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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Heidi Buelow <he...@roguewave.com> on 2005/05/13 23:27:28 UTC
Proposal for STDCXX
Proposal for an Apache-run version of the C++ Standard Library
Submission date: 12 May 2005, Tim Triemstra, Heidi Buelow (TimT @ RogueWave
dot-com, Buelow @ RogueWave dot-com)
(0) rationale
The goal of the Apache C++ Standard Library project is to provide a free
implementation of the ISO/EIC 14882 international standard, often called the
"STL" or "stdlib", which is consistent and portable across all major
platforms and compilers. For the sake of this proposal, the project will be
called "STDCXX" to blend in with other Apache names.
Currently, C++ developers spend considerable effort porting code among
platforms, as compiler vendors are focused on backward compatibility rather
than cross-platform portability. There are other free implementations, but
none have the quality, license flexibility, or platform support necessary to
serve as a universal foundation for the C++ language.
Rogue Wave Software will jump start this project by contributing the
commercial C++ Standard Library it has been shipping for over a decade. This
is a new, enhanced version of the OEM library provided by many vendors,
including ARM, Sun Microsystems, HP and others. Unique attributes include:
Complete compliance with the C++ standard
Complete implementation of locale library (not OS dependant)
User control over strict or loose standards compliance
Largest test suite of any major implementation
High performance
Reference counted basic_string using atomic locking
Thread-safety, including iostream and locale objects
Fast compiles and extremely small executable file sizes
Proven, portable, and fully tested on each platform
Many platforms (Windows, Linux, Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, etc.)
Platform-specific compilers (eg: MSVC, Sun Forte, HP aCC, GCC)
Fully configurable and documented build control
Ten years of deployment in the world's most critical systems
Highly respected documentation, well maintained and up to date
The day the project is launched, it will already provide the strongest
foundation library for the C++ language available, both in terms of platform
and standards support.
(0.1) criteria
Meritocracy: The STDCXX project should adhere to the same open, merit-based
community standards as other Apache projects, while also closely tracking
the relevant C++ standards.
Contributions and Core Developers: The initial code contribution will be a
fully-functional implementation of the ISO/EIC 14882 international standard,
including the Standard Template Library (STL), locales, and iostreams
libraries. As each platform's build system is packaged, additional ports
will be contributed.
As a side note, Rogue Wave Software intends to continue distributing the
library as part of its SourcePro/C++ product well into the future. This
means that significant effort will continue, especially in porting, and that
effort will directly benefit the open source community since even code
developed to meet commercial requirements will be contributed back into the
community.
Community: We estimate there are over 300,000 developers using the original
commercial code, and several have already expressed interest in becoming
contributors. This established, loose-knit group of users exposed to the
existing code base via OEM or as direct customers should ensure a vibrant
community once the open source project is started.
It is likely that the Apache C++ Standard Library would be a desirable
project to be used by other Apache projects as a foundation to ensure
excellent performance and easy portability across platforms. It can serve
many of the same goals as the existing APR project, but directly address the
needs of C++ developers. Those other projects will be encouraged to actively
participate in the library's community as well.
Apache Alignment: With the success of open/free software, C/C++ has seen a
bit of a revival as a popular language for its portability, power, and
performance. In fact, Apache has a considerable number of key projects based
on these languages. These projects and the entire developer community at
large would benefit from a C++ standard implementation from a trusted source
such as Apache. Without such a respected organization behind the project,
developers will have to constantly choose a less-portable solution, or a
solution more risky due to a small user community.
(0.2) known risks
Orphaned Products: One of the first questions when a commercial entity
offers code to the public is "will this code be abandoned?" To be clear,
Rogue Wave decided to initiate this process due to its own desire to
stabilize the C++ market, making the creation of higher-level products
easier and more portable. For a long time the contributed code has served
primarily as a foundation for other commercial products, not as revenue
producer on its own. Regardless of Apache's interested in the project, Rogue
Wave intends to open the C++ Standard Library to the public in the interest
of bolstering the C++ language and will continue to fully support and
enhance the project.
However, we fully expect a vibrant community to spring up around the project
as there are already many people involved in various C++ libraries,
compilers, and even consumer products that will benefit from the a true
standard implementation that is also free and commonly available.
Commercial Interest: The C++ Standard Library will continue to be shipped in
commercial products but the policies would be the same as apply for any
other company using the project. In short, that means we will continue to
contribute to evolve the project and add new platforms well into the future.
Inexperience with Open Source: Like many companies entering this arena, we
have limited experience working on open source projects. Our primary goal is
to foster an active community around the C++ Standard Library. Advice will
be welcomed, and significant resources will be dedicated to the project to
get it off the ground. However, we hope that our experience working in open
standards groups will aid in the transition to the open source community.
Initial Reliance on Salaried Workers: At the time of the initial proposal,
only one external developer has agreed to volunteer as a top-level
contributor. However, in discussions with members of the Apache community,
as well as partners and customers, it is clear that there is already
significant interest. Members of other Apache projects have indicated a
desire to participate and there is optimism that by the time the project is
set to begin more contributors from within Apache and the user community
will be enrolled.
Licensing, Patents, Miscellaneous Legal: After a thorough review, it was
concluded that there are two copyright owners for the contributed code,
Rogue Wave Software and Hewlett-Packard, both of whom will maintain those
rights but relinquish the code to the world under the Apache license. Rogue
Wave Software will simply retain copyright and adhere to the ASF license and
will sign the software grant form for the initial code. HP did significant
work on the standard many years ago and has sections of its original code
contributed to the community at large. The license grant given by HP should
conform to the rules of the ASF license, and is included below:
Copyright (c) 1994 Hewlett-Packard Company
Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and its
documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee, provided that
the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that copyright
notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation.
Hewlett-Packard Company makes no representations about the suitability of
this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is" without express or
implied warranty.
(1) scope of the project
The C++ Standard Library project would focus closely on tracking the
international standard governing the library, including the Standard
Template Library (STL) and all related libraries. The list of Apache
contributors should continue to include members of the standards committee,
as it does in this proposal. The Apache members will work with the standards
bodies to guide adherence, define future standards and extensions, and
represent the needs of the open source community.
The specific goals of the project are:
A complete standards-compliant implementation of the library
Support as many platforms and compiler versions as practical
Work with standards committees where appropriate
Provide the best performance possible on each supported platform
Respond to the needs of the C++ community at large
(2) identify the initial source for project code
A preview bundle of the contributed code may be found at the following link:
Rogue Wave Software's open source home page
(http://www.roguewave.com/opensource/ )
(2.1) a special note about the initial code contribution
The initial tarball made available on the web site will not be immediately
ready to include in a public CVS/SVN repository. The file set is quite
large, and has significant complexity, especially to support dozens of
platforms out of a single code base. The code and directory structure will
therefore need a thorough review to be sure they are efficiently packaged
for public, group development. We don't expect this to take long, but wanted
to set proper expectations.
The code drop is fully functional, and contains notes on how to get it to
compile on a subset of platforms. Once the review is complete and the
project is fully ramped up in Apache it should support at least forty (40)
platforms, using a variety of compilers.
The Apache license and bundling best practices will of course need to be
applied once the project is accepted.
(3) identify the ASF resources to be created
Rogue Wave will work with the ASF to determine which resources are
appropriate for the company to provide in addition to those detailed as the
responsibility of the ASF. Examples: newsgroups, knowledge bases, examples,
white papers.
(3.1) mailing list(s)
stdcxx-dev
stdcxx-user
stdcxx-commits
(3.2) SVN repositories
stdcxx
(3.3) Bugzilla
stdcxx
(4.0) identify the initial set of committers
This is a preliminary list that will be updated with volunteer members.
Tim Triemstra (TimT @ RogueWave dot-com)
Martin Sebor (Sebor @ RogueWave dot-com) - standards committee member
Lance Diduck (LDiduck @ bloomberg dot-net)
Ravi Palepu (Palepu @ RogueWave dot-com)
Amit Jindal (Jindal @ RogueWave dot-com)
Heidi Buelow (Buelow @ RogueWave dot-com)
John Hollis (Hollis @ RogueWave dot-com)
John Hinke (Hinke @ RogueWave dot-com)
(5) identify apache sponsoring individual
Justin Erenkrantz (justin @ erenkrantz dot-com)
(6) open issues for discussion
The code and structure for this project is already quite complex to support
localization and many platforms. While this has been managable within the
confines of Rogue Wave's internal development processes, issues such as
directory structure and build automation will be early priorities for the
project.
The initial contribution tarball does not include the test suite or the
product documentation. Those will come in conjunction with the Apache build
process as they currently depend on proprietary build infrastructure.
--------------------
Heidi Buelow
Rogue Wave, a division of Quovadx
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
Heidi Buelow wrote:
> Proposal for an Apache-run version of the C++ Standard Library
+1.
Sander
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>.
Big +1 (non-binding)
-Brian
On May 13, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Heidi Buelow wrote:
>
> Proposal for an Apache-run version of the C++ Standard Library
>
> Submission date: 12 May 2005, Tim Triemstra, Heidi Buelow (TimT @
> RogueWave
> dot-com, Buelow @ RogueWave dot-com)
>
> (0) rationale
>
> The goal of the Apache C++ Standard Library project is to provide a
> free
> implementation of the ISO/EIC 14882 international standard, often
> called the
> "STL" or "stdlib", which is consistent and portable across all major
> platforms and compilers. For the sake of this proposal, the project
> will be
> called "STDCXX" to blend in with other Apache names.
>
> Currently, C++ developers spend considerable effort porting code among
> platforms, as compiler vendors are focused on backward
> compatibility rather
> than cross-platform portability. There are other free
> implementations, but
> none have the quality, license flexibility, or platform support
> necessary to
> serve as a universal foundation for the C++ language.
>
> Rogue Wave Software will jump start this project by contributing the
> commercial C++ Standard Library it has been shipping for over a
> decade. This
> is a new, enhanced version of the OEM library provided by many
> vendors,
> including ARM, Sun Microsystems, HP and others. Unique attributes
> include:
>
>
> Complete compliance with the C++ standard
> Complete implementation of locale library (not OS dependant)
> User control over strict or loose standards compliance
> Largest test suite of any major implementation
> High performance
> Reference counted basic_string using atomic locking
> Thread-safety, including iostream and locale objects
> Fast compiles and extremely small executable file sizes
> Proven, portable, and fully tested on each platform
> Many platforms (Windows, Linux, Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, etc.)
> Platform-specific compilers (eg: MSVC, Sun Forte, HP aCC, GCC)
> Fully configurable and documented build control
> Ten years of deployment in the world's most critical systems
> Highly respected documentation, well maintained and up to date
>
> The day the project is launched, it will already provide the strongest
> foundation library for the C++ language available, both in terms of
> platform
> and standards support.
>
> (0.1) criteria
>
> Meritocracy: The STDCXX project should adhere to the same open,
> merit-based
> community standards as other Apache projects, while also closely
> tracking
> the relevant C++ standards.
>
> Contributions and Core Developers: The initial code contribution
> will be a
> fully-functional implementation of the ISO/EIC 14882 international
> standard,
> including the Standard Template Library (STL), locales, and iostreams
> libraries. As each platform's build system is packaged, additional
> ports
> will be contributed.
>
> As a side note, Rogue Wave Software intends to continue
> distributing the
> library as part of its SourcePro/C++ product well into the future.
> This
> means that significant effort will continue, especially in porting,
> and that
> effort will directly benefit the open source community since even code
> developed to meet commercial requirements will be contributed back
> into the
> community.
>
> Community: We estimate there are over 300,000 developers using the
> original
> commercial code, and several have already expressed interest in
> becoming
> contributors. This established, loose-knit group of users exposed
> to the
> existing code base via OEM or as direct customers should ensure a
> vibrant
> community once the open source project is started.
>
> It is likely that the Apache C++ Standard Library would be a desirable
> project to be used by other Apache projects as a foundation to ensure
> excellent performance and easy portability across platforms. It can
> serve
> many of the same goals as the existing APR project, but directly
> address the
> needs of C++ developers. Those other projects will be encouraged to
> actively
> participate in the library's community as well.
>
> Apache Alignment: With the success of open/free software, C/C++ has
> seen a
> bit of a revival as a popular language for its portability, power, and
> performance. In fact, Apache has a considerable number of key
> projects based
> on these languages. These projects and the entire developer
> community at
> large would benefit from a C++ standard implementation from a
> trusted source
> such as Apache. Without such a respected organization behind the
> project,
> developers will have to constantly choose a less-portable solution,
> or a
> solution more risky due to a small user community.
>
> (0.2) known risks
>
> Orphaned Products: One of the first questions when a commercial entity
> offers code to the public is "will this code be abandoned?" To be
> clear,
> Rogue Wave decided to initiate this process due to its own desire to
> stabilize the C++ market, making the creation of higher-level products
> easier and more portable. For a long time the contributed code has
> served
> primarily as a foundation for other commercial products, not as
> revenue
> producer on its own. Regardless of Apache's interested in the
> project, Rogue
> Wave intends to open the C++ Standard Library to the public in the
> interest
> of bolstering the C++ language and will continue to fully support and
> enhance the project.
>
> However, we fully expect a vibrant community to spring up around
> the project
> as there are already many people involved in various C++ libraries,
> compilers, and even consumer products that will benefit from the a
> true
> standard implementation that is also free and commonly available.
>
> Commercial Interest: The C++ Standard Library will continue to be
> shipped in
> commercial products but the policies would be the same as apply for
> any
> other company using the project. In short, that means we will
> continue to
> contribute to evolve the project and add new platforms well into
> the future.
>
>
> Inexperience with Open Source: Like many companies entering this
> arena, we
> have limited experience working on open source projects. Our
> primary goal is
> to foster an active community around the C++ Standard Library.
> Advice will
> be welcomed, and significant resources will be dedicated to the
> project to
> get it off the ground. However, we hope that our experience working
> in open
> standards groups will aid in the transition to the open source
> community.
>
> Initial Reliance on Salaried Workers: At the time of the initial
> proposal,
> only one external developer has agreed to volunteer as a top-level
> contributor. However, in discussions with members of the Apache
> community,
> as well as partners and customers, it is clear that there is already
> significant interest. Members of other Apache projects have
> indicated a
> desire to participate and there is optimism that by the time the
> project is
> set to begin more contributors from within Apache and the user
> community
> will be enrolled.
>
> Licensing, Patents, Miscellaneous Legal: After a thorough review,
> it was
> concluded that there are two copyright owners for the contributed
> code,
> Rogue Wave Software and Hewlett-Packard, both of whom will maintain
> those
> rights but relinquish the code to the world under the Apache
> license. Rogue
> Wave Software will simply retain copyright and adhere to the ASF
> license and
> will sign the software grant form for the initial code. HP did
> significant
> work on the standard many years ago and has sections of its
> original code
> contributed to the community at large. The license grant given by
> HP should
> conform to the rules of the ASF license, and is included below:
>
>
> Copyright (c) 1994 Hewlett-Packard Company
> Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software
> and its
> documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> provided that
> the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that
> copyright
> notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation.
> Hewlett-Packard Company makes no representations about the
> suitability of
> this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is" without
> express or
> implied warranty.
>
> (1) scope of the project
>
> The C++ Standard Library project would focus closely on tracking the
> international standard governing the library, including the Standard
> Template Library (STL) and all related libraries. The list of Apache
> contributors should continue to include members of the standards
> committee,
> as it does in this proposal. The Apache members will work with the
> standards
> bodies to guide adherence, define future standards and extensions, and
> represent the needs of the open source community.
>
> The specific goals of the project are:
>
> A complete standards-compliant implementation of the library
> Support as many platforms and compiler versions as practical
> Work with standards committees where appropriate
> Provide the best performance possible on each supported platform
> Respond to the needs of the C++ community at large
> (2) identify the initial source for project code
>
> A preview bundle of the contributed code may be found at the
> following link:
>
>
> Rogue Wave Software's open source home page
> (http://www.roguewave.com/opensource/ )
>
> (2.1) a special note about the initial code contribution
>
> The initial tarball made available on the web site will not be
> immediately
> ready to include in a public CVS/SVN repository. The file set is quite
> large, and has significant complexity, especially to support dozens of
> platforms out of a single code base. The code and directory
> structure will
> therefore need a thorough review to be sure they are efficiently
> packaged
> for public, group development. We don't expect this to take long,
> but wanted
> to set proper expectations.
>
> The code drop is fully functional, and contains notes on how to get
> it to
> compile on a subset of platforms. Once the review is complete and the
> project is fully ramped up in Apache it should support at least
> forty (40)
> platforms, using a variety of compilers.
>
> The Apache license and bundling best practices will of course need
> to be
> applied once the project is accepted.
>
> (3) identify the ASF resources to be created
>
> Rogue Wave will work with the ASF to determine which resources are
> appropriate for the company to provide in addition to those
> detailed as the
> responsibility of the ASF. Examples: newsgroups, knowledge bases,
> examples,
> white papers.
>
> (3.1) mailing list(s)
>
> stdcxx-dev
> stdcxx-user
> stdcxx-commits
>
> (3.2) SVN repositories
>
> stdcxx
>
> (3.3) Bugzilla
>
> stdcxx
>
> (4.0) identify the initial set of committers
>
> This is a preliminary list that will be updated with volunteer
> members.
>
> Tim Triemstra (TimT @ RogueWave dot-com)
> Martin Sebor (Sebor @ RogueWave dot-com) - standards committee member
> Lance Diduck (LDiduck @ bloomberg dot-net)
> Ravi Palepu (Palepu @ RogueWave dot-com)
> Amit Jindal (Jindal @ RogueWave dot-com)
> Heidi Buelow (Buelow @ RogueWave dot-com)
> John Hollis (Hollis @ RogueWave dot-com)
> John Hinke (Hinke @ RogueWave dot-com)
>
> (5) identify apache sponsoring individual
>
> Justin Erenkrantz (justin @ erenkrantz dot-com)
> (6) open issues for discussion
>
> The code and structure for this project is already quite complex to
> support
> localization and many platforms. While this has been managable
> within the
> confines of Rogue Wave's internal development processes, issues
> such as
> directory structure and build automation will be early priorities
> for the
> project.
>
> The initial contribution tarball does not include the test suite or
> the
> product documentation. Those will come in conjunction with the
> Apache build
> process as they currently depend on proprietary build infrastructure.
>
>
> --------------------
> Heidi Buelow
> Rogue Wave, a division of Quovadx
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
>
>
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
At 10:10 PM 6/1/2005, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 09:55:01PM -0500, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>> I'm willing to serve as either mentor or ppmc member, as you will.
>> +1 to STDCXX -entering- incubation.
>
>Glad to hear it. You can help me and Ben help them. =)
>
>It's been pointed out that mentors should be on the Incubator PMC. So, if
>you want to do this, we need to go through the process of adding you to the
>PMC. (If this is an issue, please let me know; otherwise, I'll start that
>process in the next day or so.)
Feel free. I've gone through this grind once on the other end :)
>> One point, is STDCXX a Mark of Rouge Waves', or is it your newly
>> invented name? We avoid adopting other marks (we have, but with
>> lots of extra, ugly paperwork.) Before the project is chartered
>> I'd like to see it incubated under its future name.
>
>AFAIK, this was a new working name that Rogue Wave came up with just for the
>purposes of Incubation. I believe that once incubation is started, there will
>be a discussion about picking a more permanent name. However, that discussion
>is best held off until all the mailing lists are set up. -- justin
Coolness.
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 09:55:01PM -0500, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> I'm willing to serve as either mentor or ppmc member, as you will.
> +1 to STDCXX -entering- incubation.
Glad to hear it. You can help me and Ben help them. =)
It's been pointed out that mentors should be on the Incubator PMC. So, if
you want to do this, we need to go through the process of adding you to the
PMC. (If this is an issue, please let me know; otherwise, I'll start that
process in the next day or so.)
> One point, is STDCXX a Mark of Rouge Waves', or is it your newly
> invented name? We avoid adopting other marks (we have, but with
> lots of extra, ugly paperwork.) Before the project is chartered
> I'd like to see it incubated under its future name.
AFAIK, this was a new working name that Rogue Wave came up with just for the
purposes of Incubation. I believe that once incubation is started, there will
be a discussion about picking a more permanent name. However, that discussion
is best held off until all the mailing lists are set up. -- justin
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
At 06:45 PM 6/1/2005, Martin Sebor wrote:
>William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>>
>>Can you give us a sense of the 'currently' supported platforms
>>and compilers?
>
>The C++ Standard Library project has been ported to the following
>compilers and operating systems:[...]
That said, I'm suitably impressed with how thorough the incoming
code is and how well it's been considered.
Obviously endianess, wordsize, alignment and thousands of other
little nits hamper such efforts. Kudos on your persistance.
I'm willing to serve as either mentor or ppmc member, as you will.
+1 to STDCXX -entering- incubation.
One point, is STDCXX a Mark of Rouge Waves', or is it your newly
invented name? We avoid adopting other marks (we have, but with
lots of extra, ugly paperwork.) Before the project is chartered
I'd like to see it incubated under its future name.
Bill
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Martin Sebor <se...@roguewave.com>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> At 03:43 PM 6/1/2005, Martin Sebor wrote:
>
>
>>GNU libstdc++ is a fine implementation of the standard but its
>>big limitation is its dependency on gcc. What differentiates
>>our implementation is its portability to all the other compilers
>>besides gcc, which on most platforms other than Linux is still
>>an inferior choice when compared to the native compiler.
>
>
> Can you give us a sense of the 'currently' supported platforms
> and compilers? (Obviously, with this mission, the breadth of
> these would grow with time as an ASF project.)
The C++ Standard Library project has been ported to the following
compilers and operating systems:
Como 4.2.4 through 4.3.3 on Solaris 7 through 9 (SPARC)
Compaq C++ 6.3 through 6.5 on Tru64 UNIX (Alpha)
EDG eccp 2.45.2 through 3.5 on Solaris 7 through 9 (SPARC) and
Linux (x86)
gcc 2.95.2 through 3.4.3 on HP-UX, Linux (x86, x86_64, IA64),
Solaris 7 through 10 (x86, SPARC), as well as Cygwin and Interix
HP aCC 3.33 through 3.63 on HP-UX 11.00 through 11.23 (PA-RISC)
HP aCC 5.50 through 6.01 on HP-UX 11.22 through 11.23 (IPF)
IBM VisualAge C++ 5.0 through 7.0 on AIX and Linux (PowerPC)
Intel C++ 7.0 through 8.1 on Linux and Windows (x86, x86_64, IA64)
MIPSpro 7.3 through 7.4 on IRIX64 (MIPS)
MSVC 6.0 through 7.1 on Windows (x86, x86_64, IA64)
SunPro 5.3 through 5.7 on Solaris 6 through 10 (x86, x86_64, SPARC)
Ports to other platforms such MVS, OS/390, Siemens Reliant/CDS++,
VMS, and z/OS have also been done, although they are not being
maintained on the development branch.
The tarball that's on our Web page(*) is a snapshot of the
development branch tested at the time on most (although not
all) of the platforms above.
(*) http://www.roguewave.com/opensource/
Martin
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
At 03:43 PM 6/1/2005, Martin Sebor wrote:
>GNU libstdc++ is a fine implementation of the standard but its
>big limitation is its dependency on gcc. What differentiates
>our implementation is its portability to all the other compilers
>besides gcc, which on most platforms other than Linux is still
>an inferior choice when compared to the native compiler.
Can you give us a sense of the 'currently' supported platforms
and compilers? (Obviously, with this mission, the breadth of
these would grow with time as an ASF project.)
Bill
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Martin Sebor <se...@roguewave.com>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
...
> There's at least one open implementation out there now: the GNU STL.
> What differentiates the RW codebase from the GNU one? If there are
> bugs or performance, uh, deficiencies in the GNU one, why not submit
> the changes to the gcc crowd?
GNU libstdc++ is a fine implementation of the standard but its
big limitation is its dependency on gcc. What differentiates
our implementation is its portability to all the other compilers
besides gcc, which on most platforms other than Linux is still
an inferior choice when compared to the native compiler.
Martin
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RE: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Technical issues having been commented on ...
> in light of http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/libstdc++/2005-05/msg00134.html
> and its complete thread.
The claims that the ASF has an NIH issue are contradicted by the existance
of the Incubator. These aren't projects invented here. They are projects
being brought here by their "inventors" because this is where they want to
build community, and because the AL is the license that they want to use.
And it really shouldn't be surprising that as Open Source penetrates further
into the traditional commercial software community, that they choose a
vendor friendly partner.
> I'd still like to know why this came out,
Rogue Wave wanted to, and people here liked the idea enough to sponsor it?
> why it came here,
At a guess, because of our license and processes. This is born out in part
by the proposal:
There are other free implementations, but none have the
quality, license flexibility, or platform support
necessary to serve as a universal foundation for [C++]
> and why some other people here like it.
What's not to like, if you're a C++ programmer?
--- Noel
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
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Heidi Buelow wrote:
>
> Proposal for an Apache-run version of the C++ Standard Library
>
> Submission date: 12 May 2005, Tim Triemstra, Heidi Buelow (TimT @ RogueWave
> dot-com, Buelow @ RogueWave dot-com)
>
> (0) rationale
>
> The goal of the Apache C++ Standard Library project is to provide a free
> implementation of the ISO/EIC 14882 international standard, often called the
> "STL" or "stdlib", which is consistent and portable across all major
> platforms and compilers. For the sake of this proposal, the project will be
> called "STDCXX" to blend in with other Apache names.
>
> Currently, C++ developers spend considerable effort porting code among
> platforms, as compiler vendors are focused on backward compatibility rather
> than cross-platform portability. There are other free implementations, but
> none have the quality, license flexibility, or platform support necessary to
> serve as a universal foundation for the C++ language.
Not to rain on anyone's parade, or to cast doubts in any direction, but
I'm curious about motivations.
In short, the proposal spells out 'what' -- but I'm curious about 'why.'
There's at least one open implementation out there now: the GNU STL.
What differentiates the RW codebase from the GNU one? If there are
bugs or performance, uh, deficiencies in the GNU one, why not submit
the changes to the gcc crowd?
And on the other side, what's the 'why' for the people who have expressed
+1 on this proposal? I mean no criticism; I'm just curious why they
think it would be good to have another open C++ library, and have it
at Apache.
Particularly in light of http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/libstdc++/2005-05/msg00134.html
and its complete thread.
I'm not against this at all; in fact, I'm rather in favour of providing
open alternatives for just about anything. But I'd still like to know
why this came out, why it came here, and why some other people here like it.
:-)
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 05:02:07PM -0700, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> I saw the HP licensing note below, which seems fine; but, if the
> library was provided by other vendors, can you clarify the state of
> any other IP claims on the initial contribution?
I've been informed that Rogue Wave and HP are the only remaining copyright
holders. HP has agreed to the legal notice that was listed in the proposal.
> When you say "the code will be contributed back into the community",
> do you mean that Rogue Wave will work on in-house ports and
> occasionally drop new versions over the top of what happens to be in
> Apache at the time, or that Rogue Wave will be iteratively improving
> the code base/ports in collaboration with other committers on the
> project? Of course, I'm hoping you mean the latter; but, please
> clarify. There's nothing wrong with additional future contributions
> (in fact, that's goodness); but periodic replacements of a bunch of
> existing code would obviously be disruptive to the other committers.
My understanding is that future development will be centered in the Apache
codebase.
> Hopefully, you'll find some more interest from other folks reading
> this thread.
Yup, that's the idea. =)
> This should be fine, as long as this notice can be placed in the
> NOTICE and/or LICENSE file of any distribution, and not required to be
> at the top of every source file.
I'm not aware what HP's specific terms were. However, I have been told that
it only applies to a few files in the codebase and that has HP has requested
that the notices be preserved in the file themselves.
My understanding is that a copyright notice in a file itself is not a concern
for the ASF. I know that httpd and APR have files that bear similar notices
for files originating under other copyright but bearing a suitable license
(i.e. RSA copyright with BSD style license).
> I certainly understand that it takes time once a project is accepted
> to align your company's logistics with the Apache infrastructure, but
> can you give us an idea of a) roughly how long are you expecting, and
> b) will the eventual contribution be significantly different than what
> you have posted now?
My understanding is that the initial code drop will be imported as soon as the
Subversion directories are available (which is dependent upon PMC approval
first). Any further reorganization can then occur in Subversion.
> > (5) identify apache sponsoring individual
> >
> > Justin Erenkrantz (justin @ erenkrantz dot-com)
>
> That says a lot! (in a good way ;-)
Ha! =) -- justin
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com>.
Heidi,
This looks great. A few notes/questions inline below.
Cliff
On 5/13/05, Heidi Buelow <he...@roguewave.com> wrote:
>
> Proposal for an Apache-run version of the C++ Standard Library
<snip/>
> Rogue Wave Software will jump start this project by contributing the
> commercial C++ Standard Library it has been shipping for over a decade. This
> is a new, enhanced version of the OEM library provided by many vendors,
> including ARM, Sun Microsystems, HP and others.
I saw the HP licensing note below, which seems fine; but, if the
library was provided by other vendors, can you clarify the state of
any other IP claims on the initial contribution?
> As a side note, Rogue Wave Software intends to continue distributing the
> library as part of its SourcePro/C++ product well into the future. This
> means that significant effort will continue, especially in porting, and that
> effort will directly benefit the open source community since even code
> developed to meet commercial requirements will be contributed back into the
> community.
When you say "the code will be contributed back into the community",
do you mean that Rogue Wave will work on in-house ports and
occasionally drop new versions over the top of what happens to be in
Apache at the time, or that Rogue Wave will be iteratively improving
the code base/ports in collaboration with other committers on the
project? Of course, I'm hoping you mean the latter; but, please
clarify. There's nothing wrong with additional future contributions
(in fact, that's goodness); but periodic replacements of a bunch of
existing code would obviously be disruptive to the other committers.
> Initial Reliance on Salaried Workers: At the time of the initial proposal,
> only one external developer has agreed to volunteer as a top-level
> contributor. However, in discussions with members of the Apache community,
> as well as partners and customers, it is clear that there is already
> significant interest. Members of other Apache projects have indicated a
> desire to participate and there is optimism that by the time the project is
> set to begin more contributors from within Apache and the user community
> will be enrolled.
Hopefully, you'll find some more interest from other folks reading
this thread.
> The license grant given by HP should
> conform to the rules of the ASF license, and is included below:
>
> Copyright (c) 1994 Hewlett-Packard Company
> Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and its
> documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee, provided that
> the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that both that copyright
> notice and this permission notice appear in supporting documentation.
> Hewlett-Packard Company makes no representations about the suitability of
> this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is" without express or
> implied warranty.
This should be fine, as long as this notice can be placed in the
NOTICE and/or LICENSE file of any distribution, and not required to be
at the top of every source file.
> The initial tarball made available on the web site will not be immediately
> ready to include in a public CVS/SVN repository. The file set is quite
> large, and has significant complexity, especially to support dozens of
> platforms out of a single code base. The code and directory structure will
> therefore need a thorough review to be sure they are efficiently packaged
> for public, group development. We don't expect this to take long, but wanted
> to set proper expectations.
I certainly understand that it takes time once a project is accepted
to align your company's logistics with the Apache infrastructure, but
can you give us an idea of a) roughly how long are you expecting, and
b) will the eventual contribution be significantly different than what
you have posted now?
> (3.3) Bugzilla
Sure you don't want to use Jira?
> (5) identify apache sponsoring individual
>
> Justin Erenkrantz (justin @ erenkrantz dot-com)
That says a lot! (in a good way ;-)
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 04:27:28PM -0500, Heidi Buelow wrote:
>
> Proposal for an Apache-run version of the C++ Standard Library
+1. -- justin
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Fri, May 13, 2005 at 04:27:28PM -0500, Heidi Buelow wrote:
> Proposal for an Apache-run version of the C++ Standard Library
One other comment that I should make now:
The APR PMC was privately approached about sponsoring this proposal. The
PMC's consensus was that there was not sufficient overlap between APR and this
proposal to warrant APR being a 'sponsoring PMC' for this proposal and to
house this as a sub-project within APR. Therefore, the intent is for this
project to evolve as an independent PMC/TLP.
Thanks! -- justin
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
>
> On May 13, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Heidi Buelow wrote:
>
>> Proposal for an Apache-run version of the C++ Standard Library
>
+1
The proposal says that this library has a "complete locale
implementation". I'm wondering about the possibilities for code reuse
when/if we start on a second generation of apr-iconv.
-- Brane
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On May 13, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Heidi Buelow wrote:
>
> Proposal for an Apache-run version of the C++ Standard Library
>
+0
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:38 PM +0200 Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Justin Erenkrantz (justin @ erenkrantz dot-com)
>>
>>
>> Which is why having another mentor or two might be a good idea? We still
>> haven't ironed out the justin-cloning proces AFAICT :-)
>
>
> I volunteered initially to start the process and have been in contact
> with the RogueWave folks during the drafting of this proposal. If any
> other member would like to now volunteer to assist me in this mentoring
> process going forward, it'd certainly be most appreciated! -- justin
I must be nuts, but I volunteer to mentor. In my copious free time.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:38 PM +0200 Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
>> Justin Erenkrantz (justin @ erenkrantz dot-com)
>
> Which is why having another mentor or two might be a good idea? We still
> haven't ironed out the justin-cloning proces AFAICT :-)
I volunteered initially to start the process and have been in contact with the
RogueWave folks during the drafting of this proposal. If any other member
would like to now volunteer to assist me in this mentoring process going
forward, it'd certainly be most appreciated! -- justin
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Re: Proposal for STDCXX
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On 13-05-2005 23:27, "Heidi Buelow" <he...@roguewave.com> wrote:
> Proposal for an Apache-run version of the C++ Standard Library
Kewl. Seems like a big undertaking :-)
(...)
> (5) identify apache sponsoring individual
>
> Justin Erenkrantz (justin @ erenkrantz dot-com)
Which is why having another mentor or two might be a good idea? We still
haven't ironed out the justin-cloning proces AFAICT :-)
- Leo
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