Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?

[Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>]

On 12/20/05, Jean T. Anderson <jt...@apache.org> wrote:
> I think potentially *anything* could feed a troll, so then the goal is
> how to minimize troll effects on the community. I really like Mark's
> Gandhi approach for setting FUD straight, and I think the humor of your
> approach definitely merits a place in the anti-troll arsenal.
>
>   -jean

Gandhi said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world,"
which, I think, is excellent advice for anyone working in open source,
especially when dealing with trolls.

Once I determine a poster is a troll, I never, ever feed the troll.
Usually, I filter the posts directly to the trash. Back in the BBS
days, we called this a "twit list".

If I do see a flame, I go back to the original poster and respond in a
helpful way, but without quoting the flame. I do what should have been
done in the first place: I "be the change".

If there's misinformation in a flame that needs to be corrected, I
look for another way to reply without quoting the misinformation.
Sometimes that can be done by responding to someone else in the
thread. Other times, I will start a new thread to state the correct
information but without quoting the misinformation. Again: Be the
change, and don't feed the trolls.

I avoid answering questions about a project off list. If someone can't
or won't post to the list, and it's a question I want to answer, I'll
post the question and answer to the list myself, but not to one person
alone.

If someone sends me a question that they should ask on the list, I
always reply: "The best place to post a question like this is the User
list, where there are more people to help an the answers are archived.
[Link to the mailing list page.]"

If someone asks me about a troll, I suggest that they do what I do:
Filter the twit to the trash. If that someone then posts to the list,
I make sure they recieve a helpful response.

When a new committer joins one of my projects, and we've had trouble
with trolls, I send them this note:

----

>From time to time, all public mailing lists have trouble with trolls
-- people who delight in complaining for the sake of complaining. And,
of course Apache mailing lists are no exception.

Trolls have been discussed at length on internal lists, and in the
end, we are left with the Apache maxim:

* Don't feed the trolls.

We do try listening and we do try reasoning, and when that doesn't
work we are left with shunning.

It doesn't always make the trolls go away, but it does tend to quiet
them. Replying only makes it worse, not only because trolls don't
listen or reason (they only complain), but because it steals time from
productive work. Time we waste replying to trolls can't be spent
applying patches or replying to earnest users.

Of course, we are all volunteers here, and we are free to act
according to our own lights, but it my experience, starving trolls
does work -- at least as well as anything else does.

----

In one case, a troll from one project started to post to another. I
was able to warn the other PMC right away. None of the commtters fell
for the troll-bait, and the troll went away.

Happy New Year!

-Ted.

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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?

[robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>]

On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 19:08 -0500, Ted Husted wrote:
> On 1/5/06, robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > i'm not sure that i'll find the time for an article but - if there
> > unfortunately isn't anyone out there with a literary itch to scratch - i
> > will create a basic document over in apache dev so that people can build
> > it up. there's a bit of a tradition of using cool emails in
> > documentation so ted: any objection to your email being used in such a
> > page?
> 
> Not in the least: Feel free to fold spindle and mutilate.

grand :)

i've created an outline page that needs some revision here:
http://www.apache.org/dev/project-mailing-lists.html. i hope to be able
to get back and make improvements (could be a few days, though) but at
least it's a start. please feel free to dive in (i'm not particularly
satisfied so there's no need to worry about my feelings ;)

commmitters should be able to check out infrastructure site from
subversion and create patches for it but site karma is required to
commit changes. so, those without karma will need to add patches to the
infrastructure project in JIRA. 

- robert 

Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?

[Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>]

On 1/5/06, robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:
> i'm not sure that i'll find the time for an article but - if there
> unfortunately isn't anyone out there with a literary itch to scratch - i
> will create a basic document over in apache dev so that people can build
> it up. there's a bit of a tradition of using cool emails in
> documentation so ted: any objection to your email being used in such a
> page?

Not in the least: Feel free to fold spindle and mutilate.

-Ted.

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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?

[robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>]

On Tue, 2006-01-03 at 16:05 -0800, Will Glass-Husain wrote:
> I've been enjoying reading this discussion.  I think many of us have
> struggled with similar issues in the mailing lists.
> 
> If someone was interesting in writing an essay that summarized and quoted
> some of the key insights from this thread it would be an interesting article
> for the web site or Wiki.

anyone like to step up?

i'm not sure that i'll find the time for an article but - if there
unfortunately isn't anyone out there with a literary itch to scratch - i
will create a basic document over in apache dev so that people can build
it up. there's a bit of a tradition of using cool emails in
documentation so ted: any objection to your email being used in such a
page?

- robert

Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?

[Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>]

On 1/3/06, Will Glass-Husain <wg...@apache.org> wrote:
> I've been enjoying reading this discussion.  I think many of us have
> struggled with similar issues in the mailing lists.
>
> If someone was interesting in writing an essay that summarized and quoted
> some of the key insights from this thread it would be an interesting article
> for the web site or Wiki.

Towards a summary, here are some background links:

* Gentle - http://www.askdavetaylor.com/whats_a_troll_and_a_zombie.html
* Naughty - http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html
* Definitive - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_trolls

-Ted.

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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?

[Will Glass-Husain <wg...@apache.org>]

I've been enjoying reading this discussion.  I think many of us have
struggled with similar issues in the mailing lists.

If someone was interesting in writing an essay that summarized and quoted
some of the key insights from this thread it would be an interesting article
for the web site or Wiki.

Best, WILL

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Davanum Srinivas" <da...@gmail.com>
To: <co...@apache.org>; <hu...@apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 6:17 AM
Subject: Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?


+10000 We need to document this :)

thanks
-- dims

On 1/1/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/20/05, Jean T. Anderson <jt...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I think potentially *anything* could feed a troll, so then the goal is
> > how to minimize troll effects on the community. I really like Mark's
> > Gandhi approach for setting FUD straight, and I think the humor of your
> > approach definitely merits a place in the anti-troll arsenal.
> >
> >   -jean
>
> Gandhi said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world,"
> which, I think, is excellent advice for anyone working in open source,
> especially when dealing with trolls.
>
> Once I determine a poster is a troll, I never, ever feed the troll.
> Usually, I filter the posts directly to the trash. Back in the BBS
> days, we called this a "twit list".
>
> If I do see a flame, I go back to the original poster and respond in a
> helpful way, but without quoting the flame. I do what should have been
> done in the first place: I "be the change".
>
> If there's misinformation in a flame that needs to be corrected, I
> look for another way to reply without quoting the misinformation.
> Sometimes that can be done by responding to someone else in the
> thread. Other times, I will start a new thread to state the correct
> information but without quoting the misinformation. Again: Be the
> change, and don't feed the trolls.
>
> I avoid answering questions about a project off list. If someone can't
> or won't post to the list, and it's a question I want to answer, I'll
> post the question and answer to the list myself, but not to one person
> alone.
>
> If someone sends me a question that they should ask on the list, I
> always reply: "The best place to post a question like this is the User
> list, where there are more people to help an the answers are archived.
> [Link to the mailing list page.]"
>
> If someone asks me about a troll, I suggest that they do what I do:
> Filter the twit to the trash. If that someone then posts to the list,
> I make sure they recieve a helpful response.
>
> When a new committer joins one of my projects, and we've had trouble
> with trolls, I send them this note:
>
> ----
>
> From time to time, all public mailing lists have trouble with trolls
> -- people who delight in complaining for the sake of complaining. And,
> of course Apache mailing lists are no exception.
>
> Trolls have been discussed at length on internal lists, and in the
> end, we are left with the Apache maxim:
>
> * Don't feed the trolls.
>
> We do try listening and we do try reasoning, and when that doesn't
> work we are left with shunning.
>
> It doesn't always make the trolls go away, but it does tend to quiet
> them. Replying only makes it worse, not only because trolls don't
> listen or reason (they only complain), but because it steals time from
> productive work. Time we waste replying to trolls can't be spent
> applying patches or replying to earnest users.
>
> Of course, we are all volunteers here, and we are free to act
> according to our own lights, but it my experience, starving trolls
> does work -- at least as well as anything else does.
>
> ----
>
> In one case, a troll from one project started to post to another. I
> was able to warn the other PMC right away. None of the commtters fell
> for the troll-bait, and the troll went away.
>
> Happy New Year!
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>


--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/

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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?

[Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>]

+10000 We need to document this :)

thanks
-- dims

On 1/1/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/20/05, Jean T. Anderson <jt...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I think potentially *anything* could feed a troll, so then the goal is
> > how to minimize troll effects on the community. I really like Mark's
> > Gandhi approach for setting FUD straight, and I think the humor of your
> > approach definitely merits a place in the anti-troll arsenal.
> >
> >   -jean
>
> Gandhi said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world,"
> which, I think, is excellent advice for anyone working in open source,
> especially when dealing with trolls.
>
> Once I determine a poster is a troll, I never, ever feed the troll.
> Usually, I filter the posts directly to the trash. Back in the BBS
> days, we called this a "twit list".
>
> If I do see a flame, I go back to the original poster and respond in a
> helpful way, but without quoting the flame. I do what should have been
> done in the first place: I "be the change".
>
> If there's misinformation in a flame that needs to be corrected, I
> look for another way to reply without quoting the misinformation.
> Sometimes that can be done by responding to someone else in the
> thread. Other times, I will start a new thread to state the correct
> information but without quoting the misinformation. Again: Be the
> change, and don't feed the trolls.
>
> I avoid answering questions about a project off list. If someone can't
> or won't post to the list, and it's a question I want to answer, I'll
> post the question and answer to the list myself, but not to one person
> alone.
>
> If someone sends me a question that they should ask on the list, I
> always reply: "The best place to post a question like this is the User
> list, where there are more people to help an the answers are archived.
> [Link to the mailing list page.]"
>
> If someone asks me about a troll, I suggest that they do what I do:
> Filter the twit to the trash. If that someone then posts to the list,
> I make sure they recieve a helpful response.
>
> When a new committer joins one of my projects, and we've had trouble
> with trolls, I send them this note:
>
> ----
>
> From time to time, all public mailing lists have trouble with trolls
> -- people who delight in complaining for the sake of complaining. And,
> of course Apache mailing lists are no exception.
>
> Trolls have been discussed at length on internal lists, and in the
> end, we are left with the Apache maxim:
>
> * Don't feed the trolls.
>
> We do try listening and we do try reasoning, and when that doesn't
> work we are left with shunning.
>
> It doesn't always make the trolls go away, but it does tend to quiet
> them. Replying only makes it worse, not only because trolls don't
> listen or reason (they only complain), but because it steals time from
> productive work. Time we waste replying to trolls can't be spent
> applying patches or replying to earnest users.
>
> Of course, we are all volunteers here, and we are free to act
> according to our own lights, but it my experience, starving trolls
> does work -- at least as well as anything else does.
>
> ----
>
> In one case, a troll from one project started to post to another. I
> was able to warn the other PMC right away. None of the commtters fell
> for the troll-bait, and the troll went away.
>
> Happy New Year!
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>


--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/

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