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Posted to doc@openoffice.apache.org by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net> on 2016/07/23 03:35:30 UTC
Is it time to shut down this effort?
My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for almost
4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
opinions of others though.
Keith
Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> On 23/07/2016 Keith N. McKenna wrote:
>> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
>> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for almost
>> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
>> opinions of others though.
>
> (I know this conversation moved to the dev list, but I'm answering here
> since it fits here)
>
> There is some significant work done and we shouldn't throw it away.
> Everything is on the wiki, so we could just keep what we have and
> dispose of the process.
>
[knmc]
It makes no sense to throw away the work that is already done and really
there has not been a process for quite some time.
> I mean: we can link to the (unfinished) new documentation from the wiki
> home page, design some template saying "This page is part of an
> unfinished documentation effort, please e-mail [this list] if you'd like
> to contribute" and put it on all pages that are still unfinished or just
> a title.
>
> Then the risk is to lose a bit of oversight and consistency, but at
> least we show what we have and we give people the opportunity to help if
> the wish.
>
[knmc]
The problem I see with that is that without a minimal amount of
consistency it looks very sloppy and does not present a good image for
the project as a whole and the ASF.
> By the way, thanks Keith for your documentation efforts so far. And if I
> were you, I would simply relax the process and be available for creating
> accounts for new volunteers and give advice when needed. This way we
> don't have to close or undo anything.
>
[knmc]
I am not planning on going anywhere and will still monitor this list and
others to be a resource and to do account creation for the m-wiki and
white-listing for the c-wiki.
Regards
Keith
> Regards,
> Andrea.
RE: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
+1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 14:58
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>
> On 23/07/2016 Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> > My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
> > unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for
> almost
> > 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
> > opinions of others though.
>
> (I know this conversation moved to the dev list, but I'm answering here
> since it fits here)
>
> There is some significant work done and we shouldn't throw it away.
> Everything is on the wiki, so we could just keep what we have and
> dispose of the process.
>
> I mean: we can link to the (unfinished) new documentation from the wiki
> home page, design some template saying "This page is part of an
> unfinished documentation effort, please e-mail [this list] if you'd like
> to contribute" and put it on all pages that are still unfinished or just
> a title.
>
> Then the risk is to lose a bit of oversight and consistency, but at
> least we show what we have and we give people the opportunity to help if
> the wish.
>
> By the way, thanks Keith for your documentation efforts so far. And if I
> were you, I would simply relax the process and be available for creating
> accounts for new volunteers and give advice when needed. This way we
> don't have to close or undo anything.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
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Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 23/07/2016 Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for almost
> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
> opinions of others though.
(I know this conversation moved to the dev list, but I'm answering here
since it fits here)
There is some significant work done and we shouldn't throw it away.
Everything is on the wiki, so we could just keep what we have and
dispose of the process.
I mean: we can link to the (unfinished) new documentation from the wiki
home page, design some template saying "This page is part of an
unfinished documentation effort, please e-mail [this list] if you'd like
to contribute" and put it on all pages that are still unfinished or just
a title.
Then the risk is to lose a bit of oversight and consistency, but at
least we show what we have and we give people the opportunity to help if
the wish.
By the way, thanks Keith for your documentation efforts so far. And if I
were you, I would simply relax the process and be available for creating
accounts for new volunteers and give advice when needed. This way we
don't have to close or undo anything.
Regards,
Andrea.
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RE: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
[BCC dev@ (really, this time)]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:28
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>
> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > [BCC dev@]
> >
> > Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
> >
> > The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the
> MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-source
> project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss"
> feature).
> >
> > If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages
> and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.
> >
> > - Dennis
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
> >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
> >> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> >> Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
> >>
> >> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
> >> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for
> almost
> >> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
> >> opinions of others though.
> >>
> >> Keith
> >>
> Dennis;
>
> This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development of
> documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
> and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
> this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
> documentation.
>
> My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not doing
> what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
> different form.
>
> I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
> message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.
[orcmid]
I am still unclear on what it means to "shut down this effort."
Close the doc@ list?
What action do you have in mind that would result in a shut down?
Also, perhaps a broader request for assistance in documentation is called for. This might go with the adjustments just made to the download page. And there are lists (and the Community Forum) where power users might be encouraged to contribute to documentation on the wiki.
The nice thing about the documentation is that there is always room for additions and improvements. Whatever there is at the moment is what there is. Positive effort is not wasted.
>
> Regards
> Keith
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RE: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
[BCC dev@ (really, this time)]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:28
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>
> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > [BCC dev@]
> >
> > Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
> >
> > The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the
> MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-source
> project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss"
> feature).
> >
> > If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages
> and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.
> >
> > - Dennis
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
> >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
> >> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> >> Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
> >>
> >> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
> >> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for
> almost
> >> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
> >> opinions of others though.
> >>
> >> Keith
> >>
> Dennis;
>
> This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development of
> documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
> and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
> this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
> documentation.
>
> My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not doing
> what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
> different form.
>
> I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
> message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.
[orcmid]
I am still unclear on what it means to "shut down this effort."
Close the doc@ list?
What action do you have in mind that would result in a shut down?
Also, perhaps a broader request for assistance in documentation is called for. This might go with the adjustments just made to the download page. And there are lists (and the Community Forum) where power users might be encouraged to contribute to documentation on the wiki.
The nice thing about the documentation is that there is always room for additions and improvements. Whatever there is at the moment is what there is. Positive effort is not wasted.
>
> Regards
> Keith
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RE: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 18:24
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>
> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > [BCC dev@ (really, this time)]
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
> >> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:28
> >> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> >> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
> >>
> >> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> >>> [BCC dev@]
> >>>
> >>> Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
> >>>
> >>> The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the
> >> MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-
> source
> >> project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss"
> >> feature).
> >>>
> >>> If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages
> >> and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.
> >>>
> >>> - Dennis
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
> >>>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
> >>>> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> >>>> Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
> >>>>
> >>>> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
> >>>> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for
> >> almost
> >>>> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear
> the
> >>>> opinions of others though.
> >>>>
> >>>> Keith
> >>>>
> >> Dennis;
> >>
> >> This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development
> of
> >> documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
> >> and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
> >> this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
> >> documentation.
> >>
> >> My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not
> doing
> >> what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
> >> different form.
> >>
> >> I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
> >> message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.
> > [orcmid]
> >
> > I am still unclear on what it means to "shut down this effort."
> >
> > Close the doc@ list?
> >
> > What action do you have in mind that would result in a shut down?
> >
> > Also, perhaps a broader request for assistance in documentation is
> called for. This might go with the adjustments just made to the
> download page. And there are lists (and the Community Forum) where
> power users might be encouraged to contribute to documentation on the
> wiki.
> >
> > The nice thing about the documentation is that there is always room
> for additions and improvements. Whatever there is at the moment is what
> there is. Positive effort is not wasted.
> >
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Keith
> Dennis;
> I specifically did not bring this to the dev list because I wanted to
> illicit responses from the members of the documentation list as to their
> thoughts before I came to the dev list with a concrete proposal. Since
> you insist on bringing it here I will bow to your insistence and express
> my thoughts her.
[orcmid]
Keith, I think there is a misunderstanding about the purpose of the dev@ list. It is the place to work something out in the community that involves all of the stakeholders.
The reason for my BCC (and not CC: cross-posting) was so the conversation could remain on doc@ but dev@ could participate, appreciating that there are participants on doc@ that are not on dev@.
So I failed at that, since the conversation has moved completely to dev@. It's a weekend, so we perhaps should not make too much about the fact of complete silence on doc@ so far [;<). As you've seen already, there is discussion energy on dev@. That there is a diversity of opinion and there are differences is not a bad thing. And remember, "don't feed the trolls."
It may well be that the doc@ list is not needed. Perhaps the way for writers to communicate is in the wiki structure itself. We have the community wiki and we have the MediaWiki as avenues for that although I am uncertain how comfortable technical writers are with a wiki as a tumultuous open-source writing experience with distributed participants.
- Dennis
>
> It is very simple. The documentation list serves no purpose and should
> be closed down. We have tried numerous times to generate more interest
> in gaining volunteers to help with documentation to no avail. Your board
> reports have succinctly stated that the "documentation effort" is
> stalled. Trying to get more people is doomed to failure unless we can
> attract experienced tech writers that are willing to take the time to
> mentor new volunteers and to overhaul the wiki editing policy and the
> style guide to reflect current conditions and practices in the
> discipline. This has not happened and I do not see it happening in the
> future.
>
> It is time that we realize that writing documentation is a unique skill
> set and requires as much coaching and mentoring of new volunteers as
> does writing code. We need up to date policies and procedures on how to
> edit the wiki pages and we desperately need a coherent style guide on
> what documentation looks like. To the best of my knowledge we do not
> have anyone with the requisite skills actively engaged in the project
> that can provide those.
[orcmid]
I agree that a technical editor with experience making these kinds of arrangements would be of great assistance.
>
> Regards
> Keith
>
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Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by Fernando Cassia <fc...@gmail.com>.
On 7/23/16, Keith N. McKenna <ke...@comcast.net> wrote:
> It can't hurt, but I don't see it having any more success than other
> efforts that have been made over the last 4 - 5 years.
>
> Keith
Let's shut down the project altogether, because, why bother. It's
doomed to failure. That's what you're saying.
Why don't you go with LO and attempt to shut down some lists over there?
FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
- George Orwell
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Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
Fernando Cassia wrote:
> On 7/23/16, Keith N. McKenna <ke...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> It can't hurt, but I don't see it having any more success than other
>> efforts that have been made over the last 4 - 5 years.
>>
>> Keith
>
> Let's shut down the project altogether, because, why bother. It's
> doomed to failure. That's what you're saying.
>
> Why don't you go with LO and attempt to shut down some lists over there?
>
> FC
>
Fernando;
I have been in the trenches of the documentation effort since its
beginning. I have seen nothing that you have done to try to move it
forward. So unless you have concrete to add to the discussion I would
suggest that you go join LO and aggravate them for a while. Or better
yet if you have the necessary skills to help move the documentation
effort forward or to mentor volunteers than do so rather than kibitz
from the sidelines with no constructive effort.
KNMc
Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> Should we add "Experienced lead technical writers" to the list for the
> download web page changes?
>
> On 7/23/2016 6:23 PM, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
>> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>> [BCC dev@ (really, this time)]
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:28
>>>> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>>>>
>>>> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>>>> [BCC dev@]
>>>>>
>>>>> Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
>>>>>
>>>>> The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the
>>>> MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an
>>>> open-source
>>>> project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss"
>>>> feature).
>>>>>
>>>>> If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages
>>>> and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Dennis
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
>>>>>> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
>>>>>> Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
>>>>>> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for
>>>> almost
>>>>>> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
>>>>>> opinions of others though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Keith
>>>>>>
>>>> Dennis;
>>>>
>>>> This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development of
>>>> documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
>>>> and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
>>>> this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
>>>> documentation.
>>>>
>>>> My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not
>>>> doing
>>>> what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
>>>> different form.
>>>>
>>>> I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
>>>> message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.
>>> [orcmid]
>>>
>>> I am still unclear on what it means to "shut down this effort."
>>>
>>> Close the doc@ list?
>>>
>>> What action do you have in mind that would result in a shut down?
>>>
>>> Also, perhaps a broader request for assistance in documentation is
>>> called for. This might go with the adjustments just made to the
>>> download page. And there are lists (and the Community Forum) where
>>> power users might be encouraged to contribute to documentation on the
>>> wiki.
>>>
>>> The nice thing about the documentation is that there is always room
>>> for additions and improvements. Whatever there is at the moment is
>>> what there is. Positive effort is not wasted.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Keith
>> Dennis;
>> I specifically did not bring this to the dev list because I wanted to
>> illicit responses from the members of the documentation list as to their
>> thoughts before I came to the dev list with a concrete proposal. Since
>> you insist on bringing it here I will bow to your insistence and express
>> my thoughts her.
>>
>> It is very simple. The documentation list serves no purpose and should
>> be closed down. We have tried numerous times to generate more interest
>> in gaining volunteers to help with documentation to no avail. Your board
>> reports have succinctly stated that the "documentation effort" is
>> stalled. Trying to get more people is doomed to failure unless we can
>> attract experienced tech writers that are willing to take the time to
>> mentor new volunteers and to overhaul the wiki editing policy and the
>> style guide to reflect current conditions and practices in the
>> discipline. This has not happened and I do not see it happening in the
>> future.
>>
>> It is time that we realize that writing documentation is a unique skill
>> set and requires as much coaching and mentoring of new volunteers as
>> does writing code. We need up to date policies and procedures on how to
>> edit the wiki pages and we desperately need a coherent style guide on
>> what documentation looks like. To the best of my knowledge we do not
>> have anyone with the requisite skills actively engaged in the project
>> that can provide those.
>>
>> Regards
>> Keith
>>
>>
Pat;
It can't hurt, but I don't see it having any more success than other
efforts that have been made over the last 4 - 5 years.
Keith
Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
Should we add "Experienced lead technical writers" to the list for the
download web page changes?
On 7/23/2016 6:23 PM, Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>> [BCC dev@ (really, this time)]
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:28
>>> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>>>
>>> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>>> [BCC dev@]
>>>>
>>>> Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
>>>>
>>>> The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the
>>> MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-source
>>> project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss"
>>> feature).
>>>>
>>>> If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages
>>> and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.
>>>>
>>>> - Dennis
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
>>>>> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
>>>>> Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>>>>>
>>>>> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
>>>>> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for
>>> almost
>>>>> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
>>>>> opinions of others though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Keith
>>>>>
>>> Dennis;
>>>
>>> This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development of
>>> documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
>>> and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
>>> this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
>>> documentation.
>>>
>>> My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not doing
>>> what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
>>> different form.
>>>
>>> I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
>>> message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.
>> [orcmid]
>>
>> I am still unclear on what it means to "shut down this effort."
>>
>> Close the doc@ list?
>>
>> What action do you have in mind that would result in a shut down?
>>
>> Also, perhaps a broader request for assistance in documentation is called for. This might go with the adjustments just made to the download page. And there are lists (and the Community Forum) where power users might be encouraged to contribute to documentation on the wiki.
>>
>> The nice thing about the documentation is that there is always room for additions and improvements. Whatever there is at the moment is what there is. Positive effort is not wasted.
>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Keith
> Dennis;
> I specifically did not bring this to the dev list because I wanted to
> illicit responses from the members of the documentation list as to their
> thoughts before I came to the dev list with a concrete proposal. Since
> you insist on bringing it here I will bow to your insistence and express
> my thoughts her.
>
> It is very simple. The documentation list serves no purpose and should
> be closed down. We have tried numerous times to generate more interest
> in gaining volunteers to help with documentation to no avail. Your board
> reports have succinctly stated that the "documentation effort" is
> stalled. Trying to get more people is doomed to failure unless we can
> attract experienced tech writers that are willing to take the time to
> mentor new volunteers and to overhaul the wiki editing policy and the
> style guide to reflect current conditions and practices in the
> discipline. This has not happened and I do not see it happening in the
> future.
>
> It is time that we realize that writing documentation is a unique skill
> set and requires as much coaching and mentoring of new volunteers as
> does writing code. We need up to date policies and procedures on how to
> edit the wiki pages and we desperately need a coherent style guide on
> what documentation looks like. To the best of my knowledge we do not
> have anyone with the requisite skills actively engaged in the project
> that can provide those.
>
> Regards
> Keith
>
>
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Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> [BCC dev@ (really, this time)]
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
>> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:28
>> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>>
>> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>> [BCC dev@]
>>>
>>> Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
>>>
>>> The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the
>> MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-source
>> project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss"
>> feature).
>>>
>>> If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages
>> and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.
>>>
>>> - Dennis
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
>>>> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>>>>
>>>> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
>>>> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for
>> almost
>>>> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
>>>> opinions of others though.
>>>>
>>>> Keith
>>>>
>> Dennis;
>>
>> This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development of
>> documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
>> and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
>> this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
>> documentation.
>>
>> My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not doing
>> what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
>> different form.
>>
>> I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
>> message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.
> [orcmid]
>
> I am still unclear on what it means to "shut down this effort."
>
> Close the doc@ list?
>
> What action do you have in mind that would result in a shut down?
>
> Also, perhaps a broader request for assistance in documentation is called for. This might go with the adjustments just made to the download page. And there are lists (and the Community Forum) where power users might be encouraged to contribute to documentation on the wiki.
>
> The nice thing about the documentation is that there is always room for additions and improvements. Whatever there is at the moment is what there is. Positive effort is not wasted.
>
>>
>> Regards
>> Keith
Dennis;
I specifically did not bring this to the dev list because I wanted to
illicit responses from the members of the documentation list as to their
thoughts before I came to the dev list with a concrete proposal. Since
you insist on bringing it here I will bow to your insistence and express
my thoughts her.
It is very simple. The documentation list serves no purpose and should
be closed down. We have tried numerous times to generate more interest
in gaining volunteers to help with documentation to no avail. Your board
reports have succinctly stated that the "documentation effort" is
stalled. Trying to get more people is doomed to failure unless we can
attract experienced tech writers that are willing to take the time to
mentor new volunteers and to overhaul the wiki editing policy and the
style guide to reflect current conditions and practices in the
discipline. This has not happened and I do not see it happening in the
future.
It is time that we realize that writing documentation is a unique skill
set and requires as much coaching and mentoring of new volunteers as
does writing code. We need up to date policies and procedures on how to
edit the wiki pages and we desperately need a coherent style guide on
what documentation looks like. To the best of my knowledge we do not
have anyone with the requisite skills actively engaged in the project
that can provide those.
Regards
Keith
Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> [BCC dev@]
>
> Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
>
> The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-source project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss" feature).
>
> If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.
>
> - Dennis
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
>> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>>
>> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
>> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for almost
>> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
>> opinions of others though.
>>
>> Keith
>>
Dennis;
This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development of
documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
documentation.
My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not doing
what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
different form.
I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.
Regards
Keith
RE: Is it time to shut down this effort?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
[BCC dev@]
Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the MediaWiki. This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-source project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss" feature).
If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.
- Dennis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mckenna@comcast.net]
> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
>
> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for almost
> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
> opinions of others though.
>
> Keith
>
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