > > > (1) improve first experience? or (2) improve production
> experience?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As far as I can see, with the above discussion, I think
> what we
> > > > > > > > > > want to
> > > > > > > > > > solve is the "first experience".
> > > > > > > > > > And I think the slim jar is still the best distribution
> for
> > > > > > > > > > production,
> > > > > > > > > > because it's easier to assembling jars
> > > > > > > > > > than excluding jars and can avoid potential class
> conflicts.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If we want to improve "first experience", I think it
> make sense to
> > > > > > > > > > have a
> > > > > > > > > > fat distribution to give users a more smooth first
> experience.
> > > > > > > > > > But I would like to call it "playground distribution" or
> something
> > > > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > that to explicitly differ from the "slim
> production-purpose
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > distribution".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The "playground distribution" can contains some widely
> used jars,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > universal-kafka-sql-connector,
> elasticsearch7-sql-connector, avro,
> > > > > > > > > > json,
> > > > > > > > > > csv, etc..
> > > > > > > > > > Even we can provide a playground docker which may
> contain the fat
> > > > > > > > > > distribution, python3, and hive.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > > Jark
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 21:47, Chesnay Schepler <
> chesnay@apache.org>
> > > > <
> > > > > > > > > chesnay@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I don't see a lot of value in having multiple
> distributions.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The simple reality is that no fat distribution we could
> provide
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > satisfy all use-cases, so why even try.
> > > > > > > > > > If users commonly run into issues for certain jars, then
> maybe
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > should be added to the current distribution.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Personally though I still believe we should only
> distribute a slim
> > > > > > > > > > version. I'd rather have users always add required jars
> to the
> > > > > > > > > > distribution than only when they go outside our
> "expected"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > use-cases.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Then we might finally address this issue properly, i.e.,
> tooling to
> > > > > > > > > > assemble custom distributions and/or better error
> messages if
> > > > > > > > > > Flink-provided extensions cannot be found.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 15/04/2020 15:23, Kurt Young wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Regarding to the specific solution, I'm not sure about
> the "fat"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "slim"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > solution though. I get the idea
> > > > > > > > > > that we can make the slim one even more lightweight than
> current
> > > > > > > > > > distribution, but what about the "fat"
> > > > > > > > > > one? Do you mean that we would package all connectors
> and formats
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > this? I'm not sure if this is
> > > > > > > > > > feasible. For example, we can't put all versions of
> kafka and hive
> > > > > > > > > > connector jars into lib directory, and
> > > > > > > > > > we also might need hadoop jars when using filesystem
> connector to
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > access
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > data from HDFS.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So my guess would be we might hand-pick some of the most
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > frequently
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > used
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > connectors and formats
> > > > > > > > > > into our "lib" directory, like kafka, csv, json metioned
> above,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > leave some other connectors out of it.
> > > > > > > > > > If this is the case, then why not we just provide this
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > distribution
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > user? I'm not sure i get the benefit of
> > > > > > > > > > providing another super "slim" jar (we have to pay some
> costs to
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > provide
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > another suit of distribution).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > > Kurt
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Jingsong Li <
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > jingsonglee0@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Big +1.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I like "fat" and "slim".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > For csv and json, like Jark said, they are quite small
> and don't
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > dependencies. They are important to kafka connector, and
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > to upcoming file system connector too.
> > > > > > > > > > So can we move them to both "fat" and "slim"? They're so
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > important,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > they're so lightweight.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > > Jingsong Lee
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 4:53 PM godfrey he <
> godfreyhe@gmail.com> <
> > > > > > > > > godfreyhe@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Big +1.
> > > > > > > > > > This will improve user experience (special for Flink new
> users).
> > > > > > > > > > We answered so many questions about "class not found".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > > Godfrey
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Dian Fu <di...@gmail.com> <di...@gmail.com>
> > > > 于2020年4月15日周三
> > > > > > > > > 下午4:30写道：
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > +1 to this proposal.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Missing connector jars is also a big problem for PyFlink
> users.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Currently,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > after a Python user has installed PyFlink using `pip`,
> he has
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > manually
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > copy the connector fat jars to the PyFlink installation
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > directory
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > connectors to be used if he wants to run jobs locally.
> This
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > process
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > confuse for users and affects the experience a lot.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Dian
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 在 2020年4月15日，下午3:51，Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> <
> imjark@gmail.com>
> > > > 写道：
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > +1 to the proposal. I also found the "download
> additional jar"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > step
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > really verbose when I prepare webinars.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > At least, I think the flink-csv and flink-json should in
> the
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > distribution,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > they are quite small and don't have other dependencies.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > > Jark
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 15:44, Jeff Zhang <
> zjffdu@gmail.com> <
> > > > > > > > > zjffdu@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Aljoscha,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Big +1 for the fat flink distribution, where do you plan
> to
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > connectors ? opt or lib ?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> <
> aljoscha@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > 于2020年4月15日周三
> > > > > > > > > > 下午3:30写道：
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'd like to discuss about releasing a more full-featured
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Flink
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > distribution. The motivation is that there is friction
> for
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > SQL/Table
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > API
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > users that want to use Table connectors which are not
> there
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > current Flink Distribution. For these users the workflow
> is
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > currently
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > roughly:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > - download Flink dist
> > > > > > > > > > - configure csv/Kafka/json connectors per configuration
> > > > > > > > > > - run SQL client or program
> > > > > > > > > > - decrypt error message and research the solution
> > > > > > > > > > - download additional connector jars
> > > > > > > > > > - program works correctly
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I realize that this can be made to work but if every SQL
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > as their first experience that doesn't seem good to me.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > My proposal is to provide two versions of the Flink
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Distribution
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > future: "fat" and "slim" (names to be discussed):
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > - slim would be even trimmer than todays distribution
> > > > > > > > > > - fat would contain a lot of convenience connectors (yet
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > determined which one)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And yes, I realize that there are already more
> dimensions of
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Flink
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > releases (Scala version and Java version).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > For background, our current Flink dist has these in the
> opt
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > directory:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-cep-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-cep_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-gelly-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-gelly_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-python_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-sql-client_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-state-processor-api_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > > - flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Current Flink dist is 267M. If we removed everything from
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > opt
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > go down to 126M. I would reccomend this, because the
> large
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > majority
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > the files in opt are probably unused.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > > Aljoscha
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Best Regards
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Jeff Zhang
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Best, Jingsong Lee
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Best, Jingsong Lee
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best, Jingsong Lee
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best, Jingsong Lee
>
--
Best,
Benchao Li
Re: [DISCUSS] Releasing "fat" and "slim" Flink distributions
Posted by Danny Chan <yu...@gmail.com>.
+1, at least, we should keep an out of the box SQL-CLI, it’s very poor experience to add such required format jars for SQL users.
Best,
Danny Chan
在 2020年6月5日 +0800 AM11:14，Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>，写道：
> Hi all,
>
> Considering that 1.11 will be released soon, what about my previous
> proposal? Put flink-csv, flink-json and flink-avro under lib.
> These three formats are very small and no third party dependence, and they
> are widely used by table users.
>
> Best,
> Jingsong Lee
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 4:19 PM Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your discussion.
> >
> > Sorry to start discussing another thing:
> >
> > The biggest problem I see is the variety of problems caused by users' lack
> > of format dependency.
> > As Aljoscha said, these three formats are very small and no third party
> > dependence, and they are widely used by table users.
> > Actually, we don't have any other built-in table formats now... In total
> > 151K...
> >
> > 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> > 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> > 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
> >
> > So, Can we just put them into "lib/" or flink-table-uber?
> > It not solve all problems and maybe it is independent of "fat" and "slim".
> > But also improve usability.
> > What do you think? Any objections?
> >
> > Best,
> > Jingsong Lee
> >
> > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 5:48 PM Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > One downside would be that we're shipping more stuff when running on
> > > YARN for example, since the entire plugins directory is shiped by default.
> > >
> > > On 17/04/2020 16:38, Stephan Ewen wrote:
> > > > @Aljoscha I think that is an interesting line of thinking. the swift-fs
> > > may
> > > > be rarely enough used to move it to an optional download.
> > > >
> > > > I would still drop two more thoughts:
> > > >
> > > > (1) Now that we have plugins support, is there a reason to have a
> > > metrics
> > > > reporter or file system in /opt instead of /plugins? They don't spoil
> > > the
> > > > class path any more.
> > > >
> > > > (2) I can imagine there still being a desire to have a "minimal" docker
> > > > file, for users that want to keep the container images as small as
> > > > possible, to speed up deployment. It is fine if that would not be the
> > > > default, though.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:16 PM Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I think having such tools and/or tailor-made distributions can be nice
> > > > > but I also think the discussion is missing the main point: The initial
> > > > > observation/motivation is that apparently a lot of users (Kurt and I
> > > > > talked about this) on the chinese DingTalk support groups, and other
> > > > > support channels have problems when first using the SQL client because
> > > > > of these missing connectors/formats. For these, having additional tools
> > > > > would not solve anything because they would also not take that extra
> > > > > step. I think that even tiny friction should be avoided because the
> > > > > annoyance from it accumulates of the (hopefully) many users that we
> > > want
> > > > > to have.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe we should take a step back from discussing the "fat"/"slim" idea
> > > > > and instead think about the composition of the current dist. As
> > > > > mentioned we have these jars in opt/:
> > > > >
> > > > > 17M flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 52K flink-cep-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 180K flink-cep_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 746K flink-gelly-scala_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 626K flink-gelly_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 512K flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 159K flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 1.0M flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 102K flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 10K flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 12K flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 36M flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 28M flink-python_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 22K flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 18M flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 31M flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 196K flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> > > > > 518K flink-sql-client_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 99K flink-state-processor-api_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 25M flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 160M opt
> > > > >
> > > > > The "filesystem" connectors ar ethe heavy hitters, there.
> > > > >
> > > > > I downloaded most of the SQL connectors/formats and this is what I got:
> > > > >
> > > > > 73K flink-avro-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 36K flink-csv-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 55K flink-hbase_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 88K flink-jdbc_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 42K flink-json-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 20M flink-sql-connector-elasticsearch6_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 2.8M flink-sql-connector-kafka_2.11-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > 24M sql-connectors-formats
> > > > >
> > > > > We could just add these to the Flink distribution without blowing it up
> > > > > by much. We could drop any of the existing "filesystem" connectors from
> > > > > opt and add the SQL connectors/formats and not change the size of Flink
> > > > > dist. So maybe we should do that instead?
> > > > >
> > > > > We would need some tooling for the sql-client shell script to pick-up
> > > > > the connectors/formats up from opt/ because we don't want to add them
> > > to
> > > > > lib/. We're already doing that for finding the flink-sql-client jar,
> > > > > which is also not in lib/.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Aljoscha
> > > > >
> > > > > On 17.04.20 05:22, Jark Wu wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I like the idea of web tool to assemble fat distribution. And the
> > > > > > https://code.quarkus.io/ looks very nice.
> > > > > > All the users need to do is just select what he/she need (I think this
> > > > > step
> > > > > > can't be omitted anyway).
> > > > > > We can also provide a default fat distribution on the web which
> > > default
> > > > > > selects some popular connectors.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > Jark
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 02:29, Rafi Aroch <ra...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > As a reference for a nice first-experience I had, take a look at
> > > > > > > https://code.quarkus.io/
> > > > > > > You reach this page after you click "Start Coding" at the project
> > > > > homepage.
> > > > > > > Rafi
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:53 PM Kurt Young <yk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm not saying pre-bundle some jars will make this problem go away,
> > > and
> > > > > > > > you're right that only hides the problem for
> > > > > > > > some users. But what if this solution can hide the problem for 90%
> > > > > users?
> > > > > > > > Would't that be good enough for us to try?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regarding to would users following instructions really be such a big
> > > > > > > > problem?
> > > > > > > > I'm afraid yes. Otherwise I won't answer such questions for at
> > > least a
> > > > > > > > dozen times and I won't see such questions coming
> > > > > > > > up from time to time. During some periods, I even saw such questions
> > > > > > > every
> > > > > > > > day.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > Kurt
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:21 PM Chesnay Schepler <
> > > chesnay@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The problem with having a distribution with "popular" stuff is
> > > that it
> > > > > > > > > doesn't really *solve* a problem, it just hides it for users who
> > > fall
> > > > > > > > > into these particular use-cases.
> > > > > > > > > Move out of it and you once again run into exact same problems
> > > > > > > out-lined.
> > > > > > > > > This is exactly why I like the tooling approach; you have to deal
> > > with
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > from the start and transitioning to a custom use-case is easier.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Would users following instructions really be such a big problem?
> > > > > > > > > I would expect that users generally know *what *they need, just not
> > > > > > > > > necessarily how it is assembled correctly (where do get which jar,
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > directory to put it in).
> > > > > > > > > It seems like these are exactly the problem this would solve?
> > > > > > > > > I just don't see how moving a jar corresponding to some feature
> > > from
> > > > > > > opt
> > > > > > > > > to some directory (lib/plugins) is less error-prone than just
> > > > > selecting
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > feature and having the tool handle the rest.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As for re-distributions, it depends on the form that the tool would
> > > > > > > take.
> > > > > > > > > It could be an application that runs locally and works against
> > > maven
> > > > > > > > > central (note: not necessarily *using* maven); this should would
> > > work
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > China, no?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A web tool would of course be fancy, but I don't know how feasible
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > with the ASF infrastructure.
> > > > > > > > > You wouldn't be able to mirror the distribution, so the load can't
> > > be
> > > > > > > > > distributed. I doubt INFRA would like this.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Note that third-parties could also start distributing use-case
> > > > > oriented
> > > > > > > > > distributions, which would be perfectly fine as far as I'm
> > > concerned.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 16/04/2020 16:57, Kurt Young wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm not so sure about the web tool solution though. The concern I
> > > have
> > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > this approach is the final generated
> > > > > > > > > distribution is kind of non-deterministic. We might generate too
> > > many
> > > > > > > > > different combinations when user trying to
> > > > > > > > > package different types of connector, format, and even maybe hadoop
> > > > > > > > > releases. As far as I can tell, most open
> > > > > > > > > source projects and apache projects will only release some
> > > > > > > > > pre-defined distributions, which most users are already
> > > > > > > > > familiar with, thus hard to change IMO. And I also have went
> > > through
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > some cases, users will try to re-distribute
> > > > > > > > > the release package, because of the unstable network of apache
> > > website
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > China. In web tool solution, I don't
> > > > > > > > > think this kind of re-distribution would be possible anymore.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In the meantime, I also have a concern that we will fall back into
> > > our
> > > > > > > > trap
> > > > > > > > > again if we try to offer this smart & flexible
> > > > > > > > > solution. Because it needs users to cooperate with such mechanism.
> > > > > It's
> > > > > > > > > exactly the situation what we currently fell
> > > > > > > > > into:
> > > > > > > > > 1. We offered a smart solution.
> > > > > > > > > 2. We hope users will follow the correct instructions.
> > > > > > > > > 3. Everything will work as expected if users followed the right
> > > > > > > > > instructions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In reality, I suspect not all users will do the second step
> > > correctly.
> > > > > > > > And
> > > > > > > > > for new users who only trying to have a quick
> > > > > > > > > experience with Flink, I would bet most users will do it wrong.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, my proposal would be one of the following 2 options:
> > > > > > > > > 1. Provide a slim distribution for advanced product users and
> > > provide
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > distribution which will have some popular builtin jars.
> > > > > > > > > 2. Only provide a distribution which will have some popular builtin
> > > > > > > jars.
> > > > > > > > > If we are trying to reduce the distributions we released, I would
> > > > > > > prefer
> > > > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > > > 1.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > Kurt
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:33 PM Till Rohrmann <
> > > trohrmann@apache.org>
> > > > > <
> > > > > > > > trohrmann@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think what Chesnay and Dawid proposed would be the ideal
> > > solution.
> > > > > > > > > Ideally, we would also have a nice web tool for the website which
> > > > > > > > generates
> > > > > > > > > the corresponding distribution for download.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To get things started we could start with only supporting to
> > > > > > > > > download/creating the "fat" version with the script. The fat
> > > version
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > then consist of the slim distribution and whatever we deem
> > > important
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > new users to get started.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > Till
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 11:33 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <
> > > > > > > > dwysakowicz@apache.org> <dw...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Few points from my side:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. I like the idea of simplifying the experience for first time
> > > users.
> > > > > > > > > As for production use cases I share Jark's opinion that in this
> > > case I
> > > > > > > > > would expect users to combine their distribution manually. I think
> > > in
> > > > > > > > > such scenarios it is important to understand interconnections.
> > > > > > > > > Personally I'd expect the slimmest possible distribution that I can
> > > > > > > > > extend further with what I need in my production scenario.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2. I think there is also the problem that the matrix of possible
> > > > > > > > > combinations that can be useful is already big. Do we want to have
> > > a
> > > > > > > > > distribution for:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > SQL users: which connectors should we include? should we
> > > include
> > > > > > > > > hive? which other catalog?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > DataStream users: which connectors should we include?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For both of the above should we include yarn/kubernetes?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I would opt for providing only the "slim" distribution as a release
> > > > > > > > > artifact.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 3. However, as I said I think its worth investigating how we can
> > > > > > > improve
> > > > > > > > > users experience. What do you think of providing a tool, could be
> > > e.g.
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > shell script that constructs a distribution based on users choice.
> > > I
> > > > > > > > > think that was also what Chesnay mentioned as "tooling to
> > > > > > > > > assemble custom distributions" In the end how I see the difference
> > > > > > > > > between a slim and fat distribution is which jars do we put into
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > lib, right? It could have a few "screens".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. Which API are you interested in:
> > > > > > > > > a. SQL API
> > > > > > > > > b. DataStream API
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2. [SQL] Which connectors do you want to use? [multichoice]:
> > > > > > > > > a. Kafka
> > > > > > > > > b. Elasticsearch
> > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 3. [SQL] Which catalog you want to use?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Such a tool would download all the dependencies from maven and put
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > into the correct folder. In the future we can extend it with
> > > > > additional
> > > > > > > > > rules e.g. kafka-0.9 cannot be chosen at the same time with
> > > > > > > > > kafka-universal etc.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The benefit of it would be that the distribution that we release
> > > could
> > > > > > > > > remain "slim" or we could even make it slimmer. I might be missing
> > > > > > > > > something here though.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dawdi
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 16/04/2020 11:02, Aljoscha Krettek wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I want to reinforce my opinion from earlier: This is about
> > > improving
> > > > > > > > > the situation both for first-time users and for experienced users
> > > that
> > > > > > > > > want to use a Flink dist in production. The current Flink dist is
> > > too
> > > > > > > > > "thin" for first-time SQL users and it is too "fat" for production
> > > > > > > > > users, that is where serving no-one properly with the current
> > > > > > > > > middle-ground. That's why I think introducing those specialized
> > > > > > > > > "spins" of Flink dist would be good.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > By the way, at some point in the future production users might not
> > > > > > > > > even need to get a Flink dist anymore. They should be able to have
> > > > > > > > > Flink as a dependency of their project (including the runtime) and
> > > > > > > > > then build an image from this for Kubernetes or a fat jar for YARN.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Aljoscha
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 15.04.20 18:14, wenlong.lwl wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regarding slim and fat distributions, I think different kinds of
> > > jobs
> > > > > > > > > may
> > > > > > > > > prefer different type of distribution:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For DataStream job, I think we may not like fat distribution
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > containing
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > connectors because user would always need to depend on the
> > > connector
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > user code, it is easy to include the connector jar in the user lib.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Less
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > jar in lib means less class conflicts and problems.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For SQL job, I think we are trying to encourage user to user pure
> > > > > > > > > sql(DDL +
> > > > > > > > > DML) to construct their job, In order to improve user experience,
> > > It
> > > > > > > > > may be
> > > > > > > > > important for flink, not only providing as many connector jar in
> > > > > > > > > distribution as possible especially the connector and format we
> > > have
> > > > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > > > documented, but also providing an mechanism to load connectors
> > > > > > > > > according
> > > > > > > > > to the DDLs,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So I think it could be good to place connector/format jars in some
> > > > > > > > > dir like
> > > > > > > > > opt/connector which would not affect jobs by default, and
> > > introduce a
> > > > > > > > > mechanism of dynamic discovery for SQL.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > Wenlong
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 22:46, Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>
> > > <
> > > > > > > > jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am thinking both "improve first experience" and "improve
> > > production
> > > > > > > > > experience".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm thinking about what's the common mode of Flink?
> > > > > > > > > Streaming job use Kafka? Batch job use Hive?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hive 1.2.1 dependencies can be compatible with most of Hive server
> > > > > > > > > versions. So Spark and Presto have built-in Hive 1.2.1 dependency.
> > > > > > > > > Flink is currently mainly used for streaming, so let's not talk
> > > > > > > > > about hive.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For streaming jobs, first of all, the jobs in my mind is (related
> > > to
> > > > > > > > > connectors):
> > > > > > > > > - ETL jobs: Kafka -> Kafka
> > > > > > > > > - Join jobs: Kafka -> DimJDBC -> Kafka
> > > > > > > > > - Aggregation jobs: Kafka -> JDBCSink
> > > > > > > > > So Kafka and JDBC are probably the most commonly used. Of course,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > includes CSV, JSON's formats.
> > > > > > > > > So when we provide such a fat distribution:
> > > > > > > > > - With CSV, JSON.
> > > > > > > > > - With flink-kafka-universal and kafka dependencies.
> > > > > > > > > - With flink-jdbc.
> > > > > > > > > Using this fat distribution, most users can run their jobs well.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > (jdbc
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > driver jar required, but this is very natural to do)
> > > > > > > > > Can these dependencies lead to kinds of conflicts? Only Kafka may
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > conflicts, but if our goal is to use kafka-universal to support all
> > > > > > > > > Kafka
> > > > > > > > > versions, it is hopeful to target the vast majority of users.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We don't want to plug all jars into the fat distribution. Only need
> > > > > > > > > less
> > > > > > > > > conflict and common. of course, it is a matter of consideration to
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > which jar into fat distribution.
> > > > > > > > > We have the opportunity to facilitate the majority of users, but
> > > > > > > > > also left
> > > > > > > > > opportunities for customization.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > Jingsong Lee
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:09 PM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> <
> > > > > > > > imjark@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think we should first reach an consensus on "what problem do we
> > > > > > > > > want to
> > > > > > > > > solve?"
> > > > > > > > > (1) improve first experience? or (2) improve production experience?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As far as I can see, with the above discussion, I think what we
> > > > > > > > > want to
> > > > > > > > > solve is the "first experience".
> > > > > > > > > And I think the slim jar is still the best distribution for
> > > > > > > > > production,
> > > > > > > > > because it's easier to assembling jars
> > > > > > > > > than excluding jars and can avoid potential class conflicts.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If we want to improve "first experience", I think it make sense to
> > > > > > > > > have a
> > > > > > > > > fat distribution to give users a more smooth first experience.
> > > > > > > > > But I would like to call it "playground distribution" or something
> > > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > that to explicitly differ from the "slim production-purpose
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > distribution".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The "playground distribution" can contains some widely used jars,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > universal-kafka-sql-connector, elasticsearch7-sql-connector, avro,
> > > > > > > > > json,
> > > > > > > > > csv, etc..
> > > > > > > > > Even we can provide a playground docker which may contain the fat
> > > > > > > > > distribution, python3, and hive.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > Jark
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 21:47, Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> > > <
> > > > > > > > chesnay@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I don't see a lot of value in having multiple distributions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The simple reality is that no fat distribution we could provide
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > satisfy all use-cases, so why even try.
> > > > > > > > > If users commonly run into issues for certain jars, then maybe
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > should be added to the current distribution.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Personally though I still believe we should only distribute a slim
> > > > > > > > > version. I'd rather have users always add required jars to the
> > > > > > > > > distribution than only when they go outside our "expected"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > use-cases.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Then we might finally address this issue properly, i.e., tooling to
> > > > > > > > > assemble custom distributions and/or better error messages if
> > > > > > > > > Flink-provided extensions cannot be found.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 15/04/2020 15:23, Kurt Young wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regarding to the specific solution, I'm not sure about the "fat"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "slim"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > solution though. I get the idea
> > > > > > > > > that we can make the slim one even more lightweight than current
> > > > > > > > > distribution, but what about the "fat"
> > > > > > > > > one? Do you mean that we would package all connectors and formats
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > this? I'm not sure if this is
> > > > > > > > > feasible. For example, we can't put all versions of kafka and hive
> > > > > > > > > connector jars into lib directory, and
> > > > > > > > > we also might need hadoop jars when using filesystem connector to
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > access
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > data from HDFS.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So my guess would be we might hand-pick some of the most
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > frequently
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > used
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > connectors and formats
> > > > > > > > > into our "lib" directory, like kafka, csv, json metioned above,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > leave some other connectors out of it.
> > > > > > > > > If this is the case, then why not we just provide this
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > distribution
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > user? I'm not sure i get the benefit of
> > > > > > > > > providing another super "slim" jar (we have to pay some costs to
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > provide
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > another suit of distribution).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > Kurt
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Jingsong Li <
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > jingsonglee0@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Big +1.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I like "fat" and "slim".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For csv and json, like Jark said, they are quite small and don't
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > dependencies. They are important to kafka connector, and
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > important
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > to upcoming file system connector too.
> > > > > > > > > So can we move them to both "fat" and "slim"? They're so
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > important,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > they're so lightweight.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > Jingsong Lee
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 4:53 PM godfrey he <go...@gmail.com> <
> > > > > > > > godfreyhe@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Big +1.
> > > > > > > > > This will improve user experience (special for Flink new users).
> > > > > > > > > We answered so many questions about "class not found".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > Godfrey
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Dian Fu <di...@gmail.com> <di...@gmail.com>
> > > 于2020年4月15日周三
> > > > > > > > 下午4:30写道：
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > +1 to this proposal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Missing connector jars is also a big problem for PyFlink users.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Currently,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > after a Python user has installed PyFlink using `pip`, he has
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > manually
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > copy the connector fat jars to the PyFlink installation
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > directory
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > connectors to be used if he wants to run jobs locally. This
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > process
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > confuse for users and affects the experience a lot.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > Dian
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 在 2020年4月15日，下午3:51，Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> <im...@gmail.com>
> > > 写道：
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > +1 to the proposal. I also found the "download additional jar"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > step
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > really verbose when I prepare webinars.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > At least, I think the flink-csv and flink-json should in the
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > distribution,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > they are quite small and don't have other dependencies.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > Jark
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 15:44, Jeff Zhang <zj...@gmail.com> <
> > > > > > > > zjffdu@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Aljoscha,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Big +1 for the fat flink distribution, where do you plan to
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > connectors ? opt or lib ?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> <al...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > 于2020年4月15日周三
> > > > > > > > > 下午3:30写道：
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'd like to discuss about releasing a more full-featured
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Flink
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > distribution. The motivation is that there is friction for
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > SQL/Table
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > API
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > users that want to use Table connectors which are not there
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > current Flink Distribution. For these users the workflow is
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > currently
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > roughly:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - download Flink dist
> > > > > > > > > - configure csv/Kafka/json connectors per configuration
> > > > > > > > > - run SQL client or program
> > > > > > > > > - decrypt error message and research the solution
> > > > > > > > > - download additional connector jars
> > > > > > > > > - program works correctly
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I realize that this can be made to work but if every SQL
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > as their first experience that doesn't seem good to me.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > My proposal is to provide two versions of the Flink
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Distribution
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > future: "fat" and "slim" (names to be discussed):
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - slim would be even trimmer than todays distribution
> > > > > > > > > - fat would contain a lot of convenience connectors (yet
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > determined which one)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And yes, I realize that there are already more dimensions of
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Flink
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > releases (Scala version and Java version).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For background, our current Flink dist has these in the opt
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > directory:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - flink-azure-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-cep-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-cep_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-gelly-scala_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-gelly_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-datadog-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-graphite-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-influxdb-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-prometheus-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-slf4j-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-metrics-statsd-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-oss-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-python_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-queryable-state-runtime_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-s3-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-s3-fs-presto-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > flink-shaded-netty-tcnative-dynamic-2.0.25.Final-9.0.jar
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - flink-sql-client_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-state-processor-api_2.12-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > > - flink-swift-fs-hadoop-1.10.0.jar
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Current Flink dist is 267M. If we removed everything from
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > opt
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > go down to 126M. I would reccomend this, because the large
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > majority
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the files in opt are probably unused.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > > > Aljoscha
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Best Regards
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jeff Zhang
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Best, Jingsong Lee
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Best, Jingsong Lee
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Best, Jingsong Lee
> >
>
>
> --
> Best, Jingsong Lee