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Posted to users@openoffice.apache.org by Scooter C <sc...@scootersdesk.com> on 2012/05/29 18:34:13 UTC
Total User confusion
Good Afternoon Group,
The last few emails, Mr Cassia's comments and "Monumental weeping and
gnashing of teeth".
Made me do some research on my own because this whole switch to Apache
was confusing and the research didn't clear anything up. I did get some
explanations of what happened to my Open Office and what Apache's
"incubator" means. The word itself makes me nervous. All it says to me
is that this is temporary, egg stage, incomplete.
I'll have to go through the "learning" stages all over again.
When my OOo 3.3 stopped updating, I knew my blissful use of Open Office
was at an end.
I was aware of the change via an email in my former OpenOffice.org group.
I wasn't prepared for this apparent war, when I was forced to leave my
comfort zone to find Open Office.
Finding was not so easy, all my resources, including my group, were gone.
A Search brought up LibreOffice, so I thought I found it and installed
it. Later I tripped over an article that mentioned Apache's take over of
MY OOo and installed it. I also found this User group. I felt at home
and bristle at negative comments about MY AOO in MY group! It used to be
MS-Office jabs at my chosen office application, now its other Open
Office programs represented by Mr. Cassia.!
This is supposed to be a USERS help line for AOO, not a bashing
opportunity for the disgruntled.
Take Care.
Scooter
College Park, MD USA
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Re: Total User confusion
Posted by Niall Martin <ni...@rndmartin.cix.co.uk>.
I didn't want to provoke a flame war, but since the article he cited (which I read with
interest) mentioned that we'd worked on Smartsuite, make a suggestion that he could use his
background to improve Open Office and make it more usable.
Perhaps I'll explain what I have in mind. In Approach, I can, just as in Base, be in Browse
mode or Design mode. I can display records in Forms or Worksheets, dealing with them in
either mode, in the former I look at records individually, in the latter in bulk. In either view I
can add or delete a record, and I can print as required, and I can design any of them to
display whatever fields I am interested in. I can also create reports, showing whatever fields
I want, from whatever underlying database [in DBase format] I am working with, provided I
have first joined them on suitable common fields. I can also search in any Worksheet or
Form for all records with particular values of any field of interest. I suppose the Base
equivalent of a worksheet is a table? But in Base what is a form, and what exactly is a
Query? I assume that a Table is the equivalent of a Worksheet, but in my experiments with
Base, the Forms look like Worksheets to me, but also to Reports. What exactly is a query,
or is it an elaborate way of doing a search? I need some kind of orienting help, and maybe
the website Dan mentioned could be it. The help files need to start back at the beginning
and explain things.
A further feature of Smartsuite that I found very helpful when I was feeling my way with it
was the close integration of Approach with 123, which made setting up Approach databases
relative easy. I had come to it like many others with an Amstrad and the LocoFile flat file
database that went with LocoScript, the programme that ran on them, and which I continued
to use when I first went over to a PC in the early 90s.
Best wishes
On 30 May 2012 at 12:46, Dan Lewis wrote:
Send reply to: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Date sent: Wed, 30 May 2012 12:46:33 -0400
From: Dan Lewis <el...@gmail.com>
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Total User confusion
> Alexander Thurgood wrote:
> > Le 30/05/12 17:03, Dan Lewis a écrit :
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Sorry to butt in, but Approach was way simpler to set up and get
> > something functional than anything OOo Base has ever provided.
> >
> >
> >
> >> It does take some patience for a while to learn the
> >> difference in
> >> the terms used. And it pays to be flexible.
> >
> > Hmm, flexible as in "being able to do the splits, juggle 5 balls
> > with one hand, spit fire, and dance the tango on one leg all at the
> > same time" ? ;-)
> >
> > To get the equivalent out of 30 minutes using Approach you would
> > have to spend several days and much pulling of hair and gnashing of
> > teeth to get the same thing out of Base - the user experience just
> > isn't the same - period, and it ain't getting any better :
> >
> > - dropped support for native mysql connections due to licensing
> > issues;
> >
> > - dropped support for the Oracle Report Builder due to licensing
> > issues;
> >
> > - non functional or incomplete ODBC connection implementations;
> >
> > - no multi-table querying/update DBF support - complete opposite of
> > Approach - in fact DBF support in AOO Base is rudimentary, it was
> > actually even better supported under StarOffice 3-5.1 ;
> >
> > - terrible JDBC query/retrieval performance via the UI or any of the
> > wizards, including mailmerge, for anything more than a hundred
> > datasets with 15 to 25 fields - even less than a 100 tuples can
> > bring the app to its knees ;
> >
> > - paranoia inspiring instability of the integrated HSQLDB engine,
> > resulting in complete loss or corruption of databases after a few
> > hours/days of usage ;
> >
> > Need I go on ?
> >
> >
> > But you can live with all of this if :
> > - you know how to manage/secure your precious data outside of AOO ;
> > - you know how program AOO to do the things that it just doesn't
> > provide via the GUI, or use alternatives ; - you know how to use
> > ODT/ODS templates and how to inject your external data sources into
> > them, either via the UI, or via separate programming languages or
> > document framework manipulation (php, perl, python).
> >
> > I am perhaps harsh here, but for me, Base is in no way comparable to
> > anything like Approach, FMPro, etc.
> >
> >
> > Alex
> No, you don't need to go on: your rant is long enough. It
> was suppose to be about the differences in vocabulary used
> as well as the AOO facilities. We don't even know what the
> OP's problem is with these items: nothing specific has been
> mentioned yet.
>
> --Dan
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For
> additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Niall Martin
Phone 0131 4678468
Please reply to: niall<at>rndmartin.cix.co.uk
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Re: Total User confusion
Posted by Dan Lewis <el...@gmail.com>.
Alexander Thurgood wrote:
> Le 30/05/12 17:03, Dan Lewis a écrit :
>
> Hi All,
>
> Sorry to butt in, but Approach was way simpler to set up and get
> something functional than anything OOo Base has ever provided.
>
>
>
>> It does take some patience for a while to learn the difference in
>> the terms used. And it pays to be flexible.
>
> Hmm, flexible as in "being able to do the splits, juggle 5 balls with
> one hand, spit fire, and dance the tango on one leg all at the same
> time" ? ;-)
>
> To get the equivalent out of 30 minutes using Approach you would have to
> spend several days and much pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth to get
> the same thing out of Base - the user experience just isn't the same -
> period, and it ain't getting any better :
>
> - dropped support for native mysql connections due to licensing issues;
>
> - dropped support for the Oracle Report Builder due to licensing issues;
>
> - non functional or incomplete ODBC connection implementations;
>
> - no multi-table querying/update DBF support - complete opposite of
> Approach - in fact DBF support in AOO Base is rudimentary, it was
> actually even better supported under StarOffice 3-5.1 ;
>
> - terrible JDBC query/retrieval performance via the UI or any of the
> wizards, including mailmerge, for anything more than a hundred datasets
> with 15 to 25 fields - even less than a 100 tuples can bring the app to
> its knees ;
>
> - paranoia inspiring instability of the integrated HSQLDB engine,
> resulting in complete loss or corruption of databases after a few
> hours/days of usage ;
>
> Need I go on ?
>
>
> But you can live with all of this if :
> - you know how to manage/secure your precious data outside of AOO ;
> - you know how program AOO to do the things that it just doesn't provide
> via the GUI, or use alternatives ;
> - you know how to use ODT/ODS templates and how to inject your external
> data sources into them, either via the UI, or via separate programming
> languages or document framework manipulation (php, perl, python).
>
> I am perhaps harsh here, but for me, Base is in no way comparable to
> anything like Approach, FMPro, etc.
>
>
> Alex
No, you don't need to go on: your rant is long enough. It
was suppose to be about the differences in vocabulary used
as well as the AOO facilities. We don't even know what the
OP's problem is with these items: nothing specific has been
mentioned yet.
--Dan
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Re: Total User confusion
Posted by Alexander Thurgood <al...@gmail.com>.
Le 30/05/12 17:03, Dan Lewis a écrit :
Hi All,
Sorry to butt in, but Approach was way simpler to set up and get
something functional than anything OOo Base has ever provided.
> It does take some patience for a while to learn the difference in
> the terms used. And it pays to be flexible.
Hmm, flexible as in "being able to do the splits, juggle 5 balls with
one hand, spit fire, and dance the tango on one leg all at the same
time" ? ;-)
To get the equivalent out of 30 minutes using Approach you would have to
spend several days and much pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth to get
the same thing out of Base - the user experience just isn't the same -
period, and it ain't getting any better :
- dropped support for native mysql connections due to licensing issues;
- dropped support for the Oracle Report Builder due to licensing issues;
- non functional or incomplete ODBC connection implementations;
- no multi-table querying/update DBF support - complete opposite of
Approach - in fact DBF support in AOO Base is rudimentary, it was
actually even better supported under StarOffice 3-5.1 ;
- terrible JDBC query/retrieval performance via the UI or any of the
wizards, including mailmerge, for anything more than a hundred datasets
with 15 to 25 fields - even less than a 100 tuples can bring the app to
its knees ;
- paranoia inspiring instability of the integrated HSQLDB engine,
resulting in complete loss or corruption of databases after a few
hours/days of usage ;
Need I go on ?
But you can live with all of this if :
- you know how to manage/secure your precious data outside of AOO ;
- you know how program AOO to do the things that it just doesn't provide
via the GUI, or use alternatives ;
- you know how to use ODT/ODS templates and how to inject your external
data sources into them, either via the UI, or via separate programming
languages or document framework manipulation (php, perl, python).
I am perhaps harsh here, but for me, Base is in no way comparable to
anything like Approach, FMPro, etc.
Alex
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Re: Total User confusion
Posted by Dan Lewis <el...@gmail.com>.
On 30 May 2012 at 7:49, Fernando Cassia wrote: Send reply
to: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org Date sent: Wed, 30 May
2012 07:49:26 -0300 Subject: Re: Total User confusion From:
Fernando Cassia <fc...@gmail.com> To:
ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Niall Martin
>> <ni...@rndmartin.cix.co.uk>wrote:
>>
>>> I have experimented with Open Office Base, but found it difficult
>>> to
>>> find my way
>>> into its facilities and vocabulary, to work out what it can do for
>>> me.
>>>
>> Here is a tutorial, FWIW.
>>
>> http://inpics.net/base.html
>>
>> By the way, I remember Lotus Approach vaguely (under OS/2)... I think
>> its database design screens were simpler.
>>
>> FC
>>
> Niall Martin wrote:
>> Looks interesting. I shall investigate. Thanks
>>
>>
>> Niall Martin
>> Phone 0131 4678468
>> Please reply to: niall<at>rndmartin.cix.co.uk
>>
I have been experimenting Base before if first
appeared in OOo 2.0 (I even experimented with Base using
developer snapshots while OOo 2.o was being developed. But I
don't understand what the difficulties are especially when
you refer to vocabulary and facilities. I had also created
dBase databases back in the OOo 1.x.x period when that was
the only option. I had no problems moving to Base from the
earlier dBase option.
Facilities: Does this mean you want to know what
abilities it has? What abilities would you like for it to have?
Vocabulary: What are the terms you do not understand?
What are the terms that you have used that you think might
match the Base terms?
I have read information about relational databases
online as well as a couple of textbooks. I find the
vocabulary used there is different from what Base uses, but
it has never been so different that I could not recognize
the new terms and apply them. I even find differences
between the references I mentioned. I even found one source
that is based upon the Algebra of sets!
It does take some patience for a while to learn the
difference in the terms used. And it pays to be flexible.
--Dan
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Re: Total User confusion
Posted by Niall Martin <ni...@rndmartin.cix.co.uk>.
Looks interesting. I shall investigate. Thanks
On 30 May 2012 at 7:49, Fernando Cassia wrote:
Send reply to: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Date sent: Wed, 30 May 2012 07:49:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Total User confusion
From: Fernando Cassia <fc...@gmail.com>
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Niall Martin
> <ni...@rndmartin.cix.co.uk>wrote:
>
> > I have experimented with Open Office Base, but found it difficult
> > to
> > find my way
> > into its facilities and vocabulary, to work out what it can do for
> > me.
> >
>
> Here is a tutorial, FWIW.
>
> http://inpics.net/base.html
>
> By the way, I remember Lotus Approach vaguely (under OS/2)... I think
> its database design screens were simpler.
>
> FC
>
Niall Martin
Phone 0131 4678468
Please reply to: niall<at>rndmartin.cix.co.uk
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Re: Total User confusion
Posted by Fernando Cassia <fc...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Niall Martin <ni...@rndmartin.cix.co.uk>wrote:
> I have experimented with Open Office Base, but found it difficult to
> find my way
> into its facilities and vocabulary, to work out what it can do for me.
>
Here is a tutorial, FWIW.
http://inpics.net/base.html
By the way, I remember Lotus Approach vaguely (under OS/2)... I think its
database design screens were simpler.
FC
Re: Total User confusion
Posted by Niall Martin <ni...@rndmartin.cix.co.uk>.
Rob's irony is appreciated. A little bit of self advertisement is in order. I am a user of Open
Office who is also a long term user of Lotus Smartsuite, which I still find makes some things
easier to do. In particular I run several Approach databases which I find easy to set up and
maintain. I have experimented with Open Office Base, but found it difficult to find my way
into its facilities and vocabulary, to work out what it can do for me. It is probably too much
to hope to find something that works like Approach, but wonder if there is any way my path
could be eased.
Best wishes
On 29 May 2012 at 22:05, Rob Weir wrote:
Send reply to: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Date sent: Tue, 29 May 2012 22:05:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Total User confusion
From: Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>
> But if you want an overview, I might suggest this interview with a
> very clever guy that sometimes is on this list:
>
> http://www.unixmen.com/rob-weir-explains-the-openoffice-resurrection-i
> nterview/
Niall Martin
Phone 0131 4678468
Please reply to: niall<at>rndmartin.cix.co.uk
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Re: Total User confusion - resolved
Posted by Scooter C <sc...@scootersdesk.com>.
Good Evening Mr. Weir & Mr. Cassia,
Mr. Weir:Thanks very much for your URL to your article.
Very comforting. I'm a user of Open Office not a programer, so some
ideas are foreign to me.
Mr. Cassia "MY AOO" is in reference to how I feel about the program.
I have had to let go of so many things familiar and loved, it unnerves me.
Open-Source AOO is still new to me as are the participants and the
assumption that I and other newbies know what your talking about. It
becomes uncomfortable.
My profession is in the CAD & Construction world, which is expensive and
constantly changing.
I earn a living with AutoCad and it sometimes makes me want to scream at
all the drastic upgrades.
Microsoft's OS "upgrades" have the same effect.
The one area that was always "safe" was Open Office. It improved, but
was always constant.
I truly dislike sudden change in my software, it rattles me and I don't
like feeling stupid.
Take Care.
Scooter
College Park, MD USA
Rob Weir wrote on 5/29/2012 10:05 PM:
> On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Scooter C<sc...@scootersdesk.com> wrote:
>> Good Afternoon Group,
>>
> Hi Scooter,
>
>> The last few emails, Mr Cassia's comments and "Monumental weeping and
>> gnashing of teeth".
> This list was made as a combination of the old users@openoffice.org
> and discuss@openoffice.org lists. So, as a subscriber, you will see
> some posts that are technical support related as well as community
> discussions.
>
>> Made me do some research on my own because this whole switch to Apache was
>> confusing and the research didn't clear anything up. I did get some
>> explanations of what happened to my Open Office and what Apache's
>> "incubator" means. Â The word itself makes me nervous. All it says to me is
>> that this is temporary, egg stage, incomplete.
>> I'll have to go through the "learning" stages all over again.
>>
>> When my OOo 3.3 stopped updating, I knew my blissful use of Open Office was
>> at an end.
>
> We just had 2.2 million downloads of Apache OpenOffice 3.4. I doubt
> even a fraction of 1% of then no or care what an "incubator" is. Why
> should they? Most users are happy and appreciative to download and
> use the software. That's why we make it, for the public to use.
>
> But if you want an overview, I might suggest this interview with a
> very clever guy that sometimes is on this list:
>
> http://www.unixmen.com/rob-weir-explains-the-openoffice-resurrection-interview/
>
>
>> I was aware of the change via an email in my former OpenOffice.org group.
>> I wasn't prepared for this apparent war, when I was forced to leave my
>> comfort zone to find Open Office.
>> Finding was not so easy, all my resources, including my group, were gone.
>>
> Very little has changed, except for the email address. The website is
> the same, the support forums are the same. The wiki is the same. The
> bugzilla is the same. The product UI is the same. Project volunteers
> went through a lot of pain and effort to make this migration as
> painless and transparent for users as possible,
>
>> A Search brought up LibreOffice, so I thought I found it and installed it.
>> Later I tripped over an article that mentioned Apache's take over of MY OOo
>> and installed it. I also found this User group. I felt at home and bristle
>> at negative comments about MY AOO in MY group! It used to be MS-Office jabs
>> at my chosen office application, now its other Open Office programs
>> represented by Mr. Cassia.!
>>
>> This is supposed to be a USERS help line for AOO, not a bashing opportunity
>> for the disgruntled.
>>
> I took Cassia's post as being more humorous, showing the over-the-top
> criticism that some of the fringe open source blogs have published.
>
> One way to look at it is this: We'll never be able to escape
> criticism and FUD. If LibreOffice was not attacking us, it would be
> Microsoft. In fact, we should make it our goal to court a higher
> class of FUD ;-)
>
> Regards,
>
> -Rob
>
>> Take Care.
>> Scooter
>> College Park, MD USA
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
>
>
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Re: Total User confusion
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Scooter C <sc...@scootersdesk.com> wrote:
> Good Afternoon Group,
>
Hi Scooter,
> The last few emails, Mr Cassia's comments and "Monumental weeping and
> gnashing of teeth".
This list was made as a combination of the old users@openoffice.org
and discuss@openoffice.org lists. So, as a subscriber, you will see
some posts that are technical support related as well as community
discussions.
> Made me do some research on my own because this whole switch to Apache was
> confusing and the research didn't clear anything up. I did get some
> explanations of what happened to my Open Office and what Apache's
> "incubator" means. The word itself makes me nervous. All it says to me is
> that this is temporary, egg stage, incomplete.
> I'll have to go through the "learning" stages all over again.
>
> When my OOo 3.3 stopped updating, I knew my blissful use of Open Office was
> at an end.
We just had 2.2 million downloads of Apache OpenOffice 3.4. I doubt
even a fraction of 1% of then no or care what an "incubator" is. Why
should they? Most users are happy and appreciative to download and
use the software. That's why we make it, for the public to use.
But if you want an overview, I might suggest this interview with a
very clever guy that sometimes is on this list:
http://www.unixmen.com/rob-weir-explains-the-openoffice-resurrection-interview/
> I was aware of the change via an email in my former OpenOffice.org group.
> I wasn't prepared for this apparent war, when I was forced to leave my
> comfort zone to find Open Office.
> Finding was not so easy, all my resources, including my group, were gone.
>
Very little has changed, except for the email address. The website is
the same, the support forums are the same. The wiki is the same. The
bugzilla is the same. The product UI is the same. Project volunteers
went through a lot of pain and effort to make this migration as
painless and transparent for users as possible,
> A Search brought up LibreOffice, so I thought I found it and installed it.
> Later I tripped over an article that mentioned Apache's take over of MY OOo
> and installed it. I also found this User group. I felt at home and bristle
> at negative comments about MY AOO in MY group! It used to be MS-Office jabs
> at my chosen office application, now its other Open Office programs
> represented by Mr. Cassia.!
>
> This is supposed to be a USERS help line for AOO, not a bashing opportunity
> for the disgruntled.
>
I took Cassia's post as being more humorous, showing the over-the-top
criticism that some of the fringe open source blogs have published.
One way to look at it is this: We'll never be able to escape
criticism and FUD. If LibreOffice was not attacking us, it would be
Microsoft. In fact, we should make it our goal to court a higher
class of FUD ;-)
Regards,
-Rob
> Take Care.
> Scooter
> College Park, MD USA
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: Total User confusion
Posted by Fernando Cassia <fc...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Scooter C <sc...@scootersdesk.com> wrote:
> A Search brought up LibreOffice, so I thought I found it and installed it.
> Later I tripped over an article that mentioned Apache's take over of MY OOo
> and installed it. I also found this User group. I felt at home and bristle
> at negative comments about MY AOO in MY group! It used to be MS-Office jabs
> at my chosen office application, now its other Open Office programs
> represented by Mr. Cassia.!
I am sorry that you did not understand my messages.
It is still not clear to me what "YOUR" AOO means.
And just to clarify, I'm not a representative of anything, much less
Apache. I have used OpenOffice since it was a propietary product dubbed
"StarOffice" (v3.1), that came from a small German firm dubbed StarDivision
Gmbh, before the Sun Microsystems acquisition and its later release as open
source. I then continued using both OpenOffice.org and also purchased
StarOffice, to contribute within my means to its development. I believed in
the dual-licensing and opensource+commercial version model. That's why I'm
backing Apache and AOO.
The message you reference is an email I posted to show the kind of anti-AOO
articles appearing on the press as of late (just the last 3 of them), not
because I agree with them, but because those kind of articles deeply annoy
me...
Best,
FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
- George Orwell