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Posted to dev@airflow.apache.org by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> on 2019/12/29 17:37:16 UTC
[NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Hello everyone,
TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being (even
more) welcoming community.
It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently and you
might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety of it.
I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic and
mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like to ask
everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
*Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really welcoming
and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various ways to new
community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are responsive,
helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the survey).
We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer status" (that's
highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC members
(yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow Summits),
workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier for new
contributors to start contributing - by environment and documentation
improvements.
At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry. It's not
super easy to join the community and you must really earn your status to
become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a community in
enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without being
rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I joined the
community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this community
decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people talking at
slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very important
lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And it was
super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
understanding how this all works (which I did).
We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced automatically,
some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have expectations for
engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to follow-up
their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and engage
committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only to
finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing things they
find or even improve the processes.
I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry. When someone
new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they can be
valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way community
works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and expectations and
that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we expect
those people to follow the expectations before we invite them further after
they "earned" the status. This is best described in the "meritocracy" rule
defined here:
https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy . We are
following it really well I think.
I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly well. And
I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache Software
Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
*So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether we need to
do better currently at all.
I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do something
more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming. Maybe we can
get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too difficult?
Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some of the
rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded do not
speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and they are
afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be shouted at. I
think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks great and
when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being triggered by
people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
deteriorates.
The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with one of the
attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the after-party. We
talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to leave the
party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to raised a
few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to openly
speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are valuing
less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github)
and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new community
and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and he had
some really good examples for all those statements from his own experience.
After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him), looked at
our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees how
welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns he has in
really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I thought -
maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list, almost all
the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of course -
reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe we are
(unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or slack or
reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to our
community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a great point
that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the devlist or
slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to those
people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship for new
people so that we can guide people through the first stages of becoming
contributors and navigate the way our community works?
It looks like we already have people from all over the world - US, Europe,
India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of those
places. But maybe we could do more to get more people contributing/users
invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China yet and
not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we can do
something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where we had
Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow :) ?
There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community at the
ApacheCon Europe few months ago
https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
on
how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because of the
language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new contributors
in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors from there
(writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who has
difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be your
local mentor for that).
I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have them
immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or not. But I
wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it - both
active members of our community and those who are just listening and rarely
discuss.
Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue? Or maybe
there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better at being
more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion elsewhere
(users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the devlist
can chime in ?
I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might quickly become a
controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so let's all
be careful with words and statements.
J.
--
Jarek Potiuk
Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
[image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Karolina Rosół <ka...@polidea.com>.
Hi Jarek,
Many thanks for your reply and sorry to have kept you waiting for mine.
> I think we might have a good help from someone who would like to take on
> the tasks that developers are not really good at. I think we - developers
> are good in stuff that came be automated, but we are not that good in
> organizing things where people's emotions arere important, I think what
> would be great might be to help people to organize the work around
> development. I think there are various good practices that mu by t be
> introducedy by you and other Pms I worked with - for example retros, demos,
> planning etc. - all that might be useful in the various groups we are
> developing various functionalities we add for Airflow. There are meetings
> announced in the devlist for various areas and they are open to everyone to
> join. Maybe you could come to one of those meetings, observe it and help us
> figure out how to do I better ? I think that might a good start!I'd love if
> you come to one of our future meetings and tell us what we can improve ! I
> am sure we can learn a lot from you.
I'd love to do it! ;-)
>
> > Side story: I once took part in a mentorship program for young Project
> > Managers wannabes and after spending 3 months with a brave and bright
> > young lady I didn't think of open source community as a fresh start
> > for her to gain experience. I'm glad that now I know that it's
> > possible.
> >
> Certainly! I think we have plenty I possibilities, we are now planning to
> participate in Google Summer Of Code and in Outreachy diversity Programme -
> we can include you in it. Maybe you can help tthere ?
I'm all in, what are the next steps?
Kind regards,
Karolina Rosół
Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Project Manager
M: +48 606 630 236 <+48606630236>
E: karolina.rosol@polidea.com
[image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
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On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 9:47 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 22:21 Karolina Rosół <ka...@polidea.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > TL;DR; Non-technical people would love to build this community as
> > well. We just don't know how ;-)
> >
>
> Thanks for thone comments!
>
> 1. It is amazing that there's an info on the Apache website about the
> > devlist. However, I totally don't know how to use it except for
> > knowing how to join. For someone not familiar with it it's hard to
> > even start his/her discussion because I believe (please correct me if
> > I'm wrong) there are no rules on how to e.g. create a subject in the
> > form of a [DISCUSSION] / [AIP-XY] etc.
> >
>
> indeed. This is something that we can describe :) I will add it to our
> 'Communications' PR.
>
>
> > 2. There's no info about what is devlist / Slack better for but I've
> > seen the latest PR https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7204 about
> > it, so I won't talk too much now.
> >
>
> Yep. I think we need it.
>
> >
> > 3. I'd be happy to know what I myself, as a non-technical person, can
> > do to make this community better. We have an info about documentation
> > and the need of enhancing it on the website but if I were a student
> > and would like to know more about the nature of OSS projects and even
> > things like how to use JIRA / Github in such project, it would help.
> > Let's say someone would like to gain experience to become a Project
> > Manager in the future and build great teams based on Apache good
> > practices even though open
> > source projects have no actual structures.
> >
>
> I think we might have a good help from someone who would like to take on
> the tasks that developers are not really good at. I think we - developers
> are good in stuff that came be automated, but we are not that good in
> organizing things where people's emotions arere important, I think what
> would be great might be to help people to organize the work around
> development. I think there are various good practices that mu by t be
> introducedy by you and other Pms I worked with - for example retros, demos,
> planning etc. - all that might be useful in the various groups we are
> developing various functionalities we add for Airflow. There are meetings
> announced in the devlist for various areas and they are open to everyone to
> join. Maybe you could come to one of those meetings, observe it and help us
> figure out how to do I better ? I think that might a good start!I'd love if
> you come to one of our future meetings and tell us what we can improve ! I
> am sure we can learn a lot from you.
>
> >
> > 4. Meetups / Apache Local Community - I think it's something
> > non-technical people can do. In fact, I was happy to make the 1st
> > Warsaw Apache Airflow meetup happen and cooperate with Aizhamal,
> > Jarek, Tomek and Kamil to think of and make the best experience for
> > people who wanted to know more about Apache Airflow project in
> > general. I'm not sure if I would be honoured to take part in such an
> > experience without the people I mentioned. I simply didn't know that
> > as a Project Manager of cloud / big data project in a usual company I
> > can still have small impact on building a better and more mature
> > community. It's only because I did receive tons of mentorship,
> > constant encouragement from my colleagues. Without them I wouldn't
> > even know that it's possible to contribute as a non-programmer.
> >
>
> yeah. Mentoring is important on many levels. we should do more of it !
>
> >
> > 5. I was amazed by the results of the survey that Tomek has recently
> > made. I started to look around for more general info about welcoming
> > open source communities and what makes people join such communities. I
> > bumped into a great study made by Digital Ocean which you can find
> > under the following link:
> >
> >
> https://www.digitalocean.com/currents/december-2019/#anchor-the-community-of-open-source
> > It describes things like inclusivity, men vs. women perception of open
> > source projects / welcoming and friendly communities / rules etc. It's
> > long but worth reading :-)
> >
>
> cool - I think we will do quite so e diversity discussion during our
> upcoming Airflow Summit - we have some plans about it !
>
> >
> > Side story: I once took part in a mentorship program for young Project
> > Managers wannabes and after spending 3 months with a brave and bright
> > young lady I didn't think of open source community as a fresh start
> > for her to gain experience. I'm glad that now I know that it's
> > possible.
> >
>
> Certainly! I think we have plenty I possibilities, we are now planning to
> participate in Google Summer Of Code and in Outreachy diversity Programme -
> we can include you in it. Maybe you can help tthere ?
>
>
> Karolina Rosół
> > Polidea | Project Manager
> >
> > M: +48 606 630 236
> > E: karolina.rosol@polidea.com
> >
> > Check out our projects!
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 22:21 Karolina Rosół <ka...@polidea.com>
wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> TL;DR; Non-technical people would love to build this community as
> well. We just don't know how ;-)
>
Thanks for thone comments!
1. It is amazing that there's an info on the Apache website about the
> devlist. However, I totally don't know how to use it except for
> knowing how to join. For someone not familiar with it it's hard to
> even start his/her discussion because I believe (please correct me if
> I'm wrong) there are no rules on how to e.g. create a subject in the
> form of a [DISCUSSION] / [AIP-XY] etc.
>
indeed. This is something that we can describe :) I will add it to our
'Communications' PR.
> 2. There's no info about what is devlist / Slack better for but I've
> seen the latest PR https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7204 about
> it, so I won't talk too much now.
>
Yep. I think we need it.
>
> 3. I'd be happy to know what I myself, as a non-technical person, can
> do to make this community better. We have an info about documentation
> and the need of enhancing it on the website but if I were a student
> and would like to know more about the nature of OSS projects and even
> things like how to use JIRA / Github in such project, it would help.
> Let's say someone would like to gain experience to become a Project
> Manager in the future and build great teams based on Apache good
> practices even though open
> source projects have no actual structures.
>
I think we might have a good help from someone who would like to take on
the tasks that developers are not really good at. I think we - developers
are good in stuff that came be automated, but we are not that good in
organizing things where people's emotions arere important, I think what
would be great might be to help people to organize the work around
development. I think there are various good practices that mu by t be
introducedy by you and other Pms I worked with - for example retros, demos,
planning etc. - all that might be useful in the various groups we are
developing various functionalities we add for Airflow. There are meetings
announced in the devlist for various areas and they are open to everyone to
join. Maybe you could come to one of those meetings, observe it and help us
figure out how to do I better ? I think that might a good start!I'd love if
you come to one of our future meetings and tell us what we can improve ! I
am sure we can learn a lot from you.
>
> 4. Meetups / Apache Local Community - I think it's something
> non-technical people can do. In fact, I was happy to make the 1st
> Warsaw Apache Airflow meetup happen and cooperate with Aizhamal,
> Jarek, Tomek and Kamil to think of and make the best experience for
> people who wanted to know more about Apache Airflow project in
> general. I'm not sure if I would be honoured to take part in such an
> experience without the people I mentioned. I simply didn't know that
> as a Project Manager of cloud / big data project in a usual company I
> can still have small impact on building a better and more mature
> community. It's only because I did receive tons of mentorship,
> constant encouragement from my colleagues. Without them I wouldn't
> even know that it's possible to contribute as a non-programmer.
>
yeah. Mentoring is important on many levels. we should do more of it !
>
> 5. I was amazed by the results of the survey that Tomek has recently
> made. I started to look around for more general info about welcoming
> open source communities and what makes people join such communities. I
> bumped into a great study made by Digital Ocean which you can find
> under the following link:
>
> https://www.digitalocean.com/currents/december-2019/#anchor-the-community-of-open-source
> It describes things like inclusivity, men vs. women perception of open
> source projects / welcoming and friendly communities / rules etc. It's
> long but worth reading :-)
>
cool - I think we will do quite so e diversity discussion during our
upcoming Airflow Summit - we have some plans about it !
>
> Side story: I once took part in a mentorship program for young Project
> Managers wannabes and after spending 3 months with a brave and bright
> young lady I didn't think of open source community as a fresh start
> for her to gain experience. I'm glad that now I know that it's
> possible.
>
Certainly! I think we have plenty I possibilities, we are now planning to
participate in Google Summer Of Code and in Outreachy diversity Programme -
we can include you in it. Maybe you can help tthere ?
Karolina Rosół
> Polidea | Project Manager
>
> M: +48 606 630 236
> E: karolina.rosol@polidea.com
>
> Check out our projects!
>
>
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Karolina Rosół <ka...@polidea.com>.
Hi guys,
It's been some time since I gathered the courage to finally speak my
mind in this discussion.
I'd like to share some thoughts from a non-programmer's perspective
and what I wish I knew before joining Apache Airflow community.
TL;DR; Non-technical people would love to build this community as
well. We just don't know how ;-)
1. It is amazing that there's an info on the Apache website about the
devlist. However, I totally don't know how to use it except for
knowing how to join. For someone not familiar with it it's hard to
even start his/her discussion because I believe (please correct me if
I'm wrong) there are no rules on how to e.g. create a subject in the
form of a [DISCUSSION] / [AIP-XY] etc.
2. There's no info about what is devlist / Slack better for but I've
seen the latest PR https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7204 about
it, so I won't talk too much now.
3. I'd be happy to know what I myself, as a non-technical person, can
do to make this community better. We have an info about documentation
and the need of enhancing it on the website but if I were a student
and would like to know more about the nature of OSS projects and even
things like how to use JIRA / Github in such project, it would help.
Let's say someone would like to gain experience to become a Project
Manager in the future and build great teams based on Apache good
practices even though open
source projects have no actual structures.
4. Meetups / Apache Local Community - I think it's something
non-technical people can do. In fact, I was happy to make the 1st
Warsaw Apache Airflow meetup happen and cooperate with Aizhamal,
Jarek, Tomek and Kamil to think of and make the best experience for
people who wanted to know more about Apache Airflow project in
general. I'm not sure if I would be honoured to take part in such an
experience without the people I mentioned. I simply didn't know that
as a Project Manager of cloud / big data project in a usual company I
can still have small impact on building a better and more mature
community. It's only because I did receive tons of mentorship,
constant encouragement from my colleagues. Without them I wouldn't
even know that it's possible to contribute as a non-programmer.
5. I was amazed by the results of the survey that Tomek has recently
made. I started to look around for more general info about welcoming
open source communities and what makes people join such communities. I
bumped into a great study made by Digital Ocean which you can find
under the following link:
https://www.digitalocean.com/currents/december-2019/#anchor-the-community-of-open-source
It describes things like inclusivity, men vs. women perception of open
source projects / welcoming and friendly communities / rules etc. It's
long but worth reading :-)
Side story: I once took part in a mentorship program for young Project
Managers wannabes and after spending 3 months with a brave and bright
young lady I didn't think of open source community as a fresh start
for her to gain experience. I'm glad that now I know that it's
possible.
Karolina Rosół
Polidea | Project Manager
M: +48 606 630 236
E: karolina.rosol@polidea.com
Check out our projects!
Karolina Rosół
Polidea | Project Manager
M: +48 606 630 236
E: karolina.rosol@polidea.com
Check out our projects!
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:23 AM Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> That is a good find. We can do something similar.
>
> 2 things I have in mind:
>
> 1) A separate list slack@airflow.apache.org where we forward all Slack
> communication
>
> 2) A selective forward (filter certain channels to different list). Some of
> them can go to dev@ but some belong to users@ list
>
>
> I see (1) being more relevant. I will create a separate thread to discuss
> the specifics of Slack as that can be independent of this thread.
>
> Regards,
> Kaxil
>
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 14:09 Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
>
> > This is very interesting. I think we should try it. Simple #devlist channel
> > with bi-directional connection to devlist seems like it !
> >
> > J.
> >
> > pon., 27 sty 2020, 09:34 użytkownik Tomasz Urbaszek <tu...@apache.org>
> > napisał:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > There's an interesting discussion on the devcomm list regarding
> > > bidirectional integration between Slack and mailing list:
> > > "We have set up Mahout's slack space to forward directly to
> > > dev@mahout.apache.org. We will now be able to plan publicly on slack.
> > This
> > > a bi-directional connection, all messages to dev@mahout.apache.org will
> > > show up in Slack. No one will be left out of planning."
> > >
> > >
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rbc1c1c2a289accb40e7e3967f7c08213f13fea46013f73cf881c74c0%40%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> > >
> > > I think this can be an interesting approach. WDYT?
> > >
> > > T.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 2:36 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Based on this and a few other discussions we had in Slack and various
> > > PRs I
> > > > created another PR proposal:
> > > >
> > > > [AIRFLOW-XXXX] - add communication chapter to contributing
> > > > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7204> - I tried to capture at
> > > > least
> > > > my understanding on how Airflow Community works and how communication
> > > > happens. A lot of people do not understand how our community works and
> > > how
> > > > it is made of individuals and how the communication works - including
> > how
> > > > you should handle emotions during the discussions. I'd love to hear
> > > opinion
> > > > of all community members on my proposal - and possibly perfect/update
> > (or
> > > > discard if you think it is far from what we - as a community care
> > about.
> > > I
> > > > think it would be great to have a chapter explaining it - this might
> > > help
> > > > to point out new people and make it easier to understand how they can
> > > > communicate and what to expect.
> > > >
> > > > Looking forward to your comments.
> > > >
> > > > J.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:11 PM Jarek Potiuk <
> > Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I have just opened two PRs:
> > > > >
> > > > > - [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add mentoring information to contributing docs
> > > > > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7202> - this explains
> > to
> > > > new
> > > > > contributors that they can ask to get mentors and that there is an
> > > > official
> > > > > mentoring programme
> > > > > - [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add rebase info to contributing
> > > > > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7201> - I noticed
> > recently
> > > > > that a lot of people do not know about rebase workflow and are not
> > > > > comfortable with it. I have added a short step-by-step guide on
> > how
> > > to
> > > > > rebase PR in an easy way
> > > > >
> > > > > Other committers - please take a look and comments on those PRs as I
> > > > > think this is a vital part of our communication to the new
> > > contributors.
> > > > I
> > > > > think providing mentoring is a good step in direction of being
> > > welcoming,
> > > > > especially if we all act as mentors to some capacity and help others
> > to
> > > > > understand how our community works.
> > > > >
> > > > > J.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 11:41 AM Jarek Potiuk <
> > > Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Thanks Kamil! That's super helpful! I did not know such a programme
> > > > >> exist! I will add information about it to CONTRIBUTORS.rst
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 2:32 AM Kamil Breguła <
> > > > kamil.bregula@polidea.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Hello,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Many projects in the ASF are able to provide mentors for newcomers.
> > > In
> > > > >>> fact, most projects are happy to assist newcomers to their projects
> > > as
> > > > >>> part of their normal operations. However, some people are looking
> > for
> > > > >>> more structure. The Mentor Programme of the The Apache Software
> > > > >>> Foundation provides additional support and structure for people
> > > > >>> looking to make an initial contribution to an ASF project.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> More information:
> > > > >>> http://community.apache.org/mentoringprogramme.html
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Best regards,
> > > > >>> Kamil Breguła
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 10:53 AM Jarek Potiuk <
> > > > Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > I have some thoughts about the "mentoring" and being more
> > > welcoming.
> > > > >>> There
> > > > >>> > were quite a few discussions about that on slack/github/twitter.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > I think there are people with different experiences and some
> > people
> > > > >>> need a
> > > > >>> > bit more mentorship or guidance in some areas of Airflow
> > (testing,
> > > > >>> > documentation etc). So maybe a proposal (I started doing it
> > > already):
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > *When we (i.e. committers) make some comments and ask the
> > > > contributors
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>> > do something, we add something like "I am happy to provide more
> > > > >>> guidance if
> > > > >>> > needed" or "Happy to help if you need" etc. *
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > I think that might make some people feel more comfortable with
> > > their
> > > > >>> first
> > > > >>> > time contributions. It's really small thing but it might make a
> > > > >>> profound
> > > > >>> > impact on how we are perceived as community by people who
> > consider
> > > > >>> joining
> > > > >>> > our community.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > J
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jarek Potiuk <
> > > > Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > > So we have the
> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AIRFLOW-6556
> > > > >>> issue
> > > > >>> > > right now.
> > > > >>> > > Please comment :) If anyone would like to contribute their time
> > > and
> > > > >>> > > knowledge (ideally someone with tech-writing experience but
> > this
> > > is
> > > > >>> not
> > > > >>> > > necessary).
> > > > >>> > > I am happy to mentor such people and help them in setting it
> > up
> > > > and
> > > > >>> > > contributing, reviewing, involving other committers.
> > > > >>> > > Let me know if you would like to do something here and we can
> > > > >>> separate out
> > > > >>> > > some sub-tasks from the main one.
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > J.
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jarek Potiuk <
> > > > >>> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >> @Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas
> > > of
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>> > >>> documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post
> > > that
> > > > >>> here,
> > > > >>> > >>> or
> > > > >>> > >>> if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it
> > > commented
> > > > >>> there?
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >> It would be great if you can create a JIRA issue and assign
> > me.
> > > > >>> Thanks!
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >>>
> > > > >>> > >>
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > --
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > > >>> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software
> > Engineer
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > > >>> > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > --
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Jarek Potiuk
> > > > >>> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > > >>> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Jarek Potiuk
> > > > >> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > > >>
> > > > >> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > > >> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > > >
> > > > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > >
> > > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > >
> > >
> >
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com>.
That is a good find. We can do something similar.
2 things I have in mind:
1) A separate list slack@airflow.apache.org where we forward all Slack
communication
2) A selective forward (filter certain channels to different list). Some of
them can go to dev@ but some belong to users@ list
I see (1) being more relevant. I will create a separate thread to discuss
the specifics of Slack as that can be independent of this thread.
Regards,
Kaxil
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 14:09 Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
> This is very interesting. I think we should try it. Simple #devlist channel
> with bi-directional connection to devlist seems like it !
>
> J.
>
> pon., 27 sty 2020, 09:34 użytkownik Tomasz Urbaszek <tu...@apache.org>
> napisał:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > There's an interesting discussion on the devcomm list regarding
> > bidirectional integration between Slack and mailing list:
> > "We have set up Mahout's slack space to forward directly to
> > dev@mahout.apache.org. We will now be able to plan publicly on slack.
> This
> > a bi-directional connection, all messages to dev@mahout.apache.org will
> > show up in Slack. No one will be left out of planning."
> >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rbc1c1c2a289accb40e7e3967f7c08213f13fea46013f73cf881c74c0%40%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> >
> > I think this can be an interesting approach. WDYT?
> >
> > T.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 2:36 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Based on this and a few other discussions we had in Slack and various
> > PRs I
> > > created another PR proposal:
> > >
> > > [AIRFLOW-XXXX] - add communication chapter to contributing
> > > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7204> - I tried to capture at
> > > least
> > > my understanding on how Airflow Community works and how communication
> > > happens. A lot of people do not understand how our community works and
> > how
> > > it is made of individuals and how the communication works - including
> how
> > > you should handle emotions during the discussions. I'd love to hear
> > opinion
> > > of all community members on my proposal - and possibly perfect/update
> (or
> > > discard if you think it is far from what we - as a community care
> about.
> > I
> > > think it would be great to have a chapter explaining it - this might
> > help
> > > to point out new people and make it easier to understand how they can
> > > communicate and what to expect.
> > >
> > > Looking forward to your comments.
> > >
> > > J.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:11 PM Jarek Potiuk <
> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have just opened two PRs:
> > > >
> > > > - [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add mentoring information to contributing docs
> > > > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7202> - this explains
> to
> > > new
> > > > contributors that they can ask to get mentors and that there is an
> > > official
> > > > mentoring programme
> > > > - [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add rebase info to contributing
> > > > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7201> - I noticed
> recently
> > > > that a lot of people do not know about rebase workflow and are not
> > > > comfortable with it. I have added a short step-by-step guide on
> how
> > to
> > > > rebase PR in an easy way
> > > >
> > > > Other committers - please take a look and comments on those PRs as I
> > > > think this is a vital part of our communication to the new
> > contributors.
> > > I
> > > > think providing mentoring is a good step in direction of being
> > welcoming,
> > > > especially if we all act as mentors to some capacity and help others
> to
> > > > understand how our community works.
> > > >
> > > > J.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 11:41 AM Jarek Potiuk <
> > Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Thanks Kamil! That's super helpful! I did not know such a programme
> > > >> exist! I will add information about it to CONTRIBUTORS.rst
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 2:32 AM Kamil Breguła <
> > > kamil.bregula@polidea.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Hello,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Many projects in the ASF are able to provide mentors for newcomers.
> > In
> > > >>> fact, most projects are happy to assist newcomers to their projects
> > as
> > > >>> part of their normal operations. However, some people are looking
> for
> > > >>> more structure. The Mentor Programme of the The Apache Software
> > > >>> Foundation provides additional support and structure for people
> > > >>> looking to make an initial contribution to an ASF project.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> More information:
> > > >>> http://community.apache.org/mentoringprogramme.html
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Best regards,
> > > >>> Kamil Breguła
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 10:53 AM Jarek Potiuk <
> > > Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I have some thoughts about the "mentoring" and being more
> > welcoming.
> > > >>> There
> > > >>> > were quite a few discussions about that on slack/github/twitter.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I think there are people with different experiences and some
> people
> > > >>> need a
> > > >>> > bit more mentorship or guidance in some areas of Airflow
> (testing,
> > > >>> > documentation etc). So maybe a proposal (I started doing it
> > already):
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > *When we (i.e. committers) make some comments and ask the
> > > contributors
> > > >>> to
> > > >>> > do something, we add something like "I am happy to provide more
> > > >>> guidance if
> > > >>> > needed" or "Happy to help if you need" etc. *
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I think that might make some people feel more comfortable with
> > their
> > > >>> first
> > > >>> > time contributions. It's really small thing but it might make a
> > > >>> profound
> > > >>> > impact on how we are perceived as community by people who
> consider
> > > >>> joining
> > > >>> > our community.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > J
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jarek Potiuk <
> > > Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > > So we have the
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AIRFLOW-6556
> > > >>> issue
> > > >>> > > right now.
> > > >>> > > Please comment :) If anyone would like to contribute their time
> > and
> > > >>> > > knowledge (ideally someone with tech-writing experience but
> this
> > is
> > > >>> not
> > > >>> > > necessary).
> > > >>> > > I am happy to mentor such people and help them in setting it
> up
> > > and
> > > >>> > > contributing, reviewing, involving other committers.
> > > >>> > > Let me know if you would like to do something here and we can
> > > >>> separate out
> > > >>> > > some sub-tasks from the main one.
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > J.
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jarek Potiuk <
> > > >>> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > >>> > > wrote:
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >> @Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas
> > of
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> > >>> documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post
> > that
> > > >>> here,
> > > >>> > >>> or
> > > >>> > >>> if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it
> > commented
> > > >>> there?
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >> It would be great if you can create a JIRA issue and assign
> me.
> > > >>> Thanks!
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >>>
> > > >>> > >>
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > --
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > >>> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software
> Engineer
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > >>> > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > --
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Jarek Potiuk
> > > >>> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > >>> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >>
> > > >> Jarek Potiuk
> > > >> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > >>
> > > >> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > >> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > >
> > > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > >
> > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > >
> >
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
This is very interesting. I think we should try it. Simple #devlist channel
with bi-directional connection to devlist seems like it !
J.
pon., 27 sty 2020, 09:34 użytkownik Tomasz Urbaszek <tu...@apache.org>
napisał:
> Hi all,
>
> There's an interesting discussion on the devcomm list regarding
> bidirectional integration between Slack and mailing list:
> "We have set up Mahout's slack space to forward directly to
> dev@mahout.apache.org. We will now be able to plan publicly on slack. This
> a bi-directional connection, all messages to dev@mahout.apache.org will
> show up in Slack. No one will be left out of planning."
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rbc1c1c2a289accb40e7e3967f7c08213f13fea46013f73cf881c74c0%40%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
>
> I think this can be an interesting approach. WDYT?
>
> T.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 2:36 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Based on this and a few other discussions we had in Slack and various
> PRs I
> > created another PR proposal:
> >
> > [AIRFLOW-XXXX] - add communication chapter to contributing
> > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7204> - I tried to capture at
> > least
> > my understanding on how Airflow Community works and how communication
> > happens. A lot of people do not understand how our community works and
> how
> > it is made of individuals and how the communication works - including how
> > you should handle emotions during the discussions. I'd love to hear
> opinion
> > of all community members on my proposal - and possibly perfect/update (or
> > discard if you think it is far from what we - as a community care about.
> I
> > think it would be great to have a chapter explaining it - this might
> help
> > to point out new people and make it easier to understand how they can
> > communicate and what to expect.
> >
> > Looking forward to your comments.
> >
> > J.
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:11 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have just opened two PRs:
> > >
> > > - [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add mentoring information to contributing docs
> > > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7202> - this explains to
> > new
> > > contributors that they can ask to get mentors and that there is an
> > official
> > > mentoring programme
> > > - [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add rebase info to contributing
> > > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7201> - I noticed recently
> > > that a lot of people do not know about rebase workflow and are not
> > > comfortable with it. I have added a short step-by-step guide on how
> to
> > > rebase PR in an easy way
> > >
> > > Other committers - please take a look and comments on those PRs as I
> > > think this is a vital part of our communication to the new
> contributors.
> > I
> > > think providing mentoring is a good step in direction of being
> welcoming,
> > > especially if we all act as mentors to some capacity and help others to
> > > understand how our community works.
> > >
> > > J.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 11:41 AM Jarek Potiuk <
> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thanks Kamil! That's super helpful! I did not know such a programme
> > >> exist! I will add information about it to CONTRIBUTORS.rst
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 2:32 AM Kamil Breguła <
> > kamil.bregula@polidea.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hello,
> > >>>
> > >>> Many projects in the ASF are able to provide mentors for newcomers.
> In
> > >>> fact, most projects are happy to assist newcomers to their projects
> as
> > >>> part of their normal operations. However, some people are looking for
> > >>> more structure. The Mentor Programme of the The Apache Software
> > >>> Foundation provides additional support and structure for people
> > >>> looking to make an initial contribution to an ASF project.
> > >>>
> > >>> More information:
> > >>> http://community.apache.org/mentoringprogramme.html
> > >>>
> > >>> Best regards,
> > >>> Kamil Breguła
> > >>>
> > >>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 10:53 AM Jarek Potiuk <
> > Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I have some thoughts about the "mentoring" and being more
> welcoming.
> > >>> There
> > >>> > were quite a few discussions about that on slack/github/twitter.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I think there are people with different experiences and some people
> > >>> need a
> > >>> > bit more mentorship or guidance in some areas of Airflow (testing,
> > >>> > documentation etc). So maybe a proposal (I started doing it
> already):
> > >>> >
> > >>> > *When we (i.e. committers) make some comments and ask the
> > contributors
> > >>> to
> > >>> > do something, we add something like "I am happy to provide more
> > >>> guidance if
> > >>> > needed" or "Happy to help if you need" etc. *
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I think that might make some people feel more comfortable with
> their
> > >>> first
> > >>> > time contributions. It's really small thing but it might make a
> > >>> profound
> > >>> > impact on how we are perceived as community by people who consider
> > >>> joining
> > >>> > our community.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > J
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jarek Potiuk <
> > Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com
> > >>> >
> > >>> > wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > So we have the
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AIRFLOW-6556
> > >>> issue
> > >>> > > right now.
> > >>> > > Please comment :) If anyone would like to contribute their time
> and
> > >>> > > knowledge (ideally someone with tech-writing experience but this
> is
> > >>> not
> > >>> > > necessary).
> > >>> > > I am happy to mentor such people and help them in setting it up
> > and
> > >>> > > contributing, reviewing, involving other committers.
> > >>> > > Let me know if you would like to do something here and we can
> > >>> separate out
> > >>> > > some sub-tasks from the main one.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > J.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jarek Potiuk <
> > >>> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > >>> > > wrote:
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >> @Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas
> of
> > >>> the
> > >>> > >>> documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post
> that
> > >>> here,
> > >>> > >>> or
> > >>> > >>> if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it
> commented
> > >>> there?
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >> It would be great if you can create a JIRA issue and assign me.
> > >>> Thanks!
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > --
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Jarek Potiuk
> > >>> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > >>> > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > --
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Jarek Potiuk
> > >>> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > >>> >
> > >>> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > >>> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >> Jarek Potiuk
> > >> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > >>
> > >> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > >> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > >
> > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jarek Potiuk
> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> >
> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> >
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Tomasz Urbaszek <tu...@apache.org>.
Hi all,
There's an interesting discussion on the devcomm list regarding
bidirectional integration between Slack and mailing list:
"We have set up Mahout's slack space to forward directly to
dev@mahout.apache.org. We will now be able to plan publicly on slack. This
a bi-directional connection, all messages to dev@mahout.apache.org will
show up in Slack. No one will be left out of planning."
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/rbc1c1c2a289accb40e7e3967f7c08213f13fea46013f73cf881c74c0%40%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
I think this can be an interesting approach. WDYT?
T.
On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 2:36 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
wrote:
> Based on this and a few other discussions we had in Slack and various PRs I
> created another PR proposal:
>
> [AIRFLOW-XXXX] - add communication chapter to contributing
> <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7204> - I tried to capture at
> least
> my understanding on how Airflow Community works and how communication
> happens. A lot of people do not understand how our community works and how
> it is made of individuals and how the communication works - including how
> you should handle emotions during the discussions. I'd love to hear opinion
> of all community members on my proposal - and possibly perfect/update (or
> discard if you think it is far from what we - as a community care about. I
> think it would be great to have a chapter explaining it - this might help
> to point out new people and make it easier to understand how they can
> communicate and what to expect.
>
> Looking forward to your comments.
>
> J.
>
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:11 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have just opened two PRs:
> >
> > - [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add mentoring information to contributing docs
> > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7202> - this explains to
> new
> > contributors that they can ask to get mentors and that there is an
> official
> > mentoring programme
> > - [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add rebase info to contributing
> > <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7201> - I noticed recently
> > that a lot of people do not know about rebase workflow and are not
> > comfortable with it. I have added a short step-by-step guide on how to
> > rebase PR in an easy way
> >
> > Other committers - please take a look and comments on those PRs as I
> > think this is a vital part of our communication to the new contributors.
> I
> > think providing mentoring is a good step in direction of being welcoming,
> > especially if we all act as mentors to some capacity and help others to
> > understand how our community works.
> >
> > J.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 11:41 AM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks Kamil! That's super helpful! I did not know such a programme
> >> exist! I will add information about it to CONTRIBUTORS.rst
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 2:32 AM Kamil Breguła <
> kamil.bregula@polidea.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> Many projects in the ASF are able to provide mentors for newcomers. In
> >>> fact, most projects are happy to assist newcomers to their projects as
> >>> part of their normal operations. However, some people are looking for
> >>> more structure. The Mentor Programme of the The Apache Software
> >>> Foundation provides additional support and structure for people
> >>> looking to make an initial contribution to an ASF project.
> >>>
> >>> More information:
> >>> http://community.apache.org/mentoringprogramme.html
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> Kamil Breguła
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 10:53 AM Jarek Potiuk <
> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > I have some thoughts about the "mentoring" and being more welcoming.
> >>> There
> >>> > were quite a few discussions about that on slack/github/twitter.
> >>> >
> >>> > I think there are people with different experiences and some people
> >>> need a
> >>> > bit more mentorship or guidance in some areas of Airflow (testing,
> >>> > documentation etc). So maybe a proposal (I started doing it already):
> >>> >
> >>> > *When we (i.e. committers) make some comments and ask the
> contributors
> >>> to
> >>> > do something, we add something like "I am happy to provide more
> >>> guidance if
> >>> > needed" or "Happy to help if you need" etc. *
> >>> >
> >>> > I think that might make some people feel more comfortable with their
> >>> first
> >>> > time contributions. It's really small thing but it might make a
> >>> profound
> >>> > impact on how we are perceived as community by people who consider
> >>> joining
> >>> > our community.
> >>> >
> >>> > J
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jarek Potiuk <
> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com
> >>> >
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > So we have the https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AIRFLOW-6556
> >>> issue
> >>> > > right now.
> >>> > > Please comment :) If anyone would like to contribute their time and
> >>> > > knowledge (ideally someone with tech-writing experience but this is
> >>> not
> >>> > > necessary).
> >>> > > I am happy to mentor such people and help them in setting it up
> and
> >>> > > contributing, reviewing, involving other committers.
> >>> > > Let me know if you would like to do something here and we can
> >>> separate out
> >>> > > some sub-tasks from the main one.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > J.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jarek Potiuk <
> >>> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> >>> > > wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > >> @Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas of
> >>> the
> >>> > >>> documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post that
> >>> here,
> >>> > >>> or
> >>> > >>> if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it commented
> >>> there?
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> It would be great if you can create a JIRA issue and assign me.
> >>> Thanks!
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >>>
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > --
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Jarek Potiuk
> >>> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> >>> > >
> >>> > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> >>> > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> >
> >>> > Jarek Potiuk
> >>> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> >>> >
> >>> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> >>> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Jarek Potiuk
> >> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> >>
> >> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> >> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jarek Potiuk
> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> >
> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> Jarek Potiuk
> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>
> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
Based on this and a few other discussions we had in Slack and various PRs I
created another PR proposal:
[AIRFLOW-XXXX] - add communication chapter to contributing
<https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7204> - I tried to capture at least
my understanding on how Airflow Community works and how communication
happens. A lot of people do not understand how our community works and how
it is made of individuals and how the communication works - including how
you should handle emotions during the discussions. I'd love to hear opinion
of all community members on my proposal - and possibly perfect/update (or
discard if you think it is far from what we - as a community care about. I
think it would be great to have a chapter explaining it - this might help
to point out new people and make it easier to understand how they can
communicate and what to expect.
Looking forward to your comments.
J.
On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 12:11 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
wrote:
> I have just opened two PRs:
>
> - [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add mentoring information to contributing docs
> <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7202> - this explains to new
> contributors that they can ask to get mentors and that there is an official
> mentoring programme
> - [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add rebase info to contributing
> <https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7201> - I noticed recently
> that a lot of people do not know about rebase workflow and are not
> comfortable with it. I have added a short step-by-step guide on how to
> rebase PR in an easy way
>
> Other committers - please take a look and comments on those PRs as I
> think this is a vital part of our communication to the new contributors. I
> think providing mentoring is a good step in direction of being welcoming,
> especially if we all act as mentors to some capacity and help others to
> understand how our community works.
>
> J.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 11:41 AM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Kamil! That's super helpful! I did not know such a programme
>> exist! I will add information about it to CONTRIBUTORS.rst
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 2:32 AM Kamil Breguła <ka...@polidea.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Many projects in the ASF are able to provide mentors for newcomers. In
>>> fact, most projects are happy to assist newcomers to their projects as
>>> part of their normal operations. However, some people are looking for
>>> more structure. The Mentor Programme of the The Apache Software
>>> Foundation provides additional support and structure for people
>>> looking to make an initial contribution to an ASF project.
>>>
>>> More information:
>>> http://community.apache.org/mentoringprogramme.html
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Kamil Breguła
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 10:53 AM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I have some thoughts about the "mentoring" and being more welcoming.
>>> There
>>> > were quite a few discussions about that on slack/github/twitter.
>>> >
>>> > I think there are people with different experiences and some people
>>> need a
>>> > bit more mentorship or guidance in some areas of Airflow (testing,
>>> > documentation etc). So maybe a proposal (I started doing it already):
>>> >
>>> > *When we (i.e. committers) make some comments and ask the contributors
>>> to
>>> > do something, we add something like "I am happy to provide more
>>> guidance if
>>> > needed" or "Happy to help if you need" etc. *
>>> >
>>> > I think that might make some people feel more comfortable with their
>>> first
>>> > time contributions. It's really small thing but it might make a
>>> profound
>>> > impact on how we are perceived as community by people who consider
>>> joining
>>> > our community.
>>> >
>>> > J
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jarek Potiuk <Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com
>>> >
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > So we have the https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AIRFLOW-6556
>>> issue
>>> > > right now.
>>> > > Please comment :) If anyone would like to contribute their time and
>>> > > knowledge (ideally someone with tech-writing experience but this is
>>> not
>>> > > necessary).
>>> > > I am happy to mentor such people and help them in setting it up and
>>> > > contributing, reviewing, involving other committers.
>>> > > Let me know if you would like to do something here and we can
>>> separate out
>>> > > some sub-tasks from the main one.
>>> > >
>>> > > J.
>>> > >
>>> > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jarek Potiuk <
>>> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> @Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas of
>>> the
>>> > >>> documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post that
>>> here,
>>> > >>> or
>>> > >>> if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it commented
>>> there?
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> It would be great if you can create a JIRA issue and assign me.
>>> Thanks!
>>> > >>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > >
>>> > > Jarek Potiuk
>>> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>>> > >
>>> > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
>>> > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> >
>>> > Jarek Potiuk
>>> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>>> >
>>> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
>>> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jarek Potiuk
>> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>>
>> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
>> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> Jarek Potiuk
> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>
> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>
>
--
Jarek Potiuk
Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
[image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
I have just opened two PRs:
- [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add mentoring information to contributing docs
<https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7202> - this explains to new
contributors that they can ask to get mentors and that there is an official
mentoring programme
- [AIRFLOW-XXXX] Add rebase info to contributing
<https://github.com/apache/airflow/pull/7201> - I noticed recently that
a lot of people do not know about rebase workflow and are not comfortable
with it. I have added a short step-by-step guide on how to rebase PR in an
easy way
Other committers - please take a look and comments on those PRs as I think
this is a vital part of our communication to the new contributors. I think
providing mentoring is a good step in direction of being welcoming,
especially if we all act as mentors to some capacity and help others to
understand how our community works.
J.
On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 11:41 AM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
wrote:
> Thanks Kamil! That's super helpful! I did not know such a programme exist!
> I will add information about it to CONTRIBUTORS.rst
>
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 2:32 AM Kamil Breguła <ka...@polidea.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Many projects in the ASF are able to provide mentors for newcomers. In
>> fact, most projects are happy to assist newcomers to their projects as
>> part of their normal operations. However, some people are looking for
>> more structure. The Mentor Programme of the The Apache Software
>> Foundation provides additional support and structure for people
>> looking to make an initial contribution to an ASF project.
>>
>> More information:
>> http://community.apache.org/mentoringprogramme.html
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kamil Breguła
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 10:53 AM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I have some thoughts about the "mentoring" and being more welcoming.
>> There
>> > were quite a few discussions about that on slack/github/twitter.
>> >
>> > I think there are people with different experiences and some people
>> need a
>> > bit more mentorship or guidance in some areas of Airflow (testing,
>> > documentation etc). So maybe a proposal (I started doing it already):
>> >
>> > *When we (i.e. committers) make some comments and ask the contributors
>> to
>> > do something, we add something like "I am happy to provide more
>> guidance if
>> > needed" or "Happy to help if you need" etc. *
>> >
>> > I think that might make some people feel more comfortable with their
>> first
>> > time contributions. It's really small thing but it might make a profound
>> > impact on how we are perceived as community by people who consider
>> joining
>> > our community.
>> >
>> > J
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > So we have the https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AIRFLOW-6556
>> issue
>> > > right now.
>> > > Please comment :) If anyone would like to contribute their time and
>> > > knowledge (ideally someone with tech-writing experience but this is
>> not
>> > > necessary).
>> > > I am happy to mentor such people and help them in setting it up and
>> > > contributing, reviewing, involving other committers.
>> > > Let me know if you would like to do something here and we can
>> separate out
>> > > some sub-tasks from the main one.
>> > >
>> > > J.
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jarek Potiuk <
>> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> @Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas of the
>> > >>> documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post that
>> here,
>> > >>> or
>> > >>> if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it commented
>> there?
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >> It would be great if you can create a JIRA issue and assign me.
>> Thanks!
>> > >>
>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > >
>> > > Jarek Potiuk
>> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>> > >
>> > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
>> > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Jarek Potiuk
>> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>> >
>> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
>> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Jarek Potiuk
> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>
> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>
>
--
Jarek Potiuk
Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
[image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
Thanks Kamil! That's super helpful! I did not know such a programme exist!
I will add information about it to CONTRIBUTORS.rst
On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 2:32 AM Kamil Breguła <ka...@polidea.com>
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Many projects in the ASF are able to provide mentors for newcomers. In
> fact, most projects are happy to assist newcomers to their projects as
> part of their normal operations. However, some people are looking for
> more structure. The Mentor Programme of the The Apache Software
> Foundation provides additional support and structure for people
> looking to make an initial contribution to an ASF project.
>
> More information:
> http://community.apache.org/mentoringprogramme.html
>
> Best regards,
> Kamil Breguła
>
> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 10:53 AM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have some thoughts about the "mentoring" and being more welcoming.
> There
> > were quite a few discussions about that on slack/github/twitter.
> >
> > I think there are people with different experiences and some people need
> a
> > bit more mentorship or guidance in some areas of Airflow (testing,
> > documentation etc). So maybe a proposal (I started doing it already):
> >
> > *When we (i.e. committers) make some comments and ask the contributors to
> > do something, we add something like "I am happy to provide more guidance
> if
> > needed" or "Happy to help if you need" etc. *
> >
> > I think that might make some people feel more comfortable with their
> first
> > time contributions. It's really small thing but it might make a profound
> > impact on how we are perceived as community by people who consider
> joining
> > our community.
> >
> > J
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > So we have the https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AIRFLOW-6556
> issue
> > > right now.
> > > Please comment :) If anyone would like to contribute their time and
> > > knowledge (ideally someone with tech-writing experience but this is not
> > > necessary).
> > > I am happy to mentor such people and help them in setting it up and
> > > contributing, reviewing, involving other committers.
> > > Let me know if you would like to do something here and we can separate
> out
> > > some sub-tasks from the main one.
> > >
> > > J.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jarek Potiuk <Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> @Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas of the
> > >>> documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post that
> here,
> > >>> or
> > >>> if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it commented
> there?
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> It would be great if you can create a JIRA issue and assign me.
> Thanks!
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > >
> > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jarek Potiuk
> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> >
> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>
--
Jarek Potiuk
Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
[image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Kamil Breguła <ka...@polidea.com>.
Hello,
Many projects in the ASF are able to provide mentors for newcomers. In
fact, most projects are happy to assist newcomers to their projects as
part of their normal operations. However, some people are looking for
more structure. The Mentor Programme of the The Apache Software
Foundation provides additional support and structure for people
looking to make an initial contribution to an ASF project.
More information:
http://community.apache.org/mentoringprogramme.html
Best regards,
Kamil Breguła
On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 10:53 AM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
>
> I have some thoughts about the "mentoring" and being more welcoming. There
> were quite a few discussions about that on slack/github/twitter.
>
> I think there are people with different experiences and some people need a
> bit more mentorship or guidance in some areas of Airflow (testing,
> documentation etc). So maybe a proposal (I started doing it already):
>
> *When we (i.e. committers) make some comments and ask the contributors to
> do something, we add something like "I am happy to provide more guidance if
> needed" or "Happy to help if you need" etc. *
>
> I think that might make some people feel more comfortable with their first
> time contributions. It's really small thing but it might make a profound
> impact on how we are perceived as community by people who consider joining
> our community.
>
> J
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> wrote:
>
> > So we have the https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AIRFLOW-6556 issue
> > right now.
> > Please comment :) If anyone would like to contribute their time and
> > knowledge (ideally someone with tech-writing experience but this is not
> > necessary).
> > I am happy to mentor such people and help them in setting it up and
> > contributing, reviewing, involving other committers.
> > Let me know if you would like to do something here and we can separate out
> > some sub-tasks from the main one.
> >
> > J.
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> @Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas of the
> >>> documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post that here,
> >>> or
> >>> if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it commented there?
> >>>
> >>
> >> It would be great if you can create a JIRA issue and assign me. Thanks!
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jarek Potiuk
> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> >
> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> Jarek Potiuk
> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>
> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
I have some thoughts about the "mentoring" and being more welcoming. There
were quite a few discussions about that on slack/github/twitter.
I think there are people with different experiences and some people need a
bit more mentorship or guidance in some areas of Airflow (testing,
documentation etc). So maybe a proposal (I started doing it already):
*When we (i.e. committers) make some comments and ask the contributors to
do something, we add something like "I am happy to provide more guidance if
needed" or "Happy to help if you need" etc. *
I think that might make some people feel more comfortable with their first
time contributions. It's really small thing but it might make a profound
impact on how we are perceived as community by people who consider joining
our community.
J
On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
wrote:
> So we have the https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AIRFLOW-6556 issue
> right now.
> Please comment :) If anyone would like to contribute their time and
> knowledge (ideally someone with tech-writing experience but this is not
> necessary).
> I am happy to mentor such people and help them in setting it up and
> contributing, reviewing, involving other committers.
> Let me know if you would like to do something here and we can separate out
> some sub-tasks from the main one.
>
> J.
>
> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> wrote:
>
>> @Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas of the
>>> documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post that here,
>>> or
>>> if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it commented there?
>>>
>>
>> It would be great if you can create a JIRA issue and assign me. Thanks!
>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Jarek Potiuk
> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>
> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>
>
--
Jarek Potiuk
Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
[image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
So we have the https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/AIRFLOW-6556 issue
right now.
Please comment :) If anyone would like to contribute their time and
knowledge (ideally someone with tech-writing experience but this is not
necessary).
I am happy to mentor such people and help them in setting it up and
contributing, reviewing, involving other committers.
Let me know if you would like to do something here and we can separate out
some sub-tasks from the main one.
J.
On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 2:00 PM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
wrote:
> @Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas of the
>> documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post that here, or
>> if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it commented there?
>>
>
> It would be great if you can create a JIRA issue and assign me. Thanks!
>
>>
>
--
Jarek Potiuk
Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
[image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
>
> @Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas of the
> documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post that here, or
> if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it commented there?
>
It would be great if you can create a JIRA issue and assign me. Thanks!
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jacob Ward <jw...@brandwatch.com>.
That's great to hear Kaxil, I am looking forward to seeing these
improvements!
@Jarek, I'm happy to have a think and make a list of the areas of the
documentation I find most lacking. Would you like me to post that here, or
if we open a Jira ticket would it be better to have it commented there?
Jacob
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 at 15:38, Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
> Oh yeah. We are definitely on a track to improve documentation. When I look
> back at what we had even half a year ago, we are on a really good track.
>
> @Jacob @Anton (and others - especially newcomers) - maybe you could list
> also other areas/concepts/ that you found documentation is
> lacking/unclear?
>
> It would be great to start building such a list and fix it. For committers
> a lot of the concepts are clear because they know it by heart, and they
> simply do not realise there are missing things. So while comitters are best
> to understand how things work, the users are best to point out the
> problems.
>
> Anyone?
>
> J.
>
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:59 PM Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Jacob,
> >
> > I added the automation around Documenting all the Airflow configs. As a
> > next step, I am going to add documentation around each of these configs.
> >
> > Will open some PRs shortly :) around this.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kaxil
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 12:21 PM Jacob Ward <jw...@brandwatch.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > As someone who is interested in contributing, but has not been able to
> > yet,
> > > I agree massively with Tomasz. There is still so much I need to
> > understand
> > > about how Airflow works and pretty much everything I have learned is
> from
> > > trial and error. While I do agree that a certain amount of testing is
> > > helpful in understanding a technology, there is so much lacking in the
> > > documentation that I often resort to code diving, or worse guesswork,
> > when
> > > trying to understand a new concept. This not only raises the barrier
> for
> > > entry for using Airflow and developing for Airflow, but I also feel it
> > > reduces my confidence in being able to commit as there is so much of
> the
> > > codebase which just seems mysterious and unknown to me.
> > >
> > > Take for example the config options. Only recently has someone made a
> > > documentation page which explains every option, but this itself is very
> > > lacking; it has no more information than the comments on the default
> > > airflow config file. Improving and expanding the documentation can be
> > best
> > > done by those who understand Airflow the best; committers. It's a great
> > > investment in development as it accelerates the learning for new and
> > > intermediate users, who can sooner become contributing members of the
> > > community.
> > >
> > > Just a few thoughts that I hope will be considered.
> > >
> > > Jacob
> > >
> > > On Sun, 29 Dec 2019 at 18:50, Tomasz Urbaszek <
> > tomasz.urbaszek@polidea.com
> > > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion we area great community but we are not "Airflow". If
> > > someone
> > > > finds us, then his or her troubles are probably solved. At least I
> hope
> > > so.
> > > > But last survey result includes a few really important
> "non-technical"
> > > > points:
> > > >
> > > > When onboarding new members to Airflow, what is the biggest problem?
> > > > - No guide on best practises on developing DAGs 51.95%
> > > > - Small number of tutorials on different aspects of using Airflow
> > 18.51%
> > > > In your opinion, what could be improved in Airflow?
> > > > - Examples, how-to, onboarding documentation 46.43%
> > > > - Technical documentation 44.48%
> > > >
> > > > These are "users opinions" but I would also give them a +1. I think
> > that
> > > to
> > > > encourage
> > > > people to contribute to Airflow we frist should encourage to use the
> > > tool.
> > > > Then,
> > > > when people know how to and how not to use Airflow they will be able
> to
> > > > spot real
> > > > bugs and groundbreaking features. A user who contributes is a great
> > value
> > > > and
> > > > it's something we should encourage.
> > > >
> > > > Airflow is a huge project and the easier it will be to understand how
> > it
> > > > works, the easier
> > > > it will be to contribute. After 6 months there are still things that
> I
> > do
> > > > not fully understand.
> > > > I think our new website is a tremendous opportunity.
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, I fully support the idea of meetups. I really like
> > the
> > > > quite new
> > > > Apache Local Community[1] idea. It's something that should bring ASF
> > and
> > > > OSS
> > > > closer to students, devs, business people and anyone who's
> interested.
> > > > Moreover,
> > > > it's something that will bring value to our communities because those
> > > > meetings
> > > > will be a great opportunity to exchange experiences between projects.
> > > >
> > > > T.
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/Apache+Local+Community+-+ALC
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 7:12 PM Felix Uellendall
> > <feluelle@pm.me.invalid
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hey Jarek,
> > > > >
> > > > > I really like the points you bring up. While reading your mail I
> > > thought
> > > > > about the same things. For me at the beginning it was really hard
> to
> > > get
> > > > > into this community and how everything works mostly because of the
> > > > > language. I am not sure but maybe it would also be a good idea to
> > > > organize
> > > > > meetings in native languages first for people who do not feel
> > > comfortable
> > > > > speaking/reading/writing in English - just to help them to feel
> > > > > comfortable. And after they got a basic understanding of the whole
> > > > process
> > > > > of contribution and how the project works they can start learning
> > > English
> > > > > if they want to join the community.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course English is a requirement but I think people would be more
> > > > > willing to improve their English if they have no other barriers
> left
> > > that
> > > > > are keeping them from joining this community.
> > > > >
> > > > > Felix
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 18:37, Jarek Potiuk <
> > Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello everyone,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being
> > > (even
> > > > > > more) welcoming community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently
> > and
> > > > you
> > > > > > might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety
> of
> > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic
> and
> > > > > > mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like
> to
> > > ask
> > > > > > everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
> > > > > >
> > > > > > First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really
> > > > > welcoming
> > > > > > and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various
> ways
> > > to
> > > > > new
> > > > > > community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are
> > > responsive,
> > > > > > helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the
> > > > survey).
> > > > > > We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer
> status"
> > > > > (that's
> > > > > > highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC
> > > > members
> > > > > > (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow
> Summits),
> > > > > > workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier
> > for
> > > > new
> > > > > > contributors to start contributing - by environment and
> > documentation
> > > > > > improvements.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry.
> > It's
> > > > not
> > > > > > super easy to join the community and you must really earn your
> > status
> > > > to
> > > > > > become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a
> > > > community
> > > > > in
> > > > > > enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without
> > > being
> > > > > > rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I
> > joined
> > > > the
> > > > > > community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this
> > > > community
> > > > > > decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people
> > talking
> > > > at
> > > > > > slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very
> > > important
> > > > > > lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And
> it
> > > was
> > > > > > super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
> > > > > > understanding how this all works (which I did).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced
> > > > automatically,
> > > > > > some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have
> > expectations
> > > > for
> > > > > > engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to
> > > > follow-up
> > > > > > their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and
> > engage
> > > > > > committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only
> to
> > > > > > finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing
> > > things
> > > > > they
> > > > > > find or even improve the processes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry.
> When
> > > > > someone
> > > > > > new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they
> can
> > be
> > > > > > valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way
> > > > > community
> > > > > > works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and
> > expectations
> > > > and
> > > > > > that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we
> > > expect
> > > > > > those people to follow the expectations before we invite them
> > further
> > > > > after
> > > > > > they "earned" the status. This is best described in the
> > "meritocracy"
> > > > > rule
> > > > > > defined here:
> > > > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy
> .
> > We
> > > > are
> > > > > > following it really well I think.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
> > > > > > open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly
> well.
> > > And
> > > > > > I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache
> Software
> > > > > > Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether
> we
> > > > need
> > > > > to
> > > > > > do better currently at all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do
> > > > > something
> > > > > > more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming.
> > Maybe
> > > we
> > > > > can
> > > > > > get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too
> > > > > difficult?
> > > > > > Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded
> do
> > > not
> > > > > > speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and
> > they
> > > > are
> > > > > > afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be
> shouted
> > > > at. I
> > > > > > think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks
> > great
> > > > and
> > > > > > when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being
> > > > triggered
> > > > > by
> > > > > > people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
> > > > > > deteriorates.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with
> one
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the
> > > > after-party.
> > > > > We
> > > > > > talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to
> > leave
> > > > the
> > > > > > party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to
> > > > raised a
> > > > > > few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to
> > > openly
> > > > > > speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are
> > > > valuing
> > > > > > less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
> > > > > )
> > > > > > and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new
> > > > community
> > > > > > and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and
> he
> > > had
> > > > > > some really good examples for all those statements from his own
> > > > > experience.
> > > > > > After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him),
> > > > looked
> > > > > at
> > > > > > our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees
> how
> > > > > > welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns
> > he
> > > > has
> > > > > in
> > > > > > really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I
> > > > thought -
> > > > > > maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list,
> > almost
> > > > all
> > > > > > the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of
> > > course -
> > > > > > reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe
> we
> > > are
> > > > > > (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or
> > > slack
> > > > > or
> > > > > > reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to
> our
> > > > > > community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a
> great
> > > > point
> > > > > > that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the
> > devlist
> > > or
> > > > > > slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to
> > > those
> > > > > > people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship
> for
> > > new
> > > > > > people so that we can guide people through the first stages of
> > > becoming
> > > > > > contributors and navigate the way our community works?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It looks like we already have people from all over the world -
> US,
> > > > > Europe,
> > > > > > India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of
> > > those
> > > > > > places. But maybe we could do more to get more people
> > > > contributing/users
> > > > > > invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China
> > yet
> > > > and
> > > > > > not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we
> > can
> > > > do
> > > > > > something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where
> we
> > > had
> > > > > > Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow
> > :)
> > > ?
> > > > > > There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > ApacheCon Europe few months ago
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new
> > > > contributors
> > > > > > in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors
> > from
> > > > > there
> > > > > > (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who
> > has
> > > > > > difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be
> > > your
> > > > > > local mentor for that).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have
> > > them
> > > > > > immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or
> > not.
> > > > But
> > > > > I
> > > > > > wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it -
> > > both
> > > > > > active members of our community and those who are just listening
> > and
> > > > > rarely
> > > > > > discuss.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue?
> Or
> > > > maybe
> > > > > > there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better
> > at
> > > > > being
> > > > > > more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion
> > > elsewhere
> > > > > > (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the
> > > > devlist
> > > > > > can chime in ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might
> quickly
> > > > > become a
> > > > > > controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so
> > > let's
> > > > > all
> > > > > > be careful with words and statements.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > J.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > > > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > > > >
> > > > > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > > > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Tomasz Urbaszek
> > > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Software Engineer
> > > >
> > > > M: +48 505 628 493 <+48505628493>
> > > > E: tomasz.urbaszek@polidea.com <to...@polidea.com>
> > > >
> > > > Unique Tech
> > > > Check out our projects! <https://www.polidea.com/our-work>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Jarek Potiuk
> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>
> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy <ai...@google.com.INVALID>.
Really good feedback, Jakob and Anton. As Jarek said, it would be really
helpful to identify the areas of documentation that we are lacking greatly.
There is a term called "expert blindness
<https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/9802/is-there-a-name-or-a-phrase-for-not-being-able-to-think-like-a-new-user>",
where the people who are most knowledgeable about the technology
(committers) can’t see the shortcomings because they can’t experience what
it’s like not to know and be new to the concept. Therefore *YOUR* feedback
is very valuable.
Jarek, I am thinking of creating the inventory of the Airflow documentation
and maybe there we can mark documentation pages that need to be updated and
the ones that need to be created from scratch, also have a record of who is
working/can work on each of them. WDYT?
On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 7:38 AM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
wrote:
> Oh yeah. We are definitely on a track to improve documentation. When I look
> back at what we had even half a year ago, we are on a really good track.
>
> @Jacob @Anton (and others - especially newcomers) - maybe you could list
> also other areas/concepts/ that you found documentation is
> lacking/unclear?
>
> It would be great to start building such a list and fix it. For committers
> a lot of the concepts are clear because they know it by heart, and they
> simply do not realise there are missing things. So while comitters are best
> to understand how things work, the users are best to point out the
> problems.
>
> Anyone?
>
> J.
>
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:59 PM Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Jacob,
> >
> > I added the automation around Documenting all the Airflow configs. As a
> > next step, I am going to add documentation around each of these configs.
> >
> > Will open some PRs shortly :) around this.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kaxil
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 12:21 PM Jacob Ward <jw...@brandwatch.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > As someone who is interested in contributing, but has not been able to
> > yet,
> > > I agree massively with Tomasz. There is still so much I need to
> > understand
> > > about how Airflow works and pretty much everything I have learned is
> from
> > > trial and error. While I do agree that a certain amount of testing is
> > > helpful in understanding a technology, there is so much lacking in the
> > > documentation that I often resort to code diving, or worse guesswork,
> > when
> > > trying to understand a new concept. This not only raises the barrier
> for
> > > entry for using Airflow and developing for Airflow, but I also feel it
> > > reduces my confidence in being able to commit as there is so much of
> the
> > > codebase which just seems mysterious and unknown to me.
> > >
> > > Take for example the config options. Only recently has someone made a
> > > documentation page which explains every option, but this itself is very
> > > lacking; it has no more information than the comments on the default
> > > airflow config file. Improving and expanding the documentation can be
> > best
> > > done by those who understand Airflow the best; committers. It's a great
> > > investment in development as it accelerates the learning for new and
> > > intermediate users, who can sooner become contributing members of the
> > > community.
> > >
> > > Just a few thoughts that I hope will be considered.
> > >
> > > Jacob
> > >
> > > On Sun, 29 Dec 2019 at 18:50, Tomasz Urbaszek <
> > tomasz.urbaszek@polidea.com
> > > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion we area great community but we are not "Airflow". If
> > > someone
> > > > finds us, then his or her troubles are probably solved. At least I
> hope
> > > so.
> > > > But last survey result includes a few really important
> "non-technical"
> > > > points:
> > > >
> > > > When onboarding new members to Airflow, what is the biggest problem?
> > > > - No guide on best practises on developing DAGs 51.95%
> > > > - Small number of tutorials on different aspects of using Airflow
> > 18.51%
> > > > In your opinion, what could be improved in Airflow?
> > > > - Examples, how-to, onboarding documentation 46.43%
> > > > - Technical documentation 44.48%
> > > >
> > > > These are "users opinions" but I would also give them a +1. I think
> > that
> > > to
> > > > encourage
> > > > people to contribute to Airflow we frist should encourage to use the
> > > tool.
> > > > Then,
> > > > when people know how to and how not to use Airflow they will be able
> to
> > > > spot real
> > > > bugs and groundbreaking features. A user who contributes is a great
> > value
> > > > and
> > > > it's something we should encourage.
> > > >
> > > > Airflow is a huge project and the easier it will be to understand how
> > it
> > > > works, the easier
> > > > it will be to contribute. After 6 months there are still things that
> I
> > do
> > > > not fully understand.
> > > > I think our new website is a tremendous opportunity.
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, I fully support the idea of meetups. I really like
> > the
> > > > quite new
> > > > Apache Local Community[1] idea. It's something that should bring ASF
> > and
> > > > OSS
> > > > closer to students, devs, business people and anyone who's
> interested.
> > > > Moreover,
> > > > it's something that will bring value to our communities because those
> > > > meetings
> > > > will be a great opportunity to exchange experiences between projects.
> > > >
> > > > T.
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/Apache+Local+Community+-+ALC
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 7:12 PM Felix Uellendall
> > <feluelle@pm.me.invalid
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hey Jarek,
> > > > >
> > > > > I really like the points you bring up. While reading your mail I
> > > thought
> > > > > about the same things. For me at the beginning it was really hard
> to
> > > get
> > > > > into this community and how everything works mostly because of the
> > > > > language. I am not sure but maybe it would also be a good idea to
> > > > organize
> > > > > meetings in native languages first for people who do not feel
> > > comfortable
> > > > > speaking/reading/writing in English - just to help them to feel
> > > > > comfortable. And after they got a basic understanding of the whole
> > > > process
> > > > > of contribution and how the project works they can start learning
> > > English
> > > > > if they want to join the community.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course English is a requirement but I think people would be more
> > > > > willing to improve their English if they have no other barriers
> left
> > > that
> > > > > are keeping them from joining this community.
> > > > >
> > > > > Felix
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 18:37, Jarek Potiuk <
> > Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello everyone,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being
> > > (even
> > > > > > more) welcoming community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently
> > and
> > > > you
> > > > > > might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety
> of
> > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic
> and
> > > > > > mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like
> to
> > > ask
> > > > > > everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
> > > > > >
> > > > > > First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really
> > > > > welcoming
> > > > > > and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various
> ways
> > > to
> > > > > new
> > > > > > community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are
> > > responsive,
> > > > > > helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the
> > > > survey).
> > > > > > We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer
> status"
> > > > > (that's
> > > > > > highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC
> > > > members
> > > > > > (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow
> Summits),
> > > > > > workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier
> > for
> > > > new
> > > > > > contributors to start contributing - by environment and
> > documentation
> > > > > > improvements.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry.
> > It's
> > > > not
> > > > > > super easy to join the community and you must really earn your
> > status
> > > > to
> > > > > > become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a
> > > > community
> > > > > in
> > > > > > enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without
> > > being
> > > > > > rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I
> > joined
> > > > the
> > > > > > community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this
> > > > community
> > > > > > decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people
> > talking
> > > > at
> > > > > > slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very
> > > important
> > > > > > lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And
> it
> > > was
> > > > > > super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
> > > > > > understanding how this all works (which I did).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced
> > > > automatically,
> > > > > > some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have
> > expectations
> > > > for
> > > > > > engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to
> > > > follow-up
> > > > > > their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and
> > engage
> > > > > > committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only
> to
> > > > > > finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing
> > > things
> > > > > they
> > > > > > find or even improve the processes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry.
> When
> > > > > someone
> > > > > > new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they
> can
> > be
> > > > > > valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way
> > > > > community
> > > > > > works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and
> > expectations
> > > > and
> > > > > > that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we
> > > expect
> > > > > > those people to follow the expectations before we invite them
> > further
> > > > > after
> > > > > > they "earned" the status. This is best described in the
> > "meritocracy"
> > > > > rule
> > > > > > defined here:
> > > > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy
> .
> > We
> > > > are
> > > > > > following it really well I think.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
> > > > > > open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly
> well.
> > > And
> > > > > > I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache
> Software
> > > > > > Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether
> we
> > > > need
> > > > > to
> > > > > > do better currently at all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do
> > > > > something
> > > > > > more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming.
> > Maybe
> > > we
> > > > > can
> > > > > > get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too
> > > > > difficult?
> > > > > > Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded
> do
> > > not
> > > > > > speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and
> > they
> > > > are
> > > > > > afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be
> shouted
> > > > at. I
> > > > > > think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks
> > great
> > > > and
> > > > > > when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being
> > > > triggered
> > > > > by
> > > > > > people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
> > > > > > deteriorates.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with
> one
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the
> > > > after-party.
> > > > > We
> > > > > > talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to
> > leave
> > > > the
> > > > > > party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to
> > > > raised a
> > > > > > few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to
> > > openly
> > > > > > speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are
> > > > valuing
> > > > > > less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
> > > > > )
> > > > > > and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new
> > > > community
> > > > > > and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and
> he
> > > had
> > > > > > some really good examples for all those statements from his own
> > > > > experience.
> > > > > > After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him),
> > > > looked
> > > > > at
> > > > > > our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees
> how
> > > > > > welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns
> > he
> > > > has
> > > > > in
> > > > > > really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I
> > > > thought -
> > > > > > maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list,
> > almost
> > > > all
> > > > > > the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of
> > > course -
> > > > > > reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe
> we
> > > are
> > > > > > (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or
> > > slack
> > > > > or
> > > > > > reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to
> our
> > > > > > community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a
> great
> > > > point
> > > > > > that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the
> > devlist
> > > or
> > > > > > slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to
> > > those
> > > > > > people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship
> for
> > > new
> > > > > > people so that we can guide people through the first stages of
> > > becoming
> > > > > > contributors and navigate the way our community works?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It looks like we already have people from all over the world -
> US,
> > > > > Europe,
> > > > > > India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of
> > > those
> > > > > > places. But maybe we could do more to get more people
> > > > contributing/users
> > > > > > invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China
> > yet
> > > > and
> > > > > > not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we
> > can
> > > > do
> > > > > > something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where
> we
> > > had
> > > > > > Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow
> > :)
> > > ?
> > > > > > There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > ApacheCon Europe few months ago
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new
> > > > contributors
> > > > > > in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors
> > from
> > > > > there
> > > > > > (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who
> > has
> > > > > > difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be
> > > your
> > > > > > local mentor for that).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have
> > > them
> > > > > > immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or
> > not.
> > > > But
> > > > > I
> > > > > > wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it -
> > > both
> > > > > > active members of our community and those who are just listening
> > and
> > > > > rarely
> > > > > > discuss.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue?
> Or
> > > > maybe
> > > > > > there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better
> > at
> > > > > being
> > > > > > more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion
> > > elsewhere
> > > > > > (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the
> > > > devlist
> > > > > > can chime in ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might
> quickly
> > > > > become a
> > > > > > controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so
> > > let's
> > > > > all
> > > > > > be careful with words and statements.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > J.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > > > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > > > >
> > > > > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48%20660%20796%20129> <+48660796129
> <+48%20660%20796%20129>>
> > > > > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Tomasz Urbaszek
> > > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Software Engineer
> > > >
> > > > M: +48 505 628 493 <+48%20505%20628%20493> <+48505628493
> <+48%20505%20628%20493>>
> > > > E: tomasz.urbaszek@polidea.com <to...@polidea.com>
> > > >
> > > > Unique Tech
> > > > Check out our projects! <https://www.polidea.com/our-work>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Jarek Potiuk
> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>
> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48%20660%20796%20129> <+48660796129
> <+48%20660%20796%20129>>
> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
Oh yeah. We are definitely on a track to improve documentation. When I look
back at what we had even half a year ago, we are on a really good track.
@Jacob @Anton (and others - especially newcomers) - maybe you could list
also other areas/concepts/ that you found documentation is
lacking/unclear?
It would be great to start building such a list and fix it. For committers
a lot of the concepts are clear because they know it by heart, and they
simply do not realise there are missing things. So while comitters are best
to understand how things work, the users are best to point out the
problems.
Anyone?
J.
On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:59 PM Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Jacob,
>
> I added the automation around Documenting all the Airflow configs. As a
> next step, I am going to add documentation around each of these configs.
>
> Will open some PRs shortly :) around this.
>
> Regards,
> Kaxil
>
> On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 12:21 PM Jacob Ward <jw...@brandwatch.com> wrote:
>
> > As someone who is interested in contributing, but has not been able to
> yet,
> > I agree massively with Tomasz. There is still so much I need to
> understand
> > about how Airflow works and pretty much everything I have learned is from
> > trial and error. While I do agree that a certain amount of testing is
> > helpful in understanding a technology, there is so much lacking in the
> > documentation that I often resort to code diving, or worse guesswork,
> when
> > trying to understand a new concept. This not only raises the barrier for
> > entry for using Airflow and developing for Airflow, but I also feel it
> > reduces my confidence in being able to commit as there is so much of the
> > codebase which just seems mysterious and unknown to me.
> >
> > Take for example the config options. Only recently has someone made a
> > documentation page which explains every option, but this itself is very
> > lacking; it has no more information than the comments on the default
> > airflow config file. Improving and expanding the documentation can be
> best
> > done by those who understand Airflow the best; committers. It's a great
> > investment in development as it accelerates the learning for new and
> > intermediate users, who can sooner become contributing members of the
> > community.
> >
> > Just a few thoughts that I hope will be considered.
> >
> > Jacob
> >
> > On Sun, 29 Dec 2019 at 18:50, Tomasz Urbaszek <
> tomasz.urbaszek@polidea.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > In my opinion we area great community but we are not "Airflow". If
> > someone
> > > finds us, then his or her troubles are probably solved. At least I hope
> > so.
> > > But last survey result includes a few really important "non-technical"
> > > points:
> > >
> > > When onboarding new members to Airflow, what is the biggest problem?
> > > - No guide on best practises on developing DAGs 51.95%
> > > - Small number of tutorials on different aspects of using Airflow
> 18.51%
> > > In your opinion, what could be improved in Airflow?
> > > - Examples, how-to, onboarding documentation 46.43%
> > > - Technical documentation 44.48%
> > >
> > > These are "users opinions" but I would also give them a +1. I think
> that
> > to
> > > encourage
> > > people to contribute to Airflow we frist should encourage to use the
> > tool.
> > > Then,
> > > when people know how to and how not to use Airflow they will be able to
> > > spot real
> > > bugs and groundbreaking features. A user who contributes is a great
> value
> > > and
> > > it's something we should encourage.
> > >
> > > Airflow is a huge project and the easier it will be to understand how
> it
> > > works, the easier
> > > it will be to contribute. After 6 months there are still things that I
> do
> > > not fully understand.
> > > I think our new website is a tremendous opportunity.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, I fully support the idea of meetups. I really like
> the
> > > quite new
> > > Apache Local Community[1] idea. It's something that should bring ASF
> and
> > > OSS
> > > closer to students, devs, business people and anyone who's interested.
> > > Moreover,
> > > it's something that will bring value to our communities because those
> > > meetings
> > > will be a great opportunity to exchange experiences between projects.
> > >
> > > T.
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/Apache+Local+Community+-+ALC
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 7:12 PM Felix Uellendall
> <feluelle@pm.me.invalid
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hey Jarek,
> > > >
> > > > I really like the points you bring up. While reading your mail I
> > thought
> > > > about the same things. For me at the beginning it was really hard to
> > get
> > > > into this community and how everything works mostly because of the
> > > > language. I am not sure but maybe it would also be a good idea to
> > > organize
> > > > meetings in native languages first for people who do not feel
> > comfortable
> > > > speaking/reading/writing in English - just to help them to feel
> > > > comfortable. And after they got a basic understanding of the whole
> > > process
> > > > of contribution and how the project works they can start learning
> > English
> > > > if they want to join the community.
> > > >
> > > > Of course English is a requirement but I think people would be more
> > > > willing to improve their English if they have no other barriers left
> > that
> > > > are keeping them from joining this community.
> > > >
> > > > Felix
> > > >
> > > > Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 18:37, Jarek Potiuk <
> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello everyone,
> > > > >
> > > > > TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being
> > (even
> > > > > more) welcoming community.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently
> and
> > > you
> > > > > might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety of
> > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic and
> > > > > mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like to
> > ask
> > > > > everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
> > > > >
> > > > > *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
> > > > >
> > > > > First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really
> > > > welcoming
> > > > > and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various ways
> > to
> > > > new
> > > > > community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are
> > responsive,
> > > > > helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the
> > > survey).
> > > > > We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer status"
> > > > (that's
> > > > > highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC
> > > members
> > > > > (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow Summits),
> > > > > workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier
> for
> > > new
> > > > > contributors to start contributing - by environment and
> documentation
> > > > > improvements.
> > > > >
> > > > > At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry.
> It's
> > > not
> > > > > super easy to join the community and you must really earn your
> status
> > > to
> > > > > become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a
> > > community
> > > > in
> > > > > enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without
> > being
> > > > > rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I
> joined
> > > the
> > > > > community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this
> > > community
> > > > > decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people
> talking
> > > at
> > > > > slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very
> > important
> > > > > lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And it
> > was
> > > > > super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
> > > > > understanding how this all works (which I did).
> > > > >
> > > > > We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced
> > > automatically,
> > > > > some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have
> expectations
> > > for
> > > > > engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to
> > > follow-up
> > > > > their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and
> engage
> > > > > committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only to
> > > > > finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing
> > things
> > > > they
> > > > > find or even improve the processes.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry. When
> > > > someone
> > > > > new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they can
> be
> > > > > valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way
> > > > community
> > > > > works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and
> expectations
> > > and
> > > > > that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we
> > expect
> > > > > those people to follow the expectations before we invite them
> further
> > > > after
> > > > > they "earned" the status. This is best described in the
> "meritocracy"
> > > > rule
> > > > > defined here:
> > > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy .
> We
> > > are
> > > > > following it really well I think.
> > > > >
> > > > > I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
> > > > > open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly well.
> > And
> > > > > I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache Software
> > > > > Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
> > > > >
> > > > > *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
> > > > >
> > > > > I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether we
> > > need
> > > > to
> > > > > do better currently at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do
> > > > something
> > > > > more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming.
> Maybe
> > we
> > > > can
> > > > > get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too
> > > > difficult?
> > > > > Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some of
> > the
> > > > > rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded do
> > not
> > > > > speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and
> they
> > > are
> > > > > afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be shouted
> > > at. I
> > > > > think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks
> great
> > > and
> > > > > when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being
> > > triggered
> > > > by
> > > > > people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
> > > > > deteriorates.
> > > > >
> > > > > The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with one
> of
> > > the
> > > > > attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the
> > > after-party.
> > > > We
> > > > > talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to
> leave
> > > the
> > > > > party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to
> > > raised a
> > > > > few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to
> > openly
> > > > > speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are
> > > valuing
> > > > > less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
> > > > )
> > > > > and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new
> > > community
> > > > > and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and he
> > had
> > > > > some really good examples for all those statements from his own
> > > > experience.
> > > > > After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him),
> > > looked
> > > > at
> > > > > our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees how
> > > > > welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns
> he
> > > has
> > > > in
> > > > > really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I
> > > thought -
> > > > > maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list,
> almost
> > > all
> > > > > the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of
> > course -
> > > > > reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe we
> > are
> > > > > (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or
> > slack
> > > > or
> > > > > reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to our
> > > > > community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a great
> > > point
> > > > > that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the
> devlist
> > or
> > > > > slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to
> > those
> > > > > people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship for
> > new
> > > > > people so that we can guide people through the first stages of
> > becoming
> > > > > contributors and navigate the way our community works?
> > > > >
> > > > > It looks like we already have people from all over the world - US,
> > > > Europe,
> > > > > India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of
> > those
> > > > > places. But maybe we could do more to get more people
> > > contributing/users
> > > > > invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China
> yet
> > > and
> > > > > not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we
> can
> > > do
> > > > > something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where we
> > had
> > > > > Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow
> :)
> > ?
> > > > > There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community at
> > the
> > > > > ApacheCon Europe few months ago
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
> > > > > on
> > > > > how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because of
> > the
> > > > > language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new
> > > contributors
> > > > > in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors
> from
> > > > there
> > > > > (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who
> has
> > > > > difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be
> > your
> > > > > local mentor for that).
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have
> > them
> > > > > immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or
> not.
> > > But
> > > > I
> > > > > wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it -
> > both
> > > > > active members of our community and those who are just listening
> and
> > > > rarely
> > > > > discuss.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue? Or
> > > maybe
> > > > > there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better
> at
> > > > being
> > > > > more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion
> > elsewhere
> > > > > (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the
> > > devlist
> > > > > can chime in ?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
> > > > >
> > > > > Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might quickly
> > > > become a
> > > > > controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so
> > let's
> > > > all
> > > > > be careful with words and statements.
> > > > >
> > > > > J.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > > >
> > > > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Tomasz Urbaszek
> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Software Engineer
> > >
> > > M: +48 505 628 493 <+48505628493>
> > > E: tomasz.urbaszek@polidea.com <to...@polidea.com>
> > >
> > > Unique Tech
> > > Check out our projects! <https://www.polidea.com/our-work>
> > >
> >
>
--
Jarek Potiuk
Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
[image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com>.
Hi Jacob,
I added the automation around Documenting all the Airflow configs. As a
next step, I am going to add documentation around each of these configs.
Will open some PRs shortly :) around this.
Regards,
Kaxil
On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 12:21 PM Jacob Ward <jw...@brandwatch.com> wrote:
> As someone who is interested in contributing, but has not been able to yet,
> I agree massively with Tomasz. There is still so much I need to understand
> about how Airflow works and pretty much everything I have learned is from
> trial and error. While I do agree that a certain amount of testing is
> helpful in understanding a technology, there is so much lacking in the
> documentation that I often resort to code diving, or worse guesswork, when
> trying to understand a new concept. This not only raises the barrier for
> entry for using Airflow and developing for Airflow, but I also feel it
> reduces my confidence in being able to commit as there is so much of the
> codebase which just seems mysterious and unknown to me.
>
> Take for example the config options. Only recently has someone made a
> documentation page which explains every option, but this itself is very
> lacking; it has no more information than the comments on the default
> airflow config file. Improving and expanding the documentation can be best
> done by those who understand Airflow the best; committers. It's a great
> investment in development as it accelerates the learning for new and
> intermediate users, who can sooner become contributing members of the
> community.
>
> Just a few thoughts that I hope will be considered.
>
> Jacob
>
> On Sun, 29 Dec 2019 at 18:50, Tomasz Urbaszek <tomasz.urbaszek@polidea.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > In my opinion we area great community but we are not "Airflow". If
> someone
> > finds us, then his or her troubles are probably solved. At least I hope
> so.
> > But last survey result includes a few really important "non-technical"
> > points:
> >
> > When onboarding new members to Airflow, what is the biggest problem?
> > - No guide on best practises on developing DAGs 51.95%
> > - Small number of tutorials on different aspects of using Airflow 18.51%
> > In your opinion, what could be improved in Airflow?
> > - Examples, how-to, onboarding documentation 46.43%
> > - Technical documentation 44.48%
> >
> > These are "users opinions" but I would also give them a +1. I think that
> to
> > encourage
> > people to contribute to Airflow we frist should encourage to use the
> tool.
> > Then,
> > when people know how to and how not to use Airflow they will be able to
> > spot real
> > bugs and groundbreaking features. A user who contributes is a great value
> > and
> > it's something we should encourage.
> >
> > Airflow is a huge project and the easier it will be to understand how it
> > works, the easier
> > it will be to contribute. After 6 months there are still things that I do
> > not fully understand.
> > I think our new website is a tremendous opportunity.
> >
> > On the other hand, I fully support the idea of meetups. I really like the
> > quite new
> > Apache Local Community[1] idea. It's something that should bring ASF and
> > OSS
> > closer to students, devs, business people and anyone who's interested.
> > Moreover,
> > it's something that will bring value to our communities because those
> > meetings
> > will be a great opportunity to exchange experiences between projects.
> >
> > T.
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/Apache+Local+Community+-+ALC
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 7:12 PM Felix Uellendall <feluelle@pm.me.invalid
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hey Jarek,
> > >
> > > I really like the points you bring up. While reading your mail I
> thought
> > > about the same things. For me at the beginning it was really hard to
> get
> > > into this community and how everything works mostly because of the
> > > language. I am not sure but maybe it would also be a good idea to
> > organize
> > > meetings in native languages first for people who do not feel
> comfortable
> > > speaking/reading/writing in English - just to help them to feel
> > > comfortable. And after they got a basic understanding of the whole
> > process
> > > of contribution and how the project works they can start learning
> English
> > > if they want to join the community.
> > >
> > > Of course English is a requirement but I think people would be more
> > > willing to improve their English if they have no other barriers left
> that
> > > are keeping them from joining this community.
> > >
> > > Felix
> > >
> > > Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 18:37, Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello everyone,
> > > >
> > > > TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being
> (even
> > > > more) welcoming community.
> > > >
> > > > It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently and
> > you
> > > > might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety of
> it.
> > > >
> > > > I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic and
> > > > mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like to
> ask
> > > > everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
> > > >
> > > > *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
> > > >
> > > > First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really
> > > welcoming
> > > > and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various ways
> to
> > > new
> > > > community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are
> responsive,
> > > > helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the
> > survey).
> > > > We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer status"
> > > (that's
> > > > highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC
> > members
> > > > (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow Summits),
> > > > workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier for
> > new
> > > > contributors to start contributing - by environment and documentation
> > > > improvements.
> > > >
> > > > At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry. It's
> > not
> > > > super easy to join the community and you must really earn your status
> > to
> > > > become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a
> > community
> > > in
> > > > enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without
> being
> > > > rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I joined
> > the
> > > > community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this
> > community
> > > > decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people talking
> > at
> > > > slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very
> important
> > > > lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And it
> was
> > > > super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
> > > > understanding how this all works (which I did).
> > > >
> > > > We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced
> > automatically,
> > > > some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have expectations
> > for
> > > > engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to
> > follow-up
> > > > their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and engage
> > > > committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only to
> > > > finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing
> things
> > > they
> > > > find or even improve the processes.
> > > >
> > > > I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry. When
> > > someone
> > > > new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they can be
> > > > valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way
> > > community
> > > > works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and expectations
> > and
> > > > that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we
> expect
> > > > those people to follow the expectations before we invite them further
> > > after
> > > > they "earned" the status. This is best described in the "meritocracy"
> > > rule
> > > > defined here:
> > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy . We
> > are
> > > > following it really well I think.
> > > >
> > > > I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
> > > > open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly well.
> And
> > > > I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache Software
> > > > Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
> > > >
> > > > *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
> > > >
> > > > I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether we
> > need
> > > to
> > > > do better currently at all.
> > > >
> > > > I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do
> > > something
> > > > more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming. Maybe
> we
> > > can
> > > > get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too
> > > difficult?
> > > > Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some of
> the
> > > > rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded do
> not
> > > > speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and they
> > are
> > > > afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be shouted
> > at. I
> > > > think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks great
> > and
> > > > when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being
> > triggered
> > > by
> > > > people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
> > > > deteriorates.
> > > >
> > > > The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with one of
> > the
> > > > attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the
> > after-party.
> > > We
> > > > talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to leave
> > the
> > > > party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to
> > raised a
> > > > few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to
> openly
> > > > speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are
> > valuing
> > > > less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
> > > )
> > > > and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new
> > community
> > > > and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and he
> had
> > > > some really good examples for all those statements from his own
> > > experience.
> > > > After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him),
> > looked
> > > at
> > > > our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees how
> > > > welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns he
> > has
> > > in
> > > > really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I
> > thought -
> > > > maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
> > > >
> > > > For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list, almost
> > all
> > > > the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of
> course -
> > > > reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe we
> are
> > > > (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or
> slack
> > > or
> > > > reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to our
> > > > community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a great
> > point
> > > > that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the devlist
> or
> > > > slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to
> those
> > > > people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship for
> new
> > > > people so that we can guide people through the first stages of
> becoming
> > > > contributors and navigate the way our community works?
> > > >
> > > > It looks like we already have people from all over the world - US,
> > > Europe,
> > > > India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of
> those
> > > > places. But maybe we could do more to get more people
> > contributing/users
> > > > invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China yet
> > and
> > > > not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we can
> > do
> > > > something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where we
> had
> > > > Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow :)
> ?
> > > > There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community at
> the
> > > > ApacheCon Europe few months ago
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
> > > > on
> > > > how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because of
> the
> > > > language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new
> > contributors
> > > > in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors from
> > > there
> > > > (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who has
> > > > difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be
> your
> > > > local mentor for that).
> > > >
> > > > I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have
> them
> > > > immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or not.
> > But
> > > I
> > > > wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it -
> both
> > > > active members of our community and those who are just listening and
> > > rarely
> > > > discuss.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue? Or
> > maybe
> > > > there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better at
> > > being
> > > > more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion
> elsewhere
> > > > (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the
> > devlist
> > > > can chime in ?
> > > >
> > > > I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
> > > >
> > > > Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might quickly
> > > become a
> > > > controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so
> let's
> > > all
> > > > be careful with words and statements.
> > > >
> > > > J.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > >
> > > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Tomasz Urbaszek
> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Software Engineer
> >
> > M: +48 505 628 493 <+48505628493>
> > E: tomasz.urbaszek@polidea.com <to...@polidea.com>
> >
> > Unique Tech
> > Check out our projects! <https://www.polidea.com/our-work>
> >
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jacob Ward <jw...@brandwatch.com>.
As someone who is interested in contributing, but has not been able to yet,
I agree massively with Tomasz. There is still so much I need to understand
about how Airflow works and pretty much everything I have learned is from
trial and error. While I do agree that a certain amount of testing is
helpful in understanding a technology, there is so much lacking in the
documentation that I often resort to code diving, or worse guesswork, when
trying to understand a new concept. This not only raises the barrier for
entry for using Airflow and developing for Airflow, but I also feel it
reduces my confidence in being able to commit as there is so much of the
codebase which just seems mysterious and unknown to me.
Take for example the config options. Only recently has someone made a
documentation page which explains every option, but this itself is very
lacking; it has no more information than the comments on the default
airflow config file. Improving and expanding the documentation can be best
done by those who understand Airflow the best; committers. It's a great
investment in development as it accelerates the learning for new and
intermediate users, who can sooner become contributing members of the
community.
Just a few thoughts that I hope will be considered.
Jacob
On Sun, 29 Dec 2019 at 18:50, Tomasz Urbaszek <to...@polidea.com>
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> In my opinion we area great community but we are not "Airflow". If someone
> finds us, then his or her troubles are probably solved. At least I hope so.
> But last survey result includes a few really important "non-technical"
> points:
>
> When onboarding new members to Airflow, what is the biggest problem?
> - No guide on best practises on developing DAGs 51.95%
> - Small number of tutorials on different aspects of using Airflow 18.51%
> In your opinion, what could be improved in Airflow?
> - Examples, how-to, onboarding documentation 46.43%
> - Technical documentation 44.48%
>
> These are "users opinions" but I would also give them a +1. I think that to
> encourage
> people to contribute to Airflow we frist should encourage to use the tool.
> Then,
> when people know how to and how not to use Airflow they will be able to
> spot real
> bugs and groundbreaking features. A user who contributes is a great value
> and
> it's something we should encourage.
>
> Airflow is a huge project and the easier it will be to understand how it
> works, the easier
> it will be to contribute. After 6 months there are still things that I do
> not fully understand.
> I think our new website is a tremendous opportunity.
>
> On the other hand, I fully support the idea of meetups. I really like the
> quite new
> Apache Local Community[1] idea. It's something that should bring ASF and
> OSS
> closer to students, devs, business people and anyone who's interested.
> Moreover,
> it's something that will bring value to our communities because those
> meetings
> will be a great opportunity to exchange experiences between projects.
>
> T.
>
> [1]
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/Apache+Local+Community+-+ALC
>
> On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 7:12 PM Felix Uellendall <fe...@pm.me.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > Hey Jarek,
> >
> > I really like the points you bring up. While reading your mail I thought
> > about the same things. For me at the beginning it was really hard to get
> > into this community and how everything works mostly because of the
> > language. I am not sure but maybe it would also be a good idea to
> organize
> > meetings in native languages first for people who do not feel comfortable
> > speaking/reading/writing in English - just to help them to feel
> > comfortable. And after they got a basic understanding of the whole
> process
> > of contribution and how the project works they can start learning English
> > if they want to join the community.
> >
> > Of course English is a requirement but I think people would be more
> > willing to improve their English if they have no other barriers left that
> > are keeping them from joining this community.
> >
> > Felix
> >
> > Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 18:37, Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > > TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being (even
> > > more) welcoming community.
> > >
> > > It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently and
> you
> > > might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety of it.
> > >
> > > I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic and
> > > mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like to ask
> > > everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
> > >
> > > *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
> > >
> > > First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really
> > welcoming
> > > and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various ways to
> > new
> > > community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are responsive,
> > > helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the
> survey).
> > > We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer status"
> > (that's
> > > highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC
> members
> > > (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow Summits),
> > > workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier for
> new
> > > contributors to start contributing - by environment and documentation
> > > improvements.
> > >
> > > At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry. It's
> not
> > > super easy to join the community and you must really earn your status
> to
> > > become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a
> community
> > in
> > > enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without being
> > > rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I joined
> the
> > > community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this
> community
> > > decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people talking
> at
> > > slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very important
> > > lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And it was
> > > super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
> > > understanding how this all works (which I did).
> > >
> > > We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced
> automatically,
> > > some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have expectations
> for
> > > engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to
> follow-up
> > > their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and engage
> > > committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only to
> > > finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing things
> > they
> > > find or even improve the processes.
> > >
> > > I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry. When
> > someone
> > > new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they can be
> > > valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way
> > community
> > > works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and expectations
> and
> > > that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we expect
> > > those people to follow the expectations before we invite them further
> > after
> > > they "earned" the status. This is best described in the "meritocracy"
> > rule
> > > defined here:
> > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy . We
> are
> > > following it really well I think.
> > >
> > > I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
> > > open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly well. And
> > > I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache Software
> > > Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
> > >
> > > *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
> > >
> > > I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether we
> need
> > to
> > > do better currently at all.
> > >
> > > I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do
> > something
> > > more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming. Maybe we
> > can
> > > get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too
> > difficult?
> > > Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some of the
> > > rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded do not
> > > speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and they
> are
> > > afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be shouted
> at. I
> > > think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks great
> and
> > > when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being
> triggered
> > by
> > > people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
> > > deteriorates.
> > >
> > > The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with one of
> the
> > > attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the
> after-party.
> > We
> > > talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to leave
> the
> > > party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to
> raised a
> > > few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to openly
> > > speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are
> valuing
> > > less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
> > >
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
> > )
> > > and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new
> community
> > > and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and he had
> > > some really good examples for all those statements from his own
> > experience.
> > > After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him),
> looked
> > at
> > > our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees how
> > > welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns he
> has
> > in
> > > really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I
> thought -
> > > maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
> > >
> > > For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list, almost
> all
> > > the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of course -
> > > reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe we are
> > > (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or slack
> > or
> > > reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to our
> > > community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a great
> point
> > > that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the devlist or
> > > slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to those
> > > people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship for new
> > > people so that we can guide people through the first stages of becoming
> > > contributors and navigate the way our community works?
> > >
> > > It looks like we already have people from all over the world - US,
> > Europe,
> > > India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of those
> > > places. But maybe we could do more to get more people
> contributing/users
> > > invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China yet
> and
> > > not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we can
> do
> > > something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where we had
> > > Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow :) ?
> > > There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community at the
> > > ApacheCon Europe few months ago
> > >
> >
> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
> > > on
> > > how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because of the
> > > language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new
> contributors
> > > in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors from
> > there
> > > (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who has
> > > difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be your
> > > local mentor for that).
> > >
> > > I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have them
> > > immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or not.
> But
> > I
> > > wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it - both
> > > active members of our community and those who are just listening and
> > rarely
> > > discuss.
> > >
> > > Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue? Or
> maybe
> > > there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better at
> > being
> > > more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion elsewhere
> > > (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the
> devlist
> > > can chime in ?
> > >
> > > I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
> > >
> > > Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might quickly
> > become a
> > > controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so let's
> > all
> > > be careful with words and statements.
> > >
> > > J.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > >
> > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Tomasz Urbaszek
> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Software Engineer
>
> M: +48 505 628 493 <+48505628493>
> E: tomasz.urbaszek@polidea.com <to...@polidea.com>
>
> Unique Tech
> Check out our projects! <https://www.polidea.com/our-work>
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Tomasz Urbaszek <to...@polidea.com>.
Hi all,
In my opinion we area great community but we are not "Airflow". If someone
finds us, then his or her troubles are probably solved. At least I hope so.
But last survey result includes a few really important "non-technical"
points:
When onboarding new members to Airflow, what is the biggest problem?
- No guide on best practises on developing DAGs 51.95%
- Small number of tutorials on different aspects of using Airflow 18.51%
In your opinion, what could be improved in Airflow?
- Examples, how-to, onboarding documentation 46.43%
- Technical documentation 44.48%
These are "users opinions" but I would also give them a +1. I think that to
encourage
people to contribute to Airflow we frist should encourage to use the tool.
Then,
when people know how to and how not to use Airflow they will be able to
spot real
bugs and groundbreaking features. A user who contributes is a great value
and
it's something we should encourage.
Airflow is a huge project and the easier it will be to understand how it
works, the easier
it will be to contribute. After 6 months there are still things that I do
not fully understand.
I think our new website is a tremendous opportunity.
On the other hand, I fully support the idea of meetups. I really like the
quite new
Apache Local Community[1] idea. It's something that should bring ASF and OSS
closer to students, devs, business people and anyone who's interested.
Moreover,
it's something that will bring value to our communities because those
meetings
will be a great opportunity to exchange experiences between projects.
T.
[1]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/Apache+Local+Community+-+ALC
On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 7:12 PM Felix Uellendall <fe...@pm.me.invalid>
wrote:
> Hey Jarek,
>
> I really like the points you bring up. While reading your mail I thought
> about the same things. For me at the beginning it was really hard to get
> into this community and how everything works mostly because of the
> language. I am not sure but maybe it would also be a good idea to organize
> meetings in native languages first for people who do not feel comfortable
> speaking/reading/writing in English - just to help them to feel
> comfortable. And after they got a basic understanding of the whole process
> of contribution and how the project works they can start learning English
> if they want to join the community.
>
> Of course English is a requirement but I think people would be more
> willing to improve their English if they have no other barriers left that
> are keeping them from joining this community.
>
> Felix
>
> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>
> On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 18:37, Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being (even
> > more) welcoming community.
> >
> > It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently and you
> > might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety of it.
> >
> > I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic and
> > mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like to ask
> > everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
> >
> > *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
> >
> > First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really
> welcoming
> > and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various ways to
> new
> > community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are responsive,
> > helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the survey).
> > We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer status"
> (that's
> > highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC members
> > (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow Summits),
> > workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier for new
> > contributors to start contributing - by environment and documentation
> > improvements.
> >
> > At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry. It's not
> > super easy to join the community and you must really earn your status to
> > become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a community
> in
> > enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without being
> > rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I joined the
> > community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this community
> > decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people talking at
> > slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very important
> > lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And it was
> > super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
> > understanding how this all works (which I did).
> >
> > We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced automatically,
> > some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have expectations for
> > engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to follow-up
> > their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and engage
> > committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only to
> > finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing things
> they
> > find or even improve the processes.
> >
> > I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry. When
> someone
> > new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they can be
> > valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way
> community
> > works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and expectations and
> > that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we expect
> > those people to follow the expectations before we invite them further
> after
> > they "earned" the status. This is best described in the "meritocracy"
> rule
> > defined here:
> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy . We are
> > following it really well I think.
> >
> > I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
> > open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly well. And
> > I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache Software
> > Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
> >
> > *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
> >
> > I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether we need
> to
> > do better currently at all.
> >
> > I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do
> something
> > more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming. Maybe we
> can
> > get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too
> difficult?
> > Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some of the
> > rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded do not
> > speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and they are
> > afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be shouted at. I
> > think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks great and
> > when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being triggered
> by
> > people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
> > deteriorates.
> >
> > The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with one of the
> > attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the after-party.
> We
> > talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to leave the
> > party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to raised a
> > few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to openly
> > speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are valuing
> > less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
> )
> > and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new community
> > and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and he had
> > some really good examples for all those statements from his own
> experience.
> > After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him), looked
> at
> > our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees how
> > welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns he has
> in
> > really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I thought -
> > maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
> >
> > For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list, almost all
> > the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of course -
> > reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe we are
> > (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or slack
> or
> > reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to our
> > community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a great point
> > that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the devlist or
> > slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to those
> > people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship for new
> > people so that we can guide people through the first stages of becoming
> > contributors and navigate the way our community works?
> >
> > It looks like we already have people from all over the world - US,
> Europe,
> > India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of those
> > places. But maybe we could do more to get more people contributing/users
> > invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China yet and
> > not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we can do
> > something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where we had
> > Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow :) ?
> > There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community at the
> > ApacheCon Europe few months ago
> >
> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
> > on
> > how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because of the
> > language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new contributors
> > in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors from
> there
> > (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who has
> > difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be your
> > local mentor for that).
> >
> > I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have them
> > immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or not. But
> I
> > wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it - both
> > active members of our community and those who are just listening and
> rarely
> > discuss.
> >
> > Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue? Or maybe
> > there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better at
> being
> > more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion elsewhere
> > (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the devlist
> > can chime in ?
> >
> > I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
> >
> > Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might quickly
> become a
> > controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so let's
> all
> > be careful with words and statements.
> >
> > J.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jarek Potiuk
> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> >
> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
--
Tomasz Urbaszek
Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Software Engineer
M: +48 505 628 493 <+48505628493>
E: tomasz.urbaszek@polidea.com <to...@polidea.com>
Unique Tech
Check out our projects! <https://www.polidea.com/our-work>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Felix Uellendall <fe...@pm.me.INVALID>.
Hey Jarek,
I really like the points you bring up. While reading your mail I thought about the same things. For me at the beginning it was really hard to get into this community and how everything works mostly because of the language. I am not sure but maybe it would also be a good idea to organize meetings in native languages first for people who do not feel comfortable speaking/reading/writing in English - just to help them to feel comfortable. And after they got a basic understanding of the whole process of contribution and how the project works they can start learning English if they want to join the community.
Of course English is a requirement but I think people would be more willing to improve their English if they have no other barriers left that are keeping them from joining this community.
Felix
Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 18:37, Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being (even
> more) welcoming community.
>
> It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently and you
> might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety of it.
>
> I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic and
> mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like to ask
> everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
>
> *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
>
> First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really welcoming
> and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various ways to new
> community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are responsive,
> helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the survey).
> We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer status" (that's
> highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC members
> (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow Summits),
> workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier for new
> contributors to start contributing - by environment and documentation
> improvements.
>
> At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry. It's not
> super easy to join the community and you must really earn your status to
> become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a community in
> enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without being
> rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I joined the
> community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this community
> decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people talking at
> slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very important
> lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And it was
> super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
> understanding how this all works (which I did).
>
> We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced automatically,
> some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have expectations for
> engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to follow-up
> their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and engage
> committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only to
> finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing things they
> find or even improve the processes.
>
> I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry. When someone
> new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they can be
> valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way community
> works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and expectations and
> that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we expect
> those people to follow the expectations before we invite them further after
> they "earned" the status. This is best described in the "meritocracy" rule
> defined here:
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy . We are
> following it really well I think.
>
> I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
> open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly well. And
> I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache Software
> Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
>
> *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
>
> I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether we need to
> do better currently at all.
>
> I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do something
> more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming. Maybe we can
> get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too difficult?
> Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some of the
> rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded do not
> speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and they are
> afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be shouted at. I
> think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks great and
> when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being triggered by
> people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
> deteriorates.
>
> The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with one of the
> attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the after-party. We
> talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to leave the
> party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to raised a
> few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to openly
> speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are valuing
> less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github)
> and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new community
> and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and he had
> some really good examples for all those statements from his own experience.
> After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him), looked at
> our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees how
> welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns he has in
> really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I thought -
> maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
>
> For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list, almost all
> the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of course -
> reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe we are
> (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or slack or
> reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to our
> community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a great point
> that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the devlist or
> slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to those
> people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship for new
> people so that we can guide people through the first stages of becoming
> contributors and navigate the way our community works?
>
> It looks like we already have people from all over the world - US, Europe,
> India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of those
> places. But maybe we could do more to get more people contributing/users
> invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China yet and
> not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we can do
> something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where we had
> Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow :) ?
> There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community at the
> ApacheCon Europe few months ago
> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
> on
> how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because of the
> language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new contributors
> in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors from there
> (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who has
> difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be your
> local mentor for that).
>
> I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have them
> immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or not. But I
> wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it - both
> active members of our community and those who are just listening and rarely
> discuss.
>
> Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue? Or maybe
> there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better at being
> more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion elsewhere
> (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the devlist
> can chime in ?
>
> I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
>
> Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might quickly become a
> controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so let's all
> be careful with words and statements.
>
> J.
>
> --
>
> Jarek Potiuk
> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>
> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy <ai...@apache.org>.
It is a very important topic that you bring up, Jarek.
I agree that one of the biggest barriers to joining the community is a
physiological safety and language barrier. And as a baby step into becoming
a more welcoming community, we can run meetups in local languages to
encourage more participation from the local community.
I am also curious about reaching out to our community members in China, and
ask how we can support them better, what would encourage more
participation, etc.
On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 3:50 AM Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
wrote:
> Here is the signup link: https://apache-airflow-slack.herokuapp.com/
>
> czw., 2 sty 2020, 11:59 użytkownik Klaus <cl...@yahoo.it.invalid>
> napisał:
>
> > Hello all,a slack administrator can send to me te invitation for the
> > channel?
> > Thank you very much.Have a nice day
> > Il mercoledì 1 gennaio 2020, 00:26:08 CET, Jarek Potiuk <
> > jarek.potiuk@polidea.com> ha scritto:
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 7:24 PM Ry Walker <ry...@rywalker.com> wrote:
> >
> > > We should add Slack (sign up form) to
> > > https://airflow.apache.org/community/ since it really is the easiest
> > > entry point to the community. Mailing lists do feel old school, but
> it's
> > > standard operating procedure for Apache projects so it's not horrible
> for
> > > new people to get some experience with them.>>>>
> > >
> >
> > Ry - I created a PR https://github.com/apache/airflow-site/pull/229
> >
> > BTW. I am not sure if everyone is aware of that - ANYBODY can make a PR
> to
> > the website :). So if you have an idea what to improve - feel free and
> make
> > a PR!
> >
> > J.
> >
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
Here is the signup link: https://apache-airflow-slack.herokuapp.com/
czw., 2 sty 2020, 11:59 użytkownik Klaus <cl...@yahoo.it.invalid>
napisał:
> Hello all,a slack administrator can send to me te invitation for the
> channel?
> Thank you very much.Have a nice day
> Il mercoledì 1 gennaio 2020, 00:26:08 CET, Jarek Potiuk <
> jarek.potiuk@polidea.com> ha scritto:
>
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 7:24 PM Ry Walker <ry...@rywalker.com> wrote:
>
> > We should add Slack (sign up form) to
> > https://airflow.apache.org/community/ since it really is the easiest
> > entry point to the community. Mailing lists do feel old school, but it's
> > standard operating procedure for Apache projects so it's not horrible for
> > new people to get some experience with them.>>>>
> >
>
> Ry - I created a PR https://github.com/apache/airflow-site/pull/229
>
> BTW. I am not sure if everyone is aware of that - ANYBODY can make a PR to
> the website :). So if you have an idea what to improve - feel free and make
> a PR!
>
> J.
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Klaus <cl...@yahoo.it.INVALID>.
Hello all,a slack administrator can send to me te invitation for the channel?
Thank you very much.Have a nice day
Il mercoledì 1 gennaio 2020, 00:26:08 CET, Jarek Potiuk <ja...@polidea.com> ha scritto:
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 7:24 PM Ry Walker <ry...@rywalker.com> wrote:
> We should add Slack (sign up form) to
> https://airflow.apache.org/community/ since it really is the easiest
> entry point to the community. Mailing lists do feel old school, but it's
> standard operating procedure for Apache projects so it's not horrible for
> new people to get some experience with them.>>>>
>
Ry - I created a PR https://github.com/apache/airflow-site/pull/229
BTW. I am not sure if everyone is aware of that - ANYBODY can make a PR to
the website :). So if you have an idea what to improve - feel free and make
a PR!
J.
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 7:24 PM Ry Walker <ry...@rywalker.com> wrote:
> We should add Slack (sign up form) to
> https://airflow.apache.org/community/ since it really is the easiest
> entry point to the community. Mailing lists do feel old school, but it's
> standard operating procedure for Apache projects so it's not horrible for
> new people to get some experience with them.>>>>
>
Ry - I created a PR https://github.com/apache/airflow-site/pull/229
BTW. I am not sure if everyone is aware of that - ANYBODY can make a PR to
the website :). So if you have an idea what to improve - feel free and make
a PR!
J.
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Ry Walker <ry...@rywalker.com>.
We should add Slack (sign up form) to https://airflow.apache.org/community/ since it really is the easiest entry point to the community. Mailing lists do feel old school, but it's standard operating procedure for Apache projects so it's not horrible for new people to get some experience with them.
Sent via Superhuman ( https://sprh.mn/?vip=ry@rywalker.com )
On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 4:21 PM, Anton Zayniev < anton.zayniev@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>
>
> I think we still can make mailing lists less confusing for newcomers.
> There are proprietary software (like the one Zendesk is using) that parses
> email content into meaningful threads somewhat similar to Facebook
> comments. Probably there are open source solutions. Quick googling brought
> me this one https:/ / github. com/ achyudh/ mailing-list-analyzer (
> https://github.com/achyudh/mailing-list-analyzer ) , but looks like it is
> already abandoned. Maybe somebody knows mail parsers that are currently
> alive.
> Anton
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 30, 2019, 15:56 Jarek Potiuk < Jarek. Potiuk@ polidea. com (
> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com ) > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Yeah. +1 to what Kaxil said. But I see your point Anton as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mailing list communication is really the "fundament" of Apache Software
>> Foundation projects.
>>
>>
>>
>> While I understand your pain, there is a strong reasoning behind it - and
>> it might be difficult to change. It's not only indexing but also assuring
>> that the history is available, is not moderated by a third party and
>> accessible by everyone (now and in the future) and universally available
>> without any extra non-standard software. See "Open Communication"
>> description in "The Apache Way". Mailing lists are specifically mentioned
>> there as the only allowed "official" communication channel: https:/ / www.
>> apache. org/ theapacheway/ ( https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/ ).
>> Also quote from there - "Private decisions on code, policies, or project
>> direction are disallowed; off-list discourse and transactions must be
>> brought on-list.". That's pretty foundational for any ASF project. And our
>> devlist archive is rather easily available and archived: https:/ / lists. apache.
>> org/ list. html?dev@ airflow. apache. org (
>> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org )
>>
>>
>>
>> What we often do is we have some initial discussion here, then move to
>> slack where we create Special Interest Groups for ad-hoc communication
>> with interested people and then make sure that whatever comes up from
>> those discussions is communicated here or in the Airflow Improvement
>> Proposal.
>>
>>
>>
>> Side note - I attended a talk at ApacheCon where two people sitting next
>> to-each other were the only initial contributors at incubation phase and
>> they forced themselves to communicate via the devlist to make it more
>> transparent and publicly accessible by everyone.
>>
>>
>>
>> However this is a topic that I think we should often bring at the ASF
>> level
>> (ASF infrastructure and ASF board). I think it might be the right time to
>> come up with a solution that will be as open and transparent, and as
>> universally available as email interface is.
>> I agree that it's not a pleasant experience - especially for people who
>> are not used to e-mail and a bit old-fashioned "mail etiquette". I hear
>> that complaint often and I agree we should work on a better solution.
>> There are open-source alternatives - for example https:/ / mattermost. com/
>> ( https://mattermost.com/ ) which can be
>> self-hosted. But it would require quite some infrastructure effort from
>> ASF to provide it for free to all the projects I am afraid - so I would
>> not count on having it quickly - unfortunately.
>>
>>
>>
>> On the brighter side - maybe that's also an interesting point to raise and
>> to add some small "mail etiquette/usage" training to our "First time
>> Contributor Workshops" ? Once you start using mail and manage the way how
>> to quote stuff etc, it's not as bad :)
>>
>>
>>
>> J.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 3:13 PM Kaxil Naik < kaxilnaik@ gmail. com (
>> kaxilnaik@gmail.com ) > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We also have Airflow Slack : https:/ / apache-airflow-slack. herokuapp. com/
>>> ( https://apache-airflow-slack.herokuapp.com/ )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The reason why we also having mailing list is slack messages are not
>>> indexed by Google or other search engines.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 2:11 PM Anton Zayniev < anton. zayniev@ gmail. com
>>> ( anton.zayniev@gmail.com ) > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm fairly new to Airflow community and I'd like to share my main
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> struggle.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mailing lists is very hard to onboard: there is no easy available
>>>> discussion archives (clicking for every new message seems weird); it is
>>>> hard to respond to particular mail; you can not easily unfollow
>>>> non-relevant discussions; you can't edit your previous message. Also
>>>> mailing lists feels outdated.
>>>> I think we could be much friendlier to newcomers if we move our main
>>>> discussions to more modern service like slack. It's free tier a little
>>>> clunky, but maybe there are non-commercial tiers. If not there are
>>>> alternatives like gitter, etc. Probably anything would be friendly then
>>>> mail list.
>>>> Anton.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Dec 29, 2019, 18:37 Jarek Potiuk < Jarek. Potiuk@ polidea. com (
>>>> Jarek.Potiuk@polidea.com ) >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> (even
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> more) welcoming community.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> you
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> it.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic and
>>>>> mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ask
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> welcoming
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various ways
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> to
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> new
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> responsive,
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> survey).
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer status"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (that's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> members
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow Summits),
>>>>> workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier for
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> new
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> contributors to start contributing - by environment and documentation
>>>>> improvements.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry. It's
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> not
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> super easy to join the community and you must really earn your status
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> community
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> being
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I joined
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> community
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people talking
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> at
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> important
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And it
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> was
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
>>>>> understanding how this all works (which I did).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> automatically,
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have expectations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> for
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> follow-up
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and engage
>>>>> committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only to
>>>>> finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> things
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> they
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> find or even improve the processes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry. When
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> someone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they can be
>>>>> valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> community
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and expectations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> expect
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> those people to follow the expectations before we invite them further
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> after
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> they "earned" the status. This is best described in the "meritocracy"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> rule
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> defined here:
>>>>> https:/ / www. apache. org/ foundation/ how-it-works. html#meritocracy (
>>>>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy ). We
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> are
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> following it really well I think.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
>>>>> open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache Software
>>>>> Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether we
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> need
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> do better currently at all.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> something
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming. Maybe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> we
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> can
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> difficult?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> the
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded do
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> not
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and they
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> are
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be shouted
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> at. I
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks great
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> triggered
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> by
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
>>>>> deteriorates.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with one of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> after-party.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to leave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> raised a
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> openly
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> valuing
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https:/ / www. theguardian. com/ technology/ 2016/ feb/ 12/ women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
>> (
>> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
>> )
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> )
>>>>> and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> community
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and he
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> had
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> some really good examples for all those statements from his own
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> experience.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him),
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> looked
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees how
>>>>> welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns he
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> has
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> thought -
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list, almost
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> all
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> course -
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe we
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> are
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> slack
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to our
>>>>> community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a great
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> point
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the devlist
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> or
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> those
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship for
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> new
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> people so that we can guide people through the first stages of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> becoming
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> contributors and navigate the way our community works?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It looks like we already have people from all over the world - US,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Europe,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> those
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> places. But maybe we could do more to get more people
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> contributing/users
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China yet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> can
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> do
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where we
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> had
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community at
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> the
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ApacheCon Europe few months ago
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https:/ / aceu19. apachecon. com/ session/ inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
>> (
>> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
>> )
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> on
>>>>> how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> the
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> contributors
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors from
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> there
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who has
>>>>> difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> your
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> local mentor for that).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> them
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or not.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> both
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> active members of our community and those who are just listening and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> rarely
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> discuss.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue? Or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> maybe
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better at
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> being
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> elsewhere
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> devlist
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> can chime in ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might quickly
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> become a
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> let's
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> all
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> be careful with words and statements.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> J.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jarek Potiuk
>>>>> Polidea < https:/ / www. polidea. com/ ( https://www.polidea.com/ ) > |
>>>>> Principal Software Engineer
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
>>>>> [image: Polidea] < https:/ / www. polidea. com/ ( https://www.polidea.com/
>>>>> ) >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Jarek Potiuk
>> Polidea < https:/ / www. polidea. com/ ( https://www.polidea.com/ ) > |
>> Principal Software Engineer
>>
>>
>>
>> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
>> [image: Polidea] < https:/ / www. polidea. com/ ( https://www.polidea.com/
>> ) >
>>
>>
>
>
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com>.
P.S. I'm ready to help, but don't know how.
On Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 16:48 Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To make things clear -- I don't have strong opinion that slack is better.
> I just like to address initial thoughts of newcomer-developer. Since the
> dev world communication is currently very slack-oriented, I use it as a
> main reference. I see the point that dev list is probably better and mostly
> agree. But currently it is too hard to understand it. I think it is
> important to change current state, that sounds like "love it or leave it"
> unless you have spent enough time to understand why it is not. Since this
> is Apache-way we can probably take some best practices from other projects,
> or invent ours and spread it to the Apache community.
> Anton
>
> On 2020/01/11 22:28:31, Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > To answer your questions Anton,
> >
> > Slack is good for quick communication and for user-queries but not great
> > for Dev communication.
> >
> > One of the very recent examples was of recent AIP discussions about
> > Reschedule Operators (or Async Operators). I missed the "group creation"
> on
> > Slack for that SIG (Special Interest Group) as Slack already has 100s if
> > not more messages daily and hence also missed the informal meeting which
> I
> > (and other users like me) would have loved to be a part of.
> >
> > It is not easy to keep up with the messages over on Slack. We currently
> > have more than ~4600 users on Slack and it is mostly used as a
> > faster-alternative of StackOverflow.
> > As the original creator of our Slack Workspace with Sid, the original
> idea
> > was to use it as a medium for users to gets their doubts cleared from
> > committers and other fellow users.
> > We also have a "how-to-pr" and "development" channels for users who need
> > some assistance or sometimes what the PR tests to be restarted.
> >
> > But it is definitely not a drop-in replacement for the dev-list where
> there
> > are talks about architectural design, Roadmap discussion going on. You
> can
> > argue that we could use a Slack
> > channel to do that, however, once an email is sent to the dev list it is
> > public and for everyone to see, Slack is a messaging platform, hence
> users
> > can delete the messages for whatever reason.
> >
> > I can add more documentation in Contributing.rst to explain which medium
> > should be used.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kaxil
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 10:08 PM Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > That was me, got mixed my mail accounts.
> > > Regarding problem 4: probably we should explain to newcomers not only
> how
> > > to use dev lists, but also why we use it. Dev list was just a weird
> legacy
> > > solution until I've heard about Apache requirements and SE indexing .
> > >
> > > Anton
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 00:43 A Z <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > 1. I don't mind asynchronous communication. I love it too because it
> > > > provides more meaningful discussions. You don't have to hurry to
> answer
> > > and
> > > > can give you some time to organize your thoughts. Although sometimes
> > > you'd
> > > > like to make it quick (e.g. hotfixing that requires >1 ppl).
> Slack/Gitter
> > > > provides you an opportunity for both quick/slow communication. Email
> is
> > > > very bad for quick replies. That limitation is the thing I'd like to
> get
> > > > rid of.
> > > >
> > > > 2. I've tried Pony Mail. Currently, I'm using it. It is way better
> than
> > > > usual Gmail interface (I use it for 10+ years with short pause when I
> > > > switch to Inbox), but there are still huge disadvantages:
> > > > a) I can't quote particular sentence to address it
> > > > b) There is no way of structuring your text (like bulleting,
> > > underscoring,
> > > > indentation, etc). Yes, I know I can use it in the Gmail web client,
> but
> > > It
> > > > is way harder to navigate there.
> > > > c) No threads. Every discussion tends to split into different
> branches,
> > > so
> > > > it is nice to be able to join one of the threads ignoring the whole
> > > > discussion (or vice-versa).
> > > > d) Reply window just holds half of my screen. I have to close it to
> > > reread
> > > > some points in the discussion.
> > > > e) A lot of niche things that I get used to (like polls, images,
> etc).
> > > > They're not that crucial but make communication easier.
> > > > f) I still have a cluttered inbox, hence all the discussions arrive
> > > there.
> > > > Yes, I can create smart filters, but it still needs some effort.
> > > >
> > > > 3. Yes, mobile device is a problem. Mailing lists on mobile are still
> > > just
> > > > Gmail client which is horrible for that kind of discussion.
> > > >
> > > > 4. And now my biggest concern: for the majority of users joining to
> mail
> > > > list sounds like an invite to MySpace. It is easier to skip the
> community
> > > > then make an effort into understanding how devlists do work. I think
> the
> > > > main problem is not the struggle of existing users but the number of
> > > > developers who skipped conversation being afraid of the unfamiliar
> > > > messaging tool.
> > > >
> > > > On 2019/12/31 23:22:43, Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > I had some discussion today and I'd love to get some more insight
> > > (@Anton
> > > > > Zayniev and others). I think about spending some of my time next
> year
> > > on
> > > > > Apache-general projects so that might be one I might put some
> effort
> > > > into.
> > > > > So I would love to learn more.
> > > > > Anton - I would love to run an experiment with you. Would you like
> to
> > > try
> > > > > to use the
> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org
> > > to
> > > > > respond to that email - quoting relevant parts etc. ?
> > > > >
> > > > > - What I really love about email interface is the built-in
> > > > asynchronous
> > > > > communication (thus slowness). I never expect response
> immediately,
> > > > nor
> > > > > provide one. I think this is deeply embedded in the whole Apache
> > > Way.
> > > > > People in Apache projects are all over the world, have different
> > > > > schedules/time zones and responding after some time is OK and
> > > > expected.
> > > > > This is why we gave 72 hrs of voting time for example. Is this
> > > > > something that bothers people who do not like mail interface
> > > (Anton?)
> > > > is
> > > > > your expectation about immediacy of communication?
> > > > > - The UI/interface - have you (Anton and others) used
> > > > > https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org ?
> like
> > > > > "log-in" and use it as mail sending interface? Not that
> different
> > > from
> > > > > Gmail/Other web interfaces. I am using Gmail for like 12 years
> now
> > > as
> > > > my
> > > > > only email interface (no clients whatsoever) and never looked
> back
> > > > after
> > > > > switching. Maybe you simply don't realise how comfortable and
> useful
> > > > it is
> > > > > to use web interface for writing emails or messages?
> > > > > - Or maybe the problem is mobile devices?
> > > > > - I think once you learn how to start new threads, comments with
> > > > quoting
> > > > > etc, mailing list is pretty useful. I don't think slack is much
> > > > better in
> > > > > it to be honest. What are the most annoying things that bother
> you
> > > > Anton
> > > > > with those?
> > > > >
> > > > > J.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com>.
To make things clear -- I don't have strong opinion that slack is better. I just like to address initial thoughts of newcomer-developer. Since the dev world communication is currently very slack-oriented, I use it as a main reference. I see the point that dev list is probably better and mostly agree. But currently it is too hard to understand it. I think it is important to change current state, that sounds like "love it or leave it" unless you have spent enough time to understand why it is not. Since this is Apache-way we can probably take some best practices from other projects, or invent ours and spread it to the Apache community.
Anton
On 2020/01/11 22:28:31, Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To answer your questions Anton,
>
> Slack is good for quick communication and for user-queries but not great
> for Dev communication.
>
> One of the very recent examples was of recent AIP discussions about
> Reschedule Operators (or Async Operators). I missed the "group creation" on
> Slack for that SIG (Special Interest Group) as Slack already has 100s if
> not more messages daily and hence also missed the informal meeting which I
> (and other users like me) would have loved to be a part of.
>
> It is not easy to keep up with the messages over on Slack. We currently
> have more than ~4600 users on Slack and it is mostly used as a
> faster-alternative of StackOverflow.
> As the original creator of our Slack Workspace with Sid, the original idea
> was to use it as a medium for users to gets their doubts cleared from
> committers and other fellow users.
> We also have a "how-to-pr" and "development" channels for users who need
> some assistance or sometimes what the PR tests to be restarted.
>
> But it is definitely not a drop-in replacement for the dev-list where there
> are talks about architectural design, Roadmap discussion going on. You can
> argue that we could use a Slack
> channel to do that, however, once an email is sent to the dev list it is
> public and for everyone to see, Slack is a messaging platform, hence users
> can delete the messages for whatever reason.
>
> I can add more documentation in Contributing.rst to explain which medium
> should be used.
>
> Regards,
> Kaxil
>
> On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 10:08 PM Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > That was me, got mixed my mail accounts.
> > Regarding problem 4: probably we should explain to newcomers not only how
> > to use dev lists, but also why we use it. Dev list was just a weird legacy
> > solution until I've heard about Apache requirements and SE indexing .
> >
> > Anton
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 00:43 A Z <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > 1. I don't mind asynchronous communication. I love it too because it
> > > provides more meaningful discussions. You don't have to hurry to answer
> > and
> > > can give you some time to organize your thoughts. Although sometimes
> > you'd
> > > like to make it quick (e.g. hotfixing that requires >1 ppl). Slack/Gitter
> > > provides you an opportunity for both quick/slow communication. Email is
> > > very bad for quick replies. That limitation is the thing I'd like to get
> > > rid of.
> > >
> > > 2. I've tried Pony Mail. Currently, I'm using it. It is way better than
> > > usual Gmail interface (I use it for 10+ years with short pause when I
> > > switch to Inbox), but there are still huge disadvantages:
> > > a) I can't quote particular sentence to address it
> > > b) There is no way of structuring your text (like bulleting,
> > underscoring,
> > > indentation, etc). Yes, I know I can use it in the Gmail web client, but
> > It
> > > is way harder to navigate there.
> > > c) No threads. Every discussion tends to split into different branches,
> > so
> > > it is nice to be able to join one of the threads ignoring the whole
> > > discussion (or vice-versa).
> > > d) Reply window just holds half of my screen. I have to close it to
> > reread
> > > some points in the discussion.
> > > e) A lot of niche things that I get used to (like polls, images, etc).
> > > They're not that crucial but make communication easier.
> > > f) I still have a cluttered inbox, hence all the discussions arrive
> > there.
> > > Yes, I can create smart filters, but it still needs some effort.
> > >
> > > 3. Yes, mobile device is a problem. Mailing lists on mobile are still
> > just
> > > Gmail client which is horrible for that kind of discussion.
> > >
> > > 4. And now my biggest concern: for the majority of users joining to mail
> > > list sounds like an invite to MySpace. It is easier to skip the community
> > > then make an effort into understanding how devlists do work. I think the
> > > main problem is not the struggle of existing users but the number of
> > > developers who skipped conversation being afraid of the unfamiliar
> > > messaging tool.
> > >
> > > On 2019/12/31 23:22:43, Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
> > > > I had some discussion today and I'd love to get some more insight
> > (@Anton
> > > > Zayniev and others). I think about spending some of my time next year
> > on
> > > > Apache-general projects so that might be one I might put some effort
> > > into.
> > > > So I would love to learn more.
> > > > Anton - I would love to run an experiment with you. Would you like to
> > try
> > > > to use the https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org
> > to
> > > > respond to that email - quoting relevant parts etc. ?
> > > >
> > > > - What I really love about email interface is the built-in
> > > asynchronous
> > > > communication (thus slowness). I never expect response immediately,
> > > nor
> > > > provide one. I think this is deeply embedded in the whole Apache
> > Way.
> > > > People in Apache projects are all over the world, have different
> > > > schedules/time zones and responding after some time is OK and
> > > expected.
> > > > This is why we gave 72 hrs of voting time for example. Is this
> > > > something that bothers people who do not like mail interface
> > (Anton?)
> > > is
> > > > your expectation about immediacy of communication?
> > > > - The UI/interface - have you (Anton and others) used
> > > > https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org ? like
> > > > "log-in" and use it as mail sending interface? Not that different
> > from
> > > > Gmail/Other web interfaces. I am using Gmail for like 12 years now
> > as
> > > my
> > > > only email interface (no clients whatsoever) and never looked back
> > > after
> > > > switching. Maybe you simply don't realise how comfortable and useful
> > > it is
> > > > to use web interface for writing emails or messages?
> > > > - Or maybe the problem is mobile devices?
> > > > - I think once you learn how to start new threads, comments with
> > > quoting
> > > > etc, mailing list is pretty useful. I don't think slack is much
> > > better in
> > > > it to be honest. What are the most annoying things that bother you
> > > Anton
> > > > with those?
> > > >
> > > > J.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
Great discussion!
Kaxil:
One of the very recent examples was of recent AIP discussions about
> Reschedule Operators (or Async Operators). I missed the "group creation" on
> Slack for that SIG (Special Interest Group) as Slack already has 100s if
> not more messages daily and hence also missed the informal meeting which I
> (and other users like me) would have loved to be a part of.
>
Indeed that's a very good example where things can get missing-in-action.
When we get too used to quick communication on slack - these things happen.
And it happens even to people who are used to mail communication, so I
understand it might be a "natural" thing to do by someone whose
primary/first communication media is slack.
> But it is definitely not a drop-in replacement for the dev-list where there
> are talks about architectural design, Roadmap discussion going on. You can
> argue that we could use a Slack
> channel to do that, however, once an email is sent to the dev list it is
> public and for everyone to see, Slack is a messaging platform, hence users
> can delete the messages for whatever reason.
>
Yes. I think the last part is very important. I think this requirement
"what's being said is being said forever" is super important and kind of
contradicts with one of the earlier basic problems with email mentioned by
Anton ("you can't edit your previous message"). And I think it's an
important property of official communication media for the project. It
means that you have to be really conscious when writing your message, you
cannot modify the original wording and spelling mistakes. That makes it
simply slower and more deliberate.
I can add more documentation in Contributing.rst to explain which medium
> should be used.
>
We should indeed! Thank Kaxil! I am happy to cooperate on a PR on that and
add what I think is relevant. I also added (for now I left TODO) page in
the "First time Contributor's workshop" presentation template at
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/AIRFLOW/First+time+contributor%27s+workshop
and
I will bring the content of what we agree in CONTRIBUTING.rst to the
presentation and workshop that we are going to have. I hope to be able to
run at least 4 or 5 such workshops in the first half of 2020 and I think it
is important to mention result of this discussion to the
first-time-contributors. Also that should include some of the "how to use
email" because I think people simply do not know that they can use email to
achieve some of the things Anton mentioned quite easily using email
interface (see below).
Anton:
> > That was me, got mixed my mail accounts.
> > Regarding problem 4: probably we should explain to newcomers not only how
> > to use dev lists, but also why we use it. Dev list was just a weird
> legacy
> > solution until I've heard about Apache requirements and SE indexing .
>
Absolutely (and see above!)/ I think this is the most important result of
the discussion so far - that we need to explain more why devlist is so
important and that it's not just a legacy. Maybe we should also mention the
Pony mail as a tool that you can use to make it easier (even if just a bit).
> > Although sometimes
> > you'd
> > > like to make it quick (e.g. hotfixing that requires >1 ppl).
> Slack/Gitter
> > > provides you an opportunity for both quick/slow communication. Email is
> > > very bad for quick replies. That limitation is the thing I'd like to
> get
> > > rid of.
Slack is better for quick replies. And we already have it :)
I think we can explain that in the "communication" section of
CONTRIBUTING.rst about when to use which media.
> > > a) I can't quote particular sentence to address it
Actually - you can. This is what I am doing right now (using Gmail but I
checked it works with Pony as well).
I think we should make it part of our workshop to teach people a bit how to
use emails for that efficiently. In devlist responses, the best thing you
can do is to hit reply, and navigate down the response, delete what is not
relevant leave only the parts you want to respond to and interleave your
answers with the original quotes. I think it works really, really well once
you learn that this is the "email way". Most of good mailers understand
that - for example in Gmail it uses different colours for the quotes and
you see nicely what part of the message you are responding to. You can even
respond to several people in the same message (that's what I am doing now!)
> > b) There is no way of structuring your text (like bulleting,
> > underscoring,
> > > indentation, etc). Yes, I know I can use it in the Gmail web client,
> but
> > It
> > > is way harder to navigate there.
>
There are some markdown standards that we are pretty used to and I think it
works pretty well when you have a good mailer to provide both HTML/TXT
version of your mail. However, maybe that's something we could contribute
to PonyMail as well - just add some basic formatting/structure helpers to
format the message?.
Bullet list example:
* one
* two
* three
> > > c) No threads. Every discussion tends to split into different branches,
> > so
> > > it is nice to be able to join one of the threads ignoring the whole
> > > discussion (or vice-versa).
>
I think this actually threading is much worse for Slack etc. than it is for
emails. It's common to do "thread hijacking" in Slack as well as in email
and it's a matter of people not the tool. I'd actually argue it's much
easier to manage threads in email/devlist than it is in slack. The threads
in email are even better because they are named (by subject). There is
nothing wrong with replying to message and changing the subject - this will
create a new thread. It's even better if you can combine it with quoting as
mentioned above. Because you can delete irrelevant parts and only quote the
parts that you want to refer to from the original thread.
> > > d) Reply window just holds half of my screen. I have to close it to
> > reread
> > > some points in the discussion.
>
Typically what I do is I go down the message and delete irrelevant parts
and respond to those that are important. Then you can see what you are
responding to immediately next to your response. Of course there is often
an earlier message you want to refer to, but you can always open another
browser window with it. Not perfect. I know. But maybe again - that's an
opportunity to contribute and make PonyMail interface a bit better :).
> > > e) A lot of niche things that I get used to (like polls, images, etc).
> > > They're not that crucial but make communication easier.
And emoticons of course :). I like those too. There email interface is
clearly behind. But we still can use slack for those, leaving devlist for a
bit more "formal" communication. You can still interleave some of the stuff
with your message though. A little bit more involved but if you really want
it can work (for some people at least)
[image: source.gif]
> > > f) I still have a cluttered inbox, hence all the discussions arrive
> > there.
> > > Yes, I can create smart filters, but it still needs some effort.
> > >
>
Yes. It does. But I think it's even worse in slack (especially if we are
really for the "deliberate, slow, well thought discussion". In email at
least you have named threads to follow.
> > > 3. Yes, mobile device is a problem. Mailing lists on mobile are still
> > just
> > > Gmail client which is horrible for that kind of discussion.
>
I am not sure why it's such horrible :). I actually respond to many emails
from the phone using gmail app and I find it pretty OK (providing that I
use the quoting/deleting pattern I mentioned above).
> > 4. And now my biggest concern: for the majority of users joining to
> mail
> > > list sounds like an invite to MySpace. It is easier to skip the
> community
> > > then make an effort into understanding how devlists do work. I think
> the
> > > main problem is not the struggle of existing users but the number of
> > > developers who skipped conversation being afraid of the unfamiliar
> > > messaging tool.
>
I understand that point, but I think what we can do is to educate people
(on slack/workshops/CONTRIBUTING) and tell them why it is important to use
devlist. Maybe we should also create a separate channel on slack
(#how-to-communicate) next to the existing (#how-to-pr) and provide people
with some useful help and mentoring about communicating in the community? I
am happy to be part of this :).
--
Jarek Potiuk
Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
[image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com>.
To answer your questions Anton,
Slack is good for quick communication and for user-queries but not great
for Dev communication.
One of the very recent examples was of recent AIP discussions about
Reschedule Operators (or Async Operators). I missed the "group creation" on
Slack for that SIG (Special Interest Group) as Slack already has 100s if
not more messages daily and hence also missed the informal meeting which I
(and other users like me) would have loved to be a part of.
It is not easy to keep up with the messages over on Slack. We currently
have more than ~4600 users on Slack and it is mostly used as a
faster-alternative of StackOverflow.
As the original creator of our Slack Workspace with Sid, the original idea
was to use it as a medium for users to gets their doubts cleared from
committers and other fellow users.
We also have a "how-to-pr" and "development" channels for users who need
some assistance or sometimes what the PR tests to be restarted.
But it is definitely not a drop-in replacement for the dev-list where there
are talks about architectural design, Roadmap discussion going on. You can
argue that we could use a Slack
channel to do that, however, once an email is sent to the dev list it is
public and for everyone to see, Slack is a messaging platform, hence users
can delete the messages for whatever reason.
I can add more documentation in Contributing.rst to explain which medium
should be used.
Regards,
Kaxil
On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 10:08 PM Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> That was me, got mixed my mail accounts.
> Regarding problem 4: probably we should explain to newcomers not only how
> to use dev lists, but also why we use it. Dev list was just a weird legacy
> solution until I've heard about Apache requirements and SE indexing .
>
> Anton
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 00:43 A Z <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 1. I don't mind asynchronous communication. I love it too because it
> > provides more meaningful discussions. You don't have to hurry to answer
> and
> > can give you some time to organize your thoughts. Although sometimes
> you'd
> > like to make it quick (e.g. hotfixing that requires >1 ppl). Slack/Gitter
> > provides you an opportunity for both quick/slow communication. Email is
> > very bad for quick replies. That limitation is the thing I'd like to get
> > rid of.
> >
> > 2. I've tried Pony Mail. Currently, I'm using it. It is way better than
> > usual Gmail interface (I use it for 10+ years with short pause when I
> > switch to Inbox), but there are still huge disadvantages:
> > a) I can't quote particular sentence to address it
> > b) There is no way of structuring your text (like bulleting,
> underscoring,
> > indentation, etc). Yes, I know I can use it in the Gmail web client, but
> It
> > is way harder to navigate there.
> > c) No threads. Every discussion tends to split into different branches,
> so
> > it is nice to be able to join one of the threads ignoring the whole
> > discussion (or vice-versa).
> > d) Reply window just holds half of my screen. I have to close it to
> reread
> > some points in the discussion.
> > e) A lot of niche things that I get used to (like polls, images, etc).
> > They're not that crucial but make communication easier.
> > f) I still have a cluttered inbox, hence all the discussions arrive
> there.
> > Yes, I can create smart filters, but it still needs some effort.
> >
> > 3. Yes, mobile device is a problem. Mailing lists on mobile are still
> just
> > Gmail client which is horrible for that kind of discussion.
> >
> > 4. And now my biggest concern: for the majority of users joining to mail
> > list sounds like an invite to MySpace. It is easier to skip the community
> > then make an effort into understanding how devlists do work. I think the
> > main problem is not the struggle of existing users but the number of
> > developers who skipped conversation being afraid of the unfamiliar
> > messaging tool.
> >
> > On 2019/12/31 23:22:43, Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
> > > I had some discussion today and I'd love to get some more insight
> (@Anton
> > > Zayniev and others). I think about spending some of my time next year
> on
> > > Apache-general projects so that might be one I might put some effort
> > into.
> > > So I would love to learn more.
> > > Anton - I would love to run an experiment with you. Would you like to
> try
> > > to use the https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org
> to
> > > respond to that email - quoting relevant parts etc. ?
> > >
> > > - What I really love about email interface is the built-in
> > asynchronous
> > > communication (thus slowness). I never expect response immediately,
> > nor
> > > provide one. I think this is deeply embedded in the whole Apache
> Way.
> > > People in Apache projects are all over the world, have different
> > > schedules/time zones and responding after some time is OK and
> > expected.
> > > This is why we gave 72 hrs of voting time for example. Is this
> > > something that bothers people who do not like mail interface
> (Anton?)
> > is
> > > your expectation about immediacy of communication?
> > > - The UI/interface - have you (Anton and others) used
> > > https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org ? like
> > > "log-in" and use it as mail sending interface? Not that different
> from
> > > Gmail/Other web interfaces. I am using Gmail for like 12 years now
> as
> > my
> > > only email interface (no clients whatsoever) and never looked back
> > after
> > > switching. Maybe you simply don't realise how comfortable and useful
> > it is
> > > to use web interface for writing emails or messages?
> > > - Or maybe the problem is mobile devices?
> > > - I think once you learn how to start new threads, comments with
> > quoting
> > > etc, mailing list is pretty useful. I don't think slack is much
> > better in
> > > it to be honest. What are the most annoying things that bother you
> > Anton
> > > with those?
> > >
> > > J.
> > >
> >
> >
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com>.
That was me, got mixed my mail accounts.
Regarding problem 4: probably we should explain to newcomers not only how
to use dev lists, but also why we use it. Dev list was just a weird legacy
solution until I've heard about Apache requirements and SE indexing .
Anton
On Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 00:43 A Z <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. I don't mind asynchronous communication. I love it too because it
> provides more meaningful discussions. You don't have to hurry to answer and
> can give you some time to organize your thoughts. Although sometimes you'd
> like to make it quick (e.g. hotfixing that requires >1 ppl). Slack/Gitter
> provides you an opportunity for both quick/slow communication. Email is
> very bad for quick replies. That limitation is the thing I'd like to get
> rid of.
>
> 2. I've tried Pony Mail. Currently, I'm using it. It is way better than
> usual Gmail interface (I use it for 10+ years with short pause when I
> switch to Inbox), but there are still huge disadvantages:
> a) I can't quote particular sentence to address it
> b) There is no way of structuring your text (like bulleting, underscoring,
> indentation, etc). Yes, I know I can use it in the Gmail web client, but It
> is way harder to navigate there.
> c) No threads. Every discussion tends to split into different branches, so
> it is nice to be able to join one of the threads ignoring the whole
> discussion (or vice-versa).
> d) Reply window just holds half of my screen. I have to close it to reread
> some points in the discussion.
> e) A lot of niche things that I get used to (like polls, images, etc).
> They're not that crucial but make communication easier.
> f) I still have a cluttered inbox, hence all the discussions arrive there.
> Yes, I can create smart filters, but it still needs some effort.
>
> 3. Yes, mobile device is a problem. Mailing lists on mobile are still just
> Gmail client which is horrible for that kind of discussion.
>
> 4. And now my biggest concern: for the majority of users joining to mail
> list sounds like an invite to MySpace. It is easier to skip the community
> then make an effort into understanding how devlists do work. I think the
> main problem is not the struggle of existing users but the number of
> developers who skipped conversation being afraid of the unfamiliar
> messaging tool.
>
> On 2019/12/31 23:22:43, Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
> > I had some discussion today and I'd love to get some more insight (@Anton
> > Zayniev and others). I think about spending some of my time next year on
> > Apache-general projects so that might be one I might put some effort
> into.
> > So I would love to learn more.
> > Anton - I would love to run an experiment with you. Would you like to try
> > to use the https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org to
> > respond to that email - quoting relevant parts etc. ?
> >
> > - What I really love about email interface is the built-in
> asynchronous
> > communication (thus slowness). I never expect response immediately,
> nor
> > provide one. I think this is deeply embedded in the whole Apache Way.
> > People in Apache projects are all over the world, have different
> > schedules/time zones and responding after some time is OK and
> expected.
> > This is why we gave 72 hrs of voting time for example. Is this
> > something that bothers people who do not like mail interface (Anton?)
> is
> > your expectation about immediacy of communication?
> > - The UI/interface - have you (Anton and others) used
> > https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org ? like
> > "log-in" and use it as mail sending interface? Not that different from
> > Gmail/Other web interfaces. I am using Gmail for like 12 years now as
> my
> > only email interface (no clients whatsoever) and never looked back
> after
> > switching. Maybe you simply don't realise how comfortable and useful
> it is
> > to use web interface for writing emails or messages?
> > - Or maybe the problem is mobile devices?
> > - I think once you learn how to start new threads, comments with
> quoting
> > etc, mailing list is pretty useful. I don't think slack is much
> better in
> > it to be honest. What are the most annoying things that bother you
> Anton
> > with those?
> >
> > J.
> >
>
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com>.
I agree with Tomek that we should make our tool better. It is the users who
becomes contributors.
We need to spend more time making the tool better, the onboarding, how-to
guides better.
I would also like to +1 "user opinions" from the survey. If they know how
Airflow works, it would be easier for the users to contribute new features.
We still have a long way to go before we complete some important AIPs too
for Airflow 2.0.
As the project gets more and more users, it would automatically have an
impact on the talks about the project in various meetups and conferences
over the world (in local languages).
Regards,
Kaxil
On Sat, Jan 11, 2020, 21:43 A Z <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. I don't mind asynchronous communication. I love it too because it
> provides more meaningful discussions. You don't have to hurry to answer and
> can give you some time to organize your thoughts. Although sometimes you'd
> like to make it quick (e.g. hotfixing that requires >1 ppl). Slack/Gitter
> provides you an opportunity for both quick/slow communication. Email is
> very bad for quick replies. That limitation is the thing I'd like to get
> rid of.
>
> 2. I've tried Pony Mail. Currently, I'm using it. It is way better than
> usual Gmail interface (I use it for 10+ years with short pause when I
> switch to Inbox), but there are still huge disadvantages:
> a) I can't quote particular sentence to address it
> b) There is no way of structuring your text (like bulleting, underscoring,
> indentation, etc). Yes, I know I can use it in the Gmail web client, but It
> is way harder to navigate there.
> c) No threads. Every discussion tends to split into different branches, so
> it is nice to be able to join one of the threads ignoring the whole
> discussion (or vice-versa).
> d) Reply window just holds half of my screen. I have to close it to reread
> some points in the discussion.
> e) A lot of niche things that I get used to (like polls, images, etc).
> They're not that crucial but make communication easier.
> f) I still have a cluttered inbox, hence all the discussions arrive there.
> Yes, I can create smart filters, but it still needs some effort.
>
> 3. Yes, mobile device is a problem. Mailing lists on mobile are still just
> Gmail client which is horrible for that kind of discussion.
>
> 4. And now my biggest concern: for the majority of users joining to mail
> list sounds like an invite to MySpace. It is easier to skip the community
> then make an effort into understanding how devlists do work. I think the
> main problem is not the struggle of existing users but the number of
> developers who skipped conversation being afraid of the unfamiliar
> messaging tool.
>
> On 2019/12/31 23:22:43, Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
> > I had some discussion today and I'd love to get some more insight (@Anton
> > Zayniev and others). I think about spending some of my time next year on
> > Apache-general projects so that might be one I might put some effort
> into.
> > So I would love to learn more.
> > Anton - I would love to run an experiment with you. Would you like to try
> > to use the https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org to
> > respond to that email - quoting relevant parts etc. ?
> >
> > - What I really love about email interface is the built-in
> asynchronous
> > communication (thus slowness). I never expect response immediately,
> nor
> > provide one. I think this is deeply embedded in the whole Apache Way.
> > People in Apache projects are all over the world, have different
> > schedules/time zones and responding after some time is OK and
> expected.
> > This is why we gave 72 hrs of voting time for example. Is this
> > something that bothers people who do not like mail interface (Anton?)
> is
> > your expectation about immediacy of communication?
> > - The UI/interface - have you (Anton and others) used
> > https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org ? like
> > "log-in" and use it as mail sending interface? Not that different from
> > Gmail/Other web interfaces. I am using Gmail for like 12 years now as
> my
> > only email interface (no clients whatsoever) and never looked back
> after
> > switching. Maybe you simply don't realise how comfortable and useful
> it is
> > to use web interface for writing emails or messages?
> > - Or maybe the problem is mobile devices?
> > - I think once you learn how to start new threads, comments with
> quoting
> > etc, mailing list is pretty useful. I don't think slack is much
> better in
> > it to be honest. What are the most annoying things that bother you
> Anton
> > with those?
> >
> > J.
> >
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by A Z <an...@gmail.com>.
1. I don't mind asynchronous communication. I love it too because it provides more meaningful discussions. You don't have to hurry to answer and can give you some time to organize your thoughts. Although sometimes you'd like to make it quick (e.g. hotfixing that requires >1 ppl). Slack/Gitter provides you an opportunity for both quick/slow communication. Email is very bad for quick replies. That limitation is the thing I'd like to get rid of.
2. I've tried Pony Mail. Currently, I'm using it. It is way better than usual Gmail interface (I use it for 10+ years with short pause when I switch to Inbox), but there are still huge disadvantages:
a) I can't quote particular sentence to address it
b) There is no way of structuring your text (like bulleting, underscoring, indentation, etc). Yes, I know I can use it in the Gmail web client, but It is way harder to navigate there.
c) No threads. Every discussion tends to split into different branches, so it is nice to be able to join one of the threads ignoring the whole discussion (or vice-versa).
d) Reply window just holds half of my screen. I have to close it to reread some points in the discussion.
e) A lot of niche things that I get used to (like polls, images, etc). They're not that crucial but make communication easier.
f) I still have a cluttered inbox, hence all the discussions arrive there. Yes, I can create smart filters, but it still needs some effort.
3. Yes, mobile device is a problem. Mailing lists on mobile are still just Gmail client which is horrible for that kind of discussion.
4. And now my biggest concern: for the majority of users joining to mail list sounds like an invite to MySpace. It is easier to skip the community then make an effort into understanding how devlists do work. I think the main problem is not the struggle of existing users but the number of developers who skipped conversation being afraid of the unfamiliar messaging tool.
On 2019/12/31 23:22:43, Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
> I had some discussion today and I'd love to get some more insight (@Anton
> Zayniev and others). I think about spending some of my time next year on
> Apache-general projects so that might be one I might put some effort into.
> So I would love to learn more.
> Anton - I would love to run an experiment with you. Would you like to try
> to use the https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org to
> respond to that email - quoting relevant parts etc. ?
>
> - What I really love about email interface is the built-in asynchronous
> communication (thus slowness). I never expect response immediately, nor
> provide one. I think this is deeply embedded in the whole Apache Way.
> People in Apache projects are all over the world, have different
> schedules/time zones and responding after some time is OK and expected.
> This is why we gave 72 hrs of voting time for example. Is this
> something that bothers people who do not like mail interface (Anton?) is
> your expectation about immediacy of communication?
> - The UI/interface - have you (Anton and others) used
> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org ? like
> "log-in" and use it as mail sending interface? Not that different from
> Gmail/Other web interfaces. I am using Gmail for like 12 years now as my
> only email interface (no clients whatsoever) and never looked back after
> switching. Maybe you simply don't realise how comfortable and useful it is
> to use web interface for writing emails or messages?
> - Or maybe the problem is mobile devices?
> - I think once you learn how to start new threads, comments with quoting
> etc, mailing list is pretty useful. I don't think slack is much better in
> it to be honest. What are the most annoying things that bother you Anton
> with those?
>
> J.
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
I had some discussion today and I'd love to get some more insight (@Anton
Zayniev and others). I think about spending some of my time next year on
Apache-general projects so that might be one I might put some effort into.
So I would love to learn more.
Anton - I would love to run an experiment with you. Would you like to try
to use the https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org to
respond to that email - quoting relevant parts etc. ?
- What I really love about email interface is the built-in asynchronous
communication (thus slowness). I never expect response immediately, nor
provide one. I think this is deeply embedded in the whole Apache Way.
People in Apache projects are all over the world, have different
schedules/time zones and responding after some time is OK and expected.
This is why we gave 72 hrs of voting time for example. Is this
something that bothers people who do not like mail interface (Anton?) is
your expectation about immediacy of communication?
- The UI/interface - have you (Anton and others) used
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org ? like
"log-in" and use it as mail sending interface? Not that different from
Gmail/Other web interfaces. I am using Gmail for like 12 years now as my
only email interface (no clients whatsoever) and never looked back after
switching. Maybe you simply don't realise how comfortable and useful it is
to use web interface for writing emails or messages?
- Or maybe the problem is mobile devices?
- I think once you learn how to start new threads, comments with quoting
etc, mailing list is pretty useful. I don't think slack is much better in
it to be honest. What are the most annoying things that bother you Anton
with those?
J.
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com>.
I think we still can make mailing lists less confusing for newcomers. There
are proprietary software (like the one Zendesk is using) that parses email
content into meaningful threads somewhat similar to Facebook comments.
Probably there are open source solutions. Quick googling brought me this
one https://github.com/achyudh/mailing-list-analyzer, but looks like it is
already abandoned. Maybe somebody knows mail parsers that are currently
alive.
Anton
On Mon, Dec 30, 2019, 15:56 Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
> Yeah. +1 to what Kaxil said. But I see your point Anton as well.
>
> Mailing list communication is really the "fundament" of Apache Software
> Foundation projects.
>
> While I understand your pain, there is a strong reasoning behind it - and
> it might be difficult to change. It's not only indexing but also assuring
> that the history is available, is not moderated by a third party and
> accessible by everyone (now and in the future) and universally available
> without any extra non-standard software. See "Open Communication"
> description in "The Apache Way". Mailing lists are specifically mentioned
> there as the only allowed "official" communication channel:
> https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/.
> Also quote from there - "Private decisions on code, policies, or project
> direction are disallowed; off-list discourse and transactions must be
> brought on-list.". That's pretty foundational for any ASF project. And our
> devlist archive is rather easily available and archived:
> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org
>
> What we often do is we have some initial discussion here, then move to
> slack where we create Special Interest Groups for ad-hoc communication with
> interested people and then make sure that whatever comes up from those
> discussions is communicated here or in the Airflow Improvement Proposal.
>
> Side note - I attended a talk at ApacheCon where two people sitting next
> to-each other were the only initial contributors at incubation phase and
> they forced themselves to communicate via the devlist to make it more
> transparent and publicly accessible by everyone.
>
> However this is a topic that I think we should often bring at the ASF level
> (ASF infrastructure and ASF board). I think it might be the right time to
> come up with a solution that will be as open and transparent, and as
> universally available as email interface is.
> I agree that it's not a pleasant experience - especially for people who are
> not used to e-mail and a bit old-fashioned "mail etiquette". I hear that
> complaint often and I agree we should work on a better solution. There are
> open-source alternatives - for example https://mattermost.com/ which can
> be
> self-hosted. But it would require quite some infrastructure effort from ASF
> to provide it for free to all the projects I am afraid - so I would not
> count on having it quickly - unfortunately.
>
> On the brighter side - maybe that's also an interesting point to raise and
> to add some small "mail etiquette/usage" training to our "First time
> Contributor Workshops" ? Once you start using mail and manage the way how
> to quote stuff etc, it's not as bad :)
>
> J.
>
> On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 3:13 PM Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > We also have Airflow Slack : https://apache-airflow-slack.herokuapp.com/
> >
> > The reason why we also having mailing list is slack messages are not
> > indexed by Google or other search engines.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 2:11 PM Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I'm fairly new to Airflow community and I'd like to share my main
> > struggle.
> > > Mailing lists is very hard to onboard: there is no easy available
> > > discussion archives (clicking for every new message seems weird); it is
> > > hard to respond to particular mail; you can not easily unfollow
> > > non-relevant discussions; you can't edit your previous message. Also
> > > mailing lists feels outdated.
> > > I think we could be much friendlier to newcomers if we move our main
> > > discussions to more modern service like slack. It's free tier a little
> > > clunky, but maybe there are non-commercial tiers. If not there are
> > > alternatives like gitter, etc. Probably anything would be friendly then
> > > mail list.
> > > Anton.
> > >
> > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019, 18:37 Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello everyone,
> > > >
> > > > TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being
> (even
> > > > more) welcoming community.
> > > >
> > > > It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently and
> > you
> > > > might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety of
> it.
> > > >
> > > > I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic and
> > > > mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like to
> ask
> > > > everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
> > > >
> > > > *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
> > > >
> > > > First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really
> > > welcoming
> > > > and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various ways
> to
> > > new
> > > > community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are
> responsive,
> > > > helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the
> > survey).
> > > > We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer status"
> > > (that's
> > > > highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC
> > members
> > > > (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow Summits),
> > > > workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier for
> > new
> > > > contributors to start contributing - by environment and documentation
> > > > improvements.
> > > >
> > > > At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry. It's
> > not
> > > > super easy to join the community and you must really earn your status
> > to
> > > > become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a
> > community
> > > in
> > > > enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without
> being
> > > > rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I joined
> > the
> > > > community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this
> > community
> > > > decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people talking
> > at
> > > > slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very
> important
> > > > lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And it
> was
> > > > super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
> > > > understanding how this all works (which I did).
> > > >
> > > > We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced
> > automatically,
> > > > some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have expectations
> > for
> > > > engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to
> > follow-up
> > > > their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and engage
> > > > committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only to
> > > > finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing
> things
> > > they
> > > > find or even improve the processes.
> > > >
> > > > I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry. When
> > > someone
> > > > new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they can be
> > > > valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way
> > > community
> > > > works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and expectations
> > and
> > > > that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we
> expect
> > > > those people to follow the expectations before we invite them further
> > > after
> > > > they "earned" the status. This is best described in the "meritocracy"
> > > rule
> > > > defined here:
> > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy . We
> > are
> > > > following it really well I think.
> > > >
> > > > I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
> > > > open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly well.
> And
> > > > I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache Software
> > > > Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
> > > >
> > > > *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
> > > >
> > > > I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether we
> > need
> > > to
> > > > do better currently at all.
> > > >
> > > > I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do
> > > something
> > > > more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming. Maybe
> we
> > > can
> > > > get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too
> > > difficult?
> > > > Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some of
> the
> > > > rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded do
> not
> > > > speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and they
> > are
> > > > afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be shouted
> > at. I
> > > > think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks great
> > and
> > > > when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being
> > triggered
> > > by
> > > > people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
> > > > deteriorates.
> > > >
> > > > The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with one of
> > the
> > > > attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the
> > after-party.
> > > We
> > > > talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to leave
> > the
> > > > party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to
> > raised a
> > > > few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to
> openly
> > > > speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are
> > valuing
> > > > less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
> > > > )
> > > > and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new
> > community
> > > > and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and he
> had
> > > > some really good examples for all those statements from his own
> > > experience.
> > > > After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him),
> > looked
> > > at
> > > > our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees how
> > > > welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns he
> > has
> > > in
> > > > really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I
> > thought -
> > > > maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
> > > >
> > > > For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list, almost
> > all
> > > > the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of
> course -
> > > > reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe we
> are
> > > > (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or
> slack
> > > or
> > > > reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to our
> > > > community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a great
> > point
> > > > that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the devlist
> or
> > > > slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to
> those
> > > > people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship for
> new
> > > > people so that we can guide people through the first stages of
> becoming
> > > > contributors and navigate the way our community works?
> > > >
> > > > It looks like we already have people from all over the world - US,
> > > Europe,
> > > > India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of
> those
> > > > places. But maybe we could do more to get more people
> > contributing/users
> > > > invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China yet
> > and
> > > > not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we
> can
> > do
> > > > something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where we
> had
> > > > Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow :)
> ?
> > > > There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community at
> the
> > > > ApacheCon Europe few months ago
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
> > > > on
> > > > how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because of
> the
> > > > language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new
> > contributors
> > > > in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors from
> > > there
> > > > (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who has
> > > > difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be
> your
> > > > local mentor for that).
> > > >
> > > > I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have
> them
> > > > immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or not.
> > But
> > > I
> > > > wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it -
> both
> > > > active members of our community and those who are just listening and
> > > rarely
> > > > discuss.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue? Or
> > maybe
> > > > there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better at
> > > being
> > > > more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion
> elsewhere
> > > > (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the
> > devlist
> > > > can chime in ?
> > > >
> > > > I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
> > > >
> > > > Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might quickly
> > > become a
> > > > controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so
> let's
> > > all
> > > > be careful with words and statements.
> > > >
> > > > J.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > > >
> > > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Jarek Potiuk
> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>
> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>.
Yeah. +1 to what Kaxil said. But I see your point Anton as well.
Mailing list communication is really the "fundament" of Apache Software
Foundation projects.
While I understand your pain, there is a strong reasoning behind it - and
it might be difficult to change. It's not only indexing but also assuring
that the history is available, is not moderated by a third party and
accessible by everyone (now and in the future) and universally available
without any extra non-standard software. See "Open Communication"
description in "The Apache Way". Mailing lists are specifically mentioned
there as the only allowed "official" communication channel:
https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/.
Also quote from there - "Private decisions on code, policies, or project
direction are disallowed; off-list discourse and transactions must be
brought on-list.". That's pretty foundational for any ASF project. And our
devlist archive is rather easily available and archived:
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@airflow.apache.org
What we often do is we have some initial discussion here, then move to
slack where we create Special Interest Groups for ad-hoc communication with
interested people and then make sure that whatever comes up from those
discussions is communicated here or in the Airflow Improvement Proposal.
Side note - I attended a talk at ApacheCon where two people sitting next
to-each other were the only initial contributors at incubation phase and
they forced themselves to communicate via the devlist to make it more
transparent and publicly accessible by everyone.
However this is a topic that I think we should often bring at the ASF level
(ASF infrastructure and ASF board). I think it might be the right time to
come up with a solution that will be as open and transparent, and as
universally available as email interface is.
I agree that it's not a pleasant experience - especially for people who are
not used to e-mail and a bit old-fashioned "mail etiquette". I hear that
complaint often and I agree we should work on a better solution. There are
open-source alternatives - for example https://mattermost.com/ which can be
self-hosted. But it would require quite some infrastructure effort from ASF
to provide it for free to all the projects I am afraid - so I would not
count on having it quickly - unfortunately.
On the brighter side - maybe that's also an interesting point to raise and
to add some small "mail etiquette/usage" training to our "First time
Contributor Workshops" ? Once you start using mail and manage the way how
to quote stuff etc, it's not as bad :)
J.
On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 3:13 PM Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We also have Airflow Slack : https://apache-airflow-slack.herokuapp.com/
>
> The reason why we also having mailing list is slack messages are not
> indexed by Google or other search engines.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 2:11 PM Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I'm fairly new to Airflow community and I'd like to share my main
> struggle.
> > Mailing lists is very hard to onboard: there is no easy available
> > discussion archives (clicking for every new message seems weird); it is
> > hard to respond to particular mail; you can not easily unfollow
> > non-relevant discussions; you can't edit your previous message. Also
> > mailing lists feels outdated.
> > I think we could be much friendlier to newcomers if we move our main
> > discussions to more modern service like slack. It's free tier a little
> > clunky, but maybe there are non-commercial tiers. If not there are
> > alternatives like gitter, etc. Probably anything would be friendly then
> > mail list.
> > Anton.
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019, 18:37 Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > > TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being (even
> > > more) welcoming community.
> > >
> > > It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently and
> you
> > > might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety of it.
> > >
> > > I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic and
> > > mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like to ask
> > > everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
> > >
> > > *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
> > >
> > > First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really
> > welcoming
> > > and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various ways to
> > new
> > > community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are responsive,
> > > helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the
> survey).
> > > We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer status"
> > (that's
> > > highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC
> members
> > > (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow Summits),
> > > workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier for
> new
> > > contributors to start contributing - by environment and documentation
> > > improvements.
> > >
> > > At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry. It's
> not
> > > super easy to join the community and you must really earn your status
> to
> > > become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a
> community
> > in
> > > enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without being
> > > rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I joined
> the
> > > community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this
> community
> > > decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people talking
> at
> > > slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very important
> > > lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And it was
> > > super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
> > > understanding how this all works (which I did).
> > >
> > > We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced
> automatically,
> > > some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have expectations
> for
> > > engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to
> follow-up
> > > their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and engage
> > > committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only to
> > > finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing things
> > they
> > > find or even improve the processes.
> > >
> > > I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry. When
> > someone
> > > new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they can be
> > > valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way
> > community
> > > works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and expectations
> and
> > > that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we expect
> > > those people to follow the expectations before we invite them further
> > after
> > > they "earned" the status. This is best described in the "meritocracy"
> > rule
> > > defined here:
> > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy . We
> are
> > > following it really well I think.
> > >
> > > I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
> > > open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly well. And
> > > I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache Software
> > > Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
> > >
> > > *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
> > >
> > > I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether we
> need
> > to
> > > do better currently at all.
> > >
> > > I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do
> > something
> > > more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming. Maybe we
> > can
> > > get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too
> > difficult?
> > > Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some of the
> > > rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded do not
> > > speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and they
> are
> > > afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be shouted
> at. I
> > > think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks great
> and
> > > when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being
> triggered
> > by
> > > people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
> > > deteriorates.
> > >
> > > The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with one of
> the
> > > attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the
> after-party.
> > We
> > > talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to leave
> the
> > > party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to
> raised a
> > > few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to openly
> > > speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are
> valuing
> > > less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
> > > )
> > > and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new
> community
> > > and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and he had
> > > some really good examples for all those statements from his own
> > experience.
> > > After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him),
> looked
> > at
> > > our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees how
> > > welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns he
> has
> > in
> > > really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I
> thought -
> > > maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
> > >
> > > For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list, almost
> all
> > > the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of course -
> > > reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe we are
> > > (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or slack
> > or
> > > reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to our
> > > community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a great
> point
> > > that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the devlist or
> > > slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to those
> > > people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship for new
> > > people so that we can guide people through the first stages of becoming
> > > contributors and navigate the way our community works?
> > >
> > > It looks like we already have people from all over the world - US,
> > Europe,
> > > India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of those
> > > places. But maybe we could do more to get more people
> contributing/users
> > > invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China yet
> and
> > > not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we can
> do
> > > something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where we had
> > > Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow :) ?
> > > There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community at the
> > > ApacheCon Europe few months ago
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
> > > on
> > > how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because of the
> > > language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new
> contributors
> > > in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors from
> > there
> > > (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who has
> > > difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be your
> > > local mentor for that).
> > >
> > > I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have them
> > > immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or not.
> But
> > I
> > > wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it - both
> > > active members of our community and those who are just listening and
> > rarely
> > > discuss.
> > >
> > > Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue? Or
> maybe
> > > there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better at
> > being
> > > more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion elsewhere
> > > (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the
> devlist
> > > can chime in ?
> > >
> > > I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
> > >
> > > Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might quickly
> > become a
> > > controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so let's
> > all
> > > be careful with words and statements.
> > >
> > > J.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Jarek Potiuk
> > > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> > >
> > > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> > >
> >
>
--
Jarek Potiuk
Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
[image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Kaxil Naik <ka...@gmail.com>.
We also have Airflow Slack : https://apache-airflow-slack.herokuapp.com/
The reason why we also having mailing list is slack messages are not
indexed by Google or other search engines.
On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 2:11 PM Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I'm fairly new to Airflow community and I'd like to share my main struggle.
> Mailing lists is very hard to onboard: there is no easy available
> discussion archives (clicking for every new message seems weird); it is
> hard to respond to particular mail; you can not easily unfollow
> non-relevant discussions; you can't edit your previous message. Also
> mailing lists feels outdated.
> I think we could be much friendlier to newcomers if we move our main
> discussions to more modern service like slack. It's free tier a little
> clunky, but maybe there are non-commercial tiers. If not there are
> alternatives like gitter, etc. Probably anything would be friendly then
> mail list.
> Anton.
>
> On Sun, Dec 29, 2019, 18:37 Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being (even
> > more) welcoming community.
> >
> > It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently and you
> > might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety of it.
> >
> > I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic and
> > mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like to ask
> > everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
> >
> > *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
> >
> > First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really
> welcoming
> > and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various ways to
> new
> > community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are responsive,
> > helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the survey).
> > We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer status"
> (that's
> > highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC members
> > (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow Summits),
> > workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier for new
> > contributors to start contributing - by environment and documentation
> > improvements.
> >
> > At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry. It's not
> > super easy to join the community and you must really earn your status to
> > become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a community
> in
> > enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without being
> > rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I joined the
> > community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this community
> > decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people talking at
> > slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very important
> > lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And it was
> > super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
> > understanding how this all works (which I did).
> >
> > We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced automatically,
> > some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have expectations for
> > engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to follow-up
> > their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and engage
> > committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only to
> > finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing things
> they
> > find or even improve the processes.
> >
> > I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry. When
> someone
> > new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they can be
> > valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way
> community
> > works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and expectations and
> > that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we expect
> > those people to follow the expectations before we invite them further
> after
> > they "earned" the status. This is best described in the "meritocracy"
> rule
> > defined here:
> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy . We are
> > following it really well I think.
> >
> > I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
> > open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly well. And
> > I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache Software
> > Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
> >
> > *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
> >
> > I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether we need
> to
> > do better currently at all.
> >
> > I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do
> something
> > more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming. Maybe we
> can
> > get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too
> difficult?
> > Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some of the
> > rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded do not
> > speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and they are
> > afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be shouted at. I
> > think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks great and
> > when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being triggered
> by
> > people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
> > deteriorates.
> >
> > The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with one of the
> > attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the after-party.
> We
> > talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to leave the
> > party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to raised a
> > few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to openly
> > speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are valuing
> > less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
> >
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
> > )
> > and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new community
> > and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and he had
> > some really good examples for all those statements from his own
> experience.
> > After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him), looked
> at
> > our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees how
> > welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns he has
> in
> > really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I thought -
> > maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
> >
> > For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list, almost all
> > the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of course -
> > reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe we are
> > (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or slack
> or
> > reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to our
> > community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a great point
> > that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the devlist or
> > slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to those
> > people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship for new
> > people so that we can guide people through the first stages of becoming
> > contributors and navigate the way our community works?
> >
> > It looks like we already have people from all over the world - US,
> Europe,
> > India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of those
> > places. But maybe we could do more to get more people contributing/users
> > invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China yet and
> > not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we can do
> > something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where we had
> > Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow :) ?
> > There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community at the
> > ApacheCon Europe few months ago
> >
> >
> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
> > on
> > how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because of the
> > language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new contributors
> > in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors from
> there
> > (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who has
> > difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be your
> > local mentor for that).
> >
> > I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have them
> > immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or not. But
> I
> > wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it - both
> > active members of our community and those who are just listening and
> rarely
> > discuss.
> >
> > Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue? Or maybe
> > there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better at
> being
> > more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion elsewhere
> > (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the devlist
> > can chime in ?
> >
> > I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
> >
> > Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might quickly
> become a
> > controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so let's
> all
> > be careful with words and statements.
> >
> > J.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jarek Potiuk
> > Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
> >
> > M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> > [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
> >
>
Re: [NON-TECHNICAL] [DISCUSS] Being even more welcoming community ?
Posted by Anton Zayniev <an...@gmail.com>.
I'm fairly new to Airflow community and I'd like to share my main struggle.
Mailing lists is very hard to onboard: there is no easy available
discussion archives (clicking for every new message seems weird); it is
hard to respond to particular mail; you can not easily unfollow
non-relevant discussions; you can't edit your previous message. Also
mailing lists feels outdated.
I think we could be much friendlier to newcomers if we move our main
discussions to more modern service like slack. It's free tier a little
clunky, but maybe there are non-commercial tiers. If not there are
alternatives like gitter, etc. Probably anything would be friendly then
mail list.
Anton.
On Sun, Dec 29, 2019, 18:37 Jarek Potiuk <Ja...@polidea.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> TL; DR; I wanted to start a non-technical discussion about being (even
> more) welcoming community.
>
> It's a long read - following some deep discussions I had recently and you
> might not be interested in it, so feel free to skip the entirety of it.
>
> I also believe this might become quickly a controversial topic and
> mis-communication over email can easily happen - so I would like to ask
> everyone to be considerate and open-minded when responding.
>
> *Some context - how welcoming are we now ?*
>
> First of all I think we are doing a lot as community to be really welcoming
> and friendly. A lot that we do is really opening up in various ways to new
> community members, users, existing contributors etc. We are responsive,
> helpful, we try to actively reach-out to get users opinions (the survey).
> We are open to invite non-code-committers to get "committer status" (that's
> highly encouraged by the Apache Software Foundation!) or even PMC members
> (yeah!). We organise events (Meetups and upcoming Airflow Summits),
> workshops for users and new contributors. We are making it easier for new
> contributors to start contributing - by environment and documentation
> improvements.
>
> At the same time we have certain expectations/barrier of entry. It's not
> super easy to join the community and you must really earn your status to
> become a committer/PMC member. I think we are fairly good as a community in
> enforcing that in deliberate and firm ways - and all this without being
> rude or aggressive. I remember one of the first emails when I joined the
> community where I was firmly but friendly reminded that in this community
> decisions are made by the community and not a bunch of people talking at
> slack and agreeing to something between them. That was a very important
> lesson to me - and first trigger to learn what ApacheWay is. And it was
> super cool even though I felt I have to apologize for my lack of
> understanding how this all works (which I did).
>
> We have certain expectations for PRs/code - some enforced automatically,
> some by comments/discussions/review process. And we have expectations for
> engagement of people submitting the code. They are supposed to follow-up
> their PRs - being responsible to get the PRs to submission and engage
> committers when they need it. We also encourage people not only to
> finger-point things to fix but also engage and help with fixing things they
> find or even improve the processes.
>
> I think it's rather good mixture of openness/barrier of entry. When someone
> new joins any community - has to first adapt and show how they can be
> valuable for the community before he or she can influence the way community
> works. So it's great that there are firm boundaries and expectations and
> that we clearly explain them to anyone that tries to join and we expect
> those people to follow the expectations before we invite them further after
> they "earned" the status. This is best described in the "meritocracy" rule
> defined here:
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#meritocracy . We are
> following it really well I think.
>
> I believe in many ways we are much better than a number of other
> open-source communities and we are following ApacheWay fairly well. And
> I've heard personally a member of the board of the Apache Software
> Foundation praising how welcoming Apache Airflow community is.
>
> *So why the discussion at all if we are in such good shape ?*
>
> I just wanted to see if we can do better than that - and whether we need to
> do better currently at all.
>
> I think it's fairly easy to overlook the moment when we should do something
> more. Maybe we can change something to be even more welcoming. Maybe we can
> get people engaged who currently do not engage because it is too difficult?
> Maybe we miss another point of view because of that? Maybe some of the
> rules we have should be updated? Maybe people who feel excluded do not
> speak here because they feel the barrier of entry is too big and they are
> afraid they will not be heard or will be ignored or will be shouted at. I
> think it's better to discuss such things when everything looks great and
> when there is a good "vibe" in the community rather than being triggered by
> people complaining after it becomes a problem and when the "vibe"
> deteriorates.
>
> The trigger for my thoughts was a looong discussion I had with one of the
> attendees of PyDataWarsaw conference a few weeks ago at the after-party. We
> talked for several hours I think, and we were the last ones to leave the
> party grounds (yes it was 3 am or so :D ). The person I spoke to raised a
> few important topics - like "not everyone has enough courage to openly
> speak at the discussion list first" or "unconsciously people are valuing
> less contributions by women" (there is a study confirming that
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/12/women-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github
> )
> and "some people need a kind of mentorship when they enter new community
> and after the introduction they become great contributors" - and he had
> some really good examples for all those statements from his own experience.
> After the discussion he read about Apache Way (as I advised him), looked at
> our discussions and he wrote to me a few days ago that he sees how
> welcoming we are and that we are addressing a lot of the concerns he has in
> really good way - but nevertheless it stuck with me a bit and I thought -
> maybe he is right that we should discuss it.
>
> For example - while we have two women on the PMC member list, almost all
> the people committing the code are male (I believe). This - of course -
> reflects the state of our industry and is nothing new, but maybe we are
> (unconsciously) doing something in our discussions in devlistt or slack or
> reviews that puts off people who otherwise would be valuable to our
> community? The friend of mine who triggered my thinking had a great point
> that not everyone new has the courage to speak openly at the devlist or
> slack initially. Maybe we should reach out in a different way to those
> people? Or maybe we should think about some kind of mentorship for new
> people so that we can guide people through the first stages of becoming
> contributors and navigate the way our community works?
>
> It looks like we already have people from all over the world - US, Europe,
> India, Japan, Australia, China. We have meetups in almost all of those
> places. But maybe we could do more to get more people contributing/users
> invited from some places (for example we have no meetups in China yet and
> not a lot of people from South America I think). Again - maybe we can do
> something about it ?. I know there was an event in Mexico where we had
> Airflow workshop - maybe we can reach out to people there somehow :) ?
> There was also a great presentation about Chinese user community at the
> ApacheCon Europe few months ago
>
> https://aceu19.apachecon.com/session/inviting-apache-flinks-chinese-user-community
> on
> how difficult it is to get people in China contributing because of the
> language barrier. Maybe we should get more workshops for new contributors
> in Chinese/Mandarin in China initially and get some contributors from there
> (writing description of a PR might be easier even for someone who has
> difficulties speaking english or you can have someone who will be your
> local mentor for that).
>
> I do not have concrete proposals yet, or I do not ask you to have them
> immediately. I don't even know yet if we should do something or not. But I
> wanted to open up discussion to hear what others think about it - both
> active members of our community and those who are just listening and rarely
> discuss.
>
> Maybe we are really in a good state and we should just continue? Or maybe
> there are some easy things we can do as a community to get better at being
> more welcoming ? Also maybe we should forward the discussion elsewhere
> (users@?/Slack?/Meetups?) so that others who are not reading the devlist
> can chime in ?
>
> I'd really love to hear what others think about it!
>
> Again - please be considerate and open-minded - this might quickly become a
> controversial subject and miscommunication is almost certain, so let's all
> be careful with words and statements.
>
> J.
>
> --
>
> Jarek Potiuk
> Polidea <https://www.polidea.com/> | Principal Software Engineer
>
> M: +48 660 796 129 <+48660796129>
> [image: Polidea] <https://www.polidea.com/>
>