Re: Nobody from the ASF is helping (ESME) sustain or build momentum or community

[Anne Kathrine Petteroe <yo...@gmail.com>]

I have a question for Erik.

In a comment on David's post you say:
"I just don't see the path, other than perhaps Siemens, SAP, or some  
other sponsor paying people to write the code. Which, of course, would  
fit with other ASF projects."

How does this sponsorship work?
Does ASF have projects which are commercial open source?

/Anne

On 3. mai. 2009, at 11.25, Richard Hirsch wrote:

> I agree with Vassil in that the main issue deals with the creation of
> exceptional open-source code and the different ways to build the  
> community
> to support such code. Much of the debate revolving around the ASF  
> concerns
> unspoken expectations - what should / can ASF provide emerging  
> projects. As
> Gianugo puts it
>
>> The actual community building is however a task for the project  
>> itself: the
>> ASF isn't Midas and won't be able to
>> turn an unattractive project into sexy stuff that gathers time and
>> enthusiasm from volunteers.
>
>
> IMHO, the ASF provides the structure - based on years of experience  
> - and
> infrastructure to support such communities.  I
> think all open-source projects want to succeed. There is always some  
> hidden
> hope that the ASF's Midas touch will lead to a stream of new  
> developers
> contributing to this success.  I think in the ASF the focus is on  
> doing
> things the "Apache" way as a means of creating this community.   
> Although ASF
> can provide guidance based upon what has been successful in other  
> Apache
> projects, it can't be expected to do the grunt work for all its  
> projects.
> We could expect more "lessons learned" from other ASF projects  
> coming from
> the mentors but the actual application of these ideas has to come  
> from us.
>
> Speaking of grunt work, we should probably be considering what to do  
> about
> the necessity of rewriting the ESME codebase as  David and Erik  
> describe. We
> can have the best wiki in the ASF but ESME is a software project and  
> without
> a solid code base we aren't going to get very far.
>
> D.
>
> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Vassil Dichev <vd...@apache.org>  
> wrote:
>
>> Without trying to get into David's mind, I'd like to point out that
>> David's blog post was more of a reaction to defend the Rails
>> community. I must say it's possible to get the point across even
>> without the unfortunate comparison with the ASF. The point is this:
>> it's hard writing exceptional software. I think you both agree on one
>> count: even guidance and support don't guarantee a groundbreaking
>> software project. If success was easy to reproduce, someone would  
>> have
>> discovered a way of generating groundbreaking software projects on a
>> mass scale.
>>
>> Now I don't think that a software project has to be groundbreaking to
>> be useful. I have no illusions that ESME is destined to be as
>> groundbreaking as e.g. Rails. I still hope it has the chance to be
>> useful.
>>
>> With that said, I hope that any heated arguments originating from the
>> Rails scandal are over soon, because there are probably no two people
>> who agree on which software is useful or groundbreaking. And the time
>> and effort spent in a discussion like this could be spent creating
>> software.
>>
>> Vassil
>>

Re: Nobody from the ASF is helping (ESME) sustain or build momentum or community

[Erik Engbrecht <er...@gmail.com>]

Basically the sponsoring company starts paying a developer to start hacking
a submit patches.  Eventually he should rise through the meritocracy and
become a committer.  Given the current level of activity on ESME and
assuming the developer is decent that shouldn't take long.
I don't think ASF does anything special with regards to sponsorship other
than provide a neutral ground for contributions and a framework that I think
can make corporations feel a little more comfortable with the idea of
letting their IP go out the door.

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Anne Kathrine Petteroe <yo...@gmail.com>wrote:

> I have a question for Erik.
>
> In a comment on David's post you say:
> "I just don't see the path, other than perhaps Siemens, SAP, or some other
> sponsor paying people to write the code. Which, of course, would fit with
> other ASF projects."
>
> How does this sponsorship work?
> Does ASF have projects which are commercial open source?
>
> /Anne
>
>
> On 3. mai. 2009, at 11.25, Richard Hirsch wrote:
>
>  I agree with Vassil in that the main issue deals with the creation of
>> exceptional open-source code and the different ways to build the community
>> to support such code. Much of the debate revolving around the ASF concerns
>> unspoken expectations - what should / can ASF provide emerging projects.
>> As
>> Gianugo puts it
>>
>>  The actual community building is however a task for the project itself:
>>> the
>>> ASF isn't Midas and won't be able to
>>> turn an unattractive project into sexy stuff that gathers time and
>>> enthusiasm from volunteers.
>>>
>>
>>
>> IMHO, the ASF provides the structure - based on years of experience - and
>> infrastructure to support such communities.  I
>> think all open-source projects want to succeed. There is always some
>> hidden
>> hope that the ASF's Midas touch will lead to a stream of new developers
>> contributing to this success.  I think in the ASF the focus is on doing
>> things the "Apache" way as a means of creating this community.  Although
>> ASF
>> can provide guidance based upon what has been successful in other Apache
>> projects, it can't be expected to do the grunt work for all its projects.
>> We could expect more "lessons learned" from other ASF projects coming from
>> the mentors but the actual application of these ideas has to come from us.
>>
>> Speaking of grunt work, we should probably be considering what to do about
>> the necessity of rewriting the ESME codebase as  David and Erik describe.
>> We
>> can have the best wiki in the ASF but ESME is a software project and
>> without
>> a solid code base we aren't going to get very far.
>>
>> D.
>>
>> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Vassil Dichev <vd...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Without trying to get into David's mind, I'd like to point out that
>>> David's blog post was more of a reaction to defend the Rails
>>> community. I must say it's possible to get the point across even
>>> without the unfortunate comparison with the ASF. The point is this:
>>> it's hard writing exceptional software. I think you both agree on one
>>> count: even guidance and support don't guarantee a groundbreaking
>>> software project. If success was easy to reproduce, someone would have
>>> discovered a way of generating groundbreaking software projects on a
>>> mass scale.
>>>
>>> Now I don't think that a software project has to be groundbreaking to
>>> be useful. I have no illusions that ESME is destined to be as
>>> groundbreaking as e.g. Rails. I still hope it has the chance to be
>>> useful.
>>>
>>> With that said, I hope that any heated arguments originating from the
>>> Rails scandal are over soon, because there are probably no two people
>>> who agree on which software is useful or groundbreaking. And the time
>>> and effort spent in a discussion like this could be spent creating
>>> software.
>>>
>>> Vassil
>>>
>>>
>


-- 
http://erikengbrecht.blogspot.com/

Re: Nobody from the ASF is helping (ESME) sustain or build momentum or community

[David Pollak <fe...@gmail.com>]

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Gianugo Rabellino <
g.rabellino@sourcesense.com> wrote:

> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 7:07 PM, David Pollak
> <fe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Gianugo Rabellino <
> > g.rabellino@sourcesense.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Anne Kathrine Petteroe
> >> <yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > I have a question for Erik.
> >> >
> >> > In a comment on David's post you say:
> >> > "I just don't see the path, other than perhaps Siemens, SAP, or some
> >> other
> >> > sponsor paying people to write the code. Which, of course, would fit
> with
> >> > other ASF projects."
> >> >
> >> > How does this sponsorship work?
> >> > Does ASF have projects which are commercial open source?
> >>
> >> Anne,
> >>
> >> I'm walking a fine line here, so full disclosure first (and apologies
> >> if it's perceived as spam): my company provides, among others, those
> >> kind of services and we have been, although in a somewhat different
> >> way, doing something very similar to sponsored work on another Apache
> >> project (POI) on behalf of a "sponsor" (Microsoft). I won't abuse any
> >> further of the public list, but feel free to contact me if you want to
> >> know more about what we did over there.
> >
> >
> > ESME is not a corporate sponsored project.  It's not a project funded by
> the
> > likes of Microsoft, SAP, etc.  It's a community effort.
>
> FTR, neither is POI.
>
> > If I were to choose
> > a firm to help guide ESME, I'd recommend RedMonk.  Why?  Because the
> RedMonk
> > folks are very good and have already participated in ESME (plus there are
> > good personal relationships.)
>
> RedMonk as in the analyst RedMonk? They can definitely be helpful,
> although that kinda collides with the idea of having more developers.
> Anyway, they are good blokes indeed and I would suggest them to anyone
> who needs analyst help with Open Source stuff..
>
> > If you want to demonstrate that you've got any value to offer other than
> > trying to suck money out of Anne's budget for your services and piss on
> me,
> > perhaps you can be positive about helping to analyze ESME and what this
> > project needs to succeed in the ASF and beyond... without any corporate
> > support.
>
> Whatever, David. I knew my disclaimer could have been read as a plug,
> but I just prefer being over-transparent. Making my point without
> noting that I happen to make a living out of those services Anne was
> inquiring for would have been dodgy. For now, you're getting my free
> time and attention, and I'm still more than happy to help ESME out,


So far, I have seen no value from your time and attention.  I have seen some
significant costs associated with your posts.

Are you willing to help with what ESME needs?  Are you willing to mentor
Anne and Dick in their leadership role of this project?  What value do you
have to help manage the energy and momentum of this project?

>
> assuming we can find a way to move on without throwing insults. I just
> have much better things to do than stay in front of pointless
> mudslinging.
>
> --
> Gianugo Rabellino
> M: +44 779 5364 932 / +39 389 44 26 846
> Sourcesense - making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com
>



-- 
Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
Git some: http://github.com/dpp

Re: Nobody from the ASF is helping (ESME) sustain or build momentum or community

[Gianugo Rabellino <g....@sourcesense.com>]

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 7:07 PM, David Pollak
<fe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Gianugo Rabellino <
> g.rabellino@sourcesense.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Anne Kathrine Petteroe
>> <yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I have a question for Erik.
>> >
>> > In a comment on David's post you say:
>> > "I just don't see the path, other than perhaps Siemens, SAP, or some
>> other
>> > sponsor paying people to write the code. Which, of course, would fit with
>> > other ASF projects."
>> >
>> > How does this sponsorship work?
>> > Does ASF have projects which are commercial open source?
>>
>> Anne,
>>
>> I'm walking a fine line here, so full disclosure first (and apologies
>> if it's perceived as spam): my company provides, among others, those
>> kind of services and we have been, although in a somewhat different
>> way, doing something very similar to sponsored work on another Apache
>> project (POI) on behalf of a "sponsor" (Microsoft). I won't abuse any
>> further of the public list, but feel free to contact me if you want to
>> know more about what we did over there.
>
>
> ESME is not a corporate sponsored project.  It's not a project funded by the
> likes of Microsoft, SAP, etc.  It's a community effort.

FTR, neither is POI.

> If I were to choose
> a firm to help guide ESME, I'd recommend RedMonk.  Why?  Because the RedMonk
> folks are very good and have already participated in ESME (plus there are
> good personal relationships.)

RedMonk as in the analyst RedMonk? They can definitely be helpful,
although that kinda collides with the idea of having more developers.
Anyway, they are good blokes indeed and I would suggest them to anyone
who needs analyst help with Open Source stuff..

> If you want to demonstrate that you've got any value to offer other than
> trying to suck money out of Anne's budget for your services and piss on me,
> perhaps you can be positive about helping to analyze ESME and what this
> project needs to succeed in the ASF and beyond... without any corporate
> support.

Whatever, David. I knew my disclaimer could have been read as a plug,
but I just prefer being over-transparent. Making my point without
noting that I happen to make a living out of those services Anne was
inquiring for would have been dodgy. For now, you're getting my free
time and attention, and I'm still more than happy to help ESME out,
assuming we can find a way to move on without throwing insults. I just
have much better things to do than stay in front of pointless
mudslinging.

-- 
Gianugo Rabellino
M: +44 779 5364 932 / +39 389 44 26 846
Sourcesense - making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com

Re: Nobody from the ASF is helping (ESME) sustain or build momentum or community

[David Pollak <fe...@gmail.com>]

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Gianugo Rabellino <
g.rabellino@sourcesense.com> wrote:

> On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Anne Kathrine Petteroe
> <yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have a question for Erik.
> >
> > In a comment on David's post you say:
> > "I just don't see the path, other than perhaps Siemens, SAP, or some
> other
> > sponsor paying people to write the code. Which, of course, would fit with
> > other ASF projects."
> >
> > How does this sponsorship work?
> > Does ASF have projects which are commercial open source?
>
> Anne,
>
> I'm walking a fine line here, so full disclosure first (and apologies
> if it's perceived as spam): my company provides, among others, those
> kind of services and we have been, although in a somewhat different
> way, doing something very similar to sponsored work on another Apache
> project (POI) on behalf of a "sponsor" (Microsoft). I won't abuse any
> further of the public list, but feel free to contact me if you want to
> know more about what we did over there.


ESME is not a corporate sponsored project.  It's not a project funded by the
likes of Microsoft, SAP, etc.  It's a community effort.  If I were to choose
a firm to help guide ESME, I'd recommend RedMonk.  Why?  Because the RedMonk
folks are very good and have already participated in ESME (plus there are
good personal relationships.)

If you want to demonstrate that you've got any value to offer other than
trying to suck money out of Anne's budget for your services and piss on me,
perhaps you can be positive about helping to analyze ESME and what this
project needs to succeed in the ASF and beyond... without any corporate
support.

Oh, and yes, I do have experience building open source communities.


>
>
> There are loads of issues to be aware of, and Bertrand correctly
> summarized the most relevant, but it's absolutely kosher to hire third
> parties to develop code that might eventually land in Apache (if the
> community agrees, and if the _individuals_ who are writing it manage
> to earn their way into the community). Actually, the Apache license is
> designed with that kind of flexibility in mind, and the Apache
> community is built on top of a great ecosystem which takes all sort of
> collaboration into account, including corporate employees,
> contractors, sponsors, services companies, consultants, students and
> geeks. We know and understand that the vast majority of code that
> lands @ the ASF has someone footing the bill, but the Foundation goes
> at extreme length to make sure that such contributions are handled in
> a community-friendly way with all the Apache magic (meritocracy,
> community over code, etc...) in mind.
>
> So, in short: money can buy development time, and that in turn can buy
> you (indirectly!) community outreach and help in building momentum
> towards a successful project. It's an added bonus for that development
> time to be invested in an Apache-friendly way (i.e. no "code dumps",
> people participating to the discussion, meritocracy and all that), as
> otherwise you would run the risk of seeing contributions being turned
> down. What money will not buy you is any particular ASF love, cut
> corners, graduation or bent rules: actually, doing it right might
> require some additional scrutiny (e.g. the "three indipendent business
> entities backing the project" might require some review if you were to
> hire a third party to actually work on your behalf), but it might also
> help building an open and diverse community which is able to withstand
> the test of time.
>
> HTH,
>
> --
> Gianugo Rabellino
> M: +44 779 5364 932 / +39 389 44 26 846
> Sourcesense - making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com
>



-- 
Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
Git some: http://github.com/dpp

Re: Nobody from the ASF is helping (ESME) sustain or build momentum or community

[Gianugo Rabellino <g....@sourcesense.com>]

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Anne Kathrine Petteroe
<yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a question for Erik.
>
> In a comment on David's post you say:
> "I just don't see the path, other than perhaps Siemens, SAP, or some other
> sponsor paying people to write the code. Which, of course, would fit with
> other ASF projects."
>
> How does this sponsorship work?
> Does ASF have projects which are commercial open source?

Anne,

I'm walking a fine line here, so full disclosure first (and apologies
if it's perceived as spam): my company provides, among others, those
kind of services and we have been, although in a somewhat different
way, doing something very similar to sponsored work on another Apache
project (POI) on behalf of a "sponsor" (Microsoft). I won't abuse any
further of the public list, but feel free to contact me if you want to
know more about what we did over there.

There are loads of issues to be aware of, and Bertrand correctly
summarized the most relevant, but it's absolutely kosher to hire third
parties to develop code that might eventually land in Apache (if the
community agrees, and if the _individuals_ who are writing it manage
to earn their way into the community). Actually, the Apache license is
designed with that kind of flexibility in mind, and the Apache
community is built on top of a great ecosystem which takes all sort of
collaboration into account, including corporate employees,
contractors, sponsors, services companies, consultants, students and
geeks. We know and understand that the vast majority of code that
lands @ the ASF has someone footing the bill, but the Foundation goes
at extreme length to make sure that such contributions are handled in
a community-friendly way with all the Apache magic (meritocracy,
community over code, etc...) in mind.

So, in short: money can buy development time, and that in turn can buy
you (indirectly!) community outreach and help in building momentum
towards a successful project. It's an added bonus for that development
time to be invested in an Apache-friendly way (i.e. no "code dumps",
people participating to the discussion, meritocracy and all that), as
otherwise you would run the risk of seeing contributions being turned
down. What money will not buy you is any particular ASF love, cut
corners, graduation or bent rules: actually, doing it right might
require some additional scrutiny (e.g. the "three indipendent business
entities backing the project" might require some review if you were to
hire a third party to actually work on your behalf), but it might also
help building an open and diverse community which is able to withstand
the test of time.

HTH,

-- 
Gianugo Rabellino
M: +44 779 5364 932 / +39 389 44 26 846
Sourcesense - making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com

Re: Nobody from the ASF is helping (ESME) sustain or build momentum or community

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Anne Kathrine Petteroe
<yo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...I have a question for Erik.
>
> In a comment on David's post you say:
> "I just don't see the path, other than perhaps Siemens, SAP, or some other
> sponsor paying people to write the code. Which, of course, would fit with
> other ASF projects."
>
> How does this sponsorship work?
> Does ASF have projects which are commercial open source?...

It's not uncommon for ASF developers to work on projects in their work
time, and I think in the last few years this has become much more
common.

The important thing is that the ASF is not involved with this in any
way - if a company wants to hire a developer or contractor to work on
ASF software, they are free to do so, but ASF projects involve
individuals, not companies.

>From the ASF's perspective, what is important is that project
decisions are made by individuals and not companies. To graduate from
the incubator, a project needs at least three committers who are
independent from each other in a business sense, i.e. employed by
independent companies or self-employed.

To take a concrete example, if a company were to hire someone to work
on ESME, and that someone is not currently active on the project, that
person would have to prove their merit and follow the usual process to
become a committer - there's no way for someone to "buy a seat" in an
ASF project.

-Bertrand