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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Michael Melhem <mi...@apache.org> on 2003/02/03 13:33:30 UTC
sample web-app too complex?
Hi Cocooners,
I know that we probably have had this discussion before, but is there a
reason why we dont have simple "Hello-World" sample web-app along side
the current sample web-app? (or does there already exist an independent
"hello-world" web-app that Im not aware of?)
I have been trying to encourage some people I know to adopt Cocoon
in their organisations, but it seems to me that many new people are
daunted by the complexity of the sample web-app. It might not seem so
difficult for most of us (who use cocoon everyday) but this is not the
case for most new users.
Typically a new Cocoon user is initially looking for a non-real world example to
tinker with so that they can learn the fundimental concepts behind Cocoon.
These people should not be concered with mounting sub-sitemaps, fancy
regexp matching and internal cocoon redirects, or sifting through hundreds of
component declerations in the components section. This tends to put new
users off.
Do others have an opinion on this ?
Regards,
Michael
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Guido Casper <gc...@s-und-n.de>.
> -> Right now I use an ant task to build a .jar which
> then gets (manually) put in cocoon/WEB-INF/lib
>
> Is there a way to make this local or reference
> it more self contained from sitemap.xmap ?
>
> Ideally with a map:action src=" something
> relative.
>
> Is that possible ?
>
> -> Right now I add the xindice.jar to the lib
> of cocoon/WEB-INF.
>
> Is there a way instead to
> manage the classpath directly from the
> sitemap.xmap in the local directory ?
>
>Or in short; how do I make the above a more 'modular' and stand alone
>example. Pointers to the right place in the documentation appreciated.
This is currently not possible (as far as java code is concerned).
You have to wait for Cocoon 2.2 or until the notorious block concept is
implemented.
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=Blocks
HTH
Guido
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Guido Casper <gc...@s-und-n.de>.
> -> in sitemap.xmap I'd like to reference
> the cocoon/samples/stylesheets/... relative
> or absolute to server root rather than have the local
> copy in the styles directory.
>
> Is that possible ?
<map:transform src="context://samples/stylesheets/xy.xsl"/>
HTH
Guido
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
While on the subject, I just got:
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=XMLFormXindice
to work - and was wondering how one should package this as cleanly,
modular and small as possible ?
I.e:
http://cvs.apache.org/~dirkx/CoFi/
is what I have now. But it still has a few hard coded paths and
references. Ultimately I'd like to get it as a simple zip/jar which
can be added to the XMLFormXindice page which is trivial to deploy.
Things I am left to wonder - and would appreciate it if anyone could point
me to the right documentation:
-> in sitemap.xmap I'd like to reference
the cocoon/samples/stylesheets/... relative
or absolute to server root rather than have the local
copy in the styles directory.
Is that possible ?
-> Right now I use an ant task to build a .jar which
then gets (manually) put in cocoon/WEB-INF/lib
Is there a way to make this local or reference
it more self contained from sitemap.xmap ?
Ideally with a map:action src=" something
relative.
Is that possible ?
-> Right now I add the xindice.jar to the lib
of cocoon/WEB-INF.
Is there a way instead to
manage the classpath directly from the
sitemap.xmap in the local directory ?
Or in short; how do I make the above a more 'modular' and stand alone
example. Pointers to the right place in the documentation appreciated.
Thanks,
Dw
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Michael Melhem <mi...@fztig938.bank.dresdner.net>.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 05:07:12PM +0100, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Le Mercredi, 12 f?v 2003, ? 16:56 Europe/Zurich, Michael Melhem a ?crit
> :
>
> >...
> > We would also
> >have only one or two pipelines using say a basic file generator
> >to transform an xml file to HTML etc. I think at a minimum the webapp
> >would aslo need to show basic use of actions views..
> >...
> >Does anyone else see value in this?
>
> Definitely.
>
> Or maybe even *two* minimal samples, one for read-only
> HTML/PDF/RTF/etc. publishing stuff and another for a
> database/transactions/CRUD webapp.
Yep, that makes sense...
I think the first step would be to get an early version of
of "hello-world.war" up and running... and then we could
take it from there (as far as special requests go)
Michael
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Michael Melhem <mi...@fztig938.bank.dresdner.net>.
On Sun, Feb 16, 2003 at 09:11:11PM +0100, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Michael Melhem wrote:
>
> >With the current complexity of the webapp Im afraid that perhaps a lot
> >of new users might not be able to see the "forrest for the trees".
> >
> >Does anyone else see value in this?
>
> I do.
>
> It's planned for the improved build system I'm working on.
>
> Expect it soon.
Oh good, I can take this off my to-do list. :)
Michael
>
> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
> Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate [William of Ockham]
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Michael Melhem wrote:
> With the current complexity of the webapp Im afraid that perhaps a lot
> of new users might not be able to see the "forrest for the trees".
>
> Does anyone else see value in this?
I do.
It's planned for the improved build system I'm working on.
Expect it soon.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate [William of Ockham]
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Ryan Hoegg <rh...@isisnetworks.net>.
Michael Melhem wrote:
>Hi Christian, I was actually thinking that we could provide a new
>build target that would build a hello-world.war and would contain
>only one or two simple samples.
>
>The object of this hello-world.war would be demonstrate the basic
>features/ideas behind Cocoon without getting bogged down on details.
>Just something simple with extra documentation so that newbies can get
>ther handes dirty real quick.
>
>So instead of having X number of generators|transformers|serializers
>being declared in the components section, we would have one or two
>of each which would make things much easier to follow. We would also
>have only one or two pipelines using say a basic file generator
>to transform an xml file to HTML etc. I think at a minimum the webapp
>would aslo need to show basic use of actions views..
>
>With the current complexity of the webapp Im afraid that perhaps a lot
>of new users might not be able to see the "forrest for the trees".
>
>Does anyone else see value in this?
>
Good idea Michael,
I have been trying to get my head around Cocoon for a couple months now,
without biting the bullet and devoting a solid week to it.
This approach hasn't been successful yet. I think your idea may help a lot.
I would like to put in a request that you include a simple example using
a custom generator instead of a flat XML file. The reason is that I am
coming from a servlet / JSP / struts background instead of a HTML / PHP
/ whatever background. I want to use Cocoon as a platform for web
applications more than multi-platform publishing.
Thanks,
Ryan Hoegg
ISIS Networks
http://www.isisnetworks.net
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Michael Melhem <mi...@fztig938.bank.dresdner.net>.
On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 05:30:27PM +0100, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
> I heavily agree.
>
> Just another idea going into the same direction:
>
> Would it make sense to organise something like a
> "cocoon core application" plus some zip-files, each of them
> containing one complete setup for one example. So the user
> could do :
>
> 1.) install cocoon
> 2.) drop his favorite example zip into a dedicated
> location inside cocoon (e.g. $cocoonroot/testscenarios)
> 3.) test it
> 4.) delete it if not used anymore
>
> what would be needed to get this done?
>
> 1.) basically add a fresh mountpoint to rootsitemap and enshure, that
> the subdirectory $cocoonroot/testscenarios) exists. Alternatively
> cleanup $cocoonroot/mount and use this for the testscenarios. It's
> already there ....
> 2.) Each test scenario gets it's own subdir in the test scenario
> mountpoint. By this the user could unzip the testapp into the
> scenario folder, test it and delete the folder, if not used
> anymore. Also this can be aranged without big problems.
>
> If the testscenarios would be built in their own folder hierarchies,
> everything would be a matter of zipping the folder, putting the zipfile
> to a download location and youre done. The user grabs the zip, unzips it
> and is done...
>
> would do you think ?
Hi Hussayn
Im not sure what you mean here, but this almost sounds a little
like cocoon blocks ??
Regards,
Michael
>
> regards, hussayn
>
>
>
> Michael Melhem wrote:
> >On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 02:06:18PM +0100, Christian Haul wrote:
> >
> >>On 03.Feb.2003 -- 01:33 PM, Michael Melhem wrote:
> >>
> >>>Hi Cocooners,
> >>>
> >>>I know that we probably have had this discussion before, but is there a
> >>>reason why we dont have simple "Hello-World" sample web-app along side
> >>>the current sample web-app? (or does there already exist an independent
> >>>"hello-world" web-app that Im not aware of?)
> >>>
> >>>I have been trying to encourage some people I know to adopt Cocoon
> >>>in their organisations, but it seems to me that many new people are
> >>>daunted by the complexity of the sample web-app. It might not seem so
> >>>difficult for most of us (who use cocoon everyday) but this is not the
> >>>case for most new users.
> >>
> >>Michael, I'm not quite sure if I understand this "simple webapp"
> >>proposal correctly. We do have a "clean-webapp" target which AFAIR
> >>builds a webapp without samples or documentation.
> >
> >
> >Hi Christian, I was actually thinking that we could provide a new
> >build target that would build a hello-world.war and would contain
> >only one or two simple samples.
> >
> >The object of this hello-world.war would be demonstrate the basic
> >features/ideas behind Cocoon without getting bogged down on details.
> >Just something simple with extra documentation so that newbies can get
> >ther handes dirty real quick.
> >
> >So instead of having X number of generators|transformers|serializers
> >being declared in the components section, we would have one or two
> >of each which would make things much easier to follow. We would also
> >have only one or two pipelines using say a basic file generator
> >to transform an xml file to HTML etc. I think at a minimum the webapp
> >would aslo need to show basic use of actions views..
> >
> >With the current complexity of the webapp Im afraid that perhaps a lot
> >of new users might not be able to see the "forrest for the trees".
> >
> >Does anyone else see value in this?
> >
> >
> >>The other issue is the current samples we ship. A lot lives in a
> >>single sitemap file which is not really encouraging to try to
> >>understand what happens in there. Perhaps, we could all adopt some
> >>samples and split this monster into several sub sitemaps that contain
> >>just the parts for this particular sample. Have a look at the current
> >>database block samples to see what I mean.
> >
> >
> >Yes I agree with you here, the current webapp could itself be
> >simplified.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Michael
> >
> >
> >> Chris.
> >>--
> >>C h r i s t i a n H a u l
> >>haul@informatik.tu-darmstadt.de
> >> fingerprint: 99B0 1D9D 7919 644A 4837 7D73 FEF9 6856 335A 9E08
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> >For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
> >
>
> --
> Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
> SAXESS Software Design GmbH
> Neuenh?fer Allee 125
> 50935 K?ln
> Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
> Fax: +49-221-56011-20
> E-Mail: dabbous@saxess.com
>
>
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous <da...@saxess.com>.
I heavily agree.
Just another idea going into the same direction:
Would it make sense to organise something like a
"cocoon core application" plus some zip-files, each of them
containing one complete setup for one example. So the user
could do :
1.) install cocoon
2.) drop his favorite example zip into a dedicated
location inside cocoon (e.g. $cocoonroot/testscenarios)
3.) test it
4.) delete it if not used anymore
what would be needed to get this done?
1.) basically add a fresh mountpoint to rootsitemap and enshure, that
the subdirectory $cocoonroot/testscenarios) exists. Alternatively
cleanup $cocoonroot/mount and use this for the testscenarios. It's
already there ....
2.) Each test scenario gets it's own subdir in the test scenario
mountpoint. By this the user could unzip the testapp into the
scenario folder, test it and delete the folder, if not used
anymore. Also this can be aranged without big problems.
If the testscenarios would be built in their own folder hierarchies,
everything would be a matter of zipping the folder, putting the zipfile
to a download location and youre done. The user grabs the zip, unzips it
and is done...
would do you think ?
regards, hussayn
Michael Melhem wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 02:06:18PM +0100, Christian Haul wrote:
>
>>On 03.Feb.2003 -- 01:33 PM, Michael Melhem wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Cocooners,
>>>
>>>I know that we probably have had this discussion before, but is there a
>>>reason why we dont have simple "Hello-World" sample web-app along side
>>>the current sample web-app? (or does there already exist an independent
>>>"hello-world" web-app that Im not aware of?)
>>>
>>>I have been trying to encourage some people I know to adopt Cocoon
>>>in their organisations, but it seems to me that many new people are
>>>daunted by the complexity of the sample web-app. It might not seem so
>>>difficult for most of us (who use cocoon everyday) but this is not the
>>>case for most new users.
>>
>>Michael, I'm not quite sure if I understand this "simple webapp"
>>proposal correctly. We do have a "clean-webapp" target which AFAIR
>>builds a webapp without samples or documentation.
>
>
> Hi Christian, I was actually thinking that we could provide a new
> build target that would build a hello-world.war and would contain
> only one or two simple samples.
>
> The object of this hello-world.war would be demonstrate the basic
> features/ideas behind Cocoon without getting bogged down on details.
> Just something simple with extra documentation so that newbies can get
> ther handes dirty real quick.
>
> So instead of having X number of generators|transformers|serializers
> being declared in the components section, we would have one or two
> of each which would make things much easier to follow. We would also
> have only one or two pipelines using say a basic file generator
> to transform an xml file to HTML etc. I think at a minimum the webapp
> would aslo need to show basic use of actions views..
>
> With the current complexity of the webapp Im afraid that perhaps a lot
> of new users might not be able to see the "forrest for the trees".
>
> Does anyone else see value in this?
>
>
>>The other issue is the current samples we ship. A lot lives in a
>>single sitemap file which is not really encouraging to try to
>>understand what happens in there. Perhaps, we could all adopt some
>>samples and split this monster into several sub sitemaps that contain
>>just the parts for this particular sample. Have a look at the current
>>database block samples to see what I mean.
>
>
> Yes I agree with you here, the current webapp could itself be
> simplified.
>
> Regards,
> Michael
>
>
>> Chris.
>>--
>>C h r i s t i a n H a u l
>>haul@informatik.tu-darmstadt.de
>> fingerprint: 99B0 1D9D 7919 644A 4837 7D73 FEF9 6856 335A 9E08
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
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>
--
Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
SAXESS Software Design GmbH
Neuenhöfer Allee 125
50935 Köln
Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
Fax: +49-221-56011-20
E-Mail: dabbous@saxess.com
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Le Mercredi, 12 fév 2003, à 16:56 Europe/Zurich, Michael Melhem a écrit
:
> ...
> We would also
> have only one or two pipelines using say a basic file generator
> to transform an xml file to HTML etc. I think at a minimum the webapp
> would aslo need to show basic use of actions views..
> ...
> Does anyone else see value in this?
Definitely.
Or maybe even *two* minimal samples, one for read-only
HTML/PDF/RTF/etc. publishing stuff and another for a
database/transactions/CRUD webapp.
-Bertrand
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Michael Melhem <mi...@fztig938.bank.dresdner.net>.
On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 02:06:18PM +0100, Christian Haul wrote:
> On 03.Feb.2003 -- 01:33 PM, Michael Melhem wrote:
> > Hi Cocooners,
> >
> > I know that we probably have had this discussion before, but is there a
> > reason why we dont have simple "Hello-World" sample web-app along side
> > the current sample web-app? (or does there already exist an independent
> > "hello-world" web-app that Im not aware of?)
> >
> > I have been trying to encourage some people I know to adopt Cocoon
> > in their organisations, but it seems to me that many new people are
> > daunted by the complexity of the sample web-app. It might not seem so
> > difficult for most of us (who use cocoon everyday) but this is not the
> > case for most new users.
>
> Michael, I'm not quite sure if I understand this "simple webapp"
> proposal correctly. We do have a "clean-webapp" target which AFAIR
> builds a webapp without samples or documentation.
Hi Christian, I was actually thinking that we could provide a new
build target that would build a hello-world.war and would contain
only one or two simple samples.
The object of this hello-world.war would be demonstrate the basic
features/ideas behind Cocoon without getting bogged down on details.
Just something simple with extra documentation so that newbies can get
ther handes dirty real quick.
So instead of having X number of generators|transformers|serializers
being declared in the components section, we would have one or two
of each which would make things much easier to follow. We would also
have only one or two pipelines using say a basic file generator
to transform an xml file to HTML etc. I think at a minimum the webapp
would aslo need to show basic use of actions views..
With the current complexity of the webapp Im afraid that perhaps a lot
of new users might not be able to see the "forrest for the trees".
Does anyone else see value in this?
>
> The other issue is the current samples we ship. A lot lives in a
> single sitemap file which is not really encouraging to try to
> understand what happens in there. Perhaps, we could all adopt some
> samples and split this monster into several sub sitemaps that contain
> just the parts for this particular sample. Have a look at the current
> database block samples to see what I mean.
Yes I agree with you here, the current webapp could itself be
simplified.
Regards,
Michael
>
> Chris.
> --
> C h r i s t i a n H a u l
> haul@informatik.tu-darmstadt.de
> fingerprint: 99B0 1D9D 7919 644A 4837 7D73 FEF9 6856 335A 9E08
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Michael Melhem <mi...@fztig938.bank.dresdner.net>.
On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 02:06:18PM +0100, Christian Haul wrote:
> On 03.Feb.2003 -- 01:33 PM, Michael Melhem wrote:
> > Hi Cocooners,
> >
> > I know that we probably have had this discussion before, but is there a
> > reason why we dont have simple "Hello-World" sample web-app along side
> > the current sample web-app? (or does there already exist an independent
> > "hello-world" web-app that Im not aware of?)
> >
> > I have been trying to encourage some people I know to adopt Cocoon
> > in their organisations, but it seems to me that many new people are
> > daunted by the complexity of the sample web-app. It might not seem so
> > difficult for most of us (who use cocoon everyday) but this is not the
> > case for most new users.
>
> Michael, I'm not quite sure if I understand this "simple webapp"
> proposal correctly. We do have a "clean-webapp" target which AFAIR
> builds a webapp without samples or documentation.
Hi Christian, I was actually thinking that we could provide a new
build target that would build a hello-world.war and would contain
only one or two simple samples.
The object of this hello-world.war would be demonstrate the basic
features/ideas behind Cocoon without getting bogged down on details.
Just something simple with extra documentation so that newbies can get
ther handes dirty real quick.
So instead of having X number of generators|transformers|serializers
being declared in the components section, we would have one or two
of each which would make things much easier to follow. We would also
have only one or two pipelines using say a basic file generator
to transform an xml file to HTML etc. I think at a minimum the webapp
would aslo need to show basic use of actions views..
With the current complexity of the webapp Im afraid that perhaps a lot
of new users might not be able to see the "forrest for the trees".
Does anyone else see value in this?
>
> The other issue is the current samples we ship. A lot lives in a
> single sitemap file which is not really encouraging to try to
> understand what happens in there. Perhaps, we could all adopt some
> samples and split this monster into several sub sitemaps that contain
> just the parts for this particular sample. Have a look at the current
> database block samples to see what I mean.
Yes I agree with you here, the current webapp could itself be
simplified.
Regards,
Michael
>
> Chris.
> --
> C h r i s t i a n H a u l
> haul@informatik.tu-darmstadt.de
> fingerprint: 99B0 1D9D 7919 644A 4837 7D73 FEF9 6856 335A 9E08
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Christian Haul <ha...@dvs1.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de>.
On 03.Feb.2003 -- 01:33 PM, Michael Melhem wrote:
> Hi Cocooners,
>
> I know that we probably have had this discussion before, but is there a
> reason why we dont have simple "Hello-World" sample web-app along side
> the current sample web-app? (or does there already exist an independent
> "hello-world" web-app that Im not aware of?)
>
> I have been trying to encourage some people I know to adopt Cocoon
> in their organisations, but it seems to me that many new people are
> daunted by the complexity of the sample web-app. It might not seem so
> difficult for most of us (who use cocoon everyday) but this is not the
> case for most new users.
Michael, I'm not quite sure if I understand this "simple webapp"
proposal correctly. We do have a "clean-webapp" target which AFAIR
builds a webapp without samples or documentation.
The other issue is the current samples we ship. A lot lives in a
single sitemap file which is not really encouraging to try to
understand what happens in there. Perhaps, we could all adopt some
samples and split this monster into several sub sitemaps that contain
just the parts for this particular sample. Have a look at the current
database block samples to see what I mean.
Chris.
--
C h r i s t i a n H a u l
haul@informatik.tu-darmstadt.de
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RE: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Geoff Howard <co...@leverageweb.com>.
I've just gone back to full time work (with a bad commute) so I'm
a little out of the loop on the discussions of the last week, but
wanted to add this:
> In this sense i simply want to point people to the essentials,
> giving them some KISS cookbook guidance, some first
> sense of achievement and then give them the freedom to dive
> as deep into the game as they want. And only then we point
> them to "expanding your knowledge pages", such like
>
> http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CreateMinimalWebapp
>
> which is a significant source of knowledge and getting through
> it will certainly help understanding cocoon in more depths.
>
> I want to keep the beginners away from CreateMinimalWebapp,
> because stripping down cocoon to its essentials is a technical
> process, but users tend to start with "application use cases"
> Please i'm not talking about ALL users, i'm talking about the
> exceptional users, who don't know anything about cocoon ...
As the author of that work in progress, I agree with you - it wasn't
meant for the typical beginner. It was my log of the process it
took me to do a minimal build on 2.0.4 release, and I thought it
more useful to core/docs contributors to get a handle on where
things stood, and maybe make some changes to make getting to that
point easier. (Actually, the other part of the plan was to add the
binary war file so people could skip the instructions)
The problem that I saw needing to be addressed was after one has
learned cocoon and wants to begin developing an app to be deployed,
how do I go about trimming out all the stuff that isn't necessary.
Part of my security thinking involves stripping out services etc. that
aren't necessary. If I install Apache httpd, I know I don't want to
run perl cgi's so I want that out of there so there is no potential
for vulnerability on an area I'm not monitoring closely.
I don't really remember why I sent the link in response to this thread,
except that I have heard newcomers express concern that cocoon.war is
so big. Having a minimal build that is 5meg might help alleviate that
concern - whether they know how to create it or would actually use it
that small wasn't the issue.
So, feel completely free to use or not use any portion of that as you
see fit - I am very impressed with the effort that's been going on
with the Competency Center and have no ego tied up in whether you found
that useful. Hope to get back to a point where I can contribute more soon.
Geoff
>
> regards, Hussayn
>
>
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > On Monday 03 February 2003 23:50, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
> >
> >>I would like to distinguish between
> >>"creating a webapp with minimal cocoon"
> >>and
> >>"creating a webapp with minimal functionality"
> >>http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CreateMinimalWebapp
> >>
> >>would not be what a beginner wants to start with, before they
> >>get something to see. In my eyes this may be "step 2". But to
> >>be honest here, i never thought of stripping down cocoon
> >>to its basics. i just keep it as is and use what i need.
> >>One day i may find out, that a very particular peace of cocoon
> >>would be exactly what i need, but unfortunately i dropped it
> >>by stripping down cocoon earlier. Now i can try to find out,
> >>what i have to put back into my webapp to get the new stuff
> >>up and running hmm... not convinced.
> >
> >
> > I tend to both agree and disagree at the same time... ;o)
> >
> > Thinking back to Apache Webserver... When I first opened the
> httpd.conf (which
> > in those days was spread out over three files to make matters
> worse), I was
> > overwhelmed with the sheer amount of settings, and closed it
> (them) quickly.
> >
> > I realized I needed to dig through that to get my server up and
> running (the
> > defaults were also less perfect than today), and every line was
> scrutinized;
> > "Do I need to change this?", "What does this mean?" and a lot
> "Wow, can I do
> > that?"
> >
> > So, although it scared the "mud-like-substance" out of me, it
> also re-inforced
> > the learning speed.
> >
> > Looking at that (because I was too involved with the inception
> of sitemaps,
> > generators, aggregation and all the rest, so I know what it
> means in Cocoon,
> > and is not a "neutral" first user) I think I can give this feedback;
> >
> > Any configuration file, be it httpd.conf or sitemaps, should be
> organized in a
> > couple of sections, and ordered in some kind of priority order,
> where lesser
> > used features, or very advanced features are placed far from the top.
> > If the first "section" covers the "essentials", and clearly
> indicates that "If
> > you are setting up Cocoon the first time, you probably don't need to go
> > beyond this point..." it would be great.
> >
> >
> > What I am trying to say; Complex new settings environments
> (such as sitemaps)
> > are intimidating at first (especially if your editor is not XML
> aware with
> > syntax highlighting), but it is easier to review and modify
> sample entries,
> > than trying to pick them up from a xdoc and "get it to work".
> > Also, the comments should be more descriptive, especially what
> the Cocoon
> > specific terms means, so if I am reasonably bright, I don't
> need much more
> > documentation.
> >
> > Niclas
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> > For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
> >
>
> --
> Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
> SAXESS Software Design GmbH
> Neuenhöfer Allee 125
> 50935 Köln
> Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
> Fax: +49-221-56011-20
> E-Mail: dabbous@saxess.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>
>
>
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous <da...@saxess.com>.
Hy, Niclas;
as you state in the beginning of your email, this issue
is far away from beeing a trivial thing. I agree with your
statement. Maybe the following anecdote hits the essential
point :
It was one of my professors, who told us, that university
courses are absolutely useless, because either the students
don't understand anything, or they already know everything.
When we asked him: "Why then are we here listening to you?"
he answered, "This is because you are the exceptions from
the rule, who don't know anything, but understand everything".
We considered this as a compliment... ;-)
coming back to cocoon:
With the ongoing effort in
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CocoonCompetenceCenter
some of us try to get people start more quickly giving them
heavy guidance in the sense of "you don't need to understand
this now, just take it and play with it. But you MUST come
back later, if you want to understand in depth. And then you
are on your own ..." and with the cocoon-users list of course ;-)
In this sense i simply want to point people to the essentials,
giving them some KISS cookbook guidance, some first
sense of achievement and then give them the freedom to dive
as deep into the game as they want. And only then we point
them to "expanding your knowledge pages", such like
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CreateMinimalWebapp
which is a significant source of knowledge and getting through
it will certainly help understanding cocoon in more depths.
I want to keep the beginners away from CreateMinimalWebapp,
because stripping down cocoon to its essentials is a technical
process, but users tend to start with "application use cases"
Please i'm not talking about ALL users, i'm talking about the
exceptional users, who don't know anything about cocoon ...
regards, Hussayn
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Monday 03 February 2003 23:50, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
>
>>I would like to distinguish between
>>"creating a webapp with minimal cocoon"
>>and
>>"creating a webapp with minimal functionality"
>>http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CreateMinimalWebapp
>>
>>would not be what a beginner wants to start with, before they
>>get something to see. In my eyes this may be "step 2". But to
>>be honest here, i never thought of stripping down cocoon
>>to its basics. i just keep it as is and use what i need.
>>One day i may find out, that a very particular peace of cocoon
>>would be exactly what i need, but unfortunately i dropped it
>>by stripping down cocoon earlier. Now i can try to find out,
>>what i have to put back into my webapp to get the new stuff
>>up and running hmm... not convinced.
>
>
> I tend to both agree and disagree at the same time... ;o)
>
> Thinking back to Apache Webserver... When I first opened the httpd.conf (which
> in those days was spread out over three files to make matters worse), I was
> overwhelmed with the sheer amount of settings, and closed it (them) quickly.
>
> I realized I needed to dig through that to get my server up and running (the
> defaults were also less perfect than today), and every line was scrutinized;
> "Do I need to change this?", "What does this mean?" and a lot "Wow, can I do
> that?"
>
> So, although it scared the "mud-like-substance" out of me, it also re-inforced
> the learning speed.
>
> Looking at that (because I was too involved with the inception of sitemaps,
> generators, aggregation and all the rest, so I know what it means in Cocoon,
> and is not a "neutral" first user) I think I can give this feedback;
>
> Any configuration file, be it httpd.conf or sitemaps, should be organized in a
> couple of sections, and ordered in some kind of priority order, where lesser
> used features, or very advanced features are placed far from the top.
> If the first "section" covers the "essentials", and clearly indicates that "If
> you are setting up Cocoon the first time, you probably don't need to go
> beyond this point..." it would be great.
>
>
> What I am trying to say; Complex new settings environments (such as sitemaps)
> are intimidating at first (especially if your editor is not XML aware with
> syntax highlighting), but it is easier to review and modify sample entries,
> than trying to pick them up from a xdoc and "get it to work".
> Also, the comments should be more descriptive, especially what the Cocoon
> specific terms means, so if I am reasonably bright, I don't need much more
> documentation.
>
> Niclas
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>
--
Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
SAXESS Software Design GmbH
Neuenhöfer Allee 125
50935 Köln
Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
Fax: +49-221-56011-20
E-Mail: dabbous@saxess.com
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Monday 03 February 2003 23:50, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
> I would like to distinguish between
> "creating a webapp with minimal cocoon"
> and
> "creating a webapp with minimal functionality"
> http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CreateMinimalWebapp
>
> would not be what a beginner wants to start with, before they
> get something to see. In my eyes this may be "step 2". But to
> be honest here, i never thought of stripping down cocoon
> to its basics. i just keep it as is and use what i need.
> One day i may find out, that a very particular peace of cocoon
> would be exactly what i need, but unfortunately i dropped it
> by stripping down cocoon earlier. Now i can try to find out,
> what i have to put back into my webapp to get the new stuff
> up and running hmm... not convinced.
I tend to both agree and disagree at the same time... ;o)
Thinking back to Apache Webserver... When I first opened the httpd.conf (which
in those days was spread out over three files to make matters worse), I was
overwhelmed with the sheer amount of settings, and closed it (them) quickly.
I realized I needed to dig through that to get my server up and running (the
defaults were also less perfect than today), and every line was scrutinized;
"Do I need to change this?", "What does this mean?" and a lot "Wow, can I do
that?"
So, although it scared the "mud-like-substance" out of me, it also re-inforced
the learning speed.
Looking at that (because I was too involved with the inception of sitemaps,
generators, aggregation and all the rest, so I know what it means in Cocoon,
and is not a "neutral" first user) I think I can give this feedback;
Any configuration file, be it httpd.conf or sitemaps, should be organized in a
couple of sections, and ordered in some kind of priority order, where lesser
used features, or very advanced features are placed far from the top.
If the first "section" covers the "essentials", and clearly indicates that "If
you are setting up Cocoon the first time, you probably don't need to go
beyond this point..." it would be great.
What I am trying to say; Complex new settings environments (such as sitemaps)
are intimidating at first (especially if your editor is not XML aware with
syntax highlighting), but it is easier to review and modify sample entries,
than trying to pick them up from a xdoc and "get it to work".
Also, the comments should be more descriptive, especially what the Cocoon
specific terms means, so if I am reasonably bright, I don't need much more
documentation.
Niclas
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous <da...@saxess.com>.
I would like to distinguish between
"creating a webapp with minimal cocoon"
and
"creating a webapp with minimal functionality"
Although both issues adress similar points, i think,
the bignners should not be bothered with isolating
the jars they "really need" for their app just to get
an as small as possible webapplication at the end.
I am afraid the WikiPage
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CreateMinimalWebapp
would not be what a beginner wants to start with, before they
get something to see. In my eyes this may be "step 2". But to
be honest here, i never thought of stripping down cocoon
to its basics. i just keep it as is and use what i need.
One day i may find out, that a very particular peace of cocoon
would be exactly what i need, but unfortunately i dropped it
by stripping down cocoon earlier. Now i can try to find out,
what i have to put back into my webapp to get the new stuff
up and running hmm... not convinced.
I would rather focus on the minimal functionality,
thus a webapplication, that does something usefull,
but can be easily understood without need to know
too many details of full cocoon.
This i would consider as "step one"
In this sense ->
1.) create a minimal webapp with the distrib as is.
2.) optional strip down cocoon to its basics
would this find consense in the comunity ?
regards, hussayn
Geoff Howard wrote:
> When trying to help a frustrated new user recently, I did something like
> this for 2.0.4. I believe the clean-webapp Chris mentioned is only in
> 2.1dev? I assembled a minimal webapp that did only static xml and static
> xsl, had no other samples, and had most of the unecessary (for a static
> hello world) component definitions in sitemap.xmap commented out.
>
> The process I used is documented at
> http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CreateMinimalWebapp
>
> If that is of interest to anyone I could upload the war too, but it's 5meg
> and I'm stuck till tomorrow with dial up access. It's also built for
> jdk1.4.
>
> Geoff
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous [mailto:dabbous@saxess.com]
>>Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:44 AM
>>To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
>>Subject: Re: sample web-app too complex?
>>
>>
>>Hy, Michael, Bertrand;
>>
>>I had the idea to create a simple webapp, that already is
>>complete in the sense that it does something "real". So the
>>user could simply take it, create some content, then fiddle
>>around with whatever (sitemap, stylesheets and so on) to see
>>the effects.
>>
>>This webapp could be accompanied with a tutorial, that introduces
>>the different peaces of the webapp in detail.
>>
>>A new user could either take the tutorial and create this webapp
>>from scratch, or just grab a zip, unpack it and start from there.
>>This webapp could find its place in the Wiki "building your
>>first webapp in one day"... In fact o thought of simply giving
>>away the infrastructure of my own website (about 5 files in total),
>>which is really simple enough, yet usefull and productive ...
>>
>>Of course the webapp could already be included in the
>>cocoon distrib, but i have all people in mind, who want
>>to play with the current released versions and just get something
>>reasonable to work in no time ...
>>
>>Any commetns on that ?
>>
>>regards, hussayn
>>
>>Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Michael,
>>>
>>>
>>>>I know that we probably have had this discussion before, but is there a
>>>>reason why we dont have simple "Hello-World" sample web-app along side
>>>>the current sample web-app? (or does there already exist an independent
>>>>"hello-world" web-app that Im not aware of?)
>>>
>>>
>>>I agree, a minimal sample webapp, that can be studied independently of
>>>the existing ones, would be useful.
>>>
>>>Are you thinking about a CRUD (Create-Retrieve-Update-Delete) webapp
>>>with database stuff, or something "read-only" where various formats are
>>>published from a small set of simple XML files?
>>>
>>>-Bertrand
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
>>>For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>--
>>Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
>>SAXESS Software Design GmbH
>>Neuenhöfer Allee 125
>>50935 Köln
>>Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
>>Fax: +49-221-56011-20
>>E-Mail: dabbous@saxess.com
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
>>For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>
--
Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
SAXESS Software Design GmbH
Neuenhöfer Allee 125
50935 Köln
Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
Fax: +49-221-56011-20
E-Mail: dabbous@saxess.com
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RE: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Geoff Howard <co...@leverageweb.com>.
When trying to help a frustrated new user recently, I did something like
this for 2.0.4. I believe the clean-webapp Chris mentioned is only in
2.1dev? I assembled a minimal webapp that did only static xml and static
xsl, had no other samples, and had most of the unecessary (for a static
hello world) component definitions in sitemap.xmap commented out.
The process I used is documented at
http://wiki.cocoondev.org/Wiki.jsp?page=CreateMinimalWebapp
If that is of interest to anyone I could upload the war too, but it's 5meg
and I'm stuck till tomorrow with dial up access. It's also built for
jdk1.4.
Geoff
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous [mailto:dabbous@saxess.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:44 AM
> To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: sample web-app too complex?
>
>
> Hy, Michael, Bertrand;
>
> I had the idea to create a simple webapp, that already is
> complete in the sense that it does something "real". So the
> user could simply take it, create some content, then fiddle
> around with whatever (sitemap, stylesheets and so on) to see
> the effects.
>
> This webapp could be accompanied with a tutorial, that introduces
> the different peaces of the webapp in detail.
>
> A new user could either take the tutorial and create this webapp
> from scratch, or just grab a zip, unpack it and start from there.
> This webapp could find its place in the Wiki "building your
> first webapp in one day"... In fact o thought of simply giving
> away the infrastructure of my own website (about 5 files in total),
> which is really simple enough, yet usefull and productive ...
>
> Of course the webapp could already be included in the
> cocoon distrib, but i have all people in mind, who want
> to play with the current released versions and just get something
> reasonable to work in no time ...
>
> Any commetns on that ?
>
> regards, hussayn
>
> Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> >> I know that we probably have had this discussion before, but is there a
> >> reason why we dont have simple "Hello-World" sample web-app along side
> >> the current sample web-app? (or does there already exist an independent
> >> "hello-world" web-app that Im not aware of?)
> >
> >
> > I agree, a minimal sample webapp, that can be studied independently of
> > the existing ones, would be useful.
> >
> > Are you thinking about a CRUD (Create-Retrieve-Update-Delete) webapp
> > with database stuff, or something "read-only" where various formats are
> > published from a small set of simple XML files?
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> > For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
> >
>
> --
> Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
> SAXESS Software Design GmbH
> Neuenhöfer Allee 125
> 50935 Köln
> Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
> Fax: +49-221-56011-20
> E-Mail: dabbous@saxess.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>
>
>
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous <da...@saxess.com>.
Hy, Michael, Bertrand;
I had the idea to create a simple webapp, that already is
complete in the sense that it does something "real". So the
user could simply take it, create some content, then fiddle
around with whatever (sitemap, stylesheets and so on) to see
the effects.
This webapp could be accompanied with a tutorial, that introduces
the different peaces of the webapp in detail.
A new user could either take the tutorial and create this webapp
from scratch, or just grab a zip, unpack it and start from there.
This webapp could find its place in the Wiki "building your
first webapp in one day"... In fact o thought of simply giving
away the infrastructure of my own website (about 5 files in total),
which is really simple enough, yet usefull and productive ...
Of course the webapp could already be included in the
cocoon distrib, but i have all people in mind, who want
to play with the current released versions and just get something
reasonable to work in no time ...
Any commetns on that ?
regards, hussayn
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
>> I know that we probably have had this discussion before, but is there a
>> reason why we dont have simple "Hello-World" sample web-app along side
>> the current sample web-app? (or does there already exist an independent
>> "hello-world" web-app that Im not aware of?)
>
>
> I agree, a minimal sample webapp, that can be studied independently of
> the existing ones, would be useful.
>
> Are you thinking about a CRUD (Create-Retrieve-Update-Delete) webapp
> with database stuff, or something "read-only" where various formats are
> published from a small set of simple XML files?
>
> -Bertrand
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>
--
Dr. Hussayn Dabbous
SAXESS Software Design GmbH
Neuenhöfer Allee 125
50935 Köln
Telefon: +49-221-56011-0
Fax: +49-221-56011-20
E-Mail: dabbous@saxess.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: sample web-app too complex?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Hi Michael,
> I know that we probably have had this discussion before, but is there a
> reason why we dont have simple "Hello-World" sample web-app along side
> the current sample web-app? (or does there already exist an independent
> "hello-world" web-app that Im not aware of?)
I agree, a minimal sample webapp, that can be studied independently of
the existing ones, would be useful.
Are you thinking about a CRUD (Create-Retrieve-Update-Delete) webapp
with database stuff, or something "read-only" where various formats are
published from a small set of simple XML files?
-Bertrand
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