Re: Screens and Layouts ... the bulb is brighter now ...

[Joe Terry <jo...@knowself.com>]

skipped over some of the
> subtleties that seemed to be obvious.  If you have any specific questions,
> please post them to the list and we will attempt to answer them.

I have one specific question!

How do I use Turbine to get my work done!

Joe Terry

==========================================================

Excerpt from message from "Scott Eade" on Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:37:10 -0700

========================================================
Check this message for details:
http://www.mail-archive.com/turbine-user%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03447.html
This information should really be appended to the howto.

I have actually abandoned the work I did on extending
TurbineUser and reverted to the first method until I have
aditional time available to consider other possible solutions.

Cheers,

Scott
=================================================
Scott,

Now that I have found the message above, I understand why I thought the
"Extend User Howto" was confused and confusing.

I would remove it from the site until a consensis is formed on the right
techniques to use. Giving new users dead ends or worse data corrupting
techniques ....

========================
This worked well until it came to invoking TurbineUser.save()
which fails to save any of the related objects that may have been
added to the TurbineUser object by way of the torque methods
generated because of foreign key definitions.  These methods are
generated and appear to be useful, but at the end of the day they
don't perform their advertised function of associating the added
data with the TurbineUser record (worse than that, the data is
simply discarded).
======================

... to try is not the best way to encourage use of Turbine.

Joe Terry
Turbine newbie with real work to accomplish!

===========================================================

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Eade" <se...@backstagetech.com.au>
To: "Turbine Users List" <tu...@jakarta.apache.org>; "Joe Terry"
<jo...@knowself.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: Screens and Layouts ... the bulb is dim ...


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Terry" <jo...@knowself.com>
>
> Turbine does have a fairly steep learning curve, the trick is to
> concentrate on one area at a time.  Spend the time to figure
> out how the particular area works and then move on to the
> next.
>
> > A) Expanding the "Turbine_User" table and creating another table with a
> > foreign key so that my users will have a set of persistent properties.
(I
> > tried the "Extend User Howto" and it was very confused and confusing,
I'll
> > try again, but we need more coherent documentation)
>
> It is a shame you found the Extend User Howto difficult to understand.
> I guess the problem is that it was written by someone that had been
> using turbine and torque for a few months and perhaps the author (yours
> truly, enhancing work of others before me) skipped over some of the
> subtleties that seemed to be obvious.  If you have any specific questions,
> please post them to the list and we will attempt to answer them.
>
> > B) Managing database access to several tables and preparing associated
> > screens.
>
> You need to separate this into two different problems.  For database
access
> turbine provides torque - read the docs, define your schema and away you
> go.  For the screens you need do define your template structure and the
> screen
> classes or pull tools that will go with them.  Newapp should be fine for
the
> figuring out the general approach, but it does not currently use an
> application
> pull tool (implementation of a pull tool is well worth the up front
effort).
>
> > C) Getting logging to work so that activities on the site can be
monitored
> > and quantified.
>
> You can use TurbineResources.properties to switch over to Log4J which
> provides all sorts of great logging features, examples of many of these
can
> be found in TR.props.  I would imagine you ought to get well into problems
> A and B above before this is really an issue.
>
> > Anyone have a more developed application than "newapp" that comes with
the
> > TDK that I can look at?
>
> Apart from an application pull tool and intake (used for server side
> validation of forms) newapp provides a good example of many of
> the features of turbine.  It's simplicity is very helpful when you are
> new to turbine.
>
> I think you are more likely to get helpful answers to specific questions
> that
> indicate what you have tried so far and what is going wrong, or the
> particular aspect of turbine you are finding confusing than by asking the
> more general questions such as those you have asked in this message.
>
> HTH,
>
> Scott
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>


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Re: Screens and Layouts ... the bulb is brighter now ...

[Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au>]

Joe,

I see you have been busy reading the archives - that is an excellent
way of extracting knowledge from the group.

I think the issue is that turbine, and for that matter many open source
projects, evolve over time as developers contribute and users find
new and interesting ways of doing things.

The desire to extend TURBINE_USER was frequently expressed
and frequently discussed.  A couple of people put together the
original Extend User Howto which was later enhanced to cover
more detail of the steps involved.

The fact that I then went on and discovered a flaw does not
invalidate the approach entirely, but it does mean people have to
be careful about what they are doing if they chose to go down
the identified path.

Removing the Extend User Howto would only put us back to
where we were at the beginning, with ad hoc queries cropping up
left and right about extending the TURBINE_USER table.  Here
is what really needs to occur:

1. As quoted below, the flaw needs to be highlighted in the Howto
along with a description of how the documented solution can be
safely used.

2. Those people interested in resolving the issue can discuss
possible solutions and work on enhancing turbine so that the
problem is resolved.

Having a good description of the problem can only help us along
the path to the solution.

I myself am too busy right now to contribute to this effort and
as it involves the heart of the turbine security module and will
impact other developments such as the ldap integration work
mentioned in the past I think a few more heads need to be
involved to move forward on this.

Who knows, perhaps in a couple of months I will have some
time available to start digging and asking the necessary specific
questions ;-)

I believe the archived message you quote from includes details
of the workaround I currently use.  Another, perhaps better
solution would be to extend TURBINE_USER as documented
and then avoid use of the TurbineUser class for saving other
objects.

Regards,

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Terry" <jo...@knowself.com>
To: "Turbine Users List" <tu...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 4:51 AM
Subject: Re: Screens and Layouts ... the bulb is brighter now ...


> skipped over some of the
> > subtleties that seemed to be obvious.  If you have any specific
questions,
> > please post them to the list and we will attempt to answer them.
>
> I have one specific question!
>
> How do I use Turbine to get my work done!
>
> Joe Terry
>
> ==========================================================
>
> Excerpt from message from "Scott Eade" on Wed, 17 Oct 2001 20:37:10 -0700
>
> ========================================================
> Check this message for details:
>
http://www.mail-archive.com/turbine-user%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03447.html
> This information should really be appended to the howto.
>
> I have actually abandoned the work I did on extending
> TurbineUser and reverted to the first method until I have
> aditional time available to consider other possible solutions.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Scott
> =================================================
> Scott,
>
> Now that I have found the message above, I understand why I thought the
> "Extend User Howto" was confused and confusing.
>
> I would remove it from the site until a consensis is formed on the right
> techniques to use. Giving new users dead ends or worse data corrupting
> techniques ....
>
> ========================
> This worked well until it came to invoking TurbineUser.save()
> which fails to save any of the related objects that may have been
> added to the TurbineUser object by way of the torque methods
> generated because of foreign key definitions.  These methods are
> generated and appear to be useful, but at the end of the day they
> don't perform their advertised function of associating the added
> data with the TurbineUser record (worse than that, the data is
> simply discarded).
> ======================
>
> ... to try is not the best way to encourage use of Turbine.
>
> Joe Terry
> Turbine newbie with real work to accomplish!
>
> ===========================================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Eade" <se...@backstagetech.com.au>
> To: "Turbine Users List" <tu...@jakarta.apache.org>; "Joe Terry"
> <jo...@knowself.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 6:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Screens and Layouts ... the bulb is dim ...
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Terry" <jo...@knowself.com>
> >
> > Turbine does have a fairly steep learning curve, the trick is to
> > concentrate on one area at a time.  Spend the time to figure
> > out how the particular area works and then move on to the
> > next.
> >
> > > A) Expanding the "Turbine_User" table and creating another table with
a
> > > foreign key so that my users will have a set of persistent properties.
> (I
> > > tried the "Extend User Howto" and it was very confused and confusing,
> I'll
> > > try again, but we need more coherent documentation)
> >
> > It is a shame you found the Extend User Howto difficult to understand.
> > I guess the problem is that it was written by someone that had been
> > using turbine and torque for a few months and perhaps the author (yours
> > truly, enhancing work of others before me) skipped over some of the
> > subtleties that seemed to be obvious.  If you have any specific
questions,
> > please post them to the list and we will attempt to answer them.
> >
> > > B) Managing database access to several tables and preparing associated
> > > screens.
> >
> > You need to separate this into two different problems.  For database
> access
> > turbine provides torque - read the docs, define your schema and away you
> > go.  For the screens you need do define your template structure and the
> > screen
> > classes or pull tools that will go with them.  Newapp should be fine for
> the
> > figuring out the general approach, but it does not currently use an
> > application
> > pull tool (implementation of a pull tool is well worth the up front
> effort).
> >
> > > C) Getting logging to work so that activities on the site can be
> monitored
> > > and quantified.
> >
> > You can use TurbineResources.properties to switch over to Log4J which
> > provides all sorts of great logging features, examples of many of these
> can
> > be found in TR.props.  I would imagine you ought to get well into
problems
> > A and B above before this is really an issue.
> >
> > > Anyone have a more developed application than "newapp" that comes with
> the
> > > TDK that I can look at?
> >
> > Apart from an application pull tool and intake (used for server side
> > validation of forms) newapp provides a good example of many of
> > the features of turbine.  It's simplicity is very helpful when you are
> > new to turbine.
> >
> > I think you are more likely to get helpful answers to specific questions
> > that
> > indicate what you have tried so far and what is going wrong, or the
> > particular aspect of turbine you are finding confusing than by asking
the
> > more general questions such as those you have asked in this message.
> >
> > HTH,
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>


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