RE: tomcat 5.0 vs. 5.5? tomcat 5.5 has been bad!

[David Grace <pr...@dutchie.net>]

Hi all,

Maybe the solution to the problems with bad posts can be solved by an
email once a month that describes exactly what the accepted posting
policy is. I realize these are already known by many and are covered in
this thread but spelling it out each month can’t hurt.

Dave.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smith [mailto:dns4@cornell.edu] 
Sent: Saturday, 1 April 2006 12:42 AM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: tomcat 5.0 vs. 5.5? tomcat 5.5 has been bad!

Then you are most definitely one of the better posters to the list.  I
hope you don't take my message too personally.  I was really responding
to Tim's comments.  Overall it looks like logging is an area where
someone might want to volunteer a documentation patch to tomcat.

--David

Dean Hiller wrote:

> Those things I did....you can read my previous posts.  warning though:
> newbs have a hard time doing this, so go easy on us.  I had no idea
> what to include from the beginning.  I had to search my way through
it.
> thanks,
> dean
>
> David Smith wrote:
>
>> Too true Tim.  I've been on this list since the tomcat 3 days and it
>> never fails to impress me how many questions fall into one of three
>> categories:
>>
>> 1) Questions easily answerable by reading the docs.  These are the
RTFM
>> questions.
>> 2) Repeats of previously posted and answered questions.  These are
the
>> "Search the Fantastic Web" (STFW) questions.
>> 3) Questions so devoid of any useful information they are completely
>> unanswerable.  The "it doesn't work, please help" questions.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong -- there are some excellent questions with even
>> better answers.  I stay on the list for those gems.
>>
>> For those out there who are thinking about asking questions, here's
my
>> advice:
>>
>> 1) Define you problem.  The more detail you gather, the better for
both
>> yourself and those that help.  Specifically take a look at the logs
and
>> consider the demands your webapp is making on the server.
>>
>> 2) If you are designing a webapp or library, insert effective logging
>> from the beginning.  With both commons-logging and log4j, the log
level
>> and classes being logged can be controlled from their respective
>> configuration files.  The logging can be left in for production, just
>> reconfigure for error level logging and the debug stuff won't show.
>>
>> 3) Do a couple of searches on your favorite search engine even if all
>> you get out of it is the proper terms to describe your issue.  In the
>> process you may also find similar posts to shed some light on your
>> problem.
>>
>> 4) Take a look the online docs for the product you are using.  Tomcat
>> leverages a fair number of other projects and standards.  Those docs
may
>> also apply to your problem.  For instance in this thread,
>> Commons-Logging and Log4j project docs would help.
>>
>> 5) Don't be shy about posting a long email.  The important things are
to
>> be specific, show relevant code and complete log info.  You may have
>> been staring at your problem for two weeks -- we haven't and need the
>> info to help.
>>
>> --David
>>
>> Tim Lucia wrote:
>>
>>  
>>
>>> Switch places with them for a minute -- They are providing free
>>> support and
>>> pretty good support at that.  Note that there are many, many basic
>>> questions
>>> that could easily be answered by reading the documentation ("RTFM")
>>> or by
>>> Googling ("STFW"), but instead posters demand immediate help as
their
>>> homework is due in 20 minutes, or their boss is sitting in the chair
>>> behind
>>> them.  Now take a potshot at the most useful, widely used, and
>>> COMPLETELY
>>> FREE application server, which you paid nothing for, have no support
>>> contract for (again, you paid nothing), and occasionally someone is
>>> bound to
>>> take it a little personally.  I have (casually) observed that the
>>> level of
>>> 'snippetyness' from the responder is inversely proportional to the
>>> quality
>>> of the question.
>>>
>>> On the subject of log4j.jar without log4j.properties, don't get mad
at
>>> Tomcat / Tomcat developers.  Get mad at the idiot developers who
>>> shipped a
>>> war file without a) knowing how to perform logging and b) performing
>>> basic
>>> testing.
>>> I help out when I can.  If I'm not sure, but have a minute, *I* will
>>> often
>>> STFW and/or RTFM to make sure.  If I can do it, then so can you (the
>>> royal
>>> you) and you didn't have to post.  Ask intelligent questions, and
>>> you will
>>> get intelligent answers.  Show an unwillingness to learn anything,
>>> and you
>>> will get snubbed.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Allistair Crossley [mailto:Allistair.Crossley@QAS.com] Sent:
>>> Friday, March 31, 2006 6:39 AM
>>> To: Tomcat Users List
>>> Subject: RE: tomcat 5.0 vs. 5.5? tomcat 5.5 has been bad!
>>>
>>> Please don't think it's the whole Tomcat community Dean, there are
some
>>> really helpful devs on Tomat, it's just Remy in particular has a
>>> problem
>>> being polite/arrogant about Tomcat - I guess from his privileged
>>> point of
>>> view he understands everything about Tomcat and therefore does not
>>> understand what usability is all about.
>>>
>>> All the best, AC.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Dean Hiller [mailto:dean@xsoftware.biz] Sent: 31 March 2006
11:39
>>> To: Tomcat Users List
>>> Subject: Re: tomcat 5.0 vs. 5.5? tomcat 5.5 has been bad!
>>>
>>>   wow! you guys sound pretty harsh when it comes to messages to help
>>> users
>>> on simple mistakes then.  I recently dropped in someone else's
>>> example app
>>> war file that had the SAME PROBLEM.....latest facelets.  I could not
>>> even
>>> give back information to help them debug the problem.  It was
standard
>>> tomcat 5.5.16.  It worked on 5.0 just fine.  I now know that I need
>>> to unzip
>>> their war file, remove log4j(and maybe even hope that they are using
>>> commons, because if they are not, I may be utterly screwed).  Then I
>>> need to
>>> redeploy their app.  I need to do all this because tomcat is
>>> unwilling to
>>> give good helpful messages as to what is going on(as seen by all the
>>> other
>>> posts that have had trouble figuring out their problems behind that
>>> error
>>> with no reponses either.....I was the lucky one and finally figured
>>> out what
>>> was wrong).  I can only hope others can find my solution post
without
>>> wasting too much time.
>>> later,
>>> dean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Remy Maucherat wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>> On 3/30/06, Markus Schönhaber <ma...@schoenhaber.de>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>>> The RuntimeException is to make it more noticeable in the logs.  
>>>>>> I mean
>>>>>> 953 hits on googling is quite alot of people having trouble. 
>>>>>> Would be nice to cut that number down with an easy log statement
>>>>>> that tomcat could add!!!
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>         
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, if it's really that easy you should definitely provide a
patch.
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>    
>>>>>       
>>>>
>>>> I recommend not wasting time, as I would refuse such a nonsensical
>>>> patch. The actual worakround is to learn how to properly use
>>>> logging, which seems to be a useful skill.
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Rémy Maucherat
>>>> Developer & Consultant
>>>> JBoss Inc
>>>> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>     
>>>
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>>
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>>  
>>
>
>
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-- 
=======================================
David Smith
Network Operations Supervisor
Department of Entomology
College of Agriculture & Life Sciences
Cornell University
2132 Comstock Hall
Ithaca, NY  14853
Phone: 607.255.9571
Fax: 607.255.0939


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Re: tomcat 5.0 vs. 5.5? tomcat 5.5 has been bad!

[Shankar Unni <sh...@netscape.net>]

David Grace wrote:

> Maybe the solution to the problems with bad posts can be solved by an
> email once a month that describes exactly what the accepted posting
> policy is. 

Ah, but that's not enough - see, that would require that you actually 
read the archives, and that's something that's apparently way beyond the 
capabilities / desires of some of the users here.

Perhaps we should auto-reply to every post with a form reply asking for 
more info :-).

And regarding:

 > 3) Questions so devoid of any useful information they are completely
 > unanswerable.  The "it doesn't work, please help" questions.

Would be somewhat more tolerable if the "please" appeared there. Often 
it's "it doesn't work - stupid (#*$) tomcat developers - make it work - 
what kind of (*%#*) is this!".

Admittedly some of them (developers) are, umm, less than tactful, but 
that's basically what you get.


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