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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be> on 2012/01/26 09:33:14 UTC
Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Hello Tapestry users,
The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to implement
there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We did
a POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that
Struts will win.
The manager decision seams to revolve around the argument that if we can
do in Struts what we can do with Tapestry while keeping a code that is
relatively clean and readable, we should use Struts.
*Does anyone have a killer use case that would be difficult to implement
in Struts and easy in Tapestry.*
I already demonstrated the following about tapestry:
* Better components in Tapestry than in Struts
* Better persistence tools (FLASH, CLIENT, SESSION ,SESSION STATE, ...)
* Cleaner templates
* Less code review because of the framework sensible conventions
* Better code navigability (when using an IDE)
* Better refactoring (most of the code is in Java)
* Coherence and homogeneity (One framework for all your needs / Struts
needs JSP, Freemarker, Spring services and Tiles to even compete )
* Strong Ajax support out of the box
* Powerful configuration with symbols
* Beautiful architecture (easy to remember because very sensible)
* Easy to extend or override most of the features
* Live class reloading
* Made with most of the common web use cases in mind (javascript, css,
ajax, session, query parameters, cookies, integration with backend,
...).
* Everything at your fingertips with Injection and IoC
These are more than sufficient to convince me that productivity and
maintainability will be far better with Tapestry than with Struts. But
unfortunately, I fail to demonstrate to the manager :(.
Sorry for my poor English and thanks in advance,
Thim Anneessens.
Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
<th...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yep, Struts 2 isn't bad, but Tapestry and almost any other
> component-oriented framework, even JSF, is way better than Struts 2. And
> please, never ever think about adopting Struts 1. It sucks in every single
> way possible.
> I realized that when I was the instructor of a Struts 1 course many years
> ago.
> Students often asked: why so many lines of code for so little functionality?
> They were right. Struts 1 barely changed in the last 8 years.
+1
S1 is horrible. It was pain to learn back then. S2 is ways better.
But not every component framework is better - I am really
dissappointed by Wicket.
>
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and
> instructor
> Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
Oops, I've accidentally hit the send button too early.
On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:03:17 -0200, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey guys,
>
> Hi!
>
>> while I agree that T5 is amazing I must say Struts2 is not so bad as it
>> is discussed here.
>
Yep, Struts 2 isn't bad, but Tapestry and almost any other
component-oriented framework, even JSF, is way better than Struts 2. And
please, never ever think about adopting Struts 1. It sucks in every single
way possible.
I realized that when I was the instructor of a Struts 1 course many years
ago.
Students often asked: why so many lines of code for so little
functionality?
They were right. Struts 1 barely changed in the last 8 years.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:03:17 -0200, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey guys,
Hi!
> while I agree that T5 is amazing I must say Struts2 is not so bad as it
> is discussed here.
Yep, Struts 2 isn't bad, but Tapestry and almost any other
component-oriented framework, even JSF, is way better than Struts 2. And
please, never ever think about adopting
There are far more bad frameworks out there. At least S2
> is
> not dead, it is actively maintained and developed. Anyway - T5 does have
> some pretty cool features (class reloading, it is amazing, or components)
> which I really love. On Struts side I enjoy the easiness: make up an
> action
> and return json. This way you have more a service layer with Struts and
> can
> do whatever you want with JavaScript on the frontend.
>
> Again, I agree T5 is a great framework.
>
> Cheers
> Christian
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Dmitriy Vsekhvalnov <
> dvsekhvalnov@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Seriously? Struts vs. T5?
>>
>> Go look to market which people you can find more easily & cheaper. At
>> the
>> very end someone have to support the app.
>>
>> Personally i will never go to pick-up struts job because it is dead.
>> Unless you pay me significant more for my wasted time :)
>>
>> T5 simply the best web-framework in java world. So if you tied to java -
>> go with it. If not.. you know :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Thim Anneesens
>> <t....@ictjob.be>wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the ammo guys ;).
>>>
>>> Thim.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 01/26/2012 10:20 AM, Kalle Korhonen wrote:
>>>
>>> (Thim, you don't know what poor English is...) It's always difficult
>>> to win these arguments on technical merits alone, especially because
>>> they are often looked at one-by-one instead of as a whole. If at all
>>> possible, try to find an angle that your organization or your manager
>>> deeply cares about. For example, if you had more people with Tapestry
>>> experience than Struts people, that'd be a winning argument for me if
>>> I was a manager. If you can't find anything else, try this: Struts is
>>> a dying architecture, as proven by these
>>> graphs:http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.struts.usershttp://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.tapestry.usershttp://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=%22tapestry%205%22%2C%22apache%20struts%22&cmpt=q
>>>
>>> Granted, Tapestry doesn't fare that much better in these comparison
>>> but before you doom Tapestry to oblivion, note that many other
>>> programming languages, and especially web frameworks based on other
>>> languages than Java have been chipping away Java's general
>>> popularity:http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=java%2C&cmpt=q
>>>
>>> Personally, of those choices, Struts would be the last one I'd pick.
>>>
>>> Kalle
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Thim Anneesens
>>> <t....@ictjob.be> <t....@ictjob.be> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Tapestry users,
>>>
>>> The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to
>>> implement
>>> there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We
>>> did a
>>> POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
>>> We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that
>>> Struts will win.
>>>
>>> The manager decision seams to revolve around the argument that if we
>>> can do
>>> in Struts what we can do with Tapestry while keeping a code that is
>>> relatively clean and readable, we should use Struts.
>>>
>>> *Does anyone have a killer use case that would be difficult to
>>> implement in
>>> Struts and easy in Tapestry.*
>>>
>>> I already demonstrated the following about tapestry:
>>>
>>> * Better components in Tapestry than in Struts
>>> * Better persistence tools (FLASH, CLIENT, SESSION ,SESSION STATE,
>>> ...)
>>> * Cleaner templates
>>> * Less code review because of the framework sensible conventions
>>> * Better code navigability (when using an IDE)
>>> * Better refactoring (most of the code is in Java)
>>> * Coherence and homogeneity (One framework for all your needs / Struts
>>> needs JSP, Freemarker, Spring services and Tiles to even compete )
>>> * Strong Ajax support out of the box
>>> * Powerful configuration with symbols
>>> * Beautiful architecture (easy to remember because very sensible)
>>> * Easy to extend or override most of the features
>>> * Live class reloading
>>> * Made with most of the common web use cases in mind (javascript, css,
>>> ajax, session, query parameters, cookies, integration with backend,
>>> ...).
>>> * Everything at your fingertips with Injection and IoC
>>>
>>> These are more than sufficient to convince me that productivity and
>>> maintainability will be far better with Tapestry than with Struts. But
>>> unfortunately, I fail to demonstrate to the manager :(.
>>>
>>> Sorry for my poor English and thanks in advance,
>>>
>>> Thim Anneessens.
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> * Thim Anneessens
>>> IT Department *
>>>
>>> [image: ictjob group]
>>>
>>> ictjob.be <http://www.ictjob.be>
>>> Tel: +32 2 725 73 00
>>> Ikaroslaan, 2
>>> B-1930 Zaventem ictjob.lu <http://www.ictjob.lu>
>>> Tel: +352 621 364 792
>>> 12, rue Eugène Ruppert
>>> L-2453 Luxembourg jobtic.fr <http://www.jobtic.fr>
>>> Tel: +33 9 81 25 19 66
>>> 19 rue Martel
>>> 75010 Paris ticjob.es <http://www.ticjob.es>
>>> Tel: +34 911 25 43 11
>>> Calle Santo Tomé 4, 5B
>>> 28004 Madrid ictjob.de <http://www.ictjob.de>
>>> Tel: +49 711 91 41 07 32
>>> Humboldtstr. 32
>>> 70771 Leinfelden-Echterdingen
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
Consultor, desenvolvedor e instrutor em Java, Tapestry e Hibernate
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
<th...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:49:39 -0200, Christian Grobmeier
> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I do this in Struts (with my own S2 json plugin)
>
> Point to Tapestry, which does this out-of-the-box without plugins! :)
Well, in turn I can choose between 2 json plugins :-) But well, many
people want their framework to be able to do anything.
>> @JSON
>> class MyAction {
>>
>> @JSON
>> private Map results = ...;
>> }
>
>
> Thanks for the example. :) Does it support nested properties and arrays? I'm
> talking about this:
>
> Nested property: c.d:
> {
> a: 'b';
> c: {
> d: 'e'
>
> }
> }
Yes, you can do this:
@JSON
class MyAction {
@JSON String a = "b";
@JSON Map m = ..
}
and so on which will result in something like you said.
The plugin is here, if you want to take alook:
https://github.com/grobmeier/jjson
Struts has pretty less to do with it, except for a ResultType
implementation which uses JJSON.
Cheers
>> private Map results = ...;
>> }
>
>
>> I need to put a note into struts.xml that I want a json response
>> instead of a normal.
>> (struts.xml is another dinosaur i don't like on s2, but there is the
>> convention plug which supports annotations)
>
>
> That's another huge Tapestry advantage: the lack of declarative navigation
> rules that plague Struts (any version) and JSF. IMHO declarative navigation
> rules an experiment that failed miserably. A solution (and a very bad one)
> in search for a problem.
>
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and
> instructor
> Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:49:39 -0200, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do this in Struts (with my own S2 json plugin)
Point to Tapestry, which does this out-of-the-box without plugins! :)
> @JSON
> class MyAction {
>
> @JSON
> private Map results = ...;
> }
Thanks for the example. :) Does it support nested properties and arrays?
I'm talking about this:
Nested property: c.d:
{
a: 'b';
c: {
d: 'e'
}
}
> I need to put a note into struts.xml that I want a json response
> instead of a normal.
> (struts.xml is another dinosaur i don't like on s2, but there is the
> convention plug which supports annotations)
That's another huge Tapestry advantage: the lack of declarative navigation
rules that plague Struts (any version) and JSF. IMHO declarative
navigation rules an experiment that failed miserably. A solution (and a
very bad one) in search for a problem.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
<th...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:03:17 -0200, Christian Grobmeier
> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can't imagine how doing this in Tapestry wouldn't be easier than Struts,
> any version:
>
> package a.b.c.pages;
>
> public class JsonResponse {
>
> JSONObject void onActivate() {
> JSONObject object = new JSONObject();
> ...
> return object;
>
> }
I do this in Struts (with my own S2 json plugin)
@JSON
class MyAction {
@JSON
private Map results = ...;
}
I need to put a note into struts.xml that I want a json response
instead of a normal.
(struts.xml is another dinosaur i don't like on s2, but there is the
convention plug which supports annotations)
>
> }
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and
> instructor
> Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Chris Mylonas <ch...@opencsta.org>.
Thiago, your previous replies were the reason I dodged java web frameworks since early 2000 til now...you know your stuff...
on the below reply - because of this list's experience (as apposed to my lay(simple) outlook on it all), would it be possible to make a comparison page of "common requirements". tapestry can do it all from what i can see in my experience.
On 26/01/2012, at 11:39 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:03:17 -0200, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey guys,
>
> Hi!
>
>> love. On Struts side I enjoy the easiness: make up an action and return json.
>
> I can't imagine how doing this in Tapestry wouldn't be easier than Struts, any version:
>
> package a.b.c.pages;
>
> public class JsonResponse {
>
> JSONObject void onActivate() {
> JSONObject object = new JSONObject();
> ...
> return object;
> }
>
> }
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor
> Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:03:17 -0200, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey guys,
Hi!
> love. On Struts side I enjoy the easiness: make up an action and return
> json.
I can't imagine how doing this in Tapestry wouldn't be easier than Struts,
any version:
package a.b.c.pages;
public class JsonResponse {
JSONObject void onActivate() {
JSONObject object = new JSONObject();
...
return object;
}
}
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:51:33 -0200, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am sorry.
> I meant "optimized for SEO".
> I do not use ajax for "standard" content, which then can be easily
> optimized for SEO using S2
Tapestry has SEO built-in: pages and their activation context. For when
this is not enough, we have URL rewriting (the LinkTransformer API since
5.2, URLRewriter for 5.1).
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
<th...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:05:33 -0200, Christian Grobmeier
> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I expect my users to have JS on these days. And if I need JS I do a
>> webapplication, not just a website. Websites can be easily optimized
>> with Struts2. Webapplications - well do I need or even want to crawl
>> calculations or some other stuff? In my case not.
>
>
> Could you explain this paragraph? I really don't get it. What do you mean by
> optimization?
I am sorry.
I meant "optimized for SEO".
I do not use ajax for "standard" content, which then can be easily
optimized for SEO using S2
>
>
>> My personal killer feature: class reloading. Can only be done with
>> JRebel in S2. It saves much time, and time is money. Explain your
>> managers every deployment costs 4 minutes, you need to do 15 a day.
>
>
> Agreed. Managers love anything that cut costs (and developer time is $$$)
> and live class reloading reduces development time an awful lot. Ask anyone
> who once developed in Tapestry and then needed to use another web framework.
Like me.
I started with Wicket, and was so dissappointed. My time was going
away, so I needed to choose something I could rely on: Struts. I knew
it already, no surprises. THen another customer asked me to do some
stuff in Tapestry... which was great fun!
>
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and
> instructor
> Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:05:33 -0200, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I expect my users to have JS on these days. And if I need JS I do a
> webapplication, not just a website. Websites can be easily optimized
> with Struts2. Webapplications - well do I need or even want to crawl
> calculations or some other stuff? In my case not.
Could you explain this paragraph? I really don't get it. What do you mean
by optimization?
> My personal killer feature: class reloading. Can only be done with
> JRebel in S2. It saves much time, and time is money. Explain your
> managers every deployment costs 4 minutes, you need to do 15 a day.
Agreed. Managers love anything that cut costs (and developer time is $$$)
and live class reloading reduces development time an awful lot. Ask anyone
who once developed in Tapestry and then needed to use another web
framework.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:55:19 -0200, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In Struts you have to do stuff you get for free with Tapestry. You
> need to take care on this yourself, at least to my knowledge. The only
> chance is someone (or you) writes a Struts 2 plugin for that, which
> seems to be a pretty complicated task.
Writing a Tapestry add-on package is quite easy and it has the advantage
of working without any additional configuration.
I forgot one huge advantage of Tapestry over Struts (and many other
frameworks as well) which managers would love: the amount of code you need
to write is lower (sometimes way lower), and less code => less bugs =>
less $$$ spent on development.
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> When it comes to SEO I think you'll find this link interesting:
>>
> http://code.google.com/intl/de-DE/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/getting-started.html
>
> I have come across this page before and it looks like a whole lot of rules
> and processes that need to be in place in order to support ajax crawlable
> sites. Does struts2 "just work" for ajax crawlability or does the team need
> to follow strict guidelines and practices? Tapestry simply works out of the
> box. Since the ajax fragments are known on the server, it can decide
> whether to use partial page (XHR + javascript) or full page update as part
> of the framework.
In Struts you have to do stuff you get for free with Tapestry. You
need to take care on this yourself, at least to my knowledge. The only
chance is someone (or you) writes a Struts 2 plugin for that, which
seems to be a pretty complicated task.
>
> On Thursday, 26 January 2012, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Please don't get me wrong, there are many things in which Tapestry
>> beats other frameworks. Not only Struts. Look at the hyped Wicket
>> framework. I have used it and can say I really dislike it. It is
>> utterly complex and the docs are the worst thing I have ever seen.
>> With Tapestry I could create a simple CRUD in 2 hours, without any
>> knowledge.
>>
>> When it comes to SEO I think you'll find this link interesting:
>>
> http://code.google.com/intl/de-DE/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/getting-started.html
>>
>> I expect my users to have JS on these days. And if I need JS I do a
>> webapplication, not just a website. Websites can be easily optimized
>> with Struts2. Webapplications - well do I need or even want to crawl
>> calculations or some other stuff? In my case not.
>>
>> Anyway I fully agree that the frontend technology used by Tapestry
>> (components, yeah) is ways better then what is currently offered by
>> Struts.
>>
>> But one should not say easily framework x is dead, just because
>> something is here which is better.
>>
>> If it comes to ammo:
>> - T5 has excellent docs (compared to Wicket)
>> - T5 is so easy to learn (compared to Wicket) as Struts 2
>> - T5 supports view components (S2 does not, or not out of the box)
>>
>> My personal killer feature: class reloading. Can only be done with
>> JRebel in S2. It saves much time, and time is money. Explain your
>> managers every deployment costs 4 minutes, you need to do 15 a day.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>>> One killer argument is SEO (search engine optimisation). Is your webapp
>>> publicly available and do you want to appear high in google results?
>>>
>>> Whilst google's algorithms are hidden, it is known that if searching for
> a
>>> ferarri, a site like
>>>
>>> www.mysite.com/cars/ferarri
>>>
>>> will appear higher in the search results for a site like
>>>
>>> wwww.mysite.com/cars?make=ferarri
>>>
>>> I'm not familiar with struts2 but if you are returning json, chances are
>>> that a lot of the site is invisible to the google crawler which does not
>>> execute javascript.
>>>
>>> Tapestry first draws pages with HTML (all links are simple a href=). It
>>> then decorates the page with ajax if javascript is available. This has
> the
>>> benefit that it gracefully degrades for clients with javascript disabled
>>> (think screen readers and the google crawler). If you have designed your
>>> tapestry pages correctly to return null for ajax actions where isXhr() is
>>> false (see taha's @XHR annotation) your pages should gracefully degrade.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure about struts2 but I know many sites will simply stop working
>>> and may simply display a blank page if javascript is disabled (I think
> this
>>> might be the case with GWT). Perhaps you could try turning off javascript
>>> in the browser then viewing each of your POC sites and get a feel for
> what
>>> a crawler will see. I know there are tools to help with SEO out there.
>>>
>>> Lance
>>>
>>> On Thursday, 26 January 2012, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hey guys,
>>>>
>>>> while I agree that T5 is amazing I must say Struts2 is not so bad as it
> is
>>>> discussed here. There are far more bad frameworks out there. At least S2
>>> is
>>>> not dead, it is actively maintained and developed. Anyway - T5 does have
>>>> some pretty cool features (class reloading, it is amazing, or
> components)
>>>> which I really love. On Struts side I enjoy the easiness: make up an
>>> action
>>>> and return json. This way you have more a service layer with Struts and
>>> can
>>>> do whatever you want with JavaScript on the frontend.
>>>>
>>>> Again, I agree T5 is a great framework.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Christian
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Dmitriy Vsekhvalnov <
>>>> dvsekhvalnov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Seriously? Struts vs. T5?
>>>>>
>>>>> Go look to market which people you can find more easily & cheaper. At
> the
>>>>> very end someone have to support the app.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally i will never go to pick-up struts job because it is dead.
>>>>> Unless you pay me significant more for my wasted time :)
>>>>>
>>>>> T5 simply the best web-framework in java world. So if you tied to java
> -
>>>>> go with it. If not.. you know :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Thim Anneesens <
> t.anneessens@ictjob.be
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the ammo guys ;).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 01/26/2012 10:20 AM, Kalle Korhonen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Thim, you don't know what poor English is...) It's always difficult
>>>>>> to win these arguments on technical merits alone, especially because
>>>>>> they are often looked at one-by-one instead of as a whole. If at all
>>>>>> possible, try to find an angle that your organization or your manager
>>>>>> deeply cares about. For example, if you had more people with Tapestry
>>>>>> experience than Struts people, that'd be a winning argument for me if
>>>>>> I was a manager. If you can't find anything else, try this: Struts is
>>>>>> a dying architecture, as proven by these graphs:
>>>
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>.
> When it comes to SEO I think you'll find this link interesting:
>
http://code.google.com/intl/de-DE/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/getting-started.html
I have come across this page before and it looks like a whole lot of rules
and processes that need to be in place in order to support ajax crawlable
sites. Does struts2 "just work" for ajax crawlability or does the team need
to follow strict guidelines and practices? Tapestry simply works out of the
box. Since the ajax fragments are known on the server, it can decide
whether to use partial page (XHR + javascript) or full page update as part
of the framework.
On Thursday, 26 January 2012, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Please don't get me wrong, there are many things in which Tapestry
> beats other frameworks. Not only Struts. Look at the hyped Wicket
> framework. I have used it and can say I really dislike it. It is
> utterly complex and the docs are the worst thing I have ever seen.
> With Tapestry I could create a simple CRUD in 2 hours, without any
> knowledge.
>
> When it comes to SEO I think you'll find this link interesting:
>
http://code.google.com/intl/de-DE/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/getting-started.html
>
> I expect my users to have JS on these days. And if I need JS I do a
> webapplication, not just a website. Websites can be easily optimized
> with Struts2. Webapplications - well do I need or even want to crawl
> calculations or some other stuff? In my case not.
>
> Anyway I fully agree that the frontend technology used by Tapestry
> (components, yeah) is ways better then what is currently offered by
> Struts.
>
> But one should not say easily framework x is dead, just because
> something is here which is better.
>
> If it comes to ammo:
> - T5 has excellent docs (compared to Wicket)
> - T5 is so easy to learn (compared to Wicket) as Struts 2
> - T5 supports view components (S2 does not, or not out of the box)
>
> My personal killer feature: class reloading. Can only be done with
> JRebel in S2. It saves much time, and time is money. Explain your
> managers every deployment costs 4 minutes, you need to do 15 a day.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
>> One killer argument is SEO (search engine optimisation). Is your webapp
>> publicly available and do you want to appear high in google results?
>>
>> Whilst google's algorithms are hidden, it is known that if searching for
a
>> ferarri, a site like
>>
>> www.mysite.com/cars/ferarri
>>
>> will appear higher in the search results for a site like
>>
>> wwww.mysite.com/cars?make=ferarri
>>
>> I'm not familiar with struts2 but if you are returning json, chances are
>> that a lot of the site is invisible to the google crawler which does not
>> execute javascript.
>>
>> Tapestry first draws pages with HTML (all links are simple a href=). It
>> then decorates the page with ajax if javascript is available. This has
the
>> benefit that it gracefully degrades for clients with javascript disabled
>> (think screen readers and the google crawler). If you have designed your
>> tapestry pages correctly to return null for ajax actions where isXhr() is
>> false (see taha's @XHR annotation) your pages should gracefully degrade.
>>
>> I'm not sure about struts2 but I know many sites will simply stop working
>> and may simply display a blank page if javascript is disabled (I think
this
>> might be the case with GWT). Perhaps you could try turning off javascript
>> in the browser then viewing each of your POC sites and get a feel for
what
>> a crawler will see. I know there are tools to help with SEO out there.
>>
>> Lance
>>
>> On Thursday, 26 January 2012, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Hey guys,
>>>
>>> while I agree that T5 is amazing I must say Struts2 is not so bad as it
is
>>> discussed here. There are far more bad frameworks out there. At least S2
>> is
>>> not dead, it is actively maintained and developed. Anyway - T5 does have
>>> some pretty cool features (class reloading, it is amazing, or
components)
>>> which I really love. On Struts side I enjoy the easiness: make up an
>> action
>>> and return json. This way you have more a service layer with Struts and
>> can
>>> do whatever you want with JavaScript on the frontend.
>>>
>>> Again, I agree T5 is a great framework.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Christian
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Dmitriy Vsekhvalnov <
>>> dvsekhvalnov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Seriously? Struts vs. T5?
>>>>
>>>> Go look to market which people you can find more easily & cheaper. At
the
>>>> very end someone have to support the app.
>>>>
>>>> Personally i will never go to pick-up struts job because it is dead.
>>>> Unless you pay me significant more for my wasted time :)
>>>>
>>>> T5 simply the best web-framework in java world. So if you tied to java
-
>>>> go with it. If not.. you know :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Thim Anneesens <
t.anneessens@ictjob.be
>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the ammo guys ;).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thim.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 01/26/2012 10:20 AM, Kalle Korhonen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> (Thim, you don't know what poor English is...) It's always difficult
>>>>> to win these arguments on technical merits alone, especially because
>>>>> they are often looked at one-by-one instead of as a whole. If at all
>>>>> possible, try to find an angle that your organization or your manager
>>>>> deeply cares about. For example, if you had more people with Tapestry
>>>>> experience than Struts people, that'd be a winning argument for me if
>>>>> I was a manager. If you can't find anything else, try this: Struts is
>>>>> a dying architecture, as proven by these graphs:
>>
Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
Please don't get me wrong, there are many things in which Tapestry
beats other frameworks. Not only Struts. Look at the hyped Wicket
framework. I have used it and can say I really dislike it. It is
utterly complex and the docs are the worst thing I have ever seen.
With Tapestry I could create a simple CRUD in 2 hours, without any
knowledge.
When it comes to SEO I think you'll find this link interesting:
http://code.google.com/intl/de-DE/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/getting-started.html
I expect my users to have JS on these days. And if I need JS I do a
webapplication, not just a website. Websites can be easily optimized
with Struts2. Webapplications - well do I need or even want to crawl
calculations or some other stuff? In my case not.
Anyway I fully agree that the frontend technology used by Tapestry
(components, yeah) is ways better then what is currently offered by
Struts.
But one should not say easily framework x is dead, just because
something is here which is better.
If it comes to ammo:
- T5 has excellent docs (compared to Wicket)
- T5 is so easy to learn (compared to Wicket) as Struts 2
- T5 supports view components (S2 does not, or not out of the box)
My personal killer feature: class reloading. Can only be done with
JRebel in S2. It saves much time, and time is money. Explain your
managers every deployment costs 4 minutes, you need to do 15 a day.
Cheers
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> One killer argument is SEO (search engine optimisation). Is your webapp
> publicly available and do you want to appear high in google results?
>
> Whilst google's algorithms are hidden, it is known that if searching for a
> ferarri, a site like
>
> www.mysite.com/cars/ferarri
>
> will appear higher in the search results for a site like
>
> wwww.mysite.com/cars?make=ferarri
>
> I'm not familiar with struts2 but if you are returning json, chances are
> that a lot of the site is invisible to the google crawler which does not
> execute javascript.
>
> Tapestry first draws pages with HTML (all links are simple a href=). It
> then decorates the page with ajax if javascript is available. This has the
> benefit that it gracefully degrades for clients with javascript disabled
> (think screen readers and the google crawler). If you have designed your
> tapestry pages correctly to return null for ajax actions where isXhr() is
> false (see taha's @XHR annotation) your pages should gracefully degrade.
>
> I'm not sure about struts2 but I know many sites will simply stop working
> and may simply display a blank page if javascript is disabled (I think this
> might be the case with GWT). Perhaps you could try turning off javascript
> in the browser then viewing each of your POC sites and get a feel for what
> a crawler will see. I know there are tools to help with SEO out there.
>
> Lance
>
> On Thursday, 26 January 2012, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Hey guys,
>>
>> while I agree that T5 is amazing I must say Struts2 is not so bad as it is
>> discussed here. There are far more bad frameworks out there. At least S2
> is
>> not dead, it is actively maintained and developed. Anyway - T5 does have
>> some pretty cool features (class reloading, it is amazing, or components)
>> which I really love. On Struts side I enjoy the easiness: make up an
> action
>> and return json. This way you have more a service layer with Struts and
> can
>> do whatever you want with JavaScript on the frontend.
>>
>> Again, I agree T5 is a great framework.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Christian
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Dmitriy Vsekhvalnov <
>> dvsekhvalnov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Seriously? Struts vs. T5?
>>>
>>> Go look to market which people you can find more easily & cheaper. At the
>>> very end someone have to support the app.
>>>
>>> Personally i will never go to pick-up struts job because it is dead.
>>> Unless you pay me significant more for my wasted time :)
>>>
>>> T5 simply the best web-framework in java world. So if you tied to java -
>>> go with it. If not.. you know :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Thim Anneesens <t.anneessens@ictjob.be
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the ammo guys ;).
>>>>
>>>> Thim.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 01/26/2012 10:20 AM, Kalle Korhonen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> (Thim, you don't know what poor English is...) It's always difficult
>>>> to win these arguments on technical merits alone, especially because
>>>> they are often looked at one-by-one instead of as a whole. If at all
>>>> possible, try to find an angle that your organization or your manager
>>>> deeply cares about. For example, if you had more people with Tapestry
>>>> experience than Struts people, that'd be a winning argument for me if
>>>> I was a manager. If you can't find anything else, try this: Struts is
>>>> a dying architecture, as proven by these graphs:
> http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.struts.usershttp://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.tapestry.usershttp://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=%22tapestry%205%22%2C%22apache%20struts%22&cmpt=q
>>>>
>>>> Granted, Tapestry doesn't fare that much better in these comparison
>>>> but before you doom Tapestry to oblivion, note that many other
>>>> programming languages, and especially web frameworks based on other
>>>> languages than Java have been chipping away Java's general popularity:
> http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=java%2C&cmpt=q
>>>>
>>>> Personally, of those choices, Struts would be the last one I'd pick.
>>>>
>>>> Kalle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be>
> <t....@ictjob.be> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Tapestry users,
>>>>
>>>> The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to implement
>>>> there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We
> did a
>>>> POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
>>>> We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that
>>>> Struts will win.
>>>>
>>>> The manager decision seams to revolve around the argument that if we
> can do
>>>> in Struts what we can do with Tapestry while keeping a code that is
>>>> relatively clean and readable, we should use Struts.
>>>>
>>>> *Does anyone have a killer use case that would be difficult to
> implement in
>>>> Struts and easy in Tapestry.*
>>>>
>>>> I already demonstrated the following about tapestry:
>>>>
>>>> * Better components in Tapestry than in Struts
>>>> * Better persistence tools (FLASH, CLIENT, SESSION ,SESSION STATE, ...)
>>>> * Cleaner templates
>>>> * Less code review because of the framework sensible conventions
>>>> * Better code navigability (when using an IDE)
>>>> * Better refactoring (most of the code is in Java)
>>>> * Coherence and homogeneity (One framework for all your needs / Struts
>>>> needs JSP, Freemarker, Spring services and Tiles to even compete )
>>>> * Strong Ajax support out of the box
>>>> * Powerful configuration with symbols
>>>> * Beautiful architecture (easy to remember because very sensible)
>>>> * Easy to extend or override most of the features
>>>> * Live class reloading
>>>> * Made with most of the common web use cases in mind (javascript, css,
>>>> ajax, session, query parameters, cookies, integration with backend,
>>>> ...).
>>>> * Everything at your fingertips with Injection and IoC
>>>>
>>>> These are more than sufficient to convince me that productivity and
>>>> maintainability will be far better with Tapestry than with Struts. But
>>>> unfortunately, I fail to demonstrate to the manager :(.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for my poor English and thanks in advance,
>>>>
>>>> Thim Anneessens.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> * Thim Anneessens
>>>> IT Department *
>>>>
>>>> [image: ictjob group]
>>>>
>>>> ictjob.be <http://www.ictjob.be>
>>>> Tel: +32 2 725 73 00
>>>> Ikaroslaan, 2
>>>> B-1930 Zaventem ictjob.lu <http://www.ictjob.lu>
>>>> Tel: +352 621 364 792
>>>> 12, rue Eugène Ruppert
>>>> L-2453 Luxembourg jobtic.fr <http://www.jobtic.fr>
>>>> Tel: +33 9 81 25 19 66
>>>> 19 rue Martel
>>>> 75010 Paris ticjob.es <http://www.ticjob.es>
>>>> Tel: +34 911 25 43 11
>>>> Calle Santo Tomé 4, 5B
>>>> 28004 Madrid ictjob.de <http://www.ictjob.de>
>>>> Tel: +49 711 91 41 07 32
>>>> Humboldtstr. 32
>>>> 70771 Leinfelden-Echterdingen
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.grobmeier.de
>> https://www.timeandbill.de
>>
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Lance Java <la...@googlemail.com>.
One killer argument is SEO (search engine optimisation). Is your webapp
publicly available and do you want to appear high in google results?
Whilst google's algorithms are hidden, it is known that if searching for a
ferarri, a site like
www.mysite.com/cars/ferarri
will appear higher in the search results for a site like
wwww.mysite.com/cars?make=ferarri
I'm not familiar with struts2 but if you are returning json, chances are
that a lot of the site is invisible to the google crawler which does not
execute javascript.
Tapestry first draws pages with HTML (all links are simple a href=). It
then decorates the page with ajax if javascript is available. This has the
benefit that it gracefully degrades for clients with javascript disabled
(think screen readers and the google crawler). If you have designed your
tapestry pages correctly to return null for ajax actions where isXhr() is
false (see taha's @XHR annotation) your pages should gracefully degrade.
I'm not sure about struts2 but I know many sites will simply stop working
and may simply display a blank page if javascript is disabled (I think this
might be the case with GWT). Perhaps you could try turning off javascript
in the browser then viewing each of your POC sites and get a feel for what
a crawler will see. I know there are tools to help with SEO out there.
Lance
On Thursday, 26 January 2012, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hey guys,
>
> while I agree that T5 is amazing I must say Struts2 is not so bad as it is
> discussed here. There are far more bad frameworks out there. At least S2
is
> not dead, it is actively maintained and developed. Anyway - T5 does have
> some pretty cool features (class reloading, it is amazing, or components)
> which I really love. On Struts side I enjoy the easiness: make up an
action
> and return json. This way you have more a service layer with Struts and
can
> do whatever you want with JavaScript on the frontend.
>
> Again, I agree T5 is a great framework.
>
> Cheers
> Christian
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Dmitriy Vsekhvalnov <
> dvsekhvalnov@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Seriously? Struts vs. T5?
>>
>> Go look to market which people you can find more easily & cheaper. At the
>> very end someone have to support the app.
>>
>> Personally i will never go to pick-up struts job because it is dead.
>> Unless you pay me significant more for my wasted time :)
>>
>> T5 simply the best web-framework in java world. So if you tied to java -
>> go with it. If not.. you know :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Thim Anneesens <t.anneessens@ictjob.be
>wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the ammo guys ;).
>>>
>>> Thim.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 01/26/2012 10:20 AM, Kalle Korhonen wrote:
>>>
>>> (Thim, you don't know what poor English is...) It's always difficult
>>> to win these arguments on technical merits alone, especially because
>>> they are often looked at one-by-one instead of as a whole. If at all
>>> possible, try to find an angle that your organization or your manager
>>> deeply cares about. For example, if you had more people with Tapestry
>>> experience than Struts people, that'd be a winning argument for me if
>>> I was a manager. If you can't find anything else, try this: Struts is
>>> a dying architecture, as proven by these graphs:
http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.struts.usershttp://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.tapestry.usershttp://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=%22tapestry%205%22%2C%22apache%20struts%22&cmpt=q
>>>
>>> Granted, Tapestry doesn't fare that much better in these comparison
>>> but before you doom Tapestry to oblivion, note that many other
>>> programming languages, and especially web frameworks based on other
>>> languages than Java have been chipping away Java's general popularity:
http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=java%2C&cmpt=q
>>>
>>> Personally, of those choices, Struts would be the last one I'd pick.
>>>
>>> Kalle
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be>
<t....@ictjob.be> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Tapestry users,
>>>
>>> The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to implement
>>> there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We
did a
>>> POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
>>> We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that
>>> Struts will win.
>>>
>>> The manager decision seams to revolve around the argument that if we
can do
>>> in Struts what we can do with Tapestry while keeping a code that is
>>> relatively clean and readable, we should use Struts.
>>>
>>> *Does anyone have a killer use case that would be difficult to
implement in
>>> Struts and easy in Tapestry.*
>>>
>>> I already demonstrated the following about tapestry:
>>>
>>> * Better components in Tapestry than in Struts
>>> * Better persistence tools (FLASH, CLIENT, SESSION ,SESSION STATE, ...)
>>> * Cleaner templates
>>> * Less code review because of the framework sensible conventions
>>> * Better code navigability (when using an IDE)
>>> * Better refactoring (most of the code is in Java)
>>> * Coherence and homogeneity (One framework for all your needs / Struts
>>> needs JSP, Freemarker, Spring services and Tiles to even compete )
>>> * Strong Ajax support out of the box
>>> * Powerful configuration with symbols
>>> * Beautiful architecture (easy to remember because very sensible)
>>> * Easy to extend or override most of the features
>>> * Live class reloading
>>> * Made with most of the common web use cases in mind (javascript, css,
>>> ajax, session, query parameters, cookies, integration with backend,
>>> ...).
>>> * Everything at your fingertips with Injection and IoC
>>>
>>> These are more than sufficient to convince me that productivity and
>>> maintainability will be far better with Tapestry than with Struts. But
>>> unfortunately, I fail to demonstrate to the manager :(.
>>>
>>> Sorry for my poor English and thanks in advance,
>>>
>>> Thim Anneessens.
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> * Thim Anneessens
>>> IT Department *
>>>
>>> [image: ictjob group]
>>>
>>> ictjob.be <http://www.ictjob.be>
>>> Tel: +32 2 725 73 00
>>> Ikaroslaan, 2
>>> B-1930 Zaventem ictjob.lu <http://www.ictjob.lu>
>>> Tel: +352 621 364 792
>>> 12, rue Eugène Ruppert
>>> L-2453 Luxembourg jobtic.fr <http://www.jobtic.fr>
>>> Tel: +33 9 81 25 19 66
>>> 19 rue Martel
>>> 75010 Paris ticjob.es <http://www.ticjob.es>
>>> Tel: +34 911 25 43 11
>>> Calle Santo Tomé 4, 5B
>>> 28004 Madrid ictjob.de <http://www.ictjob.de>
>>> Tel: +49 711 91 41 07 32
>>> Humboldtstr. 32
>>> 70771 Leinfelden-Echterdingen
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> http://www.grobmeier.de
> https://www.timeandbill.de
>
Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
Hey guys,
while I agree that T5 is amazing I must say Struts2 is not so bad as it is
discussed here. There are far more bad frameworks out there. At least S2 is
not dead, it is actively maintained and developed. Anyway - T5 does have
some pretty cool features (class reloading, it is amazing, or components)
which I really love. On Struts side I enjoy the easiness: make up an action
and return json. This way you have more a service layer with Struts and can
do whatever you want with JavaScript on the frontend.
Again, I agree T5 is a great framework.
Cheers
Christian
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Dmitriy Vsekhvalnov <
dvsekhvalnov@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seriously? Struts vs. T5?
>
> Go look to market which people you can find more easily & cheaper. At the
> very end someone have to support the app.
>
> Personally i will never go to pick-up struts job because it is dead.
> Unless you pay me significant more for my wasted time :)
>
> T5 simply the best web-framework in java world. So if you tied to java -
> go with it. If not.. you know :)
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be>wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the ammo guys ;).
>>
>> Thim.
>>
>>
>> On 01/26/2012 10:20 AM, Kalle Korhonen wrote:
>>
>> (Thim, you don't know what poor English is...) It's always difficult
>> to win these arguments on technical merits alone, especially because
>> they are often looked at one-by-one instead of as a whole. If at all
>> possible, try to find an angle that your organization or your manager
>> deeply cares about. For example, if you had more people with Tapestry
>> experience than Struts people, that'd be a winning argument for me if
>> I was a manager. If you can't find anything else, try this: Struts is
>> a dying architecture, as proven by these graphs:http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.struts.usershttp://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.tapestry.usershttp://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=%22tapestry%205%22%2C%22apache%20struts%22&cmpt=q
>>
>> Granted, Tapestry doesn't fare that much better in these comparison
>> but before you doom Tapestry to oblivion, note that many other
>> programming languages, and especially web frameworks based on other
>> languages than Java have been chipping away Java's general popularity:http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=java%2C&cmpt=q
>>
>> Personally, of those choices, Struts would be the last one I'd pick.
>>
>> Kalle
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be> <t....@ictjob.be> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Tapestry users,
>>
>> The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to implement
>> there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We did a
>> POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
>> We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that
>> Struts will win.
>>
>> The manager decision seams to revolve around the argument that if we can do
>> in Struts what we can do with Tapestry while keeping a code that is
>> relatively clean and readable, we should use Struts.
>>
>> *Does anyone have a killer use case that would be difficult to implement in
>> Struts and easy in Tapestry.*
>>
>> I already demonstrated the following about tapestry:
>>
>> * Better components in Tapestry than in Struts
>> * Better persistence tools (FLASH, CLIENT, SESSION ,SESSION STATE, ...)
>> * Cleaner templates
>> * Less code review because of the framework sensible conventions
>> * Better code navigability (when using an IDE)
>> * Better refactoring (most of the code is in Java)
>> * Coherence and homogeneity (One framework for all your needs / Struts
>> needs JSP, Freemarker, Spring services and Tiles to even compete )
>> * Strong Ajax support out of the box
>> * Powerful configuration with symbols
>> * Beautiful architecture (easy to remember because very sensible)
>> * Easy to extend or override most of the features
>> * Live class reloading
>> * Made with most of the common web use cases in mind (javascript, css,
>> ajax, session, query parameters, cookies, integration with backend,
>> ...).
>> * Everything at your fingertips with Injection and IoC
>>
>> These are more than sufficient to convince me that productivity and
>> maintainability will be far better with Tapestry than with Struts. But
>> unfortunately, I fail to demonstrate to the manager :(.
>>
>> Sorry for my poor English and thanks in advance,
>>
>> Thim Anneessens.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>>
>>
>> --
>> * Thim Anneessens
>> IT Department *
>>
>> [image: ictjob group]
>>
>> ictjob.be <http://www.ictjob.be>
>> Tel: +32 2 725 73 00
>> Ikaroslaan, 2
>> B-1930 Zaventem ictjob.lu <http://www.ictjob.lu>
>> Tel: +352 621 364 792
>> 12, rue Eugène Ruppert
>> L-2453 Luxembourg jobtic.fr <http://www.jobtic.fr>
>> Tel: +33 9 81 25 19 66
>> 19 rue Martel
>> 75010 Paris ticjob.es <http://www.ticjob.es>
>> Tel: +34 911 25 43 11
>> Calle Santo Tomé 4, 5B
>> 28004 Madrid ictjob.de <http://www.ictjob.de>
>> Tel: +49 711 91 41 07 32
>> Humboldtstr. 32
>> 70771 Leinfelden-Echterdingen
>>
>
>
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de
Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Dmitriy Vsekhvalnov <dv...@gmail.com>.
Seriously? Struts vs. T5?
Go look to market which people you can find more easily & cheaper. At the
very end someone have to support the app.
Personally i will never go to pick-up struts job because it is dead. Unless
you pay me significant more for my wasted time :)
T5 simply the best web-framework in java world. So if you tied to java - go
with it. If not.. you know :)
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be>wrote:
> Thanks for the ammo guys ;).
>
> Thim.
>
>
> On 01/26/2012 10:20 AM, Kalle Korhonen wrote:
>
> (Thim, you don't know what poor English is...) It's always difficult
> to win these arguments on technical merits alone, especially because
> they are often looked at one-by-one instead of as a whole. If at all
> possible, try to find an angle that your organization or your manager
> deeply cares about. For example, if you had more people with Tapestry
> experience than Struts people, that'd be a winning argument for me if
> I was a manager. If you can't find anything else, try this: Struts is
> a dying architecture, as proven by these graphs:http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.struts.usershttp://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.tapestry.usershttp://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=%22tapestry%205%22%2C%22apache%20struts%22&cmpt=q
>
> Granted, Tapestry doesn't fare that much better in these comparison
> but before you doom Tapestry to oblivion, note that many other
> programming languages, and especially web frameworks based on other
> languages than Java have been chipping away Java's general popularity:http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=java%2C&cmpt=q
>
> Personally, of those choices, Struts would be the last one I'd pick.
>
> Kalle
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be> <t....@ictjob.be> wrote:
>
> Hello Tapestry users,
>
> The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to implement
> there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We did a
> POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
> We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that
> Struts will win.
>
> The manager decision seams to revolve around the argument that if we can do
> in Struts what we can do with Tapestry while keeping a code that is
> relatively clean and readable, we should use Struts.
>
> *Does anyone have a killer use case that would be difficult to implement in
> Struts and easy in Tapestry.*
>
> I already demonstrated the following about tapestry:
>
> * Better components in Tapestry than in Struts
> * Better persistence tools (FLASH, CLIENT, SESSION ,SESSION STATE, ...)
> * Cleaner templates
> * Less code review because of the framework sensible conventions
> * Better code navigability (when using an IDE)
> * Better refactoring (most of the code is in Java)
> * Coherence and homogeneity (One framework for all your needs / Struts
> needs JSP, Freemarker, Spring services and Tiles to even compete )
> * Strong Ajax support out of the box
> * Powerful configuration with symbols
> * Beautiful architecture (easy to remember because very sensible)
> * Easy to extend or override most of the features
> * Live class reloading
> * Made with most of the common web use cases in mind (javascript, css,
> ajax, session, query parameters, cookies, integration with backend,
> ...).
> * Everything at your fingertips with Injection and IoC
>
> These are more than sufficient to convince me that productivity and
> maintainability will be far better with Tapestry than with Struts. But
> unfortunately, I fail to demonstrate to the manager :(.
>
> Sorry for my poor English and thanks in advance,
>
> Thim Anneessens.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
> --
> * Thim Anneessens
> IT Department *
>
> [image: ictjob group]
>
> ictjob.be <http://www.ictjob.be>
> Tel: +32 2 725 73 00
> Ikaroslaan, 2
> B-1930 Zaventem ictjob.lu <http://www.ictjob.lu>
> Tel: +352 621 364 792
> 12, rue Eugène Ruppert
> L-2453 Luxembourg jobtic.fr <http://www.jobtic.fr>
> Tel: +33 9 81 25 19 66
> 19 rue Martel
> 75010 Paris ticjob.es <http://www.ticjob.es>
> Tel: +34 911 25 43 11
> Calle Santo Tomé 4, 5B
> 28004 Madrid ictjob.de <http://www.ictjob.de>
> Tel: +49 711 91 41 07 32
> Humboldtstr. 32
> 70771 Leinfelden-Echterdingen
>
Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be>.
Thanks for the ammo guys ;).
Thim.
On 01/26/2012 10:20 AM, Kalle Korhonen wrote:
> (Thim, you don't know what poor English is...) It's always difficult
> to win these arguments on technical merits alone, especially because
> they are often looked at one-by-one instead of as a whole. If at all
> possible, try to find an angle that your organization or your manager
> deeply cares about. For example, if you had more people with Tapestry
> experience than Struts people, that'd be a winning argument for me if
> I was a manager. If you can't find anything else, try this: Struts is
> a dying architecture, as proven by these graphs:
> http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.struts.users
> http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.tapestry.users
> http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=%22tapestry%205%22%2C%22apache%20struts%22&cmpt=q
>
> Granted, Tapestry doesn't fare that much better in these comparison
> but before you doom Tapestry to oblivion, note that many other
> programming languages, and especially web frameworks based on other
> languages than Java have been chipping away Java's general popularity:
> http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=java%2C&cmpt=q
>
> Personally, of those choices, Struts would be the last one I'd pick.
>
> Kalle
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Thim Anneesens<t....@ictjob.be> wrote:
>> Hello Tapestry users,
>>
>> The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to implement
>> there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We did a
>> POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
>> We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that
>> Struts will win.
>>
>> The manager decision seams to revolve around the argument that if we can do
>> in Struts what we can do with Tapestry while keeping a code that is
>> relatively clean and readable, we should use Struts.
>>
>> *Does anyone have a killer use case that would be difficult to implement in
>> Struts and easy in Tapestry.*
>>
>> I already demonstrated the following about tapestry:
>>
>> * Better components in Tapestry than in Struts
>> * Better persistence tools (FLASH, CLIENT, SESSION ,SESSION STATE, ...)
>> * Cleaner templates
>> * Less code review because of the framework sensible conventions
>> * Better code navigability (when using an IDE)
>> * Better refactoring (most of the code is in Java)
>> * Coherence and homogeneity (One framework for all your needs / Struts
>> needs JSP, Freemarker, Spring services and Tiles to even compete )
>> * Strong Ajax support out of the box
>> * Powerful configuration with symbols
>> * Beautiful architecture (easy to remember because very sensible)
>> * Easy to extend or override most of the features
>> * Live class reloading
>> * Made with most of the common web use cases in mind (javascript, css,
>> ajax, session, query parameters, cookies, integration with backend,
>> ...).
>> * Everything at your fingertips with Injection and IoC
>>
>> These are more than sufficient to convince me that productivity and
>> maintainability will be far better with Tapestry than with Struts. But
>> unfortunately, I fail to demonstrate to the manager :(.
>>
>> Sorry for my poor English and thanks in advance,
>>
>> Thim Anneessens.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
*Thim Anneessens
IT Department *
ictjob group
ictjob.be <http://www.ictjob.be>
Tel: +32 2 725 73 00
Ikaroslaan, 2
B-1930 Zaventem ictjob.lu <http://www.ictjob.lu>
Tel: +352 621 364 792
12, rue Eugène Ruppert
L-2453 Luxembourg jobtic.fr <http://www.jobtic.fr>
Tel: +33 9 81 25 19 66
19 rue Martel
75010 Paris ticjob.es <http://www.ticjob.es>
Tel: +34 911 25 43 11
Calle Santo Tomé 4, 5B
28004 Madrid ictjob.de <http://www.ictjob.de>
Tel: +49 711 91 41 07 32
Humboldtstr. 32
70771 Leinfelden-Echterdingen
Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Kalle Korhonen <ka...@gmail.com>.
(Thim, you don't know what poor English is...) It's always difficult
to win these arguments on technical merits alone, especially because
they are often looked at one-by-one instead of as a whole. If at all
possible, try to find an angle that your organization or your manager
deeply cares about. For example, if you had more people with Tapestry
experience than Struts people, that'd be a winning argument for me if
I was a manager. If you can't find anything else, try this: Struts is
a dying architecture, as proven by these graphs:
http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.struts.users
http://markmail.org/search/?q=list%3Aorg.apache.tapestry.users
http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=%22tapestry%205%22%2C%22apache%20struts%22&cmpt=q
Granted, Tapestry doesn't fare that much better in these comparison
but before you doom Tapestry to oblivion, note that many other
programming languages, and especially web frameworks based on other
languages than Java have been chipping away Java's general popularity:
http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=java%2C&cmpt=q
Personally, of those choices, Struts would be the last one I'd pick.
Kalle
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be> wrote:
> Hello Tapestry users,
>
> The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to implement
> there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We did a
> POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
> We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that
> Struts will win.
>
> The manager decision seams to revolve around the argument that if we can do
> in Struts what we can do with Tapestry while keeping a code that is
> relatively clean and readable, we should use Struts.
>
> *Does anyone have a killer use case that would be difficult to implement in
> Struts and easy in Tapestry.*
>
> I already demonstrated the following about tapestry:
>
> * Better components in Tapestry than in Struts
> * Better persistence tools (FLASH, CLIENT, SESSION ,SESSION STATE, ...)
> * Cleaner templates
> * Less code review because of the framework sensible conventions
> * Better code navigability (when using an IDE)
> * Better refactoring (most of the code is in Java)
> * Coherence and homogeneity (One framework for all your needs / Struts
> needs JSP, Freemarker, Spring services and Tiles to even compete )
> * Strong Ajax support out of the box
> * Powerful configuration with symbols
> * Beautiful architecture (easy to remember because very sensible)
> * Easy to extend or override most of the features
> * Live class reloading
> * Made with most of the common web use cases in mind (javascript, css,
> ajax, session, query parameters, cookies, integration with backend,
> ...).
> * Everything at your fingertips with Injection and IoC
>
> These are more than sufficient to convince me that productivity and
> maintainability will be far better with Tapestry than with Struts. But
> unfortunately, I fail to demonstrate to the manager :(.
>
> Sorry for my poor English and thanks in advance,
>
> Thim Anneessens.
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Chris Mylonas <ch...@opencsta.org>.
well if i wasn't a techo i'd ask how many of the staff are familiar with X first up.
then.... being a web framework, can the business layer be developed without the web work being done (i.e. can it be separated later when the next round of framework vs framework comes)
tapestry5 is the first web framework in java i've looked at because (i use ejb3) it was actually good/awesome (no that that means anything to your managers)
On 26/01/2012, at 7:33 PM, Thim Anneesens wrote:
> Hello Tapestry users,
>
> The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to implement there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We did a POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
> We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that Struts will win.
>
> The manager decision seams to revolve around the argument that if we can do in Struts what we can do with Tapestry while keeping a code that is relatively clean and readable, we should use Struts.
>
> *Does anyone have a killer use case that would be difficult to implement in Struts and easy in Tapestry.*
>
> I already demonstrated the following about tapestry:
>
> * Better components in Tapestry than in Struts
> * Better persistence tools (FLASH, CLIENT, SESSION ,SESSION STATE, ...)
> * Cleaner templates
> * Less code review because of the framework sensible conventions
> * Better code navigability (when using an IDE)
> * Better refactoring (most of the code is in Java)
> * Coherence and homogeneity (One framework for all your needs / Struts
> needs JSP, Freemarker, Spring services and Tiles to even compete )
> * Strong Ajax support out of the box
> * Powerful configuration with symbols
> * Beautiful architecture (easy to remember because very sensible)
> * Easy to extend or override most of the features
> * Live class reloading
> * Made with most of the common web use cases in mind (javascript, css,
> ajax, session, query parameters, cookies, integration with backend,
> ...).
> * Everything at your fingertips with Injection and IoC
>
> These are more than sufficient to convince me that productivity and maintainability will be far better with Tapestry than with Struts. But unfortunately, I fail to demonstrate to the manager :(.
>
> Sorry for my poor English and thanks in advance,
>
> Thim Anneessens.
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be>.
It's true that I got allot of answers. Somebody said also something
about the documentation and I must agree that the quality of it is
impressive. Jumpstart also helps you find solutions to common problems.
Tapestry users seem also very vibrant about the technology (I know I am
:) ) and that is a good sign for the future.
On 01/26/2012 01:46 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 06:33:14 -0200, Thim Anneesens
> <t....@ictjob.be> wrote:
>
>> Hello Tapestry users,
>
> Hi!
>
> Many people said many good reasons. I'd just add the community (the
> mailing list usually provides very good answers in very short times),
> the framework flexibility (you have at least one way to change almost
> any Tapestry behavior and to add functionality) and the live class
> reloading, which improves developer productivity dramatically (and
> your manager will love to hear this).
>
--
*Thim Anneessens
IT Department *
ictjob group
ictjob.be <http://www.ictjob.be>
Tel: +32 2 725 73 00
Ikaroslaan, 2
B-1930 Zaventem ictjob.lu <http://www.ictjob.lu>
Tel: +352 621 364 792
12, rue Eugène Ruppert
L-2453 Luxembourg jobtic.fr <http://www.jobtic.fr>
Tel: +33 9 81 25 19 66
19 rue Martel
75010 Paris ticjob.es <http://www.ticjob.es>
Tel: +34 911 25 43 11
Calle Santo Tomé 4, 5B
28004 Madrid ictjob.de <http://www.ictjob.de>
Tel: +49 711 91 41 07 32
Humboldtstr. 32
70771 Leinfelden-Echterdingen
Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 06:33:14 -0200, Thim Anneesens
<t....@ictjob.be> wrote:
> Hello Tapestry users,
Hi!
Many people said many good reasons. I'd just add the community (the
mailing list usually provides very good answers in very short times), the
framework flexibility (you have at least one way to change almost any
Tapestry behavior and to add functionality) and the live class reloading,
which improves developer productivity dramatically (and your manager will
love to hear this).
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by derkoe <ta...@gmail.com>.
Thim Anneesens wrote
>
> Hello Tapestry users,
>
Hi!
Thim Anneesens wrote
>
> The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to implement
> there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We did
> a POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
> We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that
> Struts will win.
>
Are there any reasons why Struts is winning? I think Struts is quite an old
framework and I won't use it in a new project.
When you are looking for a new web framework look at the requirements of
your project. Do you want to have a component framework (like JSF and
Tapestry) or an action framework (like Spring MVC and Struts)? Do you need
to adhere to standards (JSF, EJB, etc.)? How many users will use your app -
do you need to be stateless (this will sort out some frameworks)? Are all
you programmers well trained in HTML/JS (if you have just some web gurus
then a component framework will be better)? How big will your app be? Will
it be modularized (if yes Tapestry will be a very good choice)?
This article might help with some considerations:
http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/other/15-most-important-considerations-when-choosing-a-web-development-framework/
I guess Tapestry is a good general purpose framework - so you can use it for
web sites with thousands of users and for complex internal admin apps with
just a few users.
Tapestry is especially good for modular web applications and for
encapsulating JS/AJAX (so that just some developers have to know how). You
can also implement cross-cutting concerns better than in any other web
framework I know.
PS:
I think it's quite strange that Struts and Tapestry are your final
candidates since the main choice (component vs. action) would lead to
another grouping.
--
View this message in context: http://tapestry.1045711.n5.nabble.com/Stuts-VS-Tapestry-I-need-some-ammo-tp5432282p5432725.html
Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Gunnar Eketrapp <gu...@gmail.com>.
I forgot one thing!
Line-Precise-Error-Reporting !!!!!
The elegent error handling in Tapestry is one of the strongest point.
I did not see that in you list.
If your developers are like me they sometimes make errors.
LPER leads to faster development. Together with live class reloading it's a
winner!
Cheers!
2012/1/26 Gunnar Eketrapp <gu...@gmail.com>
> Clean and readable ....
>
> Having worked with Spring MVC, JSP, Struts and finally found Tapestry I
> can just tell that a web project gets much much more "Clean and Readable"
> when choosing T5.
>
> The elegant page and component folder structure leads to an easy-to-locate
> whatever you are searching for.
>
> It's always hard to win these arguments since people are often suspicious
> to new unproven (in their minds) technology.
>
> If the POC was not enough to convince you manager it was probably not a
> god POC or probably not a god manager.
>
> If you want to be close to the web (html, css, js) I can't think of any
> better more robust framework then T5.
>
> Struts was a mess when I tried it seven years ago but perhaps it has
> matured since then (actually T4 was a little bit messy then as well ...)
>
> I looked at http://struts.apache.org/primer.html and saw that they are
> referring to .jsp as key technology.
> If there where a minus one button somewhere I would press that one ...
>
> Gunnar Eketrapp
>
> 2012/1/26 Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be>
>
>> Hello Tapestry users,
>>
>> The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to implement
>> there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We did a
>> POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
>> We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that
>> Struts will win.
>>
>> The manager decision seams to revolve around the argument that if we can
>> do in Struts what we can do with Tapestry while keeping a code that is
>> relatively clean and readable, we should use Struts.
>>
>> *Does anyone have a killer use case that would be difficult to implement
>> in Struts and easy in Tapestry.*
>>
>> I already demonstrated the following about tapestry:
>>
>> * Better components in Tapestry than in Struts
>> * Better persistence tools (FLASH, CLIENT, SESSION ,SESSION STATE, ...)
>> * Cleaner templates
>> * Less code review because of the framework sensible conventions
>> * Better code navigability (when using an IDE)
>> * Better refactoring (most of the code is in Java)
>> * Coherence and homogeneity (One framework for all your needs / Struts
>> needs JSP, Freemarker, Spring services and Tiles to even compete )
>> * Strong Ajax support out of the box
>> * Powerful configuration with symbols
>> * Beautiful architecture (easy to remember because very sensible)
>> * Easy to extend or override most of the features
>> * Live class reloading
>> * Made with most of the common web use cases in mind (javascript, css,
>> ajax, session, query parameters, cookies, integration with backend,
>> ...).
>> * Everything at your fingertips with Injection and IoC
>>
>> These are more than sufficient to convince me that productivity and
>> maintainability will be far better with Tapestry than with Struts. But
>> unfortunately, I fail to demonstrate to the manager :(.
>>
>> Sorry for my poor English and thanks in advance,
>>
>> Thim Anneessens.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> [Hem: 08-715 59 57, Mobil: 070-991 86 42]
> Allévägen 2A, 132 42 Saltsjö-Boo
>
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Re: Stuts VS Tapestry - I need some ammo
Posted by Gunnar Eketrapp <gu...@gmail.com>.
Clean and readable ....
Having worked with Spring MVC, JSP, Struts and finally found Tapestry I can
just tell that a web project gets much much more "Clean and Readable" when
choosing T5.
The elegant page and component folder structure leads to an easy-to-locate
whatever you are searching for.
It's always hard to win these arguments since people are often suspicious
to new unproven (in their minds) technology.
If the POC was not enough to convince you manager it was probably not a god
POC or probably not a god manager.
If you want to be close to the web (html, css, js) I can't think of any
better more robust framework then T5.
Struts was a mess when I tried it seven years ago but perhaps it has
matured since then (actually T4 was a little bit messy then as well ...)
I looked at http://struts.apache.org/primer.html and saw that they are
referring to .jsp as key technology.
If there where a minus one button somewhere I would press that one ...
Gunnar Eketrapp
2012/1/26 Thim Anneesens <t....@ictjob.be>
> Hello Tapestry users,
>
> The company where I work is going to choose a web framework to implement
> there site (the company core business revolves around that site). We did a
> POC with Spirng MVC, JSF, Struts and Tapestry.
> We have shortlisted to Struts and Tapestry and I have the feeling that
> Struts will win.
>
> The manager decision seams to revolve around the argument that if we can
> do in Struts what we can do with Tapestry while keeping a code that is
> relatively clean and readable, we should use Struts.
>
> *Does anyone have a killer use case that would be difficult to implement
> in Struts and easy in Tapestry.*
>
> I already demonstrated the following about tapestry:
>
> * Better components in Tapestry than in Struts
> * Better persistence tools (FLASH, CLIENT, SESSION ,SESSION STATE, ...)
> * Cleaner templates
> * Less code review because of the framework sensible conventions
> * Better code navigability (when using an IDE)
> * Better refactoring (most of the code is in Java)
> * Coherence and homogeneity (One framework for all your needs / Struts
> needs JSP, Freemarker, Spring services and Tiles to even compete )
> * Strong Ajax support out of the box
> * Powerful configuration with symbols
> * Beautiful architecture (easy to remember because very sensible)
> * Easy to extend or override most of the features
> * Live class reloading
> * Made with most of the common web use cases in mind (javascript, css,
> ajax, session, query parameters, cookies, integration with backend,
> ...).
> * Everything at your fingertips with Injection and IoC
>
> These are more than sufficient to convince me that productivity and
> maintainability will be far better with Tapestry than with Struts. But
> unfortunately, I fail to demonstrate to the manager :(.
>
> Sorry for my poor English and thanks in advance,
>
> Thim Anneessens.
>
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