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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> on 2005/12/16 22:01:56 UTC
@domain for Incubator mailing lists
There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put mailing lists
for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued for the
current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm also going
to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to ensure
that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that status.
The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain of the TLP
into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for this had
to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the eyebrowse
archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing lists,
and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is fairly
straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
@incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project resources,
e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
--- Noel
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Re: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 16, 2005, at 5:35 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> My personal preference is to have incubated sub-projects use
> mailing lists and websites within the TLP containing a notice
> header that the project is under incubation (and may die). My
> understanding is that you feel having the email address containing
> the word "incubator" will warn users, and I believe that we can
> achieve the same (or better) with a mail footer that contains the
> notice. Note: we already have footers automatically added to every
> email.
>
> Regardless, my desire for consistency vastly out weighs my
> arguments above, so if the this policy change is approved by the
> incubator community, I would like to see all mailing lists (with
> the exception of the few that are about to graduate) be changed to
> @incubator.
To what end?
>
> -dain
>
> On Dec 16, 2005, at 1:30 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>
>> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>> since it's so easy to move them, should we move the latest
>>> projects coming into incubator to @incubator?
>>
>> If the list is relatively new, then yes.
>>
>> It would seem silly to do this to a project that's been around 6 mos+
>> and is nearing graduation (or the -other- alternative disposition).
>>
>>> On Dec 16, 2005, at 4:01 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the
>>>> domain of the TLP
>>>> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON
>>>> for this had
>>>> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the
>>>> eyebrowse
>>>> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move
>>>> mailing lists,
>>>> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it
>>>> is fairly
>>>> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>>>>
>>>> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
>>>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project
>>>> resources,
>>>> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>>
>> +1
>>
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>
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RE: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> My personal preference is to have incubated sub-projects use mailing
> lists and websites within the TLP containing a notice header that the
> project is under incubation
The inclusion of a footer, perhaps an abbreviated form of the disclaimer
with a URL to the full one, seems a good idea.
Having all resources under the incubator domain was the original requirement
and desire of the Incubator PMC, relaxed only because of technical issues
that no longer apply. These are probational projects, and the PRC (amongst
others) wants to ensure that the incubator branding on these projects is
crystal clear. That includes to people who see nothing other than a URL or
e-mail address.
> if the this policy change is approved by the incubator [PMC]
> I would like to see all mailing lists (with the exception of
> the few that are about to graduate) be changed to @incubator.
Geir is making a list right now, and we can put .qmail files in place to
redirect while people adjust.
--- Noel
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Re: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
My personal preference is to have incubated sub-projects use mailing
lists and websites within the TLP containing a notice header that the
project is under incubation (and may die). My understanding is that
you feel having the email address containing the word "incubator"
will warn users, and I believe that we can achieve the same (or
better) with a mail footer that contains the notice. Note: we already
have footers automatically added to every email.
Regardless, my desire for consistency vastly out weighs my arguments
above, so if the this policy change is approved by the incubator
community, I would like to see all mailing lists (with the exception
of the few that are about to graduate) be changed to @incubator.
-dain
On Dec 16, 2005, at 1:30 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> since it's so easy to move them, should we move the latest
>> projects coming into incubator to @incubator?
>
> If the list is relatively new, then yes.
>
> It would seem silly to do this to a project that's been around 6 mos+
> and is nearing graduation (or the -other- alternative disposition).
>
>> On Dec 16, 2005, at 4:01 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the
>>> domain of the TLP
>>> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for
>>> this had
>>> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the
>>> eyebrowse
>>> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move
>>> mailing lists,
>>> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it
>>> is fairly
>>> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>>>
>>> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
>>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project
>>> resources,
>>> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>
> +1
>
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Re: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> since it's so easy to move them, should we move the latest projects
> coming into incubator to @incubator?
If the list is relatively new, then yes.
It would seem silly to do this to a project that's been around 6 mos+
and is nearing graduation (or the -other- alternative disposition).
> On Dec 16, 2005, at 4:01 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain of the TLP
>> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for this had
>> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the eyebrowse
>> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing lists,
>> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is fairly
>> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>>
>> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project resources,
>> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
+1
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Re: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
since it's so easy to move them, should we move the latest projects
coming into incubator to @incubator?
geir
On Dec 16, 2005, at 4:01 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put
> mailing lists
> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued
> for the
> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm
> also going
> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to
> ensure
> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that
> status.
>
> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain
> of the TLP
> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for
> this had
> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the
> eyebrowse
> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing
> lists,
> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is
> fairly
> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>
> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project
> resources,
> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
+1 from me.
On 12/17/05, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
>
> +1 from me.
>
> --- Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
>
>
> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put mailing lists
> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued for the
> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm also going
> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to ensure
> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that status.
>
> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain of the TLP
> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for this had
> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the eyebrowse
> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing lists,
> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is fairly
> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>
> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project resources,
> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@gmail.com>.
-0 for the same reason as Cliff; I'd much rather folks not have to
change mail lists (even if its not hard for infrastructure to
change). There is already a status file so its obvious to anyone who
cares what the status is of a project, I don't see why we need to
force email addresses to reflect the status as well.
On 20 Dec 2005, at 01:39, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> On 12/17/05, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>> Please vote on the following:
>>
>> New mailing lists should be created under the
>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
>> the other project resources, e.g., the web
>> site and SVN subtree.
>
> -0, and here's why:
>
> - I think identification of the incubating status of projects is very
> important, but I personally prefer Dain's suggestion of adding a
> footer message to mailing list posts (maybe with a shorter version of
> the disclaimer required in READMEs), which might be more effective
> than the mailing list address.
>
> - I think that the domain name should reflect the sponsoring project,
> whether that is the Incubator PMC or some other PMC.
>
> - I would have been -1, if it wasn't for the fact that Noel says that
> it is a minimal infra cost to move mailing lists now.
>
> Cliff
>
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>
James
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/17/05, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
-0, and here's why:
- I think identification of the incubating status of projects is very
important, but I personally prefer Dain's suggestion of adding a
footer message to mailing list posts (maybe with a shorter version of
the disclaimer required in READMEs), which might be more effective
than the mailing list address.
- I think that the domain name should reflect the sponsoring project,
whether that is the Incubator PMC or some other PMC.
- I would have been -1, if it wasn't for the fact that Noel says that
it is a minimal infra cost to move mailing lists now.
Cliff
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Mads Toftum <ma...@toftum.dk>.
On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 11:49:14PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
>
Absolutely - it is very important that a project under incubation isn't
easily mistaken for a graduated project.
vh
Mads Toftum
--
`Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
+1
On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 11:49:14PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
>
> +1 from me.
>
> --- Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
>
>
> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put mailing lists
> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued for the
> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm also going
> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to ensure
> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that status.
>
> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain of the TLP
> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for this had
> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the eyebrowse
> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing lists,
> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is fairly
> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>
> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project resources,
> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Noel Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
+1 from me.
-David
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Fwd: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
If you all have any comments on this discussion, please send them to
general AT incubator.apache.org.
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>
> Date: December 20, 2005 1:55:39 AM PST
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
> Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org
>
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 11:49:14PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> Please vote on the following:
>>
>> New mailing lists should be created under the
>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
>> the other project resources, e.g., the web
>> site and SVN subtree.
>
> +0
>
> (...)
>> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put
>> mailing lists
>> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued
>> for the
>> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm
>> also going
>> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
>> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to
>> ensure
>> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that
>> status.
>
> Indeed. Even in the mind of our own developers it seems.
>
>> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain
>> of the TLP
>> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for
>> this had
>> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the
>> eyebrowse
>> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing
>> lists,
>> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is
>> fairly
>> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>
> Changing a mailing list is stil painful "further downstream". Eg
> with the MARC
> archive or mail-archive.com or gmane or whatever. In the HTTP
> space, we have lots
> of tools for URI management (eg mod_rewrite, Redirect,
> RedirectMatch), in the
> email space (eg mailto:foo@apache.org) we don't have it (we just
> have a simple form
> of a "Redirect" that doesn't propagate, eg we don't have a "Moved
> Permanently").
> Hence, I remain of the opinion that effort should be taken to make
> email addresses
> "As permanent as possible".
>
> I'll assert there are other concerns that overrule this technical
> argument (eg
> those you gave above and the ones mads listed), but for reference
> purposes :-)
>
>> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project
>> resources,
>> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>
> - Leo
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Leo Simons wrote:
>
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Changing a mailing list is stil painful "further downstream".
> > Eg with the MARC archive or mail-archive.com or gmane or
> > whatever.
>
> We don't support any of those. We provide the raw and mod_mbox archives,
> and those are what we support. As you said, "there are other concerns that
> overrule this technical argument."
When Cocoon moved from xml.apache.org to cocoon.apache.org
some of us had similar concerns about the foreign archives.
There was no problem. Marc etc. still function properly.
-David
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Paul Querna <ch...@force-elite.com>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> We don't support any of those.
>
> Who's "we"? As a user, I still prefer marc over mail-archives a real lot
> and am happy about any Apache project that's available on Marc.
mod_mbox[1] accepts patches. Feel free to help for any part of mod_mbox
or mail-archives.apache.org.
I really could use some help with integrating Lucene or another method
to do full text searching of the archives right now. But help with any
part is always welcome.
-Paul
[1] http://httpd.apache.org/mod_mbox/
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 12/20/05, Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > We don't support any of those.
>
> Who's "we"?
The Apache Software Foundation. Those other archives are maintained outside
of the ASF, by people who most likely have no affiliation with the ASF.
Therefore, the ASF cannot provide support for those archives - their support
comes from the organisations that run them.
--
Martin Cooper
As a user, I still prefer marc over mail-archives a real lot
> and am happy about any Apache project that's available on Marc.
>
> But, actually, I replied because your response made me angry. You
> (choose between "You" as in "We", or "You" as in "I") are the one who
> dictate the rules. Others do fulfill the rules. Is it up to you to
> declare that these issues do not exist?
>
>
> Jochen
>
>
>
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>
>
Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> We don't support any of those.
Who's "we"? As a user, I still prefer marc over mail-archives a real lot
and am happy about any Apache project that's available on Marc.
But, actually, I replied because your response made me angry. You
(choose between "You" as in "We", or "You" as in "I") are the one who
dictate the rules. Others do fulfill the rules. Is it up to you to
declare that these issues do not exist?
Jochen
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RE: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Changing a mailing list is stil painful "further downstream".
> Eg with the MARC archive or mail-archive.com or gmane or
> whatever.
We don't support any of those. We provide the raw and mod_mbox archives,
and those are what we support. As you said, "there are other concerns that
overrule this technical argument."
> In the HTTP space, we have lots of tools for URI management
> in the email space (eg mailto:foo@apache.org) we don't have it
> (we just have a simple form of a "Redirect" that doesn't propagate,
We have the ability to map from the old address to the new one, and that can
be kept for as long or as short as necessary.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Sat, Dec 17, 2005 at 11:49:14PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
+0
(...)
> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put mailing lists
> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued for the
> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm also going
> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to ensure
> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that status.
Indeed. Even in the mind of our own developers it seems.
> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain of the TLP
> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for this had
> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the eyebrowse
> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing lists,
> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is fairly
> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
Changing a mailing list is stil painful "further downstream". Eg with the MARC
archive or mail-archive.com or gmane or whatever. In the HTTP space, we have lots
of tools for URI management (eg mod_rewrite, Redirect, RedirectMatch), in the
email space (eg mailto:foo@apache.org) we don't have it (we just have a simple form
of a "Redirect" that doesn't propagate, eg we don't have a "Moved Permanently").
Hence, I remain of the opinion that effort should be taken to make email addresses
"As permanent as possible".
I'll assert there are other concerns that overrule this technical argument (eg
those you gave above and the ones mads listed), but for reference purposes :-)
> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project resources,
> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
- Leo
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
+1
On Dec 17, 2005, at 8:49 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
>
> +1 from me.
>
> --- Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
>
>
> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put
> mailing lists
> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued
> for the
> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm
> also going
> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to
> ensure
> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that
> status.
>
> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain
> of the TLP
> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for
> this had
> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the
> eyebrowse
> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing
> lists,
> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is
> fairly
> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>
> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project
> resources,
> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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----
Ted Leung Blog: <http://www.sauria.com/blog>
PGP Fingerprint: 1003 7870 251F FA71 A59A CEE3 BEBA 2B87 F5FC 4B42
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Eddie O'Neil <ek...@bea.com>.
I can speak from our Beehive experience moving from Incubator to TLP.
When we graduated, Infra successfully migrated all of our:
beehive-<list>@incubator.apache.org
into:
<list>@beehive.apache.org
including all of our subscribers and message history. Thanks, much
Infra! :) The merged archives are available here:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/beehive-dev/
I believe that the beehive-<list>@incubator aliases still forward to the
new lists as I occasionally see mail from Beehive and Geronimo lists
that still go to @incubator addresses. Could be wrong about this,
though -- can someone from Infra confirm this?
If the goal is identifying things as incubating, my vote is a
(non-binding) +1 for projects that live here.
Eddie
Craig L Russell wrote:
> Hi,
>
> -0 (non-binding)
>
> Not to throw a monkey wrench into this, but:
>
> Are we really sure that it's that easy changing an email alias at
> graduation time? Unlike svn repos that only a few folks use, mailing
> lists are widespread. Have you thought about exactly how to transition
> from the project-user@incubator.apache.org
> <ma...@incubator.apache.org> to
> project-user@new-home.apache.org
> <ma...@new-home.apache.org>? Will there be a forwarding of
> the old alias to the new alias at graduation? How long will the
> forwarding last? Will there be a consolidated archive of the old alias
> and the new alias? Will there be any continuation of threads from the
> old alias to the new alias?
>
> Without a clear policy on the transitioning of the mail lists, and tools
> to facilitate the transition I'm not sure it's a good idea.
>
> Craig
>
>> On 18.12.2005, at 05:49, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>
>>> Please vote on the following:
>>>
>>> New mailing lists should be created under the
>>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
>>> the other project resources, e.g., the web
>>> site and SVN subtree.
>>
>
>> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
>> To: general@incubator.apache.org <ma...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
>>
>>
>> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put mailing
>> lists
>> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued for the
>> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm also
>> going
>> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
>> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to ensure
>> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that status.
>>
>> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain of
>> the TLP
>> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for this had
>> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the eyebrowse
>> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing lists,
>> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is fairly
>> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>>
>> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project resources,
>> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>>
>> --- Noel
>
> Craig Russell
>
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
>
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi,
-0 (non-binding)
Not to throw a monkey wrench into this, but:
Are we really sure that it's that easy changing an email alias at
graduation time? Unlike svn repos that only a few folks use, mailing
lists are widespread. Have you thought about exactly how to
transition from the project-user@incubator.apache.org to project-
user@new-home.apache.org? Will there be a forwarding of the old alias
to the new alias at graduation? How long will the forwarding last?
Will there be a consolidated archive of the old alias and the new
alias? Will there be any continuation of threads from the old alias
to the new alias?
Without a clear policy on the transitioning of the mail lists, and
tools to facilitate the transition I'm not sure it's a good idea.
Craig
> On 18.12.2005, at 05:49, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> Please vote on the following:
>>
>> New mailing lists should be created under the
>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
>> the other project resources, e.g., the web
>> site and SVN subtree.
>
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
>
>
> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put
> mailing lists
> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued
> for the
> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm
> also going
> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to
> ensure
> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that
> status.
>
> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain
> of the TLP
> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for
> this had
> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the
> eyebrowse
> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing
> lists,
> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is
> fairly
> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>
> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project
> resources,
> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>
> --- Noel
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 18.12.2005, at 05:49, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
+1.
Cheers,
Erik
Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 17, 2005, at 11:49 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
>
> +1 from me.
>
+1
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@apache.org>.
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>> Please vote on the following:
>>>>
>>>> New mailing lists should be created under the
>>>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
>>>> the other project resources, e.g., the web
>>>> site and SVN subtree.
> +1
+1
Carsten
--
Carsten Ziegeler - Open Source Group, S&N AG
http://www.s-und-n.de
http://www.osoco.org/weblogs/rael/
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
I think that this is the longest active running [vote] thread on an
apache list of all time...
It was started on Sun, 18 Dec 2005 04:49:14 GMT
Noel, can you please tally the votes? :)
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> +1
>
> On 2/21/06, Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@golux.com> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>> Please vote on the following:
>>>
>>> New mailing lists should be created under the
>>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
>>> the other project resources, e.g., the web
>>> site and SVN subtree.
>> +1
>> - --
>> #ken P-)}
>>
>> Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
>> Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
>>
>> "Millennium hand and shrimp!"
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32)
>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>>
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>> deELlj217hU=
>> =PD70
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
+1
On 2/21/06, Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@golux.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Please vote on the following:
> >
> > New mailing lists should be created under the
> > @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> > the other project resources, e.g., the web
> > site and SVN subtree.
>
> +1
> - --
> #ken P-)}
>
> Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
> Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
>
> "Millennium hand and shrimp!"
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iQCVAwUBQ/t5O5rNPMCpn3XdAQLf2AQAutLOyRd07SLVhAbzA0D6bfGpkBMHJwLd
> X8KPEEZzwFMJpCGZkSu0sSJoGqu0GoBbe18oaIKMD2nsO3jSCl/7Jw/dThOXcrWY
> 7BQt/adiNUVP9LkcS5zKYrBQ0cUp1ejIt5Bnynkjk5t1gmbv/Gl0Hunph0HXuHph
> deELlj217hU=
> =PD70
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
+1
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iQCVAwUBQ/t5O5rNPMCpn3XdAQLf2AQAutLOyRd07SLVhAbzA0D6bfGpkBMHJwLd
X8KPEEZzwFMJpCGZkSu0sSJoGqu0GoBbe18oaIKMD2nsO3jSCl/7Jw/dThOXcrWY
7BQt/adiNUVP9LkcS5zKYrBQ0cUp1ejIt5Bnynkjk5t1gmbv/Gl0Hunph0HXuHph
deELlj217hU=
=PD70
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Craig L Russell wrote:
> Excuse me, but don't we have a -1 on this vote thread already? Is the
> idea to get Dain to change his vote by piling on more +1? Or have I
> completely missed the Tao of the voting process in Apache?
I think perhaps you have, and are mixing two concepts...
Any PMC member (read; contributor to project foo) can veto a commit of code
(or docs, or whatever) with a technical justification.
Nobody can veto releases, or procedural decisions or the like. Those are
simple majority votes.
Bill
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Dec 21, 2005, at 4:21 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
> I'm still looking for an ISO 2000-able mechanism (repeatable,
> documented, understandable) to migrate the email lists in the
> incubator domain to the eventual TLP domain without losing threads,
> context, etc. I see that Cocoon apparently has merged their before-
> and after- graduation lists, but don't have any idea how well
> documented and repeatable that process was. For all I know, it was
> done by superhuman effort by one of the superhumans in infra.
AFAIK, I don't have superhuman abilities -- just a lot of scripting-foo.
It takes 5 minutes to move a list now, after I spent a couple weeks
working on the scripts to do it. Nevertheless, I don't like moving
lists unless there is a good reason. It is a potentially error-prone
process if something unforeseen blocks the move.
FYI, trailers are also hard to maintain because they go away
every time the list is reconfigured. They also waste bits.
....Roy
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Dec 21, 2005, at 4:55 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On Dec 21, 2005, at 7:21 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>
>> Excuse me, but don't we have a -1 on this vote thread already? Is
>> the idea to get Dain to change his vote by piling on more +1? Or
>> have I completely missed the Tao of the voting process in Apache?
>>
>> I thought that after a -1 the discussion started again on the
>> disagreements.
>
> No - it's not a veto.
Ok. My bad.
>
>>
>> I'm still looking for an ISO 2000-able mechanism (repeatable,
>> documented, understandable) to migrate the email lists in the
>> incubator domain to the eventual TLP domain without losing
>> threads, context, etc. I see that Cocoon apparently has merged
>> their before- and after- graduation lists, but don't have any idea
>> how well documented and repeatable that process was. For all I
>> know, it was done by superhuman effort by one of the superhumans
>> in infra.
>
> What do you need exactly? can you post it to infra?
I got a reply from Roy who is one of the "superhumans". He says he
knows how to do it with some scripts.
Roy: "I don't like moving lists unless there is a good reason. It is
a potentially error-prone process if something unforeseen blocks the
move."
What I'm looking for is a repeatable, documented process of migrating
email lists from the project-dev AT incubator.apache.org to project-
dev AT top-level-project.apache.org. What Roy has might be suitable
as a tool for part of the process. There are still questions about
how long the old alias will continue to work and whether threads are
maintained across the alias change.
But I'm still missing the rationale for making this big change to
users with the small justification that it makes the incubator more
visible by having it be in the email alias instead of all over the
web site.
Craig
>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Dec 21, 2005, at 4:03 PM, Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> Carsten
>>> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>> Please vote on the following:
>>>>
>>>> New mailing lists should be created under the
>>>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
>>>> the other project resources, e.g., the web
>>>> site and SVN subtree.
>>>>
>>>> +1 from me.
>>>>
>>>> --- Noel
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
>>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>>> Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put
>>>> mailing lists
>>>> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who
>>>> argued for the
>>>> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues,
>>>> I'm also going
>>>> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
>>>> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and
>>>> to ensure
>>>> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that
>>>> status.
>>>>
>>>> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the
>>>> domain of the TLP
>>>> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON
>>>> for this had
>>>> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the
>>>> eyebrowse
>>>> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move
>>>> mailing lists,
>>>> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it
>>>> is fairly
>>>> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>>>>
>>>> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
>>>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project
>>>> resources,
>>>> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>>>>
>>>> --- Noel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Carsten Ziegeler - Open Source Group, S&N AG
>>> http://www.s-und-n.de
>>> http://www.osoco.org/weblogs/rael/
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> Craig Russell
>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/
>> jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
> geirm@apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 21, 2005, at 7:21 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
> Excuse me, but don't we have a -1 on this vote thread already? Is
> the idea to get Dain to change his vote by piling on more +1? Or
> have I completely missed the Tao of the voting process in Apache?
>
> I thought that after a -1 the discussion started again on the
> disagreements.
No - it's not a veto.
>
> I'm still looking for an ISO 2000-able mechanism (repeatable,
> documented, understandable) to migrate the email lists in the
> incubator domain to the eventual TLP domain without losing threads,
> context, etc. I see that Cocoon apparently has merged their before-
> and after- graduation lists, but don't have any idea how well
> documented and repeatable that process was. For all I know, it was
> done by superhuman effort by one of the superhumans in infra.
What do you need exactly? can you post it to infra?
>
> Craig
>
> On Dec 21, 2005, at 4:03 PM, Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Carsten
>> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>> Please vote on the following:
>>>
>>> New mailing lists should be created under the
>>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
>>> the other project resources, e.g., the web
>>> site and SVN subtree.
>>>
>>> +1 from me.
>>>
>>> --- Noel
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
>>>
>>>
>>> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put
>>> mailing lists
>>> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued
>>> for the
>>> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm
>>> also going
>>> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
>>> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to
>>> ensure
>>> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that
>>> status.
>>>
>>> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain
>>> of the TLP
>>> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for
>>> this had
>>> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the
>>> eyebrowse
>>> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move
>>> mailing lists,
>>> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it
>>> is fairly
>>> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>>>
>>> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
>>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project
>>> resources,
>>> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>>>
>>> --- Noel
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carsten Ziegeler - Open Source Group, S&N AG
>> http://www.s-und-n.de
>> http://www.osoco.org/weblogs/rael/
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> Craig Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
On Dec 21, 2005, at 4:21 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
> Excuse me, but don't we have a -1 on this vote thread already? Is
> the idea to get Dain to change his vote by piling on more +1? Or
> have I completely missed the Tao of the voting process in Apache?
>
> I thought that after a -1 the discussion started again on the
> disagreements.
FWIU, vetos only apply to technical issues when a technical reason is
given. Normally, Apache looks for "consensus" which at Apache means
all but a few dissenters.
So my -1 represents my strong dislike for this proposal, but it is
nothing more than my opinion.
-dain
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Excuse me, but don't we have a -1 on this vote thread already? Is the
idea to get Dain to change his vote by piling on more +1? Or have I
completely missed the Tao of the voting process in Apache?
I thought that after a -1 the discussion started again on the
disagreements.
I'm still looking for an ISO 2000-able mechanism (repeatable,
documented, understandable) to migrate the email lists in the
incubator domain to the eventual TLP domain without losing threads,
context, etc. I see that Cocoon apparently has merged their before-
and after- graduation lists, but don't have any idea how well
documented and repeatable that process was. For all I know, it was
done by superhuman effort by one of the superhumans in infra.
Craig
On Dec 21, 2005, at 4:03 PM, Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
> +1
>
> Carsten
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> Please vote on the following:
>>
>> New mailing lists should be created under the
>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
>> the other project resources, e.g., the web
>> site and SVN subtree.
>>
>> +1 from me.
>>
>> --- Noel
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
>>
>>
>> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put
>> mailing lists
>> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued
>> for the
>> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm
>> also going
>> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
>> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to
>> ensure
>> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that
>> status.
>>
>> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain
>> of the TLP
>> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for
>> this had
>> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the
>> eyebrowse
>> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing
>> lists,
>> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is
>> fairly
>> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>>
>> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
>> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project
>> resources,
>> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>>
>> --- Noel
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Carsten Ziegeler - Open Source Group, S&N AG
> http://www.s-und-n.de
> http://www.osoco.org/weblogs/rael/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@apache.org>.
+1
Carsten
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
>
> +1 from me.
>
> --- Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
>
>
> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put mailing lists
> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued for the
> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm also going
> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to ensure
> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that status.
>
> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain of the TLP
> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for this had
> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the eyebrowse
> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing lists,
> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is fairly
> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>
> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project resources,
> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Carsten Ziegeler - Open Source Group, S&N AG
http://www.s-und-n.de
http://www.osoco.org/weblogs/rael/
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 20, 2005, at 1:09 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>
>> Offering an alternate proposal as part of a vote thread after the
>> discussion
>> has taken place already where one did not participate *is*
>> "anything else" by
>> the way. What I didn't like is the very fact that someone out-of-
>> the-blue proposes
>> an alternate, since that derails the vote thread, takes time and
>> energy of
>> everyone, and is just counter-productive in the end. You may
>> notice that both Cliff
>> and I have some reservations but we're not getting in the way of
>> making progress.
>
> My proposal is not "out-of-the-blue". I brought this up a few days
> ago in the "@domain for Incubator mailing lists" thread to which
> there was one completely useless response from Geir "To what end?"
Which you ignored for some reason. Why was it 'useless'? I was
trying to figure out why you wanted all podling email domains to
switch to @incubator, not just the new/recent ones.
I'm still confused on what you actually want, because you voted
against your own suggestion.
geir
--
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geirm@apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
On Dec 20, 2005, at 2:13 AM, Leo Simons wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 04:19:21PM -0800, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>> Give me a break.
>
> No. The incubator PMC has "given breaks" before and it let to
> undesired
> side effects so now we're not going to do that anymore.
>
>> I'm not trying to hide anything.
>
> In general, when discussing policy or a general case, it is a good
> idea to
> not use a personal form of communication, because policy has
> nothing to do
> with specific individuals.
>
> Nevertheless, noted.
>
>> You have a goal
>> to make sure that no one is confused about the status of an
>> incubating project, and you have a proposal that you believe works
>> for mailing lists. I am suggesting alternate proposal.
>
> "You", "I", "me". *We* have a goal. *You* needs to be a part of
> *we*, in
> general there is no "I" involved. This is "us vs a problem", not
> "you vs
> me". Don't confuse the two.
>
>> If you don't like my proposal, simply state that
>
> I read mads his email as exactly that. I even saw two arguments (one
> its clean and simple, two its less cumbersome if we decide halfway
> through incubation that a project is a better fit elsewhere).
>
>> , but please don't
>> imply that offering an alternate proposal is anything else.
>
> C'mon, dude! Do you want to bicker about what some words from
> someone in some
> email thread might have "implied" or do you want to help tackle the
> issue at
> hand?
+100000 I couldn't agree with you more. It is really annoying when
someone chooses to "bicker about what some words from someone in some
email thread might have "implied"".
> Offering an alternate proposal as part of a vote thread after the
> discussion
> has taken place already where one did not participate *is*
> "anything else" by
> the way. What I didn't like is the very fact that someone out-of-
> the-blue proposes
> an alternate, since that derails the vote thread, takes time and
> energy of
> everyone, and is just counter-productive in the end. You may notice
> that both Cliff
> and I have some reservations but we're not getting in the way of
> making progress.
My proposal is not "out-of-the-blue". I brought this up a few days
ago in the "@domain for Incubator mailing lists" thread to which
there was one completely useless response from Geir "To what end?"
and one from Noel where he agreed that the use of a notification
footer was a good idea, but "having all resources under the incubator
domain was the original requirement and desire of the Incubator PMC,
relaxed only because of technical issues that no longer apply". That
was it and then it became a vote thread, so I added my comments to
the vote thread. It appears that others would like to discuss this
more.
>> If you have specific, issues with my proposal, that will be
>> welcome also.
>
> Mads listed two. Of those I find the "simpler" qualifier extremely
> important,
> since in general this stuff is not, and that's what leads to
> confusion,
> frustration, etc.
It always helps a discussion to simply use word like "simpler" and
phrases like "leads to confusion" without a reason why that is true ;)
> Anyway, I suggest you accept there is no "break" to be had, you
> weren't around
> when the relevant discussions took place, and hence shouldn't re-
> start one now.
I wasn't aware that new community members weren't welcome in
discussions that took place once a long time ago. In that case, can
you please place a warning on such email threads, since it isn't
possible since all new users will by definition not be aware of such
discussions, and we will kindly keep out of these discussions ;)
-dain
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 04:19:21PM -0800, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> Give me a break.
No. The incubator PMC has "given breaks" before and it let to undesired
side effects so now we're not going to do that anymore.
> I'm not trying to hide anything.
In general, when discussing policy or a general case, it is a good idea to
not use a personal form of communication, because policy has nothing to do
with specific individuals.
Nevertheless, noted.
> You have a goal
> to make sure that no one is confused about the status of an
> incubating project, and you have a proposal that you believe works
> for mailing lists. I am suggesting alternate proposal.
"You", "I", "me". *We* have a goal. *You* needs to be a part of *we*, in
general there is no "I" involved. This is "us vs a problem", not "you vs
me". Don't confuse the two.
> If you don't like my proposal, simply state that
I read mads his email as exactly that. I even saw two arguments (one
its clean and simple, two its less cumbersome if we decide halfway
through incubation that a project is a better fit elsewhere).
> , but please don't
> imply that offering an alternate proposal is anything else.
C'mon, dude! Do you want to bicker about what some words from someone in some
email thread might have "implied" or do you want to help tackle the issue at
hand?
Offering an alternate proposal as part of a vote thread after the discussion
has taken place already where one did not participate *is* "anything else" by
the way. What I didn't like is the very fact that someone out-of-the-blue proposes
an alternate, since that derails the vote thread, takes time and energy of
everyone, and is just counter-productive in the end. You may notice that both Cliff
and I have some reservations but we're not getting in the way of making progress.
> If you have specific, issues with my proposal, that will be welcome also.
Mads listed two. Of those I find the "simpler" qualifier extremely important,
since in general this stuff is not, and that's what leads to confusion,
frustration, etc.
(...)
Anyway, I suggest you accept there is no "break" to be had, you weren't around
when the relevant discussions took place, and hence shouldn't re-start one now.
LSD
> -dain
>
> On Dec 19, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Mads Toftum wrote:
>
> >On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 10:11:05AM -0800, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> >>BTW would activemq-dev@incubator.geronimo.apache.org or activemq-dev-
> >>incubation@geronimo.apache.org be ok, since they contain the word
> >>incubate?
> >>
> >Nope - it still seems like you're trying to hide that a project is
> >under
> >incubation. Keeping projects under incubation in the incubator.a.o
> >is a
> >simple and clean way to seperate the projects and makes it a lot
> >easier
> >to clean up if they don't graduate. Sticking a project under a
> >specific
> >pmc up front also adds additional bother if it later shows to either
> >merit going directly to tlp or to be a better fit with another pmc.
> >
> >vh
> >
> >Mads Toftum
> >--
> >`Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
Give me a break. I'm not trying to hide anything. You have a goal
to make sure that no one is confused about the status of an
incubating project, and you have a proposal that you believe works
for mailing lists. I am suggesting alternate proposal.
If you don't like my proposal, simply state that, but please don't
imply that offering an alternate proposal is anything else. If you
have specific, issues with my proposal, that will be welcome also.
-dain
On Dec 19, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Mads Toftum wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 10:11:05AM -0800, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
>> BTW would activemq-dev@incubator.geronimo.apache.org or activemq-dev-
>> incubation@geronimo.apache.org be ok, since they contain the word
>> incubate?
>>
> Nope - it still seems like you're trying to hide that a project is
> under
> incubation. Keeping projects under incubation in the incubator.a.o
> is a
> simple and clean way to seperate the projects and makes it a lot
> easier
> to clean up if they don't graduate. Sticking a project under a
> specific
> pmc up front also adds additional bother if it later shows to either
> merit going directly to tlp or to be a better fit with another pmc.
>
> vh
>
> Mads Toftum
> --
> `Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Mads Toftum <ma...@toftum.dk>.
On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 10:11:05AM -0800, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> BTW would activemq-dev@incubator.geronimo.apache.org or activemq-dev-
> incubation@geronimo.apache.org be ok, since they contain the word
> incubate?
>
Nope - it still seems like you're trying to hide that a project is under
incubation. Keeping projects under incubation in the incubator.a.o is a
simple and clean way to seperate the projects and makes it a lot easier
to clean up if they don't graduate. Sticking a project under a specific
pmc up front also adds additional bother if it later shows to either
merit going directly to tlp or to be a better fit with another pmc.
vh
Mads Toftum
--
`Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
On Dec 17, 2005, at 8:49 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
>
-1 (non-binding)
I don't have the impression, that the older model was causing any
trouble and it was simpler and saved work.
Jochen
--
Often it does seem a pity that Noah and his party did not miss the
boat. (Mark Twain)
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
-1 I prefer to have a new sub project associated with the TLP
community and use a footer to note incubation status.
BTW would activemq-dev@incubator.geronimo.apache.org or activemq-dev-
incubation@geronimo.apache.org be ok, since they contain the word
incubate?
-dain
On Dec 17, 2005, at 8:49 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
>
> +1 from me.
>
> --- Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
>
>
> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put
> mailing lists
> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued
> for the
> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm
> also going
> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to
> ensure
> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that
> status.
>
> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain
> of the TLP
> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for
> this had
> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the
> eyebrowse
> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing
> lists,
> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is
> fairly
> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>
> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project
> resources,
> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
+1
Helps keeps things organized... anything that helps there is good
these days...
On Dec 17, 2005, at 11:49 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
>
> +1 from me.
>
> --- Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
>
>
> There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put
> mailing lists
> for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued
> for the
> current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm
> also going
> to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
> important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to
> ensure
> that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that
> status.
>
> The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain
> of the TLP
> into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for
> this had
> to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the
> eyebrowse
> archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing
> lists,
> and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is
> fairly
> straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
>
> THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project
> resources,
> e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Sat, 2005-12-17 at 23:49 -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Please vote on the following:
>
> New mailing lists should be created under the
> @incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
> the other project resources, e.g., the web
> site and SVN subtree.
>
> +1 from me.
+1.
Sanjiva.
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[VOTE] @domain for Incubator mailing lists
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Please vote on the following:
New mailing lists should be created under the
@incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
the other project resources, e.g., the web
site and SVN subtree.
+1 from me.
--- Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 16:02
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: @domain for Incubator mailing lists
There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put mailing lists
for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued for the
current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm also going
to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
important to highlight when a project is in the Incubator, and to ensure
that there is no confusion in the mind of the public about that status.
The current approach is to put the mailing lists under the domain of the TLP
into which it was expected that they would go, and THE REASON for this had
to do with the difficulty of moving the mailing lists and the eyebrowse
archives. HOWEVER, Roy has since written a script to move mailing lists,
and we no longer use eyebrowse. And unlike the prior setup, it is fairly
straightforward to redirect an old archive location to a new one.
THEREFORE, new mailing lists should be created under the
@incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of the other project resources,
e.g., the web site and SVN subtree.
--- Noel
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