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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org> on 2002/02/04 22:58:01 UTC
Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
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Sorry for the X-post.
I just created a new mailing list:
java-is-dead@entropy.yi.org
You can sign up here:
http://entropy.yi.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/java-is-dead
...
Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary
even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized?
Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java?
Do you *hate* the JCP?
Are you sick of the fact that SUN keeps throwing new features into the VM and
bloating it beyond belief?
Do you want SUN to Open Source Java?
Do you want to collaborate around other Open Source Java implementations?
...
I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead
mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
Please feel free to forward this email or link to the mailing list from your
site.
Kevin
- --
Kevin A. Burton ( burton@apache.org, burton@openprivacy.org, burtonator@acm.org )
Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!
- Emiliano Zapata
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2002-02-06 at 06:32, Peter Donald wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > > > *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair
> > > > > chunk of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice
> > > > > license like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.
> > > >
> > > > BUT THERE WON'T BE!
> > >
> > > you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people
> > > envy
> >
> > I don't respond to personal attacks.
>
> If you think thats a personal attack then ...
>
> > > the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away
> > > years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the
> > > opensouece version (which is why it is now MIT licensed).
> >
> > Right, but what I mean is this: If you attempt to maintain
> > compatibility with the MS version then you will always be behind, broken
> > and stalled, if you don't then why start with what I imagine has baggage
> > from COM and .NET etc.
>
> Have you actually looked at the language?
>
*looks up at his Presenting C# book he bought the day it came out then
used a floor mat in his car for 6 months partly because it wasted many
of its few pages explaining what a VM or JIT was though they'd been
renamed with no shortcut mentions to Java, in fact the work Java
occurred once in the entire book (in regards to how easy it would be for
a Java programmer to learn).*
Its the platform I'm talking about.
> > > er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is
> > > enough to make it one of the best releases yet.
> >
> > So the IO stuff made it? I heard it was pushed to 1.5! I've been
> > running with 1.4 for testing purposes but haven't thoroughly studied
> > it. I based my statement on what was SUPPOSED to be included so far as
> > I know and what was pushed back etc.
>
> Hmmm .. NIO has always been in jdk1.4 - not sure why you would think it is
> not. Som stuff will be added to it in the future I suspect - specifically
> support for things like Unix domain sockets + named pipes will probably be
> present in jdk1.5 depending on who wins out on the EG :)
>
I think it came from reading the posts in the bug parade. Perhaps it
was just a rumor.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Don't take life too seriously --
> you'll never get out of it alive.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
--
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > > *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair
> > > > chunk of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice
> > > > license like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.
> > >
> > > BUT THERE WON'T BE!
> >
> > you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people
> > envy
>
> I don't respond to personal attacks.
If you think thats a personal attack then ...
> > the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away
> > years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the
> > opensouece version (which is why it is now MIT licensed).
>
> Right, but what I mean is this: If you attempt to maintain
> compatibility with the MS version then you will always be behind, broken
> and stalled, if you don't then why start with what I imagine has baggage
> from COM and .NET etc.
Have you actually looked at the language?
> > er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is
> > enough to make it one of the best releases yet.
>
> So the IO stuff made it? I heard it was pushed to 1.5! I've been
> running with 1.4 for testing purposes but haven't thoroughly studied
> it. I based my statement on what was SUPPOSED to be included so far as
> I know and what was pushed back etc.
Hmmm .. NIO has always been in jdk1.4 - not sure why you would think it is
not. Som stuff will be added to it in the future I suspect - specifically
support for things like Unix domain sockets + named pipes will probably be
present in jdk1.5 depending on who wins out on the EG :)
--
Cheers,
Pete
-----------------------------------------------------------
Don't take life too seriously --
you'll never get out of it alive.
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 14:47, Peter Donald wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote:
> > > On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > > > Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
> > > > > proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
> > > > > standardized?
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still
> > > > > optimistic about Java?
> > > >
> > > > Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary
> > > > thing to get back at SUN? Heck no.
> > >
> > > You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as
> > > head on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With
> > > the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource
> > > runtimes things are starting to look interesting.
> >
> > Can I run it on Linux? Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on
> > Linux.
>
> yes. Thats its primary target.
>
> > > *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk
> > > of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license
> > > like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.
> >
> > BUT THERE WON'T BE!
>
> you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people envy
I don't respond to personal attacks.
> the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away
> years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the opensouece
> version (which is why it is now MIT licensed).
>
Right, but what I mean is this: If you attempt to maintain
compatibility with the MS version then you will always be behind, broken
and stalled, if you don't then why start with what I imagine has baggage
from COM and .NET etc.
> > > If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java
> > > still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then
> > > it would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as
> > > MS - still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost
> > > certainly fall down in that area.
> >
> > So far I'm unimpressed with what has been added to 1.4 in the period of
> > time its taken. Mostly "candy" no meat.
>
> er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is
> enough to make it one of the best releases yet.
>
So the IO stuff made it? I heard it was pushed to 1.5! I've been
running with 1.4 for testing purposes but haven't thoroughly studied
it. I based my statement on what was SUPPOSED to be included so far as
I know and what was pushed back etc. The good news is Java Generics got
pushed back to 1.5. Sun still has time to rethink this crappy cop-out
implementation.
Couldn't care less about GUI stuff really.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Sorry, I forgot to take my medication today.
> --------------------------------------------
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
--
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote:
> > On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > > Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
> > > >
> > > > Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
> > > > proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
> > > > standardized?
> > > >
> > > > Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still
> > > > optimistic about Java?
> > >
> > > Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary
> > > thing to get back at SUN? Heck no.
> >
> > You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as
> > head on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With
> > the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource
> > runtimes things are starting to look interesting.
>
> Can I run it on Linux? Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on
> Linux.
yes. Thats its primary target.
> > *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk
> > of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license
> > like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.
>
> BUT THERE WON'T BE!
you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people envy
the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away
years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the opensouece
version (which is why it is now MIT licensed).
> > If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java
> > still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then
> > it would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as
> > MS - still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost
> > certainly fall down in that area.
>
> So far I'm unimpressed with what has been added to 1.4 in the period of
> time its taken. Mostly "candy" no meat.
er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is
enough to make it one of the best releases yet.
--
Cheers,
Pete
--------------------------------------------
Sorry, I forgot to take my medication today.
--------------------------------------------
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
> > >
> > > Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
> > > proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
> > > standardized?
> > >
> > > Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic
> > > about Java?
> >
> > Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
> > to get back at SUN? Heck no.
>
> You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as head
> on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent
> change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource runtimes things are
> starting to look interesting.
>
Can I run it on Linux? Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on
Linux.
> Technically there are things about C#/CLR/etc that are far superior to Java
> (much better meta-data support, no JNI pain, a nicer GUI setup, support for C
> based languages, etc) and theres also things that suck (hard to optimize
> bytecode, crapola linking model, etc).
>
True, but if past predictors continue to hold, there will never be a
version that runs reliably on another platform. And windows is a very
crappy platform. (I can do Solaris, UNIX, I prefer Linux but I can cope
with other good OSes)
> *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of
> people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT
> that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.
>
BUT THERE WON'T BE! That's the kicker. If we're just talking about
Java alternatives, I'm falling more in love (from a distance) with the
"D" language. It needs bytecode, etc (but I think the platform should
evolve in the language perhaps but separately from it)
> I don't think Sun will lose on high-end or the embedded device market but
> everywhere else I think is debatable ;) A lot of people I know who are java
> advocates have seriously looked at swapping to C# - at least for the desktop.
> Given how weak the C# runtime is now (at least compared to java) this I find
> interesting.
>
Microsoft people will of course switch to it. People who need serious
servers will need something that runs on UNIX.
> If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java
> still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then it
> would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as MS -
> still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost certainly
> fall down in that area.
>
So far I'm unimpressed with what has been added to 1.4 in the period of
time its taken. Mostly "candy" no meat.
> It will be interesting to see how IBM reacts. They have some damn fine VM
> people there, if they were to go the C# path and bring along all the Linux
> peeps then .... who knows ;)
>
I've never had much luck with IBM's JDKs. I seem to be the guy who
always runs into some horrible bug.
-Andy
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Pete
>
> "You know what a dumbshit the 'average man' on the street is? Well, by
> definition, half of them are even dumber than that!"
> J.R. "Bob" Dobbs
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>
--
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
--
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
+1
"Kevin A. Burton" wrote:
> > > Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
> > > to get back at SUN? Heck no.
>
> ... hm.. this discussion could be on the list... buy anyway.
-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Java Web Development with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Here is the kicker. If java were opensource, Microsoft would produce a
fork and so would IBM and etc.. Sun learned the wrong lessons from UNIX
though so they'd never let this happen.
Here is the bottomline: Let them fork, let the best one win. There are
now 3 wide-spread use UNIXes: Solaris, HPUX, and the
(Linux/FreeBSD/etc) (why did I lump them? Because they mostly share
the same everything cross compiled except the Kernel...I'm sure I'm
completely wrong your religion is better but *shrug*). Sun's fork could
focus on write once read everywhere. MS on making you use MS. IBM on
making you use IBM stuff, etc.
-Andy
On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 04:16, Kevin A. Burton wrote:
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> Hash: SHA1
>
> Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org> writes:
>
> > On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > > Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
> > > >
> > > > Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
> > > > proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
> > > > standardized?
> > > >
> > > > Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic
> > > > about Java?
> > >
> > > Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
> > > to get back at SUN? Heck no.
>
> ... hm.. this discussion could be on the list... buy anyway.
>
> > You sure it is more proprietary?
>
> I believe that C# and the CLR is less proprietary than Java. It has been pushed
> through a standards committee and there are Open Source implementations coming
> up around the corner.
>
> > I believe our PMC head actually sits as head on one of the standardization
> > efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing
> > with one of the opensource runtimes things are starting to look interesting.
>
> Yeah... I have to admit C# and the CLR looks good. I think that if Java were
> Open Source we could combine it with the CLR (or at least some of the concepts)
> to get the best worlds.
>
> That won't happen unless Java is Open Source.
>
> > Technically there are things about C#/CLR/etc that are far superior to Java
> > (much better meta-data support, no JNI pain, a nicer GUI setup, support for C
> > based languages, etc) and theres also things that suck (hard to optimize
> > bytecode, crapola linking model, etc).
>
> yeah... and if Java were Open Source we could see that some of the good things
> from the CLR were adopted within Java.
>
> > *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of
> > people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT
> > that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.
>
> yeah... I TOTALLY agree.
>
> I just don't want to have to throw every Jakarta project away just because SUN
> can't see the light.
>
> > I don't think Sun will lose on high-end or the embedded device market but
> > everywhere else I think is debatable ;)
>
> Hm... .NET is being ported to BSD and Linux. I don't know about that.
>
> > A lot of people I know who are java advocates have seriously looked at
> > swapping to C# - at least for the desktop. Given how weak the C# runtime is
> > now (at least compared to java) this I find interesting.
>
> I haven't looked at the C# gui stuff. I still don't think there is a solid GUI
> framework unless you use C++/QT/KDE
>
> > If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java still
> > has a fighting chance ... maybe.
>
> It would have a fighting chance. JavaOne is in march and I am hoping that SUN
> is planning on having an announcement then. Of course I was expecting an
> announcement last year and the year before that and they never came. :)
>
> > If the J2SE was opensourced then it would almost win by default. However Sun
> > is nowhere near as agile as MS - still too much of a slow hardware company -
> > so they will almost certainly fall down in that area.
>
> The Open Source community would PASTE Microsoft if we could develop the JDK
> with our own rules.
>
> > It will be interesting to see how IBM reacts. They have some damn fine VM
> > people there, if they were to go the C# path and bring along all the Linux
> > peeps then .... who knows ;)
> <snip/>
>
> maybe... without some type of accepted community or steward I think that
> everyone would just blow it off. GCJ looks cool but if everyone things Java is
> dead then there won't be any use for it.
>
> ... this stuff really makes me ill :(
>
> Kevin
>
> - --
> Kevin A. Burton ( burton@apache.org, burton@openprivacy.org, burtonator@acm.org )
> Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
> Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
>
> There are 6 billion people living on this planet, 5.4 billion have not yet
> chosen an Operating System
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--
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@thought.co.uk>.
> The Open Source community would PASTE Microsoft if we could
> develop the JDK
> with our own rules.
Paste SUN perhaps, M$ would just take their ball away and invent a new game.
I'm very suspicious about M$'s attitude towards standardising their
proprietary IP, they have one very good reason for doing so and that is to
lock innovative developers into a cycle of rapidly evolving standards which
forces them to adopt M$ technology if they want to stay at the front.
Read the halloween papers, and consider the HTML story as an example; M$
offered new features in their software (browser and tools) designed to
attract web authors/designers by offering faster and easier routes to market
with cool new product, they then (not before) submited them to be perused by
the w3c. Web authors who wanted to stay ahead used M$'s implementation in
advance of ratification, and at the expense of compliant s'ware. Once new
features were ratified M$'s competitive advantage was all but over, and in
very many notable cases much of the stuff submitted or ratified by M$ has
still not made it into the M$IE rendering engine.
Now we see M$ stake out a new playing field, and have the sport to
themselves for a while. Admittedly they have had a legal battle, and some
bad press, so they just may be behaving themselves, but as I said, I'm
suspicious of their motives.
Sun, are fighting to preserve their commercial advantage in difficult times
too, and I would think it unlikely that they would give up a licence
opportunity for anything but a big win at this point in the economic cycle.
That big win might be killing .NET, but given M$'s hold on so much corporate
IT I don't think _paying_ people to use J2EE would even do that at the
moment.
And don't forget that there is a whole population of programmers (many with
much more fancy job titles ;) out there who's whole stock in trade is
development for M$ platforms. These people are, by choice or not, staking
their careers on the success of .NET, so M$ has a significant grass roots
support which doesn't much care about political arguments or have the luxury
of choice over the finer points of architecture.
My best hope is that we can have fair competiton, and intelligent evolution
of the products. From an OS point of view I'd like to see someone develop a
truly independant OS platform/language (whatever these things we're
discussing are) and I would look towards academia to do this, the days of
the philanthropic corporations like xerox parc, AT&T etc. are well over, if
java, c# or .net had come from a university we'd be in a very different
position now.
Perhaps the best we can hope for is that Sun pay better attention to
consultation with their foot soldiers (us) as Jon said, "corner them into a
hole and then pound on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky,
you might get them to concede on an issue or two so that only you will be
happy." may not be enough if they are going to have to fight to survive.
d.
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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: burton@universe.yi.org [mailto:burton@universe.yi.org]On Behalf Of
> Kevin A. Burton
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 10:17 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Cc: java-is-dead@entropy.yi.org
> Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
>
>
> > A lot of people I know who are java advocates have seriously looked at
> > swapping to C# - at least for the desktop. Given how weak the
> C# runtime is
> > now (at least compared to java) this I find interesting.
>
> I haven't looked at the C# gui stuff. I still don't think there
> is a solid GUI framework unless you use C++/QT/KDE
The top architect of C# is also the guy that started Delphi at Borland.
Considering this, the GUI stuff sure might be interesting.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org> writes:
> On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
> > >
> > > Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
> > > proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
> > > standardized?
> > >
> > > Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic
> > > about Java?
> >
> > Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
> > to get back at SUN? Heck no.
... hm.. this discussion could be on the list... buy anyway.
> You sure it is more proprietary?
I believe that C# and the CLR is less proprietary than Java. It has been pushed
through a standards committee and there are Open Source implementations coming
up around the corner.
> I believe our PMC head actually sits as head on one of the standardization
> efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing
> with one of the opensource runtimes things are starting to look interesting.
Yeah... I have to admit C# and the CLR looks good. I think that if Java were
Open Source we could combine it with the CLR (or at least some of the concepts)
to get the best worlds.
That won't happen unless Java is Open Source.
> Technically there are things about C#/CLR/etc that are far superior to Java
> (much better meta-data support, no JNI pain, a nicer GUI setup, support for C
> based languages, etc) and theres also things that suck (hard to optimize
> bytecode, crapola linking model, etc).
yeah... and if Java were Open Source we could see that some of the good things
from the CLR were adopted within Java.
> *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of
> people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT
> that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.
yeah... I TOTALLY agree.
I just don't want to have to throw every Jakarta project away just because SUN
can't see the light.
> I don't think Sun will lose on high-end or the embedded device market but
> everywhere else I think is debatable ;)
Hm... .NET is being ported to BSD and Linux. I don't know about that.
> A lot of people I know who are java advocates have seriously looked at
> swapping to C# - at least for the desktop. Given how weak the C# runtime is
> now (at least compared to java) this I find interesting.
I haven't looked at the C# gui stuff. I still don't think there is a solid GUI
framework unless you use C++/QT/KDE
> If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java still
> has a fighting chance ... maybe.
It would have a fighting chance. JavaOne is in march and I am hoping that SUN
is planning on having an announcement then. Of course I was expecting an
announcement last year and the year before that and they never came. :)
> If the J2SE was opensourced then it would almost win by default. However Sun
> is nowhere near as agile as MS - still too much of a slow hardware company -
> so they will almost certainly fall down in that area.
The Open Source community would PASTE Microsoft if we could develop the JDK
with our own rules.
> It will be interesting to see how IBM reacts. They have some damn fine VM
> people there, if they were to go the C# path and bring along all the Linux
> peeps then .... who knows ;)
<snip/>
maybe... without some type of accepted community or steward I think that
everyone would just blow it off. GCJ looks cool but if everyone things Java is
dead then there won't be any use for it.
... this stuff really makes me ill :(
Kevin
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
> >
> > Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
> > proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
> > standardized?
> >
> > Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic
> > about Java?
>
> Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
> to get back at SUN? Heck no.
You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as head
on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent
change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource runtimes things are
starting to look interesting.
Technically there are things about C#/CLR/etc that are far superior to Java
(much better meta-data support, no JNI pain, a nicer GUI setup, support for C
based languages, etc) and theres also things that suck (hard to optimize
bytecode, crapola linking model, etc).
*if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of
people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT
that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.
I don't think Sun will lose on high-end or the embedded device market but
everywhere else I think is debatable ;) A lot of people I know who are java
advocates have seriously looked at swapping to C# - at least for the desktop.
Given how weak the C# runtime is now (at least compared to java) this I find
interesting.
If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java
still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then it
would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as MS -
still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost certainly
fall down in that area.
It will be interesting to see how IBM reacts. They have some damn fine VM
people there, if they were to go the C# path and bring along all the Linux
peeps then .... who knows ;)
--
Cheers,
Pete
"You know what a dumbshit the 'average man' on the street is? Well, by
definition, half of them are even dumber than that!"
J.R. "Bob" Dobbs
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 16:58, Kevin A. Burton wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> Sorry for the X-post.
>
Then don't do it.
> I just created a new mailing list:
>
> java-is-dead@entropy.yi.org
>
> You can sign up here:
>
> http://entropy.yi.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/java-is-dead
>
> ...
>
> Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
>
> Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary
> even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized?
>
> Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java?
>
Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
to get back at SUN? Heck no.
> Do you *hate* the JCP?
>
probably too strong a word.
> Are you sick of the fact that SUN keeps throwing new features into the VM and
> bloating it beyond belief?
>
no. I think the VM needs a few new *well engineered* features.
> Do you want SUN to Open Source Java?
>
I think so...I'm not always sure about that.
> Do you want to collaborate around other Open Source Java implementations?
>
perhaps.
> ...
>
> I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
>
no offense but if java is dead, why would you want a mailing list to
beat a dead horse?
> Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead
> mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
>
> Please feel free to forward this email or link to the mailing list from your
> site.
>
> Kevin
>
> - --
> Kevin A. Burton ( burton@apache.org, burton@openprivacy.org, burtonator@acm.org )
> Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
> Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
>
> It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!
> - Emiliano Zapata
>
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Bojan Smojver <bo...@binarix.com>.
Personally, I've always admired people that have the guts to write fast, secure
and flexible software (e.g. Postfix) in C. Java is a trade off in many ways,
some of which might be acceptable and some of which might not, depending on
your current taste. My understanding is that GNU people are coming up with
their own libraries, so not all is lost (maybe). It's just that this double
effort is totally unneccessary, if only Sun could understand that.
As for switching to .NET, I have trouble swallowing anything coming from MS,
especially specifications. I don't have a very strong opinion about Sun, except
that I can't understand the fact that Java still isn't GPL-ed and placed in
control of some foundation like Apache. But you could be right, it could be too
late already.
We can always go back to C and rewrite the whole of Jakarta in it. There would
be a lot of vomiting, but hey, life is a trade off, isn't it?
Bojan
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Re: AW: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
"Juergen Fey" <jf...@well.com> writes:
> Hi,
>
> Java proves to be a reliable technology but some political questions are still
> open and some others - not all - are getting answered in the wrong direction.
>
> There could be a chance to discuss these things during the JavaOne next month.
> Perhaps at Jon`s new place which is not too far away from the Moscone center?
<snip/>
I would be game for this. There are plenty of other places to talk if Jon
doesn't want to host one.
I think it is a good idea.
Kevin
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AW: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Juergen Fey <jf...@well.com>.
Hi,
Java proves to be a reliable technology but some political questions are
still
open and some others - not all - are getting answered in the wrong
direction.
There could be a chance to discuss these things during the JavaOne next
month.
Perhaps at Jon`s new place which is not too far away from the Moscone
center?
gruesse
Juergen Fey
http://www.xerpent.com
Publishingsysteme*Java*Perl*VB*Apache*Servlets*Linux*WindowsXY
Laerchenweg 8 D-85617 Assling Germany
fon:+49-8092-83063 fax: +49-8092-83064 jfey@xerpent.com
PGP-Key: http://www.jfey.com/tuttle/housek/jf.asc
"don`t drive when you`re dead, tom waits"
"Life is not fair, but root password helps!"
-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
Von: burton@universe.yi.org [mailto:burton@universe.yi.org]Im Auftrag
von Kevin A. Burton
Gesendet: Montag, 4. Februar 2002 22:58
An: general@jakarta.apache.org; debian-java@lists.debian.org;
classpath@gnu.org; java@gcc.gnu.org
Betreff: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Sorry for the X-post.
I just created a new mailing list:
java-is-dead@entropy.yi.org
You can sign up here:
http://entropy.yi.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/java-is-dead
...
Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
proprietary
even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized?
Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about
Java?
Do you *hate* the JCP?
Are you sick of the fact that SUN keeps throwing new features into the VM
and
bloating it beyond belief?
Do you want SUN to Open Source Java?
Do you want to collaborate around other Open Source Java implementations?
...
I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead
mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
Please feel free to forward this email or link to the mailing list from your
site.
Kevin
- --
Kevin A. Burton ( burton@apache.org, burton@openprivacy.org,
burtonator@acm.org )
Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!
- Emiliano Zapata
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> writes:
> on 2/5/02 5:16 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org> wrote:
>
> > OK... when you get SUN to Open Source Java you can walk around with your head
> > high... Until then any effort that contributes to this is a Good Thing in my
> > book.
>
> Kevin, I know this is hard for you to believe, but I know for a fact that some
> of your previous efforts actually had a seriously negative impact on Sun's
> decision to eventually open source Java. For example, the license poll that
> you did a while back actually made a huge mess behind the scenes.
Would be nice to know what actually happened. Feedback is very important.
My philosophy on the subject is that being open has its rewards that outweigh
any advantages you would get from being closed.
If anything from the poll scared them off this would have been come out in the
future anyway.
> I'm not saying that things I have done have been perfect and neither is
> Stefano's track record. But honestly, Stefano has done a hell of a lot more
> with regards to getting Sun to open source *anything* than you have.
hell... I am willing to give Stefano the benefit of the doubt. I am not
perfect, but I don't want to argue about who has done more to help out Java. I
don't really care. I just want to move forward and improve on the issue without
any personal attacks...
I don't know what happened but it seems Stefano started attacking me... did I
say anything wrong?.. I don't want to fight... I want to move forward.
<snip/>
> What have you done? As far as I can tell, you created the mess called Jetspeed
> which you disappeared on and abandoned and you have spouted your mouth off
Oh come on jon. In your perspective maybe. We have talked about this in the
past.
If you want to hear what the real scoop is.. come to codecon.
http://www.codecon.org/schedule.html
I am speaking about Reptile on Sunday...
I did make some mistakes WRT Jetspeed ... I am not perfect.
> around here for the last couple years without actually contributing anything.
I am contributing to the Open Source community in other areas... just not Apache
areas.
> Hmmm...that isn't something worth putting on the resume, now is it?
... it IS on my resume!
> > One person would look bad. 1000 people out from of Moscone would ge a good
> > thing.
>
> No, it wouldn't really make a difference. The Sun execs would simply laugh and
> enjoy all the press...
>
> "Hey look at all those angry developers! They must really love Java! Cool!
> That will get us some fun press!"
... maybe. I am not saying that this is the answer.
I just see that a lot of us complain (myself included) but never organize around
a solution. I created the list to help with the solution... that is all.
<snip/>
> > My point was that a lot of just spend a lot of time arguing about this stuff
> > and don't try to correct anything in "the real world".
>
> However, the way that you have been going about things doesn't help anyone or
> anything. Please try a new approach.
<snip/>
... any suggestions?
Kevin
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2002-02-06 at 05:20, Punky Tse wrote:
> >
> > "Hey look at all those angry developers! They must really love Java! Cool!
> > That will get us some fun press!"
>
> > However, the way that you have been going about things doesn't help anyone
> > or anything. Please try a new approach.
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > -jon
> >
>
> all +1.
>
> But Kevin's attitude and courage should be highly appreciated, although I
> believe it would not work... But, at the end of the day, he should learn
> (and earn) something.
>
> Actually, I don't care what language the software was written by. All the
> users' need is a decent, working software, but not programming language.
> So, please get back to work, and write software that works.
>
> If java was dead, use C# then. Or C, C++ or perl. Please do not fall in
> love with any technology, its dangerous... I must warn you.
>
Or be promiscuous ;-)
I've fallen in love with operating systems that do not make it their
regular habit to crash. This excludes anything that has come out of
Redmond, Washington up until now.
> (But currently I fall in love with my iBook...)
>
> :-)
>
> - Punky
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
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http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Punky Tse <pu...@yahoo.com>.
>
> "Hey look at all those angry developers! They must really love Java! Cool!
> That will get us some fun press!"
> However, the way that you have been going about things doesn't help anyone
> or anything. Please try a new approach.
>
> :-)
>
> -jon
>
all +1.
But Kevin's attitude and courage should be highly appreciated, although I
believe it would not work... But, at the end of the day, he should learn
(and earn) something.
Actually, I don't care what language the software was written by. All the
users' need is a decent, working software, but not programming language.
So, please get back to work, and write software that works.
If java was dead, use C# then. Or C, C++ or perl. Please do not fall in
love with any technology, its dangerous... I must warn you.
(But currently I fall in love with my iBook...)
:-)
- Punky
_________________________________________________________
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2/5/02 5:16 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org> wrote:
> OK... when you get SUN to Open Source Java you can walk around with your head
> high... Until then any effort that contributes to this is a Good Thing in my
> book.
Kevin, I know this is hard for you to believe, but I know for a fact that
some of your previous efforts actually had a seriously negative impact on
Sun's decision to eventually open source Java. For example, the license poll
that you did a while back actually made a huge mess behind the scenes.
I'm not saying that things I have done have been perfect and neither is
Stefano's track record. But honestly, Stefano has done a hell of a lot more
with regards to getting Sun to open source *anything* than you have.
Don't forget, he was involved with the discussions that eventually led to
the formation of the Jakarta Project as well as Tomcat, Watchdog and Ant
being made available. The same thing can be said about the XML.apache.org
project.
What have you done? As far as I can tell, you created the mess called
Jetspeed which you disappeared on and abandoned and you have spouted your
mouth off around here for the last couple years without actually
contributing anything. Hmmm...that isn't something worth putting on the
resume, now is it?
> One person would look bad. 1000 people out from of Moscone would ge a good
> thing.
No, it wouldn't really make a difference. The Sun execs would simply laugh
and enjoy all the press...
"Hey look at all those angry developers! They must really love Java! Cool!
That will get us some fun press!"
> It is one of the efforts that sent Dmitry back to Russia ...
Don't forget that the company that he worked for still has a lawsuit against
them. As far as I can tell, he is only back in Russia because the lawmakers
realized that keeping him in jail was a waste of our taxpayers money.
> My point was that a lot of just spend a lot of time arguing about this stuff
> and don't try to correct anything in "the real world".
However, the way that you have been going about things doesn't help anyone
or anything. Please try a new approach.
:-)
-jon
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> writes:
> "Kevin A. Burton" wrote:
>
> > Dont't sit back and do nothing. Sending emails to this list is just a waste
> > of your time.
>
> Try to imagine what makes Sun officials worry more:
>
> - the guy who pushed java technology in the ASF since '97 and was so efficient
> with his java-lover friends that the ASF has more than 70% of its code written
> in Java and now thinks seriously at abandoning the boat because java technical
> evolution can't stand the rate of community evolution
What is your problem!?
OK... when you get SUN to Open Source Java you can walk around with your head
high... Until then any effort that contributes to this is a Good Thing in my
book.
> - the java enthusiasts
One person would look bad. 1000 people out from of Moscone would ge a good
thing.
> who is going to sit in front of the moscone center in order to change Sun
> official's minds about Java licensing saying that they lied to him because
> instead of giving him 100% of their intellectual property, they gave him just
> 90% and now they are keeping the 10% for them
>
> Now tell me: who is wasting his time?
<snip/>
Hm... are you saying that protesting is a waste of time?
It is one of the efforts that sent Dmitry back to Russia ...
My point was that a lot of just spend a lot of time arguing about this stuff and
don't try to correct anything in "the real world".
Kevin
- --
Kevin A. Burton ( burton@apache.org, burton@openprivacy.org, burtonator@acm.org )
Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
Acts performed with a delusive mind produce painful results
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
"Kevin A. Burton" wrote:
> Dont't sit back and do nothing. Sending emails to this list is just a waste of
> your time.
Try to imagine what makes Sun officials worry more:
- the guy who pushed java technology in the ASF since '97 and was so
efficient with his java-lover friends that the ASF has more than 70% of
its code written in Java and now thinks seriously at abandoning the boat
because java technical evolution can't stand the rate of community
evolution
- the java enthusiasts who is going to sit in front of the moscone
center in order to change Sun official's minds about Java licensing
saying that they lied to him because instead of giving him 100% of their
intellectual property, they gave him just 90% and now they are keeping
the 10% for them
Now tell me: who is wasting his time?
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Bojan Smojver <bo...@binarix.com>.
On Wed, 2002-02-06 at 09:19, Kevin A. Burton wrote:
> Don't you want to change things?
Sure. Just wiped the dust off my copy of K&R, "The C Programming
Language".
;-))
Bojan
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@tumbleweed.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: <bu...@openprivacy.org>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
<...snip...>
> Dont't sit back and do nothing. Sending emails to this list is just a
waste of
> your time.
But it's not a waste of *your* time? ;-)
Now that you've set up your own list for this topic, I'd like to suggest you
send your follows up over there instead of here...
--
Martin Cooper
<...snip...>
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org>.
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Hash: SHA1
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> writes:
> Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> >
> > on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
> > >
> > > Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead
> > > mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
> >
> > The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds
> > like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun
> > (neither do online polls)...
> >
> > The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound
> > on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to
> > concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.
>
> In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a couple of
> years:
hah... yeah... right. How much money do they have in the bank?
Don't expect SUN to disappear in any less time than a decade. Even if they did
EVERYTHING wrong from here on out they would still be around. Same with
Microsoft and Oracle.
> if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and yahoo run on huge though
> inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4 machines are starting to beat the
> pants out of Sun boxes and run unix.... where the hell is Sun going to earn
> its money from?
>
> yep, you guessed it right: Java.
It is a valid point. I don't know the numbers though. I would expect at least
1/2 of Java's base to go away if C# sharpens up and looks better while Java is
more proprietary.
Could they make enought money to justify keeping Java proprietary?
Maybe... Enough money for SUN? Probably not.
Look what they did for OpenOffice. They should do this for Java and take
another stab at Microsoft.
<snip/>
>
> Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own
> mail list? yeah, sure.
>
> Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java.
I don't need 10 billion dollars. 100 people collaborating towards this effort
would be enough. Look what the Free Dmitry community did.
We DON'T have to sit around and let other people control our destiny. We can
take a stand! now. We can send (snail) mail to SUN executives, we can gather
outside JavaOne and protest. SUN has lied to us. Whether this is deliberate or
not is another story. I want to move on.
The community is what is important. Look what we did at Apache? No imagine a
fraction of the people here working to get SUN to release Java.
> Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or OSS
> clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it (after 1.4
> is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations and sell
> better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be doing with .NET)
You can always make the argument that legacy systems will still need support.
These are also the same people that will NOT migrate to an Open Source Java
implementation even if it comes from SUN.
> You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software side
> of things.
That is an understatement!
<snip/>
> Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid.
Aren't you mad about this? Don't you want to change things?
Dont't sit back and do nothing. Sending emails to this list is just a waste of
your time.
There are a bunch of things we could do about this. I don't know about you but
I am not smart enough to figure out the best approach. Should we protest
JavaOne? Should we create an online petition for SUN to free Java? Should we
petition Apache to take a stand on this? Should we draw a line in the sand?
Should we start a letter writing campaign?
I don't know.
I do know that the future is not set. There is no fate but what we make for
ourselves.
> Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because Java is
> a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it fast.
It is? If Java is a commercial reality I have yet to see if. A Java commercial
reality will have to compete with a C# commercial reality. Microsoft has a
monopoly and our governent (US) isn't going to do anything about it. A
proprietary Java (even if SUN wants to make money) is going to loose against C#.
We just have to convince SUN of this. They aren't stupid... they are a bunch
of smart guys over there.
<snip/>
> Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are approaching the
> cliff at full speed.
<snip/>
I think we can agree that things are starting to get very uncomfortable. I
don't know what is going to happen. I just don't want to sit back and allow
myself to get steam rolled.
Kevin
- --
Kevin A. Burton ( burton@apache.org, burton@openprivacy.org, burtonator@acm.org )
Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
<snip/>
> >
> Become a strategist. There will always a need for people telling people
> what they should do next. At least for people that does not read these
> lists. ;)
>
Where do I sign? :-) I'm always happy telling people what they should
do next ;-).
-Andy
--
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 11:24, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>>Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>>
>>>on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org> wrote:
>>>
(snip)
>
>>They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided
>>that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice.
>>
>>So they want to earn money on the other two sides:
>>
>> big -> enterprise (J2EE)
>>
>
>possible. They're going about it the wrong way (still).
>
>> small -> embedded (J2ME)
>>
>
>pipe dream. If embedded resources grow substantially (to where embedded
>means a system about as capable as my desktop), Bill G. and the gang
>win.
>
No. Bytecodes + built-in security (sandboxes, etc.) make java a
substantial win for Telephone operators. C# is not yet prepared for
taking this market. Solutions like ActiveX are a mess to deploy and
suffer from logistic (deploy for a hundred hardware variants),
reliability (crashes in user C/C++ code) and big security problems (bad
security model). The telephones that we will see in the next couple of
years will use java. And this is a substantial market (in the thousands
of millions units) where Sun wants to take their license for every
telephone sold, and sell at the same time their java hardware and
expertise (read J2EE) in the server side to the operators and service
providers.
> If it stays small, Palm and K&R win. Sun has to bet on something
>in between or start making Java native chips again.. Its a pipe dream
>of a business plan.
>
I think it is actually working well for Sun, from what I see in their
relation with big mobile operators and handset makers. Whether Sun will
survive to a mature multiplatform C# solution with the ability to run
java applets (midlets...) is another thing. Don't forget that Microsoft
are better when they arrive second to the market (see IBM MS-DOS,
Digital Research solution vs Windows, Lotus/Excel, WordPerfect/Word,
dBase/SQL Server,...)
>
>>why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things
>>that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big
>>fat machines and silicon chips).
>>
don't forget that they have a good sales channel to big corporations
like banks, phone operators, utility companies,... Quite often better
than the one MS has.
>>
>>Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own
>>mail list? yeah, sure.
>>
>>Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java.
>>
>>Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or
>>OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it
>>(after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations
>>and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be
>>doing with .NET)
>>
>>You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software
>>side of things.
>>
>>Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd
>>rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on
>>sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting
>>software to .NET and blah blah blah.
>>
>
>perhaps.
>
I feel like I'm legacy myself. I feel lazy about switching to C# stuff.
I feel older every day that passes ;)
>
>>Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to mak
>>
>>e java solid.
>>
>
>probably (Sun = Corporation, Corporations operate in their own interests
>and not for the public good -- OSS served and possibly serves Sun's
>interests, if that changes so does Sun).
>
I agree that we have been used. We are used every day. But I feel happy
overall with my java experience. Programming in java is funny (like it
was in the Smalltalk days, even with some lisps). Programming against
current MS APIs is *not* fun.
I don't feel abused by the Sun people WRT java. From the beginning I saw
Sun as I see them now. Even if I regret that they do not Open Source
java, the market will never be the same after their (wise) move back then.
>
>>Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because
>>Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it
>>fast.
>>
>>My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
>>Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
>>java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
>>
>
>Think long and hard before you jump on this bandwagon my friend. If
>maintaining cross-platform compatibility with the .NET version is an
>objective for Mono then it will fail. The 3000 lb gorilla will never
>loose control of its illegitimate child.
>
>Regarding C#. I still think I'd rather learn "D" www.digitalmars.com/d
>
I've seen they still have pointers. I will not go there until they drop
them. ;)
WRT crossplatform stuff, time is coming when we will impose *our* laws.
With linux becoming a major player in the OS level (and I bet it will be
a player in the desktop market real soon), crossplatform is beginning to
be their problem, rather than ours. As OpenSource works in public, with
no hidden features, and fast, they will be forced to follow our tracks.
Sure, people will make errors (using propietary traps, relying on
implementation features). It always happens, we do it now. But the
reference is the open platform, not the propietary one.
>
>If mono branches from .NET one starts asking why start with what I'm
>sure has baggage from the Microsoft platform in the first place.
>
>>Interesting enough, this is where Ximian is leading.
>>
>>Or we wait for another mozilla-like miracle.
>>
>>Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are approaching the
>>cliff at full speed.
>>
>
>Agreed. Sun is self-immolating and fast. I really do not see them
>surviving the decade, and I'm skeptical about their survival beyond year
>6 or 7 at least in their present form.
>
You are long sighted. I felt like this when I discovered java very
early. If you look backwards, people has been making a lot of money
safely ignoring java until say 2000. I bet we can do business by waiting
to switch at least a couple years. 6 years looks like infinity to me.
(see when I say I feel legacy?)
>
>I'm really not sure what skillsets I should pick up from here. I'm
>considering not being a programmer at all anymore (professionally) and
>moving more toward the administrative side of things (again I'd never
>give up coding for fun). Seems a safer bet now that we're moving into
>what I predict will be a decade of fad languages, etc.
>
Become a strategist. There will always a need for people telling people
what they should do next. At least for people that does not read these
lists. ;)
>
>-Andy
>
>>--
>>Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>> able to give birth to a dancing star.
>><st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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>>
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 11:24, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> >
> > on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
> > >
> > > Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead
> > > mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
> >
> > The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds
> > like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun
> > (neither do online polls)...
> >
> > The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound
> > on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to
> > concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.
>
> In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a
> couple of years: if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and
> yahoo run on huge though inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4
> machines are starting to beat the pants out of Sun boxes and run
> unix.... where the hell is Sun going to earn its money from?
>
> yep, you guessed it right: Java.
>
unlikely, that's a difficult transition to make. Its easier to become
the next Borland than a
cross-platform-microsoft-like-palm-like-hybrid-thing. Java doesn't
offer sun much of a business plan.
> They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided
> that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice.
>
> So they want to earn money on the other two sides:
>
> big -> enterprise (J2EE)
possible. They're going about it the wrong way (still).
> small -> embedded (J2ME)
>
pipe dream. If embedded resources grow substantially (to where embedded
means a system about as capable as my desktop), Bill G. and the gang
win. If it stays small, Palm and K&R win. Sun has to bet on something
in between or start making Java native chips again.. Its a pipe dream
of a business plan.
> why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things
> that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big
> fat machines and silicon chips).
>
> Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own
> mail list? yeah, sure.
>
> Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java.
>
> Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or
> OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it
> (after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations
> and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be
> doing with .NET)
>
> You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software
> side of things.
>
> Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd
> rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on
> sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting
> software to .NET and blah blah blah.
>
perhaps.
> Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid.
>
probably (Sun = Corporation, Corporations operate in their own interests
and not for the public good -- OSS served and possibly serves Sun's
interests, if that changes so does Sun).
> Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because
> Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it
> fast.
>
> My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
>
Think long and hard before you jump on this bandwagon my friend. If
maintaining cross-platform compatibility with the .NET version is an
objective for Mono then it will fail. The 3000 lb gorilla will never
loose control of its illegitimate child.
Regarding C#. I still think I'd rather learn "D" www.digitalmars.com/d
If mono branches from .NET one starts asking why start with what I'm
sure has baggage from the Microsoft platform in the first place.
> Interesting enough, this is where Ximian is leading.
>
> Or we wait for another mozilla-like miracle.
>
> Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are approaching the
> cliff at full speed.
>
Agreed. Sun is self-immolating and fast. I really do not see them
surviving the decade, and I'm skeptical about their survival beyond year
6 or 7 at least in their present form.
I'm really not sure what skillsets I should pick up from here. I'm
considering not being a programmer at all anymore (professionally) and
moving more toward the administrative side of things (again I'd never
give up coding for fun). Seems a safer bet now that we're moving into
what I predict will be a decade of fad languages, etc.
-Andy
> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>
--
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
I keep telling you:
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/
Get this guy to release it APL and then we can get up and go!
:-)
-Andy
On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 04:28, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> >
> > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
> >
> > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
> > like this about June of 2002.
>
> uh, I take this as a compliment :)
>
> > <sigh>
> >
> > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
> > worth fighting all the battles at once.
>
> Wise words, brother, wise words.
>
> But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
>
> Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> avoid all this.
>
> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>
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http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
You laugh...
IT HAS BEEN PROPOSED!!!
http://www.mail-archive.com/cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org/msg10094.html
On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 15:20, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> >
> > Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> > avoid all this.
> >
>
> I thought you already did ... you mean I *cannot* write device drivers and
> run them on Cocoon? Rats ...
>
> :-)
>
>
> Craig
>
>
> --
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>
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> avoid all this.
>
I thought you already did ... you mean I *cannot* write device drivers and
run them on Cocoon? Rats ...
:-)
Craig
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Micael Padraig Og mac Grene <ca...@harbornet.com>.
Thanx, Andy. There have been such rumours! ;-)
At 08:02 AM 2/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Yes! Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this
>big farce.. We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to
>Bill! Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole
>group!
>
>-Andy
>
>On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
> > Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That
> > amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft?
> >
> > At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
> > >James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > > > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > > > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
> > > >
> > > > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying
> something
> > > > like this about June of 2002.
> > >
> > >uh, I take this as a compliment :)
> > >
> > > > <sigh>
> > > >
> > > > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes
> it's not
> > > > worth fighting all the battles at once.
> > >
> > >Wise words, brother, wise words.
> > >
> > >But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
> > >
> > >Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> > >avoid all this.
> > >
> > >--
> > >Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> > > able to give birth to a dancing star.
> > ><st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
> > >--------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > >For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
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> format to java
>http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
> - fix java generics!
>The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
>vote.
>-Ambassador Kosh
>
>
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
> Let's see: Microsoft is going to be a better deal in terms of open code
> than Sun Microsystems?
err ... you trolling ? guess so.
> I guess since I am fed up because Sun won't let me have free rein with
> their code, I should ballyhoo C#, which will be 100 times more
> restrictive.
actually the C# language is less restrictive. The PMC head of jakarta
actually sits as a spec lead (or chair or whatever the ECMA calls it) on one
of the standardization groups.
Compare this to the Java language which can not be reimplemented outside of
sun legally. Fun eh?
Of course no need to lets facts get in the way pof a good religion.
> Why don't we get a dialogue going on
> why Sun is doing what it is doing and work towards solving the problem
a few people have tried that and look where it got.
> rather than supporting Mickey Mouse who would trade us for a pad of butter,
> if it were not for Sun's competition looming in the background.
intelligent argument. I think you left out phrases like "Microshaft" or
"Micro$loth" or whatever it is you kiddies use these days.
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Cheers,
Pete
*------------------------------------------------------*
| Despite your efforts to be a romantic hero, you will |
| gradually evolve into a postmodern plot device. |
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Micael Padraig Og mac Grene <ca...@harbornet.com>.
Let's see: Microsoft is going to be a better deal in terms of open code
than Sun Microsystems? Hmmm? Guess I must have missed the banana boat on
this one.
I guess since I am fed up because Sun won't let me have free rein with
their code, I should ballyhoo C#, which will be 100 times more
restrictive. Yah, that's the ticket. Why don't we get a dialogue going on
why Sun is doing what it is doing and work towards solving the problem
rather than supporting Mickey Mouse who would trade us for a pad of butter,
if it were not for Sun's competition looming in the background.
Micael
At 07:12 PM 2/25/02 +1100, you wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:29, Colin Chalmers wrote:
> > It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just
> > because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people
> > seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C#
> > thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful???
>
>"mickysoft" ? Hmmm ...
>
>The Java people are not running scared - however many are fed up with the
>steward of Java. There is plenty of people who would be willing to do a lot
>to make java a betweer platform but due to licensing restraints can not.
>
>Theres plenty of crap features in java that could be easily fixed given an
>open platform but wont be because it is not.
>
> > Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps
> > no bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C#
> > is a bit premature don't you think?
>
>Whos thinking? Of the two Apache projects that I am most involved with - both
>already have C# ports of parts or all of them. There is ongoing porting of
>other parts of these projects aswell. There is also external ports of other
>projects I rely upon (namely a net port of junit). When the time comes when I
>am forced to switch then it will be easy enough to do.
>
>I don't plan to ditch java just yet. JDK1.5 will contain enough improvements
>in the core framework that it will be "good enough" for almost all my needs.
>However thats a long way off - if the mono team or one of the other
>opensource C# clones were to get hald as good as java is now then I would
>definetly consider switchin - and I know a lot of other people who would also
>do so.
>
>Its about putting control back into the developers hands and all really
>depends on the way Sun handles it from here on in.
>
>--
>Cheers,
>
>Pete
>
>Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
> -- Voltaire
>
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:29, Colin Chalmers wrote:
> It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just
> because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people
> seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C#
> thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful???
"mickysoft" ? Hmmm ...
The Java people are not running scared - however many are fed up with the
steward of Java. There is plenty of people who would be willing to do a lot
to make java a betweer platform but due to licensing restraints can not.
Theres plenty of crap features in java that could be easily fixed given an
open platform but wont be because it is not.
> Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps
> no bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C#
> is a bit premature don't you think?
Whos thinking? Of the two Apache projects that I am most involved with - both
already have C# ports of parts or all of them. There is ongoing porting of
other parts of these projects aswell. There is also external ports of other
projects I rely upon (namely a net port of junit). When the time comes when I
am forced to switch then it will be easy enough to do.
I don't plan to ditch java just yet. JDK1.5 will contain enough improvements
in the core framework that it will be "good enough" for almost all my needs.
However thats a long way off - if the mono team or one of the other
opensource C# clones were to get hald as good as java is now then I would
definetly consider switchin - and I know a lot of other people who would also
do so.
Its about putting control back into the developers hands and all really
depends on the way Sun handles it from here on in.
--
Cheers,
Pete
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
-- Voltaire
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Colin Chalmers <co...@maxware.nl>.
To build on what Micael said,
It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just
because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people
seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C#
thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful???
Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps no
bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C# is a
bit premature don't you think?
/Colin
> Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That
> amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft?
>
> At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
> >James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> > >
> > > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
> > >
> > > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying
something
> > > like this about June of 2002.
> >
> >uh, I take this as a compliment :)
> >
> > > <sigh>
> > >
> > > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's
not
> > > worth fighting all the battles at once.
> >
> >Wise words, brother, wise words.
> >
> >But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
> >
> >Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> >avoid all this.
> >
> >--
> >Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> > able to give birth to a dancing star.
> ><st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Yes! Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this
big farce.. We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to
Bill! Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole
group!
-Andy
On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
> Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That
> amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft?
>
> At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
> >James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> > >
> > > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
> > >
> > > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
> > > like this about June of 2002.
> >
> >uh, I take this as a compliment :)
> >
> > > <sigh>
> > >
> > > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
> > > worth fighting all the battles at once.
> >
> >Wise words, brother, wise words.
> >
> >But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
> >
> >Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> >avoid all this.
> >
> >--
> >Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> > able to give birth to a dancing star.
> ><st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>
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http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by James Duncan Davidson <du...@x180.net>.
On 2/24/02 13:45, "Micael Padraig Og mac Grene" <ca...@harbornet.com>
wrote:
> Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That
> amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft?
Troll.
.:..:.:.:::.:::...:.::::.:::.::.::.::::.::::.:::x180:james duncan davidson
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Micael Padraig Og mac Grene <ca...@harbornet.com>.
Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That
amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft?
At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
>James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> >
> > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
> >
> > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
> > like this about June of 2002.
>
>uh, I take this as a compliment :)
>
> > <sigh>
> >
> > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
> > worth fighting all the battles at once.
>
>Wise words, brother, wise words.
>
>But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
>
>Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
>avoid all this.
>
>--
>Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> able to give birth to a dancing star.
><st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>--
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by James Duncan Davidson <du...@x180.net>.
On 2/24/02 01:28, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
I admit that I have fear and loathing of the .NET moniker and all that
Microsoft is associating it with. But as far as the CLI and the class
libraries, well, quite frankly they don't suck. They're not great, I prefer
Java, but they don't suck.
Java will still be around for a long time no matter what happens. It's been
too important an event in software engineering to become dead. But the
licensing issues are going to have a non trivial effect on what happens.
> Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> avoid all this.
Heh. :)
.:..:.:.:::.:::...:.::::.:::.::.::.::::.::::.:::x180:james duncan davidson
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
James Duncan Davidson wrote:
>
> On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
>
> Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
> like this about June of 2002.
uh, I take this as a compliment :)
> <sigh>
>
> You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
> worth fighting all the battles at once.
Wise words, brother, wise words.
But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
avoid all this.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by James Duncan Davidson <du...@x180.net>.
On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
like this about June of 2002.
<sigh>
You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
worth fighting all the battles at once.
.:..:.:.:::.:::...:.::::.:::.::.::.::::.::::.:::x180:james duncan davidson
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>
> on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org> wrote:
>
> > I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
> >
> > Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead
> > mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
>
> The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds
> like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun
> (neither do online polls)...
>
> The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound
> on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to
> concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.
In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a
couple of years: if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and
yahoo run on huge though inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4
machines are starting to beat the pants out of Sun boxes and run
unix.... where the hell is Sun going to earn its money from?
yep, you guessed it right: Java.
They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided
that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice.
So they want to earn money on the other two sides:
big -> enterprise (J2EE)
small -> embedded (J2ME)
why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things
that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big
fat machines and silicon chips).
Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own
mail list? yeah, sure.
Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java.
Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or
OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it
(after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations
and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be
doing with .NET)
You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software
side of things.
Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd
rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on
sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting
software to .NET and blah blah blah.
Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid.
Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because
Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it
fast.
My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
Interesting enough, this is where Ximian is leading.
Or we wait for another mozilla-like miracle.
Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are approaching the
cliff at full speed.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> writes:
> on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org> wrote:
>
> > I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
> >
> > Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead
> > mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
>
> The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds like
> a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun
> (neither do online polls)...
>
> The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound on
> their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to
> concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.
Well there really isn't any place to organize an effort like this... AKA
java-is-dead :)
... and yes I agree. SUN is VERY stubborn even when faced with an inevitable
fact of life.
I just don't want to scrap all the Java work I have done over the last few
years just because SUN managers can't pull their heads out of the sand :(
Kevin
- --
Kevin A. Burton ( burton@apache.org, burton@openprivacy.org, burtonator@acm.org )
Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!
- Emiliano Zapata
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Arnaud Vandyck <ar...@ulg.ac.be>.
hgo@slib.fr wrote:
> Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services
> instead of just software.
They already sell services :)
-- Arnaud, STE-Formations Informatiques, fapse, ULg, .BE
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Ya'll are a bit harsh. You expect and old school unix server
manufacturer to shed its evil ways (learning from the mistakes of unix
divergence) and become enlightened over night. Java was WAY more then I
would have expected from Sun. Lets not turn our chance to change things
into a "Sun Sucks-fest".
-Andy
On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 21:47, Kevin A. Burton wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> hgo@slib.fr writes:
> <snip/>
>
> >
> > But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants API like
> > javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for servlets. Nota, that
> > these APIs are mandatory to build and use the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which make me
> > and others pretty bad.
>
> Yes... I couldn't agree more. SUN takes all the NEW CODE and make it
> proprietary and continually bloats the JDK. Thanks guys ! :(
>
> > Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services instead of
> > just software.
>
> ... SUN and "learn" shouldn't be in the same sentence :)
>
> Kevin
>
> - --
> Kevin A. Burton ( burton@apache.org, burton@openprivacy.org, burtonator@acm.org )
> Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
> Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
>
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http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org>.
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"James Strachan" <ja...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> > on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, "Aaron Smuts" <aa...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107
> > > (JCACHE).
> > >
> > > Aaron
> >
> > Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person there
> > about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal.
> >
> > Simple:
> >
> > JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle will own
> > the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this >
> wildly.
>
> I've asked Jerry the Oracle guy several times (off-list) and he claims that
> one day Oracle will commit to releasing an open source reference
> implementation - but I'm still waiting for an official announcement - and its
> been 5 months and counting...
<snip/>
If you believe this you are very naive.
SUN had said for years and years that Java would be pushed through a standards
committee. At the time I didn't believe them but didn't care as much about open
standards.
Now I know better.
Kevin
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Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
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bounce. bounce. bounce. bounce. bounce. bounce. bounce. bounce. bounce. bounce.
bounce. bounce. bounce. bounce. bounce.
- Fatboy Slim
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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Aaron Smuts <aa...@verizon.net>.
> Jerry Bortvedt
> <jerry.bortvedt@o To:
[NAME OMITTED],> racle.com> cc:
> Subject: Re: OCS4J
availability
> 06/28/2001 02:37
> PM
>
>
>
> Hi [NAME OMITTED],
>
> Try http://otn.oracle.com/products/ocs4j/content.html I don't off
> hand know what the licensing agreement is for this, so whether it is
> free probably depends on how you want to use it.
>
> Jerry
>
> [NAME OMITTED],wrote:
>
> > Hi Jerry!
> > I am interested in using OCS4J NOW. Is Oracle offering OCS4J as a
> > separate free package (I checked OTN and found nothing). Thnaks in
> > advance!
> >
> > [NAME OMITTED],
> (See attached file: jerry.bortvedt.vcf)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Strachan [mailto:james_strachan@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 1:29 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
>
> > on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, "Aaron Smuts" <aa...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to
JSR107
> > > (JCACHE).
> > >
> > > Aaron
> >
> > Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person
there
> > about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as
vocal.
> >
> > Simple:
> >
> > JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle
will
> own
> > the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about
this
> > wildly.
>
> I've asked Jerry the Oracle guy several times (off-list) and he claims
> that
> one day Oracle will commit to releasing an open source reference
> implementation - but I'm still waiting for an official announcement -
and
> its been 5 months and counting...
>
> James
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
>
> Do You Yahoo!?
>
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
> on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, "Aaron Smuts" <aa...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107
> > (JCACHE).
> >
> > Aaron
>
> Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person there
> about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal.
>
> Simple:
>
> JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle will
own
> the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this
> wildly.
I've asked Jerry the Oracle guy several times (off-list) and he claims that
one day Oracle will commit to releasing an open source reference
implementation - but I'm still waiting for an official announcement - and
its been 5 months and counting...
James
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org>.
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Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> writes:
> on 2/4/02 9:53 PM, "Aaron Smuts" <aa...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Hmmn. So what is the significance? What does this mean for
> > implementations? Could Oracle charge a fee, if they wanted, or prevent
> > others from implementing it? What are the worse case scenarios? What
> > is the purpose (said, actual . . .) of the JSR?
> >
> > Aaron
>
> If only I wasn't under an NDA and could forward the proposed license to you...
Yeah... it is a good thing that the JCP is:
" an open organization of international Java developers and licensees whose
charter is to develop and revise Java technology"
... doesn't sound very open here...
Kevin
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Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
-Albert Einstein
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2/4/02 9:53 PM, "Aaron Smuts" <aa...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Hmmn. So what is the significance? What does this mean for
> implementations? Could Oracle charge a fee, if they wanted, or prevent
> others from implementing it? What are the worse case scenarios? What
> is the purpose (said, actual . . .) of the JSR?
>
> Aaron
If only I wasn't under an NDA and could forward the proposed license to
you...
-jon
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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Aaron Smuts <aa...@verizon.net>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:jon@latchkey.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:29 AM
> To: general@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
>
> on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, "Aaron Smuts" <aa...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107
> > (JCACHE).
> >
> > Aaron
>
> Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person
there
> about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal.
>
> Simple:
>
> JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle
will
> own
> the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this
> wildly.
Hmmn. So what is the significance? What does this mean for
implementations? Could Oracle charge a fee, if they wanted, or prevent
others from implementing it? What are the worse case scenarios? What
is the purpose (said, actual . . .) of the JSR?
Aaron
>
> -jon
>
>
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, "Aaron Smuts" <aa...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107
> (JCACHE).
>
> Aaron
Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person there
about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal.
Simple:
JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle will own
the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this
wildly.
-jon
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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Aaron Smuts <aa...@verizon.net>.
Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107
(JCACHE).
Aaron
> -----Original Message-----
> From: burton@universe.yi.org [mailto:burton@universe.yi.org] On Behalf
Of
> Kevin A. Burton
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 9:48 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> hgo@slib.fr writes:
> <snip/>
>
> >
> > But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants
API
> like
> > javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for servlets.
Nota,
> that
> > these APIs are mandatory to build and use the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which
make
> me
> > and others pretty bad.
>
> Yes... I couldn't agree more. SUN takes all the NEW CODE and make it
> proprietary and continually bloats the JDK. Thanks guys ! :(
>
> > Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services
> instead of
> > just software.
>
> ... SUN and "learn" shouldn't be in the same sentence :)
>
> Kevin
>
> - --
> Kevin A. Burton ( burton@apache.org, burton@openprivacy.org,
> burtonator@acm.org )
> Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
> Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web -
http://relativity.yi.org/
>
> Copyright exists to improve science not to preserve the rights of the
> author.
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
hgo@slib.fr writes:
<snip/>
>
> But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants API like
> javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for servlets. Nota, that
> these APIs are mandatory to build and use the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which make me
> and others pretty bad.
Yes... I couldn't agree more. SUN takes all the NEW CODE and make it
proprietary and continually bloats the JDK. Thanks guys ! :(
> Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services instead of
> just software.
... SUN and "learn" shouldn't be in the same sentence :)
Kevin
- --
Kevin A. Burton ( burton@apache.org, burton@openprivacy.org, burtonator@acm.org )
Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
Copyright exists to improve science not to preserve the rights of the author.
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by hg...@slib.fr.
> The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list
> sounds
> like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against
> Sun
> (neither do online polls)...
>
> The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then
> pound
> on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get
> them to
> concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.
I hope that Sun will recall from its previous mistakes, like
putting Solaris in OSS just when Linux was so widely used on Unix
boxes that it became a de-facto reference in business even considered
by IT.
May be they will wake-up when MS .NET will start to populate
70% of the Web Services of the Planet, at that time they'll propose
Java to OSS.
But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants
API like javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for
servlets. Nota, that these APIs are mandatory to build and use
the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which make me and others pretty bad.
Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services
instead of just software.
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, "Kevin A. Burton" <bu...@openprivacy.org> wrote:
> I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
>
> Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead
> mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds
like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun
(neither do online polls)...
The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound
on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to
concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.
-jon
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