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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> on 2003/01/29 03:06:15 UTC
nice
http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mystery
-Andy
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RE: nice
Posted by Tom Copeland <to...@infoether.com>.
http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/godwin_s_law.html
Tom
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Micael [mailto:caraunltd@harbornet.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 12:20 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: nice
>
>
> I think the next improvement on who decides should mention
> guns, anthrax, etc.?
>
> At 10:08 AM 1/29/03 -0500, you wrote:
> >Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >>"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes
> >>decide everything."
> >>--Josef Stalin
> >
> >Actually, the latest update to this is, "The court that
> decides whether to
> >recount the votes... decides everything."
> >
> >--
> >Serge Knystautas
> >President
> >Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
> >p. 301.656.5501
> >e. sergek@lokitech.com
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Re: nice
Posted by Micael <ca...@harbornet.com>.
I think the next improvement on who decides should mention guns, anthrax, etc.?
At 10:08 AM 1/29/03 -0500, you wrote:
>Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes
>>decide everything."
>>--Josef Stalin
>
>Actually, the latest update to this is, "The court that decides whether to
>recount the votes... decides everything."
>
>--
>Serge Knystautas
>President
>Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
>p. 301.656.5501
>e. sergek@lokitech.com
>
>
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Re: nice
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes
> decide everything."
> --Josef Stalin
Actually, the latest update to this is, "The court that decides whether
to recount the votes... decides everything."
--
Serge Knystautas
President
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
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Re: nice
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes
decide everything."
--Josef Stalin
Robert Simmons wrote:
> JCP is the Java community process. A federation of hundreds of companies that
> produces standards (such as EJB) for the Java community. Anyone can be a
> member and your vote counts. JCP is what Java has that .NET never will and
> that is why .NET will win.
>
> -- Robert
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@generationjava.com>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM
> Subject: Re: nice
>
>
>
>>Interesting points.
>>
>>Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is
>>it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with
>>the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists]
>>role?
>>
>>[Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP].
>>
>>Hen
>>
>>On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
>>
> http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mys
> tery
>
>>>-Andy
>>>
>>>
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Re: nice
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Robert Simmons wrote:
> Welcome to real life business. In the real world, not everything goes your
> way. You get to choose between a mass of "political bullshit" and having no
> choice at all.
you have a choice: open source software. And it's a good choice for real
life business, too.
cheers :D
- Leo
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Re: nice
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It
> is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up
> that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should.
Yay! +1
Cluetrain might be the naive interpretation of that, but still it's a
good way to deal with the so-called 'real-life' without becoming a cynic.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: nice
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
(...)
> Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It
> is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up
> that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should.
>
IMO, the closeness of the JCP process brings most of the "bullshitness"
of it.
Even having open (to read, not to post) lists for the different groups
would change a lot of the JCP procedures and results, by making obvious
"dark" political moves attackable from the outside.
Regards,
Santiago
> -jon
>
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Re: nice
Posted by ac...@apache.org.
> There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure
> agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound
> by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP
> discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up.
>
+1 - especially if a goal of it is to foster change within the JCP and
promote an open model for the JCP and Java.
-Andy
> geir
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w)
> Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m)
> geirm@adeptra.com
>
>
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Re: nice
Posted by ac...@apache.org.
Right but he's not AFAIK working there now and potentially exposed to
NDA-tainted individuals :-)
-Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pier Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org>
To: <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Cc: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: nice
> On 30/1/03 13:26 "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 10:03 AM, acoliver@apache.org wrote:
> >
> >> Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig
at
> >> Microsoft. (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java). Had I
sold
> >> my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache?
> >
> > In my brief association with the ASF, I have never heard of a person
> > being discriminated against because of their employer.
>
> Let's not forget that our CHAIRMAN (Greg Stein) worked for quite an
> extensive period at Microsoft... And he's one of the nicest guys I've met
in
> my entire life:
>
> From <http://www.lyra.org/greg/>:
>
> > Between 1996 and 1998, Mr. Stein worked at Microsoft as a Development
Manager,
> > in the Commerce Server and Site Server groups. He was also a co-founder
and
> > the Corporate Technologist of eShop, one of the first electronic
commerce
> > software companies, before its acquisition by Microsoft in 1996.
>
> Pier
>
>
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Re: nice
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
On 30/1/03 13:26 "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 10:03 AM, acoliver@apache.org wrote:
>
>> Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig at
>> Microsoft. (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java). Had I sold
>> my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache?
>
> In my brief association with the ASF, I have never heard of a person
> being discriminated against because of their employer.
Let's not forget that our CHAIRMAN (Greg Stein) worked for quite an
extensive period at Microsoft... And he's one of the nicest guys I've met in
my entire life:
>From <http://www.lyra.org/greg/>:
> Between 1996 and 1998, Mr. Stein worked at Microsoft as a Development Manager,
> in the Commerce Server and Site Server groups. He was also a co-founder and
> the Corporate Technologist of eShop, one of the first electronic commerce
> software companies, before its acquisition by Microsoft in 1996.
Pier
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Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]
Posted by ac...@apache.org.
Extemely well said.
Please get well soon my friend! :-)
-Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Santiago Gala" <sg...@hisitech.com>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:30 AM
Subject: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
>
> (...)
> > It's the compromise we/I willingly make to be able to work inside the
> > process to help shape it the way we/I think it should be shaped. The
> > only alternative is to try to start another standards body, but I think
> > you will find that, like the other standards bodies, that NDA's will be
> > a part of the process if you want serious players to participate. One
> > of the big issues surrounding standards is the inclusion/discussion of
> > proprietary information offered by participating entities (companies).
> > Whether or not you like the existence of commercial entities in the
> > process, they are there.
> >
>
> OK, I'll buy the previous paragraph. But that the participants do sign a
> NDA does not mean that the group is silent throughout the process, as it
> often happens with current JSRs. While I can understand that some of the
> discussions should remain secret, I think that partial agreements (or
> blocked areas), roadmaps, current work, etc. could and should be
> communicated, and also feedback asked more frequently. At a bare
> minimum, a JSR should publish something (be it a status report, demo,
> API proposal, open issue list, recount of activity,...) at least every
> three months, and use this information to gather feedback from the
> outside via a public discussion list.
>
> I think the spirit is something along these lines, with the public draft
> phase, etc., but I think the process can be (and sometimes is) seriously
> abused. I also think that the temporal granularity of the process was
> meant to be much smaller than it is becoming, so the concerns I express
> do apply more and more.
>
> Another *constructive* suggestion could be having a different role,
> people that would not be forced to sign a NDA, and thus could only be
> exposed to "public domain" information, but who could be involved in the
> process restricted to this. This would enforce even more the need of
> regular unrestricted feed back. These people could act as "hubs" between
> public lists and the EG.
>
> The whole process reminds me of the bullshit that the European Esprit
> Program became some time ago, where any company could refrain from
> having to justify public money by just saying that the work was "a
> commercial trade". I've played in this field already, and in both sides.
;-)
>
> Regards, (I'm trying to be as much constructive as I can, being in bed
> with a flu and my back aching, pending a NMR test to see if it is
> damaged or not ...)
> Santiago
>
> > geir
> >
>
>
>
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Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
(...) agreed
>
> Yes - indeed. The idea is to have more public participation (vote early
> and often, as they say in Chicago :) in the process w/o the EG having to
> expand to include only the mildly interested, and w/o having constraints
> like an NDA placed on the mildly interested participants.
>
It would bring global health to the process, I would say, even if the
public participation was restricted to voice and lobbying from the
outside, with no vote in the process.
> One things I'll say in their defense of general spec lead behavior is
> that a JSR is a *lot* of work - I have garnered great respect in general
> for those leading JSR's to successful conclusions, so it's hard to want
> to dictate a project management style...
>
I agree, and it is precisely the kind of work that I'm very bad at doing
(except maybe for detecting incoherent documents, or things like this),
so I would not take this role eagerly. I also respect them a lot.
But a lot of the work is political, making "minimum agreements",
unblocking issues, etc. Judicious use of open lists to help promote
general approaches to problems, to "test the water", or to try to get
feedback or pressure to pass political blockings could *ease* it, rather
than the opposite. (I'm quite sure that Stefano, for instance, would
know how to manage a JSR this way :-)
Regards,
Santiago
> geir
>
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Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:30 AM, Santiago Gala wrote:
>
> Agreed, good supporting feedback, and this is something that is a
> current topic of interest in the JCP EC. We (the members of the EC,
> the ASF being a member) are interested in encouraging openness in the
> process from the start via support for open mail lists, etc, as well as
> more public reviews. However, it's still up to the JSR leads. I guess
> one thing I can do as the EC rep is ensure that for every new JSR that
> comes up for a vote for acceptance to continue, I lobby the spec lead /
> EG to make it as open as possible.
Make the open JSR's open. ie) Give me a list of the JSRs which do have
open mail lists and public reviews etc. Especially public reviews in which
the public discuss, not just write-only emails.
Cultivating an image that the ASF, and yourself on behalf of the ASF, are
doing their best to open-up the JCP seems like a good thing.
> > Another *constructive* suggestion could be having a different role,
> > people that would not be forced to sign a NDA, and thus could only be
> > exposed to "public domain" information, but who could be involved in
> > the process restricted to this. This would enforce even more the need
> > of regular unrestricted feed back. These people could act as "hubs"
> > between public lists and the EG.
>
> Yes - indeed. The idea is to have more public participation (vote
> early and often, as they say in Chicago :) in the process w/o the EG
> having to expand to include only the mildly interested, and w/o having
> constraints like an NDA placed on the mildly interested participants.
>
> One things I'll say in their defense of general spec lead behavior is
> that a JSR is a *lot* of work - I have garnered great respect in
> general for those leading JSR's to successful conclusions, so it's hard
> to want to dictate a project management style...
Good point. Open-ness does lead to mayhem.
Hen
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Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:30 AM, Santiago Gala wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> (...)
>> It's the compromise we/I willingly make to be able to work inside the
>> process to help shape it the way we/I think it should be shaped. The
>> only alternative is to try to start another standards body, but I
>> think you will find that, like the other standards bodies, that NDA's
>> will be a part of the process if you want serious players to
>> participate. One of the big issues surrounding standards is the
>> inclusion/discussion of proprietary information offered by
>> participating entities (companies). Whether or not you like the
>> existence of commercial entities in the process, they are there.
>
> OK, I'll buy the previous paragraph. But that the participants do sign
> a NDA does not mean that the group is silent throughout the process,
> as it often happens with current JSRs. While I can understand that
> some of the discussions should remain secret, I think that partial
> agreements (or blocked areas), roadmaps, current work, etc. could and
> should be communicated, and also feedback asked more frequently. At a
> bare minimum, a JSR should publish something (be it a status report,
> demo, API proposal, open issue list, recount of activity,...) at least
> every three months, and use this information to gather feedback from
> the outside via a public discussion list.
Agreed, good supporting feedback, and this is something that is a
current topic of interest in the JCP EC. We (the members of the EC,
the ASF being a member) are interested in encouraging openness in the
process from the start via support for open mail lists, etc, as well as
more public reviews. However, it's still up to the JSR leads. I guess
one thing I can do as the EC rep is ensure that for every new JSR that
comes up for a vote for acceptance to continue, I lobby the spec lead /
EG to make it as open as possible.
>
> I think the spirit is something along these lines, with the public
> draft phase, etc., but I think the process can be (and sometimes is)
> seriously abused. I also think that the temporal granularity of the
> process was meant to be much smaller than it is becoming, so the
> concerns I express do apply more and more.
Yes - you are right.
>
> Another *constructive* suggestion could be having a different role,
> people that would not be forced to sign a NDA, and thus could only be
> exposed to "public domain" information, but who could be involved in
> the process restricted to this. This would enforce even more the need
> of regular unrestricted feed back. These people could act as "hubs"
> between public lists and the EG.
Yes - indeed. The idea is to have more public participation (vote
early and often, as they say in Chicago :) in the process w/o the EG
having to expand to include only the mildly interested, and w/o having
constraints like an NDA placed on the mildly interested participants.
One things I'll say in their defense of general spec lead behavior is
that a JSR is a *lot* of work - I have garnered great respect in
general for those leading JSR's to successful conclusions, so it's hard
to want to dictate a project management style...
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w)
Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m)
geirm@adeptra.com
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JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
(...)
> It's the compromise we/I willingly make to be able to work inside the
> process to help shape it the way we/I think it should be shaped. The
> only alternative is to try to start another standards body, but I think
> you will find that, like the other standards bodies, that NDA's will be
> a part of the process if you want serious players to participate. One
> of the big issues surrounding standards is the inclusion/discussion of
> proprietary information offered by participating entities (companies).
> Whether or not you like the existence of commercial entities in the
> process, they are there.
>
OK, I'll buy the previous paragraph. But that the participants do sign a
NDA does not mean that the group is silent throughout the process, as it
often happens with current JSRs. While I can understand that some of the
discussions should remain secret, I think that partial agreements (or
blocked areas), roadmaps, current work, etc. could and should be
communicated, and also feedback asked more frequently. At a bare
minimum, a JSR should publish something (be it a status report, demo,
API proposal, open issue list, recount of activity,...) at least every
three months, and use this information to gather feedback from the
outside via a public discussion list.
I think the spirit is something along these lines, with the public draft
phase, etc., but I think the process can be (and sometimes is) seriously
abused. I also think that the temporal granularity of the process was
meant to be much smaller than it is becoming, so the concerns I express
do apply more and more.
Another *constructive* suggestion could be having a different role,
people that would not be forced to sign a NDA, and thus could only be
exposed to "public domain" information, but who could be involved in the
process restricted to this. This would enforce even more the need of
regular unrestricted feed back. These people could act as "hubs" between
public lists and the EG.
The whole process reminds me of the bullshit that the European Esprit
Program became some time ago, where any company could refrain from
having to justify public money by just saying that the work was "a
commercial trade". I've played in this field already, and in both sides. ;-)
Regards, (I'm trying to be as much constructive as I can, being in bed
with a flu and my back aching, pending a NMR test to see if it is
damaged or not ...)
Santiago
> geir
>
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Re: nice
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 10:03 AM, acoliver@apache.org wrote:
> Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig
> at
> Microsoft. (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java). Had
> I sold
> my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache?
In my brief association with the ASF, I have never heard of a person
being discriminated against because of their employer.
[SNIP]
> Or since the JCP seeks to create a spec for everything, what if I work
> for
> some other company which say puts out anything to do with "Micro"
> devices
> (pdas, etc) or portals. Am I a potential object of litigation just
> through
> my association with Apache and Apache's association with the JCP?
In the US, you are always a potential litigation target, no matter who
you work for, or what you do.
>
> I'd sure feel a lot less fear, uncertainty and doubt if all my fellow
> apache
> members weren't under NDAs carrying around tainted knowledge which is
> proprietary of Sun. It seems an open process would sure make the JCP a
> whole lot more appealing.
It's the compromise we/I willingly make to be able to work inside the
process to help shape it the way we/I think it should be shaped. The
only alternative is to try to start another standards body, but I think
you will find that, like the other standards bodies, that NDA's will be
a part of the process if you want serious players to participate. One
of the big issues surrounding standards is the inclusion/discussion of
proprietary information offered by participating entities (companies).
Whether or not you like the existence of commercial entities in the
process, they are there.
geir
>
> But then.... I'm weird like that.
>
> -Andy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@generationjava.com>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 9:38 AM
> Subject: Re: nice
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>
>>> We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE
>>> executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have
>>> many
>>> members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs.
>>
>> Yeah I know. Thus my questions as to whether Apache/you should/could
>> be
>> saying anything against the negative views of the JCP.
>>
>>> FYI - Through the significant efforts of Jason Hunter, the previous
>>> JCP
>>> rep, and others (Chuck Murko, for example), the ASF was instrumental
>>> in
>>> fostering change in the JCP process, and will continue to do so.
>>
>> This is about all I do hear regarding ASF/JCP.
>>
>>> There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure
>>> agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are
>>> bound
>>> by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open
>>> JCP
>>> discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up.
>>
>> Just the FAQs. Like, does Apache have a non-profit membership? So that
>> anyone who is an ASF member is able to be on multiple JSRs, or are
>> you all
>> members via your companies?
>>
>> As a member through Apache, does that cause any legal contractual
>> issues
>> with employers?
>>
>> Hen
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: nice
Posted by ac...@apache.org.
Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig at
Microsoft. (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java). Had I sold
my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache?
While I do not subscribe to the jcp ot apache det org mailing list due to
the NDA contractual obligations surrounding it (hear no evil, see no evil,
and therefore speak no evil), what if Jon said "Hi Andy, fellow member, here
is the scoop on whats going on with JSR-1234" or moreover what if he didn't?
Maybe I'm tainted by merely speaking (electronically) with Jon due to his
indemic taint of JCPness. So then I go back to work at M$ and start hacking
on I dunno ASP or something. Sun gets wind of it and says "HEY ASP is
stealing our stuff (though we stole it from them)"
Or since the JCP seeks to create a spec for everything, what if I work for
some other company which say puts out anything to do with "Micro" devices
(pdas, etc) or portals. Am I a potential object of litigation just through
my association with Apache and Apache's association with the JCP?
I'd sure feel a lot less fear, uncertainty and doubt if all my fellow apache
members weren't under NDAs carrying around tainted knowledge which is
proprietary of Sun. It seems an open process would sure make the JCP a
whole lot more appealing.
But then.... I'm weird like that.
-Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@generationjava.com>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: nice
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> > We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE
> > executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have many
> > members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs.
>
> Yeah I know. Thus my questions as to whether Apache/you should/could be
> saying anything against the negative views of the JCP.
>
> > FYI - Through the significant efforts of Jason Hunter, the previous JCP
> > rep, and others (Chuck Murko, for example), the ASF was instrumental in
> > fostering change in the JCP process, and will continue to do so.
>
> This is about all I do hear regarding ASF/JCP.
>
> > There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure
> > agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound
> > by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP
> > discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up.
>
> Just the FAQs. Like, does Apache have a non-profit membership? So that
> anyone who is an ASF member is able to be on multiple JSRs, or are you all
> members via your companies?
>
> As a member through Apache, does that cause any legal contractual issues
> with employers?
>
> Hen
>
>
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Re: nice
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
(...)
> What else would you like to know? What are your specific problems? is
> there a specific technology/spec that you are interested in
> participating in? have you ever interacted with the expert group of a
> JSR via their interest list or during a public, community review? I
> started my participation by just sending comments to the servlet EG, and
> I found them extremely responsive, far more responsive that I would have
> expected for a random comment from the ether. Of course, this differs
> from EG to EG, just like different communities differ on OSS projects.
>
How did you get a base for your comments? I imagine you were commenting
on, let's say, Servlet2.2 when they were working on Servlet2.3, or
something similar, maybe a public draft.
But when a group gets formed in Jan-2002
(http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=168), and there is no single line
of output from it till
(http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?PlutoProposal), Jan 2003,
I don't see a way to send a meaningful comment.Comment on what?
When a Draft is published, I expect a response like "It's too late to
make major changes now, we'll consider for release 2" to any serious
comment.
You can see what I meant with my previous post about closeness of the
process.
(...)
>
> geir
>
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Re: nice
Posted by ac...@apache.org.
And they would not be able to collaborate with their fellow members who are
not in the expert group due to NDAs.
-Andy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@generationjava.com>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: nice
>
> So the solution for committers who would like to be involved in the JCP is
> to hand around their announce list and website, when a particular new JSR
> is announced they can go volunteer. If successful, then they would do the
> agreement thing and be an ASF representative?
>
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>
> > on 2003/1/29 7:16 AM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >
> > > The ASF is a member. Any ASF member is covered by that agreement, and
> > > can thus, if they choose, represent the ASF on the EG if the EG
> > > accepts. IIRC, non-members can also represent the ASF on an expert
> > > group, but it does require JCP agreements to be signed.
> >
> > Correct.
> >
> > -jon
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: nice
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2003/1/29 10:26 AM, "Henri Yandell" <ba...@generationjava.com> wrote:
> So the solution for committers who would like to be involved in the JCP is
> to hand around their announce list and website, when a particular new JSR
> is announced they can go volunteer. If successful, then they would do the
> agreement thing and be an ASF representative?
>
> Hen
Correct.
-jon
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Re: nice
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
So the solution for committers who would like to be involved in the JCP is
to hand around their announce list and website, when a particular new JSR
is announced they can go volunteer. If successful, then they would do the
agreement thing and be an ASF representative?
Hen
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 2003/1/29 7:16 AM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > The ASF is a member. Any ASF member is covered by that agreement, and
> > can thus, if they choose, represent the ASF on the EG if the EG
> > accepts. IIRC, non-members can also represent the ASF on an expert
> > group, but it does require JCP agreements to be signed.
>
> Correct.
>
> -jon
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: nice
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2003/1/29 7:16 AM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net> wrote:
> The ASF is a member. Any ASF member is covered by that agreement, and
> can thus, if they choose, represent the ASF on the EG if the EG
> accepts. IIRC, non-members can also represent the ASF on an expert
> group, but it does require JCP agreements to be signed.
Correct.
-jon
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Re: nice
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 09:38 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>> We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE
>> executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have
>> many
>> members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs.
>
> Yeah I know. Thus my questions as to whether Apache/you should/could be
> saying anything against the negative views of the JCP.
Of course we/I can/will. It's no secret that Apache had significant
problems with the managing process of the JCP, and much effort was
invested to improve it. If you remember, Jason Hunter was on stage at
last year's JavaOne's announcement of the changes.
While there are still plenty of valid issues that people have with the
JCP as a whole, or JSRs in specific, the intent of the ASF's
participation is to be a constructive advocate of the way we think that
standards and software should be developed. We are just one vote of
many - we can say our piece, lobby and try to convince others, support
our representatives on JSRs, but at the end of the day, we are just one
voice.
>
>> FYI - Through the significant efforts of Jason Hunter, the previous
>> JCP
>> rep, and others (Chuck Murko, for example), the ASF was instrumental
>> in
>> fostering change in the JCP process, and will continue to do so.
>
> This is about all I do hear regarding ASF/JCP.
What else would you like to know? What are your specific problems? is
there a specific technology/spec that you are interested in
participating in? have you ever interacted with the expert group of a
JSR via their interest list or during a public, community review? I
started my participation by just sending comments to the servlet EG,
and I found them extremely responsive, far more responsive that I would
have expected for a random comment from the ether. Of course, this
differs from EG to EG, just like different communities differ on OSS
projects.
>
>> There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure
>> agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound
>> by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open
>> JCP
>> discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up.
>
> Just the FAQs. Like, does Apache have a non-profit membership? So that
> anyone who is an ASF member is able to be on multiple JSRs, or are you
> all
> members via your companies?
The ASF is a member. Any ASF member is covered by that agreement, and
can thus, if they choose, represent the ASF on the EG if the EG
accepts. IIRC, non-members can also represent the ASF on an expert
group, but it does require JCP agreements to be signed.
Remember, it's up to the expert group to accept members for
participation. You are free to represent your company, if you choose.
>
> As a member through Apache, does that cause any legal contractual
> issues
> with employers?
That depends upon your employment agreement/contract with your employer.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w)
Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m)
geirm@adeptra.com
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Re: nice
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE
> executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have many
> members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs.
Yeah I know. Thus my questions as to whether Apache/you should/could be
saying anything against the negative views of the JCP.
> FYI - Through the significant efforts of Jason Hunter, the previous JCP
> rep, and others (Chuck Murko, for example), the ASF was instrumental in
> fostering change in the JCP process, and will continue to do so.
This is about all I do hear regarding ASF/JCP.
> There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure
> agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound
> by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP
> discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up.
Just the FAQs. Like, does Apache have a non-profit membership? So that
anyone who is an ASF member is able to be on multiple JSRs, or are you all
members via your companies?
As a member through Apache, does that cause any legal contractual issues
with employers?
Hen
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Re: nice
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 08:32 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> It's only by understanding the JCP and infiltrating it that we have
> much
> chance to try and change it though. The whole thing is just one opaque
> block from here.
We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE
executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have many
members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs.
FYI - Through the significant efforts of Jason Hunter, the previous JCP
rep, and others (Chuck Murko, for example), the ASF was instrumental in
fostering change in the JCP process, and will continue to do so.
There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure
agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound
by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP
discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w)
Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m)
geirm@adeptra.com
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Re: nice
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
It's only by understanding the JCP and infiltrating it that we have much
chance to try and change it though. The whole thing is just one opaque
block from here.
Hen
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> > Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It
> > is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up
> > that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should.
> >
> > -jon
> >
>
> +1 Well said Jon.
>
>
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Re: nice
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It
> is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up
> that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should.
>
> -jon
>
+1 Well said Jon.
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Re: nice
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2003/1/28 9:50 PM, "Robert Simmons" <de...@arcor.de> wrote:
> Welcome to real life business. In the real world, not everything goes your
> way. You get to choose between a mass of "political bullshit" and having no
> choice at all. I opt for choice even if the choice is flawed. You can put
> your future in the hands of Microsoft if you want. Problem is that you are
> trusting them in a way they shouldn't be trusted. You gain the lack of
> "political bullshit" but loose the future.As long as Sun continues to respect
> the voting of the JCP, I will continue to support the JCP.
Fact of the matter is that they don't unless you bitch loudly enough that
they are disrespecting the purpose of the JCP. But then again, you probably
don't see all the discussion that goes on the Servlet API and the other JSR
that I'm on.
If it wasn't for people like myself, Pier, Jason Hunter other ASF members
(and other OSS people), the JCP would be producing specifications that we
would never be able to implement here.
What good is that? How is that any different than what M$ does?
Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It
is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up
that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should.
-jon
--
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Re: nice
Posted by Robert Simmons <de...@arcor.de>.
Welcome to real life business. In the real world, not everything goes your
way. You get to choose between a mass of "political bullshit" and having no
choice at all. I opt for choice even if the choice is flawed. You can put
your future in the hands of Microsoft if you want. Problem is that you are
trusting them in a way they shouldn't be trusted. You gain the lack of
"political bullshit" but loose the future.As long as Sun continues to respect
the voting of the JCP, I will continue to support the JCP.
-- Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Scott Stevens" <jo...@latchkey.com>
To: <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: nice
> Don't bother questioning or wondering about the JCP. Fact of the matter is
> that it is just one big fucked mess full of all the political bullshit you
> could ever imagine. It isn't worth your time.
>
> -jon
>
>
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Re: nice
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
Don't bother questioning or wondering about the JCP. Fact of the matter is
that it is just one big fucked mess full of all the political bullshit you
could ever imagine. It isn't worth your time.
-jon
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RE: nice
Posted by Tom Copeland <to...@infoether.com>.
> <snip>
> Tell that to the Ruby developer working on the next big thing.
Hey, I resemble that remark! :-)
Tom
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Re: nice
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
To continue having fun replying to myself:
This mail list seems to be akin to a JCP-announce list. It seems to be
Harold Ogle sending out announcements that new documents are available at
the JCP. Useful, but not really what I was asking Robert to show existence
of.
Hen
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> [Electricity outages tonight mean my DNS is down. But looking at the JCP
> in a text browser the mail archives are at:
>
> http://archives.java.sun.com/archives/jcp-interest.html
>
> Time for more spam :)
>
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
> >
> > > > But who speaks for JCP?
> > >
> > > Those who chose to be involved.
> >
> > I'm not sure I'm conveying the question properly. As an Apache committer,
> > I am unable to speak on behalf of the ASF. Equally, as a JCP member I
> > would not be able to speak on behalf of JCP.
> >
> > > > While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that
> > > > the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its
> > > > business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry.
> > >
> > > High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee.
> > > You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare
> > > minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon.
> > >
> > > Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership
> > > commercial entities: $5000
> > > educational/non-profit organizations: $2000
> > > individuals: $0
> > > existing licensees: $0
> > >
> > > If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger
> > > problems to deal with.
> >
> > I wouldn't be surprised if 5000 is more than most places spend on tools
> > for an individual in a year. For a place with a lot of developers, the
> > money probably quickly vanishes, but small shops are unlikely to spend
> > such money.
> >
> > > > An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums
> > > > [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to
> > > > do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the
> > > > registration].
> > >
> > > That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you
> > > giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to
> > > submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if
> > > some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for
> > > example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you
> > > give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue
> > > are the errant employees.
> >
> > I was reading the registration smallprint the other day. If I have an
> > individual membership, it states that I am not allowed to release
> > information to my company gained from my membership. So, if I work on JSP
> > at work, and were to join the JSF JSR, it would seem tricky to work on JSF
> > at work.
> >
> > I've also not seen much at the JCP that details what happens to my
> > individual membership once I finish on a JSR. Is that it? Or am I allowed
> > one JSR at a time?
> >
> > > > Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track
> > > > through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs.
> > >
> > > Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose
> > > the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time.
> >
> > Where are the results of these votes? The site shows the major members of
> > the JCP voting initially, and then shows the panel of experts voting. I
> > see no JCP-wide voting.
> >
> > > > Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark
> > > > picture it is often portrayed as?
> > >
> > > Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it
> > > isnt common enough to qualify as "often".
> >
> > I can't say I've ever seen an article or blog that speaks lovingly of the
> > JCP, whereas I've seen quite a few that portray it negatively.
> >
> > > > Or is it a loose federation. In which
> > > > case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the
> > > > JCP
> > >
> > > Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United
> > > Nations. Dissenters are abounds.
> >
> > And yet to use your anology, the ASF are on the Security Council, so would
> > seem a major speaker for the JCP process. Indeed, due to the publicity
> > over the ASF's stance to open up the JCP process, they would seem a
> > natural speaker.
> >
> > > > and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge
> > > > corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money
> > > > and not a better future for Java.
> > >
> > > *Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is
> > > rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company can "stop the huge
> > > coporates" than you need a reality check.
> >
> > I'm happy to accept a cynical: They can't be :)
> >
> > > The thing that stops them is
> > > popular opinion. If they try to do somethign lame, he JCP smacks them in the
> > > teeth for it. Life is grand. The JCP does have its issues but they are of a
> > > different nature than you percieve.
> >
> > Popular opinion of the JCP members? How many members are individual
> > developers? Are developers working for corporate members able to discuss
> > at the JCP, or are they held back by having to go through a single legal
> > official for that company?
> >
> > > The drive to open source the JDK is being
> > > driven not by an attempt to stop the corporations but by a growing belief
> > > that Sun doesnt have the resources needed to handle all of the changes in
> > > java.
> >
> > Where are the mail archives to back this up? Where do the members of the
> > JCP discuss the state of the Java world?
> >
> > > > To those of us who have not seen the insides of the JCP, it looks like a
> > > > large, probably political and argumentative body of powerful entities.
> > >
> > > So join it. Whats stopping you?
> >
> > Lack of money, lack of a JSR to join, and lack of awareness that there was
> > any cross-JCP community in existence to join.
> >
> > > > While it may be a good thing compared to Microsoft's dictatorship, it's
> > > > almost definitely less efficient, and not the open system it should be.
> > >
> > > Microsoft does what it wants and when it wants. (notice the period) When .NET
> > > is 2 years old and starts to show the defects and missing features we have
> > > seen in the JDK, microsoft will fix it when they get good and damn well ready
> > > to. Further, if you think they arent doing .NET to dive their sales of
> > > windows than we will have to upgrade you from naive to stupid.
> >
> > They're reacting to the fact that their languages were looking pathetic
> > compared to Java. In 2 years .Net will start to get lumbered down with
> > hacks and additions and in 5 years it'll be as bad as the current Windows
> > stuff is now. Thankfully the current clean MS system seems to be worrying
> > enough that Java is making more aggressive language changes.
> >
> > > Microsoft has
> > > shown *REPEATEDLY* to be an unethical company that believes it is above the
> > > law.
> >
> > I'm an Apple/Linux user. I'm currently using Windows at work in an effort
> > to make sure I continue true to the nature of being able to develop on any
> > platform. Being a pawn in Jobs' surprise plans is not much more fun than
> > in Gates' empire building.
> >
> > > You have a choice. Go to .NET and leave your business, economic and personal
> > > future to your trust in Microsoft.
> >
> > Reality is, that while an MS job is not very exciting for the next 5
> > years, it's probably quite safe. Tell that to the Ruby developer working
> > on the next big thing.
> >
> > > Alternatively you could stick with an
> > > admitedly flawed but still functional and respected process in java. Pick
> > > number 1 and you risk proving Orwell correct. No thanks.
> >
> > Or I could raise a voice in the hope of seeing a better choice. It still
> > dissapoints me that Perl users gets the Apocalypse and the Exogesis for
> > Perl 6, while us Java users get a bit of legality at the JCP and a few
> > years of rumours.
> >
> > Hen
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: nice
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
[Electricity outages tonight mean my DNS is down. But looking at the JCP
in a text browser the mail archives are at:
http://archives.java.sun.com/archives/jcp-interest.html
Time for more spam :)
Hen
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
> > > But who speaks for JCP?
> >
> > Those who chose to be involved.
>
> I'm not sure I'm conveying the question properly. As an Apache committer,
> I am unable to speak on behalf of the ASF. Equally, as a JCP member I
> would not be able to speak on behalf of JCP.
>
> > > While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that
> > > the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its
> > > business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry.
> >
> > High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee.
> > You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare
> > minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon.
> >
> > Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership
> > commercial entities: $5000
> > educational/non-profit organizations: $2000
> > individuals: $0
> > existing licensees: $0
> >
> > If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger
> > problems to deal with.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if 5000 is more than most places spend on tools
> for an individual in a year. For a place with a lot of developers, the
> money probably quickly vanishes, but small shops are unlikely to spend
> such money.
>
> > > An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums
> > > [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to
> > > do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the
> > > registration].
> >
> > That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you
> > giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to
> > submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if
> > some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for
> > example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you
> > give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue
> > are the errant employees.
>
> I was reading the registration smallprint the other day. If I have an
> individual membership, it states that I am not allowed to release
> information to my company gained from my membership. So, if I work on JSP
> at work, and were to join the JSF JSR, it would seem tricky to work on JSF
> at work.
>
> I've also not seen much at the JCP that details what happens to my
> individual membership once I finish on a JSR. Is that it? Or am I allowed
> one JSR at a time?
>
> > > Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track
> > > through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs.
> >
> > Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose
> > the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time.
>
> Where are the results of these votes? The site shows the major members of
> the JCP voting initially, and then shows the panel of experts voting. I
> see no JCP-wide voting.
>
> > > Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark
> > > picture it is often portrayed as?
> >
> > Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it
> > isnt common enough to qualify as "often".
>
> I can't say I've ever seen an article or blog that speaks lovingly of the
> JCP, whereas I've seen quite a few that portray it negatively.
>
> > > Or is it a loose federation. In which
> > > case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the
> > > JCP
> >
> > Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United
> > Nations. Dissenters are abounds.
>
> And yet to use your anology, the ASF are on the Security Council, so would
> seem a major speaker for the JCP process. Indeed, due to the publicity
> over the ASF's stance to open up the JCP process, they would seem a
> natural speaker.
>
> > > and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge
> > > corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money
> > > and not a better future for Java.
> >
> > *Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is
> > rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company can "stop the huge
> > coporates" than you need a reality check.
>
> I'm happy to accept a cynical: They can't be :)
>
> > The thing that stops them is
> > popular opinion. If they try to do somethign lame, he JCP smacks them in the
> > teeth for it. Life is grand. The JCP does have its issues but they are of a
> > different nature than you percieve.
>
> Popular opinion of the JCP members? How many members are individual
> developers? Are developers working for corporate members able to discuss
> at the JCP, or are they held back by having to go through a single legal
> official for that company?
>
> > The drive to open source the JDK is being
> > driven not by an attempt to stop the corporations but by a growing belief
> > that Sun doesnt have the resources needed to handle all of the changes in
> > java.
>
> Where are the mail archives to back this up? Where do the members of the
> JCP discuss the state of the Java world?
>
> > > To those of us who have not seen the insides of the JCP, it looks like a
> > > large, probably political and argumentative body of powerful entities.
> >
> > So join it. Whats stopping you?
>
> Lack of money, lack of a JSR to join, and lack of awareness that there was
> any cross-JCP community in existence to join.
>
> > > While it may be a good thing compared to Microsoft's dictatorship, it's
> > > almost definitely less efficient, and not the open system it should be.
> >
> > Microsoft does what it wants and when it wants. (notice the period) When .NET
> > is 2 years old and starts to show the defects and missing features we have
> > seen in the JDK, microsoft will fix it when they get good and damn well ready
> > to. Further, if you think they arent doing .NET to dive their sales of
> > windows than we will have to upgrade you from naive to stupid.
>
> They're reacting to the fact that their languages were looking pathetic
> compared to Java. In 2 years .Net will start to get lumbered down with
> hacks and additions and in 5 years it'll be as bad as the current Windows
> stuff is now. Thankfully the current clean MS system seems to be worrying
> enough that Java is making more aggressive language changes.
>
> > Microsoft has
> > shown *REPEATEDLY* to be an unethical company that believes it is above the
> > law.
>
> I'm an Apple/Linux user. I'm currently using Windows at work in an effort
> to make sure I continue true to the nature of being able to develop on any
> platform. Being a pawn in Jobs' surprise plans is not much more fun than
> in Gates' empire building.
>
> > You have a choice. Go to .NET and leave your business, economic and personal
> > future to your trust in Microsoft.
>
> Reality is, that while an MS job is not very exciting for the next 5
> years, it's probably quite safe. Tell that to the Ruby developer working
> on the next big thing.
>
> > Alternatively you could stick with an
> > admitedly flawed but still functional and respected process in java. Pick
> > number 1 and you risk proving Orwell correct. No thanks.
>
> Or I could raise a voice in the hope of seeing a better choice. It still
> dissapoints me that Perl users gets the Apocalypse and the Exogesis for
> Perl 6, while us Java users get a bit of legality at the JCP and a few
> years of rumours.
>
> Hen
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
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Re: nice
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
> > But who speaks for JCP?
>
> Those who chose to be involved.
I'm not sure I'm conveying the question properly. As an Apache committer,
I am unable to speak on behalf of the ASF. Equally, as a JCP member I
would not be able to speak on behalf of JCP.
> > While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that
> > the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its
> > business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry.
>
> High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee.
> You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare
> minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon.
>
> Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership
> commercial entities: $5000
> educational/non-profit organizations: $2000
> individuals: $0
> existing licensees: $0
>
> If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger
> problems to deal with.
I wouldn't be surprised if 5000 is more than most places spend on tools
for an individual in a year. For a place with a lot of developers, the
money probably quickly vanishes, but small shops are unlikely to spend
such money.
> > An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums
> > [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to
> > do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the
> > registration].
>
> That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you
> giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to
> submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if
> some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for
> example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you
> give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue
> are the errant employees.
I was reading the registration smallprint the other day. If I have an
individual membership, it states that I am not allowed to release
information to my company gained from my membership. So, if I work on JSP
at work, and were to join the JSF JSR, it would seem tricky to work on JSF
at work.
I've also not seen much at the JCP that details what happens to my
individual membership once I finish on a JSR. Is that it? Or am I allowed
one JSR at a time?
> > Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track
> > through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs.
>
> Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose
> the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time.
Where are the results of these votes? The site shows the major members of
the JCP voting initially, and then shows the panel of experts voting. I
see no JCP-wide voting.
> > Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark
> > picture it is often portrayed as?
>
> Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it
> isnt common enough to qualify as "often".
I can't say I've ever seen an article or blog that speaks lovingly of the
JCP, whereas I've seen quite a few that portray it negatively.
> > Or is it a loose federation. In which
> > case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the
> > JCP
>
> Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United
> Nations. Dissenters are abounds.
And yet to use your anology, the ASF are on the Security Council, so would
seem a major speaker for the JCP process. Indeed, due to the publicity
over the ASF's stance to open up the JCP process, they would seem a
natural speaker.
> > and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge
> > corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money
> > and not a better future for Java.
>
> *Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is
> rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company can "stop the huge
> coporates" than you need a reality check.
I'm happy to accept a cynical: They can't be :)
> The thing that stops them is
> popular opinion. If they try to do somethign lame, he JCP smacks them in the
> teeth for it. Life is grand. The JCP does have its issues but they are of a
> different nature than you percieve.
Popular opinion of the JCP members? How many members are individual
developers? Are developers working for corporate members able to discuss
at the JCP, or are they held back by having to go through a single legal
official for that company?
> The drive to open source the JDK is being
> driven not by an attempt to stop the corporations but by a growing belief
> that Sun doesnt have the resources needed to handle all of the changes in
> java.
Where are the mail archives to back this up? Where do the members of the
JCP discuss the state of the Java world?
> > To those of us who have not seen the insides of the JCP, it looks like a
> > large, probably political and argumentative body of powerful entities.
>
> So join it. Whats stopping you?
Lack of money, lack of a JSR to join, and lack of awareness that there was
any cross-JCP community in existence to join.
> > While it may be a good thing compared to Microsoft's dictatorship, it's
> > almost definitely less efficient, and not the open system it should be.
>
> Microsoft does what it wants and when it wants. (notice the period) When .NET
> is 2 years old and starts to show the defects and missing features we have
> seen in the JDK, microsoft will fix it when they get good and damn well ready
> to. Further, if you think they arent doing .NET to dive their sales of
> windows than we will have to upgrade you from naive to stupid.
They're reacting to the fact that their languages were looking pathetic
compared to Java. In 2 years .Net will start to get lumbered down with
hacks and additions and in 5 years it'll be as bad as the current Windows
stuff is now. Thankfully the current clean MS system seems to be worrying
enough that Java is making more aggressive language changes.
> Microsoft has
> shown *REPEATEDLY* to be an unethical company that believes it is above the
> law.
I'm an Apple/Linux user. I'm currently using Windows at work in an effort
to make sure I continue true to the nature of being able to develop on any
platform. Being a pawn in Jobs' surprise plans is not much more fun than
in Gates' empire building.
> You have a choice. Go to .NET and leave your business, economic and personal
> future to your trust in Microsoft.
Reality is, that while an MS job is not very exciting for the next 5
years, it's probably quite safe. Tell that to the Ruby developer working
on the next big thing.
> Alternatively you could stick with an
> admitedly flawed but still functional and respected process in java. Pick
> number 1 and you risk proving Orwell correct. No thanks.
Or I could raise a voice in the hope of seeing a better choice. It still
dissapoints me that Perl users gets the Apocalypse and the Exogesis for
Perl 6, while us Java users get a bit of legality at the JCP and a few
years of rumours.
Hen
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Re: nice
Posted by Robert Simmons <de...@arcor.de>.
>
> But who speaks for JCP?
Those who chose to be involved.
> While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that
> the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its
> business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry.
High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee.
You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare
minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon.
Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership
commercial entities: $5000
educational/non-profit organizations: $2000
individuals: $0
existing licensees: $0
If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger
problems to deal with.
> An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums
> [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to
> do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the
> registration].
That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you
giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to
submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if
some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for
example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you
give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue
are the errant employees.
> Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track
> through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs.
Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose
the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time.
> Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark
> picture it is often portrayed as?
Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it
isnt common enough to qualify as "often".
> Or is it a loose federation. In which
> case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the
> JCP
Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United
Nations. Dissenters are abounds.
> and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge
> corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money
> and not a better future for Java.
*Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is
rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company can "stop the huge
coporates" than you need a reality check. The thing that stops them is
popular opinion. If they try to do somethign lame, he JCP smacks them in the
teeth for it. Life is grand. The JCP does have its issues but they are of a
different nature than you percieve. The drive to open source the JDK is being
driven not by an attempt to stop the corporations but by a growing belief
that Sun doesnt have the resources needed to handle all of the changes in
java.
> To those of us who have not seen the insides of the JCP, it looks like a
> large, probably political and argumentative body of powerful entities.
So join it. Whats stopping you?
> While it may be a good thing compared to Microsoft's dictatorship, it's
> almost definitely less efficient, and not the open system it should be.
Yes, and Saddam Hussein has a more efficient government than the USA. When he
wants somethign done it gets done. Great isnt it ? No putting up with
squabbling representatives or bickering debates. No one able to criticise
your work and beat it to a pulp. Lets all move to Iraq.
Microsoft does what it wants and when it wants. (notice the period) When .NET
is 2 years old and starts to show the defects and missing features we have
seen in the JDK, microsoft will fix it when they get good and damn well ready
to. Further, if you think they arent doing .NET to dive their sales of
windows than we will have to upgrade you from naive to stupid. Microsoft has
shown *REPEATEDLY* to be an unethical company that believes it is above the
law. There was a rumor going around recently when the government suddenly put
kid gloves on after the verdict against microsoft. The rumor was somethign to
the effect that microsoft had a behind the doors word with DOD and the
pentagon and the rest of the government threatening to revoke all of their
windows licenses if they tried to break up the company. Now I dont know if
that is true, but I wouldnt put it past them.
You have a choice. Go to .NET and leave your business, economic and personal
future to your trust in Microsoft. Alternatively you could stick with an
admitedly flawed but still functional and respected process in java. Pick
number 1 and you risk proving Orwell correct. No thanks.
>
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
>
> > JCP is the Java community process. A federation of hundreds of companies
that
> > produces standards (such as EJB) for the Java community. Anyone can be a
> > member and your vote counts. JCP is what Java has that .NET never will
and
> > that is why .NET will win.
> >
> > -- Robert
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@generationjava.com>
> > To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM
> > Subject: Re: nice
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Interesting points.
> > >
> > > Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so,
is
> > > it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction
with
> > > the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such
exists]
> > > role?
> > >
> > > [Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP].
> > >
> > > Hen
> > >
> > > On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> >
http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mys
> > tery
> > > >
> > > > -Andy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: nice
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
But who speaks for JCP?
While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that
the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its
business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry.
An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums
[for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to
do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the
registration].
Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track
through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs.
Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark
picture it is often portrayed as? Or is it a loose federation. In which
case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the
JCP and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge
corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money
and not a better future for Java.
To those of us who have not seen the insides of the JCP, it looks like a
large, probably political and argumentative body of powerful entities.
While it may be a good thing compared to Microsoft's dictatorship, it's
almost definitely less efficient, and not the open system it should be.
Hen
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
> JCP is the Java community process. A federation of hundreds of companies that
> produces standards (such as EJB) for the Java community. Anyone can be a
> member and your vote counts. JCP is what Java has that .NET never will and
> that is why .NET will win.
>
> -- Robert
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@generationjava.com>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM
> Subject: Re: nice
>
>
> >
> > Interesting points.
> >
> > Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is
> > it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with
> > the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists]
> > role?
> >
> > [Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP].
> >
> > Hen
> >
> > On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> > >
> http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mys
> tery
> > >
> > > -Andy
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: nice
Posted by Robert Simmons <de...@arcor.de>.
JCP is the Java community process. A federation of hundreds of companies that
produces standards (such as EJB) for the Java community. Anyone can be a
member and your vote counts. JCP is what Java has that .NET never will and
that is why .NET will win.
-- Robert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@generationjava.com>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: nice
>
> Interesting points.
>
> Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is
> it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with
> the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists]
> role?
>
> [Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP].
>
> Hen
>
> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> >
http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mys
tery
> >
> > -Andy
> >
> >
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Re: nice
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
Interesting points.
Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is
it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with
the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists]
role?
[Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP].
Hen
On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mystery
>
> -Andy
>
>
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