Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 4:32 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...we should be proactive about our trademark....

Indeed. The simplest might be to create a FAQ about how people can use
the Apache NetBeans name in specific cases, like creating their own
installer or extension or creating an app built on NetBeans.

-Bertrand

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

> I am worried that if nothing like that is allowed, there will never be a
bundle of a JDK with "NetBeans" (as Apache cannot do it and others could
not as well).

I think per Apache policy it's not possible. But the Apache folks are
quite flexible, so perhaps Oracle (or Amazon or Azule or whatever)
could reach some direct agreement with the ASF where such a bundle
would be explicitly allowed? Not sure.

--emi

http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 2:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good" uses, like "X
> with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans N", provided
> some basic conditions are met, like:
> -the NetBeans is an officially released unmodified version
> -it is clear which part is Apache NetBeans and which not.
>
> (And I admit the current Payara distribution probably does not fulfil these
> conditions.)
>
> It is not quite clear to me if the policy prohibits this - i.e. this would
> be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed together with
> something else. Not any kind of a "modified" version.
>
> I am worried that if nothing like that is allowed, there will never be a
> bundle of a JDK with "NetBeans" (as Apache cannot do it and others could
> not as well). And "A bundle of a well-known programming platform and a
> well-known IDE" does not look very appealing.
>
> Jan
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:18 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think it is dangerous from a legal standpoint for the (P)PMC to give
> > further interpretation on what Apache wants. The Apache page is quite
> > clear.
> >
> > We don't even need a page, but at most our own page should only be a
> > single link to that page. We don't want to give conflicting
> > information and then allow downstream users claim they were just
> > following the NetBeans (P)PMC recommendation. We also have to keep in
> > sync our page if / when the Apache page changes.
> >
> > PS: Also note that the Payara redistributed Apache NetBeans 10 bundle
> > has a CDDL and GPL w/ CPE dual license (there's a NETBEANS_LICENSE
> > file with the Apache License 2.0 content). Not sure what to make of
> > this, which part is covered by what, etc.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 2:04 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> > <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes. And didn’t know about this. Would be great if you’d take the lead
> > and
> > > put some basic content together on the Wiki as a starting point around
> > > this, with the ultimate aim of having that on netbeans.apache.org. Or
> > else
> > > I will do so during this week — i.e., a summary of the discussions re
> > > branding, bundling, references to apache.org and our own specificities.
> > >
> > > Gj
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, January 15, 2019, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > And to give an example of NetBeans bundling:
> > > > https://github.com/payara/ecosystem-netbeans-plugin/releases
> > > >
> > > > The Payara NetBeans IDE Plugins releases are plain plugins but also
> > > > bundles of Paraya and NetBeans called
> > > > 'PayaraPlugins.1.6.with.Apache.NetBeans.IDE' (there are bundles for
> > > > Apache NetBeans 9 and Apache NetBeans 10).
> > > >
> > > > This seems to be against the provisions at
> > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#products
> > > >
> > > > The resulting bundle is called 'Apache NetBeans 10', there is nothing
> > > > to let users know this is a separate product.
> > > >
> > > > --emi
> > > >
> > > > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and
> > more!
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:40 PM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > For the records, the License FAQ explicitly clarifies the "Powered
> > by"
> > > > > et al vs. TradeMarks:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Antonio
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > El 03/01/2019 a las 16:32, Antonio escribió:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Powered by Spark" may be a good example for us:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://spark.apache.org/powered-by.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Quoting:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ____
> > > > > > Names like “Spark BigCoProduct” are not OK, as are names including
> > > > > > “Spark” in general. The above links, however, describe some
> > exceptions,
> > > > > > like for names such as “BigCoProduct, powered by Apache Spark” or
> > > > > > “BigCoProduct for Apache Spark”.
> > > > > > ____
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Feliz Año,
> > > > > > Antonio
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > El 03/01/2019 a las 14:09, Emilian Bold escribió:
> > > > > >> Apache has a 'Powered by' program which seems a good fit for the
> > > > NetBeans
> > > > > >> Platform.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> --emi
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 14:52, Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> Hi all,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> We should get Apache NetBeans added to the list of ASF
> > Trademarks at
> > > > > >>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list/ (NetBeans is
> > already a
> > > > > >>> tracermark of Apache, isn't it?). We should also mention that
> > Apache
> > > > > >>> NetBeans is a trademark of the ASF at the footer of all web
> > pages in
> > > > our
> > > > > >>> site.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> As we all there's a great ecosystem of apps built on top of the
> > > > NetBeans
> > > > > >>> Platform, and I think it could be good to acknowledge and promote
> > > > this.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> I don't think something like "Built on Top of the Apache NetBeans
> > > > > >>> Platform" is contrary to the ASF tracemark policies.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Cheers,
> > > > > >>> Antonio
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> El 03/01/2019 a las 12:04, Bertrand Delacretaz escribió:
> > > > > >>>> Hi,
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:22 AM Emilian Bold <
> > > > emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >>>>> Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache
> > > > trademarks
> > > > > >>>>> pages?...
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> If you keep it minimal I think it's good - you probably just
> > need
> > > > 2-3
> > > > > >>>> good examples of naming for the types of things that people are
> > > > doing
> > > > > >>>> with NetBeans.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> And of course point to the ASF trademarks pages and avoid
> > > > duplicating
> > > > > >>>> their information.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> But that's a decision for this PPMC to make - whoever does the
> > work
> > > > > >>>> gets to decide, and that's not me ;-)
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> -Bertrand
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ---------
> > > > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > >>>>
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ---------
> > > > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > >>>
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> --
> > > > > >> --emi
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:31 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...I'd be much
> happier if the "convenience binary signed by the release manager, voted and
> approved by (P)PPMC and corresponding to an Apache NetBeans official
> release" would be used.)..

Of course - we just have to be careful how we use the word "release".

Maybe we should just use "release" for Apache Releases of source code
and "binary" for everything else.

-Bertrand

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>]

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 3:32 PM Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good" uses, like
> "X
> > with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans N",
> provided
> > some basic conditions are met,...
>
> Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC just needs
> to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and especially
> as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans and what
> does not.
>

Good to hear, thanks.


>
> > ...this would
> > be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed together
> with
> > something else....
>
> If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official release
> because releases consist only of source code.
>

Yes, I was sloppy here, I apologize. But at least partially intentionally,
as I didn't want to set a very particular form of how NetBeans could be
included. (Although, frankly, if someone actually would bundle the source
release and provide a "convenience script" to build that, that allows for a
fair amount of "creativity", possibly even too much of that. I'd be much
happier if the "convenience binary signed by the release manager, voted and
approved by (P)PPMC and corresponding to an Apache NetBeans official
release" would be used.)

Jan


> It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to clarify at
> the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level view on
> releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way to our
> official docs yet but should help understand.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> [1]
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[John Neffenger <jo...@status6.com>]

On 11/2/19 7:51 AM, Laszlo Kishalmi wrote:
> I'm on Ubuntu (not Debian), checked what is available for the platform. 
> They have the 8.1 platform as library there. Other than that, it is the 
> 10.0 harness.

Right. Here's the full list:

Package netbeans
https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=netbeans&searchon=names&suite=all&section=all

All of the NetBeans packages are old and out of date. I had to stop 
using the Ubuntu package ever since NetBeans 8.2 came out.

That's why I am very grateful for the Ubuntu Snap package as an alternative.

John

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Laszlo Kishalmi <la...@gmail.com>]

On 11/2/19 7:26 AM, Matthias Bläsing wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Am Samstag, den 02.11.2019, 07:19 -0700 schrieb Laszlo Kishalmi:
>> As of netbeans Debian package. It kind of hurts the brand mostly by
>> being unmaintained. The current version can be installed, but it
>> installs with Java 11 which we did not support at version 10. (Not
>> mentioning that version 10 is unsupported), so the package installs, but
>> you cannot do any real Java work with it as it does not able to parse
>> the Java sources. With all the uncontrolled externalized library
>> dependencies it is just a Pandora's Box.
> the last time I heared about a package, that tried to get Debian/Ubuntu
> in line with its own thoughts about how releases should be handled, it
> was Firefox. Mozilla tried to pull trademark and Debian reacted by
> forking Firefox to Iceweasel. Who suffered more at the end is
> debatable.
>
> So if you want to get netbeans out of debian, that is a good way. I'm
> not so worried about the IDE, that is indeed better installed from us,
> but the netbeans platform is a library and if you force debian to drop
> netbeans, they will have to drop the platform too. So be careful about
> the daemons you invoke.

Well, let's give the courtesy to the maintainer to respond Geertjan's 
email.

I'm on Ubuntu (not Debian), checked what is available for the platform. 
They have the 8.1 platform as library there. Other than that, it is the 
10.0 harness.

>
> Matthias
>

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>
>
>

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Matthias Bläsing <mb...@doppel-helix.eu>]

Hi,

Am Samstag, den 02.11.2019, 07:19 -0700 schrieb Laszlo Kishalmi:
> As of netbeans Debian package. It kind of hurts the brand mostly by 
> being unmaintained. The current version can be installed, but it 
> installs with Java 11 which we did not support at version 10. (Not 
> mentioning that version 10 is unsupported), so the package installs, but 
> you cannot do any real Java work with it as it does not able to parse 
> the Java sources. With all the uncontrolled externalized library 
> dependencies it is just a Pandora's Box.

the last time I heared about a package, that tried to get Debian/Ubuntu
in line with its own thoughts about how releases should be handled, it
was Firefox. Mozilla tried to pull trademark and Debian reacted by
forking Firefox to Iceweasel. Who suffered more at the end is
debatable.

So if you want to get netbeans out of debian, that is a good way. I'm
not so worried about the IDE, that is indeed better installed from us,
but the netbeans platform is a library and if you force debian to drop
netbeans, they will have to drop the platform too. So be careful about
the daemons you invoke.

Matthias


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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Laszlo Kishalmi <la...@gmail.com>]

Ugh, just woke up for such an active thread...

Just to be correct: OpenJDK is under GPL with ClassPath Exception. 
Theoretically the Classpath Exception part allows that if you modify the 
classpath only, then you can distribute the JDK under any other license. 
This would allow us bundle a JDK with the NetBeans installer. Though 
Apache Legal has not listed GPL with Classpath Exception as a Category B 
license, so we can't do it.

Earlier I've hitchhiked a LEGAL issue for this, but I was asked to file 
another issue, so here it is: 
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-488

As of netbeans Debian package. It kind of hurts the brand mostly by 
being unmaintained. The current version can be installed, but it 
installs with Java 11 which we did not support at version 10. (Not 
mentioning that version 10 is unsupported), so the package installs, but 
you cannot do any real Java work with it as it does not able to parse 
the Java sources. With all the uncontrolled externalized library 
dependencies it is just a Pandora's Box.

On 11/2/19 4:09 AM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:03 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> It would be great if you'd bundle CoolBeans with a JDK distro, e.g.,
>>> AdoptOpenJDK. Will you do it?
>>
>> Are you saying the NetBeans PMC expressly disallows a NetBeans
>> installer that would bundle AdoptOpenJDK?
>>
>
> I'm saying the exact opposite: the world would welcome a NetBeans installer
> that would bundle AdoptOpenJDK.
>
> However, that installer cannot be distributed by Apache, since the JDK is
> GPL-licensed.
>
> Gj
>
>
>
>
>> --emi
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:55 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>> Interesting, a pretty knowledgeable person there who could be
>> contributing
>>> to NetBeans directly, do you know who it is?
>>>
>>> It would be great if you'd bundle CoolBeans with a JDK distro, e.g.,
>>> AdoptOpenJDK. Will you do it?
>>>
>>> Gj
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:53 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> Could you point me to some document with the conclusion (FAQ, or
>> whatever)?
>>>>> How is Debian NetBeans modified?
>>>> https://sources.debian.org/src/netbeans/10.0-3/debian/patches/ for
>>>> starters.
>>>>
>>>> --emi
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:40 PM Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan@apache.org
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Yes, it did. And that was and is the outcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> How is Debian NetBeans modified?
>>>>>
>>>>> Gj
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:37 AM Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> The discussion never had an outcome. That is why I'm asking. Debian
>>>>>> NetBeans is *modified*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --emi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:31 PM Geertjan Wielenga <
>> geertjan@apache.org
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you
>>>> want to
>>>>>>> combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gj
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <
>> emilian.bold@gmail.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Any particular reason?
>>>>>>>> Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which
>>>> reminded
>>>>>>>> me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian
>> which
>>>>>>>> still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released
>> by
>>>>>>>> Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their
>> package
>>>>>>>> NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs,
>>>> others
>>>>>>>> should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros
>> patch or
>>>>>>>> add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK
>> to it,
>>>>>>>> then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
>>>>>>>> NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just
>> an
>>>>>>>> example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --emi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <
>>>> neilcsmith@apache.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <
>> emilian.bold@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and
>>>>>> trademark is
>>>>>>>>>> these days.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any particular reason?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries
>> made by
>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>> from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under
>>>>>> nominative
>>>>>>>>> fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked
>> earlier. Not
>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>> we've progressed any further on the issue though?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Neil
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists,
>> visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>
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>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>]

Exactly, agree completely.

Gj

On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 3:46 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is it really such a big deal? Google took chunks of IntelliJ IDEA and
> made Android Studio.
>
> Branding NetBeans is not such a hurdle, I did it alone with CoolBeans.
> Surely Amazon/Oracle can afford to have an employee spend some time
> lightly rebranding NetBeans to something else then bundle it with
> whatever.
>
> If they want to promote NetBeans they could use the Apache-sanctioned
> 'Powered By Apache NetBeans', link to us, etc.
>
> So we (the (P)PMC) only have to define the 'Powered By' program then
> defend the trademark when we see it mis-used.
>
> --emi
>
> http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 1:11 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > So, that bring us back to the question of bundling.
> >
> > Imagine Amazon or Oracle, for example, would want to bundle the Apache
> > NetBeans binaries with their JDK.
> >
> > Does that mean that they cannot use the name 'Apache NetBeans'?
> >
> > To some extent, that would not be a problem, I guess, since the most
> likely
> > scenario is that Amazon or Oracle would first add a few plugins of their
> > own (i.e., some kind of AWS connector etc) and only then would they
> bundle
> > the binary with their JDK. At that point, they'd have their own
> > distribution of Apache NetBeans and they'd call it something different
> > anyway, i.e., they wouldn't want to call it Apache NetBeans, they'd call
> it
> > 'Corretto SDK' or something like that.
> >
> > But, in any case, if they were to want to call it Apache NetBeans, they
> > would not be able to do so.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:07 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > That's good. The thing about trademarks is not only that we must
> > > announce it, we must also defend it.
> > >
> > > So we must also keep an eye on all the projects popping up that use
> > > the NetBeans trademarks (text and logo).
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and
> more!
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 9:42 AM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > We now say, at the bottom of each web page, that
> > > >
> > > > "Apache Incubator, Apache, Apache NetBeans, NetBeans, the Apache
> feather
> > > > logo, the Apache NetBeans logo, and the Apache Incubator project logo
> > > > are trademarks of The Apache Software Foundation."
> > > >
> > > > Any comments/enhancements welcome.
> > > >
> > > > El 18/01/2019 a las 12:02, Jan Lahoda escribió:
> > > > > FWIW, there's a discussion on legal-discuss that is, I think,
> related
> > > to
> > > > > this thread:
> > > > >
> > >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/201901.mbox/%3CCAK1xzDeKTOEpKED3PzTLuKkbtRi5ubv5AijcB%3DDvzo8PO0jU4w%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > > > >
> > > > > And there's a link in that thread that may be somewhat relevant as
> > > well:
> > > > >
> > >
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-427?focusedCommentId=16722198&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-16722198
> > > > >
> > > > > Jan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:54 PM Emilian Bold <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Note that the Apache link is about trademarks. It makes no
> difference
> > > if
> > > > >> it's a convenience binary if the trademark is being (mis)used. It
> > > could
> > > > >> just be the name or logo.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --emi
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:32, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Hi,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >>>> ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good"
> uses,
> > > > >> like
> > > > >>> "X
> > > > >>>> with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans
> N",
> > > > >>> provided
> > > > >>>> some basic conditions are met,...
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC
> just
> > > > >> needs
> > > > >>> to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and
> > > especially
> > > > >>> as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans
> and
> > > what
> > > > >>> does not.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> ...this would
> > > > >>>> be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed
> > > together
> > > > >>> with
> > > > >>>> something else....
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official
> release
> > > > >>> because releases consist only of source code.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to
> > > clarify at
> > > > >>> the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level
> > > view on
> > > > >>> releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way
> to
> > > our
> > > > >>> official docs yet but should help understand.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> -Bertrand
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> [1]
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> --emi
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Makes sense.

Gj

On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 at 09:46, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and trademark is
> > these days.
> >
>
> Any particular reason?
>
> I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made by anyone
> from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under nominative
> fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier. Not sure
> we've progressed any further on the issue though?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> >
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Laszlo Kishalmi <la...@gmail.com>]

These patches are Debian build related. They are removing window stuff, 
and renaming some library references used in our code. Seeing all these, 
it is no wonder that the maintenance of the NetBeans Package is hard.

On 11/2/19 12:39 PM, Eric Bresie wrote:
> Silly question these seem like from 10.0 timeframe and/or did any of these changes make into current branch?
>
> What changes/defects were these associated?
>
> Eric Bresie
> Ebresie@gmail.com
>> On November 2, 2019 at 5:52:29 AM CDT, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Could you point me to some document with the conclusion (FAQ, or whatever)?
>>
>>> How is Debian NetBeans modified?
>> https://sources.debian.org/src/netbeans/10.0-3/debian/patches/ for starters.
>>
>> --emi
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:40 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> Yes, it did. And that was and is the outcome.
>>>
>>> How is Debian NetBeans modified?
>>>
>>> Gj
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:37 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The discussion never had an outcome. That is why I'm asking. Debian
>>>> NetBeans is *modified*.
>>>>
>>>> --emi
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:31 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you want to
>>>>> combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gj
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Any particular reason?
>>>>>> Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which reminded
>>>>>> me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian which
>>>>>> still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released by
>>>>>> Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their package
>>>>>> NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs, others
>>>>>> should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros patch or
>>>>>> add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK to it,
>>>>>> then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
>>>>>> NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just an
>>>>>> example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --emi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <em...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and
>>>> trademark is
>>>>>>>> these days.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any particular reason?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made by
>>>> anyone
>>>>>>> from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under
>>>> nominative
>>>>>>> fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier. Not
>>>> sure
>>>>>>> we've progressed any further on the issue though?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
>>

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Re: Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Eric Bresie <eb...@gmail.com>]

Silly question these seem like from 10.0 timeframe and/or did any of these changes make into current branch?

What changes/defects were these associated?

Eric Bresie
Ebresie@gmail.com
> On November 2, 2019 at 5:52:29 AM CDT, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Could you point me to some document with the conclusion (FAQ, or whatever)?
>
> > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
>
> https://sources.debian.org/src/netbeans/10.0-3/debian/patches/ for starters.
>
> --emi
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:40 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, it did. And that was and is the outcome.
> >
> > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:37 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The discussion never had an outcome. That is why I'm asking. Debian
> > > NetBeans is *modified*.
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:31 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you want to
> > > > combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.
> > > >
> > > > Gj
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which reminded
> > > > > me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian which
> > > > > still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released by
> > > > > Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
> > > > >
> > > > > From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their package
> > > > > NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs, others
> > > > > should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros patch or
> > > > > add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
> > > > >
> > > > > In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK to it,
> > > > > then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
> > > > > NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just an
> > > > > example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
> > > > >
> > > > > --emi
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <em...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and
> > > trademark is
> > > > > > > these days.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made by
> > > anyone
> > > > > > from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under
> > > nominative
> > > > > > fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier. Not
> > > sure
> > > > > > we've progressed any further on the issue though?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Neil
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
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>
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>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:44 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Which JDK is CoolBeans currently bundling?
>
> AdoptOpenJDK 11.0.4.
>
> > NetBeans is simply an Apache project. There's no need to ask what the
> > NetBeans position or the NetBeans PMC position is.
>
> There was a discussion about this without a conclusion. If the PMC
> position is that they defer to Apache Legal some sort of FAQ should
> mention this.
>
> > This covers this topic:
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes
> >
> > I.e., if you modify an Apache project then you cannot distribute it under
> its name.
>
> Yet Debian is doing a NetBeans fork using the NetBeans trademark.
>
> >[Niel] At what point does a build turn into a derivative?
>
> Indeed.
>
> > [Niel] It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build
> scripts
> > anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
> > pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.
>
> Would certainly simplify some things for me.
>
> > [Geertjan] I'm saying the exact opposite: the world would welcome a
> NetBeans installer
> that would bundle AdoptOpenJDK.
>
> But can that installer be called "NetBeans"? If not, I'm already doing
> that with CoolBeans.
>
>

Indeed, but you've also modified Apache NetBeans, which is why it is called
CoolBeans. If you put the features that are unique to CoolBeans into Apache
NetBeans, then what you're distributing would be NetBeans indeed. You'd
simply be bundling it with a JDK and not modifying NetBeans and therefore
you'd be entitled tio call it NetBeans.

Gj




> > However, that installer cannot be distributed by Apache, since the JDK is
> GPL-licensed.
>
> I'm not talking about distribution, I'm talking about using the
> NetBeans trademark. Third parties can take care of distribution.
>
> What I'm looking for is:
>
> * transparency: the project having some guidelines about this. A
> simple page where you link to
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes is fine
> by me, but you can't expect some sort of conclusion to be deduced from
> mail archives.
>
> * enforcement: the PMC showing it takes some proactive steps defending
> the brand / trademark. If name changes are mandatory, start enforcing
> this rule with obvious trademark infringements, such as Debian.
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 1:10 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Yup, that would be cool.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:09 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 10:56 Geertjan Wielenga, <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Seems to be Markus Koschany, I'll contact him. If the distro is
> really
> > > > different in a significant way, they could call it DebianBeans,
> maybe.
> > > :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > What would life be if you couldn't rely on Debian to screw up a Java
> > > package?! ;-)
> > >
> > > Not sure if they intend to keep packaging - it's still 10? But this
> feels
> > > borderline. Modifications to externalize dependencies or control what
> > > files/modules are included might be something to allow? OTOH, if that
> leads
> > > to linking to different versions of dependencies that might not? At
> what
> > > point does a build turn into a derivative?
> > >
> > > It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build scripts
> > > anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
> > > pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > > >
> > >
>
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>
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>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:44 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Which JDK is CoolBeans currently bundling?
>
> AdoptOpenJDK 11.0.4.
>
> > NetBeans is simply an Apache project. There's no need to ask what the
> > NetBeans position or the NetBeans PMC position is.
>
> There was a discussion about this without a conclusion. If the PMC
> position is that they defer to Apache Legal some sort of FAQ should
> mention this.
>


No. It's the other way around -- if the NetBeans community were to not
defer to Apache (and why wouldn't they), that's when there should be a FAQ.

Gj




>
> > This covers this topic:
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes
> >
> > I.e., if you modify an Apache project then you cannot distribute it under
> its name.
>
> Yet Debian is doing a NetBeans fork using the NetBeans trademark.
>
> >[Niel] At what point does a build turn into a derivative?
>
> Indeed.
>
> > [Niel] It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build
> scripts
> > anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
> > pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.
>
> Would certainly simplify some things for me.
>
> > [Geertjan] I'm saying the exact opposite: the world would welcome a
> NetBeans installer
> that would bundle AdoptOpenJDK.
>
> But can that installer be called "NetBeans"? If not, I'm already doing
> that with CoolBeans.
>
> > However, that installer cannot be distributed by Apache, since the JDK is
> GPL-licensed.
>
> I'm not talking about distribution, I'm talking about using the
> NetBeans trademark. Third parties can take care of distribution.
>
> What I'm looking for is:
>
> * transparency: the project having some guidelines about this. A
> simple page where you link to
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes is fine
> by me, but you can't expect some sort of conclusion to be deduced from
> mail archives.
>
> * enforcement: the PMC showing it takes some proactive steps defending
> the brand / trademark. If name changes are mandatory, start enforcing
> this rule with obvious trademark infringements, such as Debian.
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 1:10 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Yup, that would be cool.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:09 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 10:56 Geertjan Wielenga, <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Seems to be Markus Koschany, I'll contact him. If the distro is
> really
> > > > different in a significant way, they could call it DebianBeans,
> maybe.
> > > :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > What would life be if you couldn't rely on Debian to screw up a Java
> > > package?! ;-)
> > >
> > > Not sure if they intend to keep packaging - it's still 10? But this
> feels
> > > borderline. Modifications to externalize dependencies or control what
> > > files/modules are included might be something to allow? OTOH, if that
> leads
> > > to linking to different versions of dependencies that might not? At
> what
> > > point does a build turn into a derivative?
> > >
> > > It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build scripts
> > > anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
> > > pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > > >
> > >
>
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>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

OK.

--emi

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 2:27 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I don’t think we need to vote on anything that does not divert from the
> standard Apache Way.
>
> Gj
>
>
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 at 13:10, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > No. It's the other way around -- if the NetBeans community were to not
> > > defer to Apache (and why wouldn't they), that's when there should be a
> > FAQ.
> >
> > I can work with this. But note that this was not the conclusion of any
> > previous talk.
> >
> > > You'd simply be bundling it with a JDK and not modifying NetBeans and
> > therefore
> > > you'd be entitled tio call it NetBeans.
> >
> > Can I still call it NetBeans if I also bundle some plugins (nbjavac,
> > oraclejsparser, nbnotify, C/C++ support, wildfly, maven.search and
> > JavaFX)? Because I've just described CoolBeans.
> >
> > The Payara folks had a NetBeans + some of their plugins bundle. Where
> > they actually OK from a trademark perspective too?
> >
> > > Sure, let's do it. You can provide a PR in the website or wherever you
> > > think would be best or tell me where it would be best.
> >
> > Don't shoot the messenger. This sounds like some sort of project
> > trademark policy that should be voted on, linked from
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetBeans+Policies
> > and created a subpage explaining the conclusion.
> >
> > > You've already seen the mail that I sent to Debian.
> > > If you find other examples, just say so and we'll contact them too.
> >
> > I think Debian was a known example while we discussed this (publicly
> > and/or on private@).
> >
> > Note I don't have anything against Debian, I'm just aiming for some
> > clarity and consistency. You could even make Debian a special case
> > (assuming Apache allows it, etc) but people should know it's a special
> > case.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 1:53 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:44 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > What I'm looking for is:
> > > >
> > > > * transparency: the project having some guidelines about this. A
> > > > simple page where you link to
> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes is fine
> > > > by me, but you can't expect some sort of conclusion to be deduced from
> > > > mail archives.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sure, let's do it. You can provide a PR in the website or wherever you
> > > think would be best or tell me where it would be best.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > * enforcement: the PMC showing it takes some proactive steps defending
> > > > the brand / trademark. If name changes are mandatory, start enforcing
> > > > this rule with obvious trademark infringements, such as Debian.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You've already seen the mail that I sent to Debian.
> > >
> > > If you find other examples, just say so and we'll contact them too.
> > >
> > > Gj
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --emi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 1:10 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Yup, that would be cool.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gj
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:09 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 10:56 Geertjan Wielenga, <ge...@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Seems to be Markus Koschany, I'll contact him. If the distro is
> > > > really
> > > > > > > different in a significant way, they could call it DebianBeans,
> > > > maybe.
> > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What would life be if you couldn't rely on Debian to screw up a
> > Java
> > > > > > package?! ;-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not sure if they intend to keep packaging - it's still 10? But this
> > > > feels
> > > > > > borderline. Modifications to externalize dependencies or control
> > what
> > > > > > files/modules are included might be something to allow? OTOH, if
> > that
> > > > leads
> > > > > > to linking to different versions of dependencies that might not? At
> > > > what
> > > > > > point does a build turn into a derivative?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build
> > scripts
> > > > > > anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
> > > > > > pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Neil
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

I don’t think we need to vote on anything that does not divert from the
standard Apache Way.

Gj


On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 at 13:10, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > No. It's the other way around -- if the NetBeans community were to not
> > defer to Apache (and why wouldn't they), that's when there should be a
> FAQ.
>
> I can work with this. But note that this was not the conclusion of any
> previous talk.
>
> > You'd simply be bundling it with a JDK and not modifying NetBeans and
> therefore
> > you'd be entitled tio call it NetBeans.
>
> Can I still call it NetBeans if I also bundle some plugins (nbjavac,
> oraclejsparser, nbnotify, C/C++ support, wildfly, maven.search and
> JavaFX)? Because I've just described CoolBeans.
>
> The Payara folks had a NetBeans + some of their plugins bundle. Where
> they actually OK from a trademark perspective too?
>
> > Sure, let's do it. You can provide a PR in the website or wherever you
> > think would be best or tell me where it would be best.
>
> Don't shoot the messenger. This sounds like some sort of project
> trademark policy that should be voted on, linked from
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetBeans+Policies
> and created a subpage explaining the conclusion.
>
> > You've already seen the mail that I sent to Debian.
> > If you find other examples, just say so and we'll contact them too.
>
> I think Debian was a known example while we discussed this (publicly
> and/or on private@).
>
> Note I don't have anything against Debian, I'm just aiming for some
> clarity and consistency. You could even make Debian a special case
> (assuming Apache allows it, etc) but people should know it's a special
> case.
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 1:53 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:44 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > What I'm looking for is:
> > >
> > > * transparency: the project having some guidelines about this. A
> > > simple page where you link to
> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes is fine
> > > by me, but you can't expect some sort of conclusion to be deduced from
> > > mail archives.
> > >
> >
> >
> > Sure, let's do it. You can provide a PR in the website or wherever you
> > think would be best or tell me where it would be best.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > * enforcement: the PMC showing it takes some proactive steps defending
> > > the brand / trademark. If name changes are mandatory, start enforcing
> > > this rule with obvious trademark infringements, such as Debian.
> > >
> >
> >
> > You've already seen the mail that I sent to Debian.
> >
> > If you find other examples, just say so and we'll contact them too.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 1:10 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yup, that would be cool.
> > > >
> > > > Gj
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:09 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 10:56 Geertjan Wielenga, <ge...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Seems to be Markus Koschany, I'll contact him. If the distro is
> > > really
> > > > > > different in a significant way, they could call it DebianBeans,
> > > maybe.
> > > > > :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What would life be if you couldn't rely on Debian to screw up a
> Java
> > > > > package?! ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Not sure if they intend to keep packaging - it's still 10? But this
> > > feels
> > > > > borderline. Modifications to externalize dependencies or control
> what
> > > > > files/modules are included might be something to allow? OTOH, if
> that
> > > leads
> > > > > to linking to different versions of dependencies that might not? At
> > > what
> > > > > point does a build turn into a derivative?
> > > > >
> > > > > It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build
> scripts
> > > > > anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
> > > > > pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > >
> > > > > Neil
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

> No. It's the other way around -- if the NetBeans community were to not
> defer to Apache (and why wouldn't they), that's when there should be a FAQ.

I can work with this. But note that this was not the conclusion of any
previous talk.

> You'd simply be bundling it with a JDK and not modifying NetBeans and therefore
> you'd be entitled tio call it NetBeans.

Can I still call it NetBeans if I also bundle some plugins (nbjavac,
oraclejsparser, nbnotify, C/C++ support, wildfly, maven.search and
JavaFX)? Because I've just described CoolBeans.

The Payara folks had a NetBeans + some of their plugins bundle. Where
they actually OK from a trademark perspective too?

> Sure, let's do it. You can provide a PR in the website or wherever you
> think would be best or tell me where it would be best.

Don't shoot the messenger. This sounds like some sort of project
trademark policy that should be voted on, linked from
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetBeans+Policies
and created a subpage explaining the conclusion.

> You've already seen the mail that I sent to Debian.
> If you find other examples, just say so and we'll contact them too.

I think Debian was a known example while we discussed this (publicly
and/or on private@).

Note I don't have anything against Debian, I'm just aiming for some
clarity and consistency. You could even make Debian a special case
(assuming Apache allows it, etc) but people should know it's a special
case.

--emi


On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 1:53 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:44 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > What I'm looking for is:
> >
> > * transparency: the project having some guidelines about this. A
> > simple page where you link to
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes is fine
> > by me, but you can't expect some sort of conclusion to be deduced from
> > mail archives.
> >
>
>
> Sure, let's do it. You can provide a PR in the website or wherever you
> think would be best or tell me where it would be best.
>
>
>
> >
> > * enforcement: the PMC showing it takes some proactive steps defending
> > the brand / trademark. If name changes are mandatory, start enforcing
> > this rule with obvious trademark infringements, such as Debian.
> >
>
>
> You've already seen the mail that I sent to Debian.
>
> If you find other examples, just say so and we'll contact them too.
>
> Gj
>
>
>
> >
> > --emi
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 1:10 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Yup, that would be cool.
> > >
> > > Gj
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:09 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 10:56 Geertjan Wielenga, <ge...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Seems to be Markus Koschany, I'll contact him. If the distro is
> > really
> > > > > different in a significant way, they could call it DebianBeans,
> > maybe.
> > > > :-)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > What would life be if you couldn't rely on Debian to screw up a Java
> > > > package?! ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Not sure if they intend to keep packaging - it's still 10? But this
> > feels
> > > > borderline. Modifications to externalize dependencies or control what
> > > > files/modules are included might be something to allow? OTOH, if that
> > leads
> > > > to linking to different versions of dependencies that might not? At
> > what
> > > > point does a build turn into a derivative?
> > > >
> > > > It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build scripts
> > > > anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
> > > > pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > >
> > > > Neil
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:44 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> What I'm looking for is:
>
> * transparency: the project having some guidelines about this. A
> simple page where you link to
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes is fine
> by me, but you can't expect some sort of conclusion to be deduced from
> mail archives.
>


Sure, let's do it. You can provide a PR in the website or wherever you
think would be best or tell me where it would be best.



>
> * enforcement: the PMC showing it takes some proactive steps defending
> the brand / trademark. If name changes are mandatory, start enforcing
> this rule with obvious trademark infringements, such as Debian.
>


You've already seen the mail that I sent to Debian.

If you find other examples, just say so and we'll contact them too.

Gj



>
> --emi
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 1:10 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Yup, that would be cool.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:09 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 10:56 Geertjan Wielenga, <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Seems to be Markus Koschany, I'll contact him. If the distro is
> really
> > > > different in a significant way, they could call it DebianBeans,
> maybe.
> > > :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > What would life be if you couldn't rely on Debian to screw up a Java
> > > package?! ;-)
> > >
> > > Not sure if they intend to keep packaging - it's still 10? But this
> feels
> > > borderline. Modifications to externalize dependencies or control what
> > > files/modules are included might be something to allow? OTOH, if that
> leads
> > > to linking to different versions of dependencies that might not? At
> what
> > > point does a build turn into a derivative?
> > >
> > > It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build scripts
> > > anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
> > > pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

> Which JDK is CoolBeans currently bundling?

AdoptOpenJDK 11.0.4.

> NetBeans is simply an Apache project. There's no need to ask what the
> NetBeans position or the NetBeans PMC position is.

There was a discussion about this without a conclusion. If the PMC
position is that they defer to Apache Legal some sort of FAQ should
mention this.

> This covers this topic:
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes
>
> I.e., if you modify an Apache project then you cannot distribute it under
its name.

Yet Debian is doing a NetBeans fork using the NetBeans trademark.

>[Niel] At what point does a build turn into a derivative?

Indeed.

> [Niel] It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build scripts
> anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
> pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.

Would certainly simplify some things for me.

> [Geertjan] I'm saying the exact opposite: the world would welcome a NetBeans installer
that would bundle AdoptOpenJDK.

But can that installer be called "NetBeans"? If not, I'm already doing
that with CoolBeans.

> However, that installer cannot be distributed by Apache, since the JDK is
GPL-licensed.

I'm not talking about distribution, I'm talking about using the
NetBeans trademark. Third parties can take care of distribution.

What I'm looking for is:

* transparency: the project having some guidelines about this. A
simple page where you link to
http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes is fine
by me, but you can't expect some sort of conclusion to be deduced from
mail archives.

* enforcement: the PMC showing it takes some proactive steps defending
the brand / trademark. If name changes are mandatory, start enforcing
this rule with obvious trademark infringements, such as Debian.

--emi


On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 1:10 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Yup, that would be cool.
>
> Gj
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:09 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 10:56 Geertjan Wielenga, <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Seems to be Markus Koschany, I'll contact him. If the distro is really
> > > different in a significant way, they could call it DebianBeans, maybe.
> > :-)
> > >
> >
> > What would life be if you couldn't rely on Debian to screw up a Java
> > package?! ;-)
> >
> > Not sure if they intend to keep packaging - it's still 10? But this feels
> > borderline. Modifications to externalize dependencies or control what
> > files/modules are included might be something to allow? OTOH, if that leads
> > to linking to different versions of dependencies that might not? At what
> > point does a build turn into a derivative?
> >
> > It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build scripts
> > anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
> > pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > >
> >

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Yup, that would be cool.

Gj

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:09 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 10:56 Geertjan Wielenga, <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Seems to be Markus Koschany, I'll contact him. If the distro is really
> > different in a significant way, they could call it DebianBeans, maybe.
> :-)
> >
>
> What would life be if you couldn't rely on Debian to screw up a Java
> package?! ;-)
>
> Not sure if they intend to keep packaging - it's still 10? But this feels
> borderline. Modifications to externalize dependencies or control what
> files/modules are included might be something to allow? OTOH, if that leads
> to linking to different versions of dependencies that might not? At what
> point does a build turn into a derivative?
>
> It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build scripts
> anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
> pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> >
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>]

On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 10:56 Geertjan Wielenga, <ge...@apache.org> wrote:

> Seems to be Markus Koschany, I'll contact him. If the distro is really
> different in a significant way, they could call it DebianBeans, maybe. :-)
>

What would life be if you couldn't rely on Debian to screw up a Java
package?! ;-)

Not sure if they intend to keep packaging - it's still 10? But this feels
borderline. Modifications to externalize dependencies or control what
files/modules are included might be something to allow? OTOH, if that leads
to linking to different versions of dependencies that might not? At what
point does a build turn into a derivative?

It would be good to make more of this configurable in our build scripts
anyway. Would really like it to be easy for a downstream build to
pre-include nb-javac and JavaFX if they want to for example.

Best wishes,

Neil

>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Seems to be Markus Koschany, I'll contact him. If the distro is really
different in a significant way, they could call it DebianBeans, maybe. :-)

Gj

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:54 AM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
wrote:

> Interesting, a pretty knowledgeable person there who could be contributing
> to NetBeans directly, do you know who it is?
>
> It would be great if you'd bundle CoolBeans with a JDK distro, e.g.,
> AdoptOpenJDK. Will you do it?
>
> Gj
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:53 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Could you point me to some document with the conclusion (FAQ, or
>> whatever)?
>>
>> > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
>>
>> https://sources.debian.org/src/netbeans/10.0-3/debian/patches/ for
>> starters.
>>
>> --emi
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:40 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Yes, it did. And that was and is the outcome.
>> >
>> > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
>> >
>> > Gj
>> >
>> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:37 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > The discussion never had an outcome. That is why I'm asking. Debian
>> > > NetBeans is *modified*.
>> > >
>> > > --emi
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:31 PM Geertjan Wielenga <
>> geertjan@apache.org>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you
>> want to
>> > > > combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.
>> > > >
>> > > > Gj
>> > > >
>> > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <
>> emilian.bold@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > > Any particular reason?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which
>> reminded
>> > > > > me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian which
>> > > > > still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released by
>> > > > > Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their
>> package
>> > > > > NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs,
>> others
>> > > > > should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros patch
>> or
>> > > > > add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK to
>> it,
>> > > > > then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
>> > > > > NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just an
>> > > > > example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --emi
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <
>> neilcsmith@apache.org>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <emilian.bold@gmail.com
>> >
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and
>> > > trademark is
>> > > > > > > these days.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Any particular reason?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made
>> by
>> > > anyone
>> > > > > > from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under
>> > > nominative
>> > > > > > fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier.
>> Not
>> > > sure
>> > > > > > we've progressed any further on the issue though?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Best wishes,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Neil
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> > > > >
>> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> > > > >
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > >
>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> > >
>> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Ah, right, a discussion was about whether AdoptOpenJDK would bundle
NetBeans.

Which JDK is CoolBeans currently bundling?

NetBeans is simply an Apache project. There's no need to ask what the
NetBeans position or the NetBeans PMC position is.

Here are the Apache licensing terms:

http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html

This covers this topic:

http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes

I.e., if you modify an Apache project then you cannot distribute it under
its name.

You can say "based on Apache NetBeans", etc.

Gj




On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:03 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > It would be great if you'd bundle CoolBeans with a JDK distro, e.g.,
> > AdoptOpenJDK. Will you do it?
>
> CoolBeans has bundled a JDK since day one, November 2018(!).
>
> So, considering various Linux distros, etc. produce Apache trademarked
> artefacts (httpd, netbeans, etc) while also adding their modifications
> (patches, modules, etc), what is the Apache in general and NetBeans
> PMC in particular official position on this?
>
> Are you saying the NetBeans PMC expressly disallows a NetBeans
> installer that would bundle AdoptOpenJDK?
>
> --emi
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:55 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting, a pretty knowledgeable person there who could be
> contributing
> > to NetBeans directly, do you know who it is?
> >
> > It would be great if you'd bundle CoolBeans with a JDK distro, e.g.,
> > AdoptOpenJDK. Will you do it?
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:53 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Could you point me to some document with the conclusion (FAQ, or
> whatever)?
> > >
> > > > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
> > >
> > > https://sources.debian.org/src/netbeans/10.0-3/debian/patches/ for
> > > starters.
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:40 PM Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan@apache.org
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes, it did. And that was and is the outcome.
> > > >
> > > > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
> > > >
> > > > Gj
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:37 AM Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The discussion never had an outcome. That is why I'm asking. Debian
> > > > > NetBeans is *modified*.
> > > > >
> > > > > --emi
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:31 PM Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you
> > > want to
> > > > > > combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gj
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which
> > > reminded
> > > > > > > me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian
> which
> > > > > > > still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released
> by
> > > > > > > Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their
> package
> > > > > > > NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs,
> > > others
> > > > > > > should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros
> patch or
> > > > > > > add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK
> to it,
> > > > > > > then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
> > > > > > > NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just
> an
> > > > > > > example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --emi
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <
> > > neilcsmith@apache.org>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and
> > > > > trademark is
> > > > > > > > > these days.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries
> made by
> > > > > anyone
> > > > > > > > from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under
> > > > > nominative
> > > > > > > > fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked
> earlier. Not
> > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > we've progressed any further on the issue though?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Neil
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists,
> visit:
> > > > > > >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:03 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > It would be great if you'd bundle CoolBeans with a JDK distro, e.g.,
> > AdoptOpenJDK. Will you do it?
>
>
> Are you saying the NetBeans PMC expressly disallows a NetBeans
> installer that would bundle AdoptOpenJDK?
>


I'm saying the exact opposite: the world would welcome a NetBeans installer
that would bundle AdoptOpenJDK.

However, that installer cannot be distributed by Apache, since the JDK is
GPL-licensed.

Gj




>
> --emi
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:55 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting, a pretty knowledgeable person there who could be
> contributing
> > to NetBeans directly, do you know who it is?
> >
> > It would be great if you'd bundle CoolBeans with a JDK distro, e.g.,
> > AdoptOpenJDK. Will you do it?
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:53 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Could you point me to some document with the conclusion (FAQ, or
> whatever)?
> > >
> > > > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
> > >
> > > https://sources.debian.org/src/netbeans/10.0-3/debian/patches/ for
> > > starters.
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:40 PM Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan@apache.org
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes, it did. And that was and is the outcome.
> > > >
> > > > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
> > > >
> > > > Gj
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:37 AM Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The discussion never had an outcome. That is why I'm asking. Debian
> > > > > NetBeans is *modified*.
> > > > >
> > > > > --emi
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:31 PM Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you
> > > want to
> > > > > > combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gj
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which
> > > reminded
> > > > > > > me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian
> which
> > > > > > > still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released
> by
> > > > > > > Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their
> package
> > > > > > > NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs,
> > > others
> > > > > > > should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros
> patch or
> > > > > > > add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK
> to it,
> > > > > > > then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
> > > > > > > NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just
> an
> > > > > > > example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --emi
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <
> > > neilcsmith@apache.org>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and
> > > > > trademark is
> > > > > > > > > these days.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries
> made by
> > > > > anyone
> > > > > > > > from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under
> > > > > nominative
> > > > > > > > fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked
> earlier. Not
> > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > we've progressed any further on the issue though?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Neil
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists,
> visit:
> > > > > > >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

> It would be great if you'd bundle CoolBeans with a JDK distro, e.g.,
> AdoptOpenJDK. Will you do it?

CoolBeans has bundled a JDK since day one, November 2018(!).

So, considering various Linux distros, etc. produce Apache trademarked
artefacts (httpd, netbeans, etc) while also adding their modifications
(patches, modules, etc), what is the Apache in general and NetBeans
PMC in particular official position on this?

Are you saying the NetBeans PMC expressly disallows a NetBeans
installer that would bundle AdoptOpenJDK?

--emi

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:55 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Interesting, a pretty knowledgeable person there who could be contributing
> to NetBeans directly, do you know who it is?
>
> It would be great if you'd bundle CoolBeans with a JDK distro, e.g.,
> AdoptOpenJDK. Will you do it?
>
> Gj
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:53 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Could you point me to some document with the conclusion (FAQ, or whatever)?
> >
> > > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
> >
> > https://sources.debian.org/src/netbeans/10.0-3/debian/patches/ for
> > starters.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:40 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, it did. And that was and is the outcome.
> > >
> > > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
> > >
> > > Gj
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:37 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The discussion never had an outcome. That is why I'm asking. Debian
> > > > NetBeans is *modified*.
> > > >
> > > > --emi
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:31 PM Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan@apache.org
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you
> > want to
> > > > > combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gj
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which
> > reminded
> > > > > > me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian which
> > > > > > still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released by
> > > > > > Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their package
> > > > > > NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs,
> > others
> > > > > > should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros patch or
> > > > > > add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK to it,
> > > > > > then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
> > > > > > NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just an
> > > > > > example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --emi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <
> > neilcsmith@apache.org>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <em...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and
> > > > trademark is
> > > > > > > > these days.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made by
> > > > anyone
> > > > > > > from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under
> > > > nominative
> > > > > > > fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier. Not
> > > > sure
> > > > > > > we've progressed any further on the issue though?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Neil
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Interesting, a pretty knowledgeable person there who could be contributing
to NetBeans directly, do you know who it is?

It would be great if you'd bundle CoolBeans with a JDK distro, e.g.,
AdoptOpenJDK. Will you do it?

Gj

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:53 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Could you point me to some document with the conclusion (FAQ, or whatever)?
>
> > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
>
> https://sources.debian.org/src/netbeans/10.0-3/debian/patches/ for
> starters.
>
> --emi
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:40 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, it did. And that was and is the outcome.
> >
> > How is Debian NetBeans modified?
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:37 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > The discussion never had an outcome. That is why I'm asking. Debian
> > > NetBeans is *modified*.
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:31 PM Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan@apache.org
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you
> want to
> > > > combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.
> > > >
> > > > Gj
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which
> reminded
> > > > > me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian which
> > > > > still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released by
> > > > > Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
> > > > >
> > > > > From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their package
> > > > > NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs,
> others
> > > > > should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros patch or
> > > > > add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
> > > > >
> > > > > In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK to it,
> > > > > then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
> > > > > NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just an
> > > > > example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
> > > > >
> > > > > --emi
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <
> neilcsmith@apache.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <em...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and
> > > trademark is
> > > > > > > these days.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made by
> > > anyone
> > > > > > from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under
> > > nominative
> > > > > > fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier. Not
> > > sure
> > > > > > we've progressed any further on the issue though?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Neil
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
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>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

Could you point me to some document with the conclusion (FAQ, or whatever)?

> How is Debian NetBeans modified?

https://sources.debian.org/src/netbeans/10.0-3/debian/patches/ for starters.

--emi

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:40 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Yes, it did. And that was and is the outcome.
>
> How is Debian NetBeans modified?
>
> Gj
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:37 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The discussion never had an outcome. That is why I'm asking. Debian
> > NetBeans is *modified*.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:31 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you want to
> > > combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.
> > >
> > > Gj
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > >
> > > > Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which reminded
> > > > me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian which
> > > > still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released by
> > > > Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
> > > >
> > > > From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their package
> > > > NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs, others
> > > > should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros patch or
> > > > add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
> > > >
> > > > In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK to it,
> > > > then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
> > > > NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just an
> > > > example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
> > > >
> > > > --emi
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and
> > trademark is
> > > > > > these days.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Any particular reason?
> > > > >
> > > > > I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made by
> > anyone
> > > > > from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under
> > nominative
> > > > > fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier. Not
> > sure
> > > > > we've progressed any further on the issue though?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > >
> > > > > Neil
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Yes, it did. And that was and is the outcome.

How is Debian NetBeans modified?

Gj

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:37 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The discussion never had an outcome. That is why I'm asking. Debian
> NetBeans is *modified*.
>
> --emi
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:31 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you want to
> > combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > > Any particular reason?
> > >
> > > Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which reminded
> > > me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian which
> > > still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released by
> > > Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
> > >
> > > From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their package
> > > NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs, others
> > > should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros patch or
> > > add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
> > >
> > > In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK to it,
> > > then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
> > > NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just an
> > > example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and
> trademark is
> > > > > these days.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Any particular reason?
> > > >
> > > > I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made by
> anyone
> > > > from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under
> nominative
> > > > fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier. Not
> sure
> > > > we've progressed any further on the issue though?
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > >
> > > > Neil
> > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

The discussion never had an outcome. That is why I'm asking. Debian
NetBeans is *modified*.

--emi

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 12:31 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you want to
> combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.
>
> Gj
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Any particular reason?
> >
> > Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which reminded
> > me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian which
> > still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released by
> > Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
> >
> > From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their package
> > NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs, others
> > should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros patch or
> > add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
> >
> > In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK to it,
> > then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
> > NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just an
> > example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and trademark is
> > > > these days.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Any particular reason?
> > >
> > > I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made by anyone
> > > from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under nominative
> > > fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier. Not sure
> > > we've progressed any further on the issue though?
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Neil
> > >
> > > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

If NetBeans is unmodified it is NetBeans, regardless of what you want to
combine it with. It's been discussed and this is the outcome.

Gj

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 11:04 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Any particular reason?
>
> Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which reminded
> me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian which
> still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released by
> Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.
>
> From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their package
> NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs, others
> should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros patch or
> add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).
>
> In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK to it,
> then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
> NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just an
> example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.
>
> --emi
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and trademark is
> > > these days.
> > >
> >
> > Any particular reason?
> >
> > I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made by anyone
> > from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under nominative
> > fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier. Not sure
> > we've progressed any further on the issue though?
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

> Any particular reason?

Well, I saw the new release, then the snapcraft release which reminded
me of the other NetBeans 'forks' under, for example, Debian which
still call themselves NetBeans although they are not released by
Apache. So I remembered we had a talk long ago about this.

From a pure precedent view, if Debian is able to call their package
NetBeans and (heavily) patch the codebase to fit their needs, others
should be able to do the same. (Not to mention how distros patch or
add/remove modules to Apache HTTPD, etc).

In particular, if I just take NetBeans and slap AdoptOpenJDK to it,
then I don't see under what interpretation Apache Legal or the
NetBeans PMC should send a cease and desist. But this is just an
example: a FAQ should perhaps clarify this.

--emi

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 10:46 AM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and trademark is
> > these days.
> >
>
> Any particular reason?
>
> I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made by anyone
> from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under nominative
> fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier. Not sure
> we've progressed any further on the issue though?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> >

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>]

On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, 06:12 Emilian Bold, <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and trademark is
> these days.
>

Any particular reason?

I personally remain of the view that convenience binaries made by anyone
from our (unmodified) source releases should be allowed under nominative
fair use. That seems in line with the ASF FAQ linked earlier. Not sure
we've progressed any further on the issue though?

Best wishes,

Neil

>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

I'm curious what the PMC stance on the NetBeans brand and trademark is
these days. Is there some FAQ or other resource I could read?

Does this seem correct?

> if someone wants to re-distribute effectively (for some meaningful sense)
> unmodified Apache NetBeans under the NetBeans name, it is not so clear to
> me the rules forbid that

--emi




On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 9:39 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think the use-case Apache has in mind is something like Linux
> distributions. These would be (semi-)official organizations that will
> mostly repackage the Apache product, provide minor integration patches
> and then apply security patches, including back-porting patches.
>
> --emi
>
> http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 6:23 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Frankly, I am not sure if the rules (must) be so strict. I mean, if someone
> > takes effectively unmodified Apache NetBeans, renames that and releases
> > that, that's (AFAIK, but IANAL) their right, and it is fine. But, if
> > someone wants to re-distribute effectively (for some meaningful sense)
> > unmodified Apache NetBeans under the NetBeans name, it is not so clear to
> > me the rules forbid that. I know about the link to the FAQs, but there's
> > also the policy itself:
> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/
> >
> > and the discussion and JIRA link I've sent a few days ago. And neither of
> > these feel so strict.
> >
> > Of course it must be clear this project is not doing the re-distribution,
> > etc.
> >
> > One of several things I am concerned of here is that if someone
> > re-distributes effectively unmodified NetBeans, then I think they are more
> > likely to contribute back than those that (for any reason) will use a
> > different name. Not contributing back is (AFAIK, but IANAL) fine per the
> > license, but I think it would be better if we used approaches that
> > encourage contributing back, rather than approaches that discourage
> > contributing back.
> >
> > Jan
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 3:46 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Is it really such a big deal? Google took chunks of IntelliJ IDEA and
> > > made Android Studio.
> > >
> > > Branding NetBeans is not such a hurdle, I did it alone with CoolBeans.
> > > Surely Amazon/Oracle can afford to have an employee spend some time
> > > lightly rebranding NetBeans to something else then bundle it with
> > > whatever.
> > >
> > > If they want to promote NetBeans they could use the Apache-sanctioned
> > > 'Powered By Apache NetBeans', link to us, etc.
> > >
> > > So we (the (P)PMC) only have to define the 'Powered By' program then
> > > defend the trademark when we see it mis-used.
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
> > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 1:11 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> > > <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > So, that bring us back to the question of bundling.
> > > >
> > > > Imagine Amazon or Oracle, for example, would want to bundle the Apache
> > > > NetBeans binaries with their JDK.
> > > >
> > > > Does that mean that they cannot use the name 'Apache NetBeans'?
> > > >
> > > > To some extent, that would not be a problem, I guess, since the most
> > > likely
> > > > scenario is that Amazon or Oracle would first add a few plugins of their
> > > > own (i.e., some kind of AWS connector etc) and only then would they
> > > bundle
> > > > the binary with their JDK. At that point, they'd have their own
> > > > distribution of Apache NetBeans and they'd call it something different
> > > > anyway, i.e., they wouldn't want to call it Apache NetBeans, they'd call
> > > it
> > > > 'Corretto SDK' or something like that.
> > > >
> > > > But, in any case, if they were to want to call it Apache NetBeans, they
> > > > would not be able to do so.
> > > >
> > > > Gj
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:07 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > That's good. The thing about trademarks is not only that we must
> > > > > announce it, we must also defend it.
> > > > >
> > > > > So we must also keep an eye on all the projects popping up that use
> > > > > the NetBeans trademarks (text and logo).
> > > > >
> > > > > --emi
> > > > >
> > > > > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and
> > > more!
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 9:42 AM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We now say, at the bottom of each web page, that
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Apache Incubator, Apache, Apache NetBeans, NetBeans, the Apache
> > > feather
> > > > > > logo, the Apache NetBeans logo, and the Apache Incubator project logo
> > > > > > are trademarks of The Apache Software Foundation."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any comments/enhancements welcome.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > El 18/01/2019 a las 12:02, Jan Lahoda escribió:
> > > > > > > FWIW, there's a discussion on legal-discuss that is, I think,
> > > related
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > this thread:
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/201901.mbox/%3CCAK1xzDeKTOEpKED3PzTLuKkbtRi5ubv5AijcB%3DDvzo8PO0jU4w%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And there's a link in that thread that may be somewhat relevant as
> > > > > well:
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-427?focusedCommentId=16722198&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-16722198
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jan
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:54 PM Emilian Bold <
> > > emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Note that the Apache link is about trademarks. It makes no
> > > difference
> > > > > if
> > > > > > >> it's a convenience binary if the trademark is being (mis)used. It
> > > > > could
> > > > > > >> just be the name or logo.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --emi
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:32, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > > > bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>> Hi,
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >>>> ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good"
> > > uses,
> > > > > > >> like
> > > > > > >>> "X
> > > > > > >>>> with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans
> > > N",
> > > > > > >>> provided
> > > > > > >>>> some basic conditions are met,...
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC
> > > just
> > > > > > >> needs
> > > > > > >>> to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and
> > > > > especially
> > > > > > >>> as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans
> > > and
> > > > > what
> > > > > > >>> does not.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>> ...this would
> > > > > > >>>> be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed
> > > > > together
> > > > > > >>> with
> > > > > > >>>> something else....
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official
> > > release
> > > > > > >>> because releases consist only of source code.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to
> > > > > clarify at
> > > > > > >>> the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level
> > > > > view on
> > > > > > >>> releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way
> > > to
> > > > > our
> > > > > > >>> official docs yet but should help understand.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> -Bertrand
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> [1]
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> --emi
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

I think the use-case Apache has in mind is something like Linux
distributions. These would be (semi-)official organizations that will
mostly repackage the Apache product, provide minor integration patches
and then apply security patches, including back-porting patches.

--emi

http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 6:23 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Frankly, I am not sure if the rules (must) be so strict. I mean, if someone
> takes effectively unmodified Apache NetBeans, renames that and releases
> that, that's (AFAIK, but IANAL) their right, and it is fine. But, if
> someone wants to re-distribute effectively (for some meaningful sense)
> unmodified Apache NetBeans under the NetBeans name, it is not so clear to
> me the rules forbid that. I know about the link to the FAQs, but there's
> also the policy itself:
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/
>
> and the discussion and JIRA link I've sent a few days ago. And neither of
> these feel so strict.
>
> Of course it must be clear this project is not doing the re-distribution,
> etc.
>
> One of several things I am concerned of here is that if someone
> re-distributes effectively unmodified NetBeans, then I think they are more
> likely to contribute back than those that (for any reason) will use a
> different name. Not contributing back is (AFAIK, but IANAL) fine per the
> license, but I think it would be better if we used approaches that
> encourage contributing back, rather than approaches that discourage
> contributing back.
>
> Jan
>
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 3:46 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Is it really such a big deal? Google took chunks of IntelliJ IDEA and
> > made Android Studio.
> >
> > Branding NetBeans is not such a hurdle, I did it alone with CoolBeans.
> > Surely Amazon/Oracle can afford to have an employee spend some time
> > lightly rebranding NetBeans to something else then bundle it with
> > whatever.
> >
> > If they want to promote NetBeans they could use the Apache-sanctioned
> > 'Powered By Apache NetBeans', link to us, etc.
> >
> > So we (the (P)PMC) only have to define the 'Powered By' program then
> > defend the trademark when we see it mis-used.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
> > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 1:11 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> > <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > >
> > > So, that bring us back to the question of bundling.
> > >
> > > Imagine Amazon or Oracle, for example, would want to bundle the Apache
> > > NetBeans binaries with their JDK.
> > >
> > > Does that mean that they cannot use the name 'Apache NetBeans'?
> > >
> > > To some extent, that would not be a problem, I guess, since the most
> > likely
> > > scenario is that Amazon or Oracle would first add a few plugins of their
> > > own (i.e., some kind of AWS connector etc) and only then would they
> > bundle
> > > the binary with their JDK. At that point, they'd have their own
> > > distribution of Apache NetBeans and they'd call it something different
> > > anyway, i.e., they wouldn't want to call it Apache NetBeans, they'd call
> > it
> > > 'Corretto SDK' or something like that.
> > >
> > > But, in any case, if they were to want to call it Apache NetBeans, they
> > > would not be able to do so.
> > >
> > > Gj
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:07 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > That's good. The thing about trademarks is not only that we must
> > > > announce it, we must also defend it.
> > > >
> > > > So we must also keep an eye on all the projects popping up that use
> > > > the NetBeans trademarks (text and logo).
> > > >
> > > > --emi
> > > >
> > > > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and
> > more!
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 9:42 AM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > We now say, at the bottom of each web page, that
> > > > >
> > > > > "Apache Incubator, Apache, Apache NetBeans, NetBeans, the Apache
> > feather
> > > > > logo, the Apache NetBeans logo, and the Apache Incubator project logo
> > > > > are trademarks of The Apache Software Foundation."
> > > > >
> > > > > Any comments/enhancements welcome.
> > > > >
> > > > > El 18/01/2019 a las 12:02, Jan Lahoda escribió:
> > > > > > FWIW, there's a discussion on legal-discuss that is, I think,
> > related
> > > > to
> > > > > > this thread:
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/201901.mbox/%3CCAK1xzDeKTOEpKED3PzTLuKkbtRi5ubv5AijcB%3DDvzo8PO0jU4w%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And there's a link in that thread that may be somewhat relevant as
> > > > well:
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-427?focusedCommentId=16722198&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-16722198
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:54 PM Emilian Bold <
> > emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Note that the Apache link is about trademarks. It makes no
> > difference
> > > > if
> > > > > >> it's a convenience binary if the trademark is being (mis)used. It
> > > > could
> > > > > >> just be the name or logo.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> --emi
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:32, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > > bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> Hi,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >>>> ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good"
> > uses,
> > > > > >> like
> > > > > >>> "X
> > > > > >>>> with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans
> > N",
> > > > > >>> provided
> > > > > >>>> some basic conditions are met,...
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC
> > just
> > > > > >> needs
> > > > > >>> to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and
> > > > especially
> > > > > >>> as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans
> > and
> > > > what
> > > > > >>> does not.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> ...this would
> > > > > >>>> be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed
> > > > together
> > > > > >>> with
> > > > > >>>> something else....
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official
> > release
> > > > > >>> because releases consist only of source code.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to
> > > > clarify at
> > > > > >>> the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level
> > > > view on
> > > > > >>> releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way
> > to
> > > > our
> > > > > >>> official docs yet but should help understand.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> -Bertrand
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> [1]
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> --emi
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>]

Yes, to me, that makes sense too. We should keep this in mind especially
for when it becomes relevant, i.e., a situation presents itself around this.

Gj

On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 5:23 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Frankly, I am not sure if the rules (must) be so strict. I mean, if someone
> takes effectively unmodified Apache NetBeans, renames that and releases
> that, that's (AFAIK, but IANAL) their right, and it is fine. But, if
> someone wants to re-distribute effectively (for some meaningful sense)
> unmodified Apache NetBeans under the NetBeans name, it is not so clear to
> me the rules forbid that. I know about the link to the FAQs, but there's
> also the policy itself:
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/
>
> and the discussion and JIRA link I've sent a few days ago. And neither of
> these feel so strict.
>
> Of course it must be clear this project is not doing the re-distribution,
> etc.
>
> One of several things I am concerned of here is that if someone
> re-distributes effectively unmodified NetBeans, then I think they are more
> likely to contribute back than those that (for any reason) will use a
> different name. Not contributing back is (AFAIK, but IANAL) fine per the
> license, but I think it would be better if we used approaches that
> encourage contributing back, rather than approaches that discourage
> contributing back.
>
> Jan
>
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 3:46 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Is it really such a big deal? Google took chunks of IntelliJ IDEA and
> > made Android Studio.
> >
> > Branding NetBeans is not such a hurdle, I did it alone with CoolBeans.
> > Surely Amazon/Oracle can afford to have an employee spend some time
> > lightly rebranding NetBeans to something else then bundle it with
> > whatever.
> >
> > If they want to promote NetBeans they could use the Apache-sanctioned
> > 'Powered By Apache NetBeans', link to us, etc.
> >
> > So we (the (P)PMC) only have to define the 'Powered By' program then
> > defend the trademark when we see it mis-used.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and
> more!
> > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 1:11 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> > <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > >
> > > So, that bring us back to the question of bundling.
> > >
> > > Imagine Amazon or Oracle, for example, would want to bundle the Apache
> > > NetBeans binaries with their JDK.
> > >
> > > Does that mean that they cannot use the name 'Apache NetBeans'?
> > >
> > > To some extent, that would not be a problem, I guess, since the most
> > likely
> > > scenario is that Amazon or Oracle would first add a few plugins of
> their
> > > own (i.e., some kind of AWS connector etc) and only then would they
> > bundle
> > > the binary with their JDK. At that point, they'd have their own
> > > distribution of Apache NetBeans and they'd call it something different
> > > anyway, i.e., they wouldn't want to call it Apache NetBeans, they'd
> call
> > it
> > > 'Corretto SDK' or something like that.
> > >
> > > But, in any case, if they were to want to call it Apache NetBeans, they
> > > would not be able to do so.
> > >
> > > Gj
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:07 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > That's good. The thing about trademarks is not only that we must
> > > > announce it, we must also defend it.
> > > >
> > > > So we must also keep an eye on all the projects popping up that use
> > > > the NetBeans trademarks (text and logo).
> > > >
> > > > --emi
> > > >
> > > > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and
> > more!
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 9:42 AM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > We now say, at the bottom of each web page, that
> > > > >
> > > > > "Apache Incubator, Apache, Apache NetBeans, NetBeans, the Apache
> > feather
> > > > > logo, the Apache NetBeans logo, and the Apache Incubator project
> logo
> > > > > are trademarks of The Apache Software Foundation."
> > > > >
> > > > > Any comments/enhancements welcome.
> > > > >
> > > > > El 18/01/2019 a las 12:02, Jan Lahoda escribió:
> > > > > > FWIW, there's a discussion on legal-discuss that is, I think,
> > related
> > > > to
> > > > > > this thread:
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/201901.mbox/%3CCAK1xzDeKTOEpKED3PzTLuKkbtRi5ubv5AijcB%3DDvzo8PO0jU4w%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And there's a link in that thread that may be somewhat relevant
> as
> > > > well:
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-427?focusedCommentId=16722198&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-16722198
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:54 PM Emilian Bold <
> > emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Note that the Apache link is about trademarks. It makes no
> > difference
> > > > if
> > > > > >> it's a convenience binary if the trademark is being (mis)used.
> It
> > > > could
> > > > > >> just be the name or logo.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> --emi
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:32, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > > bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> Hi,
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >>>> ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good"
> > uses,
> > > > > >> like
> > > > > >>> "X
> > > > > >>>> with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans
> > N",
> > > > > >>> provided
> > > > > >>>> some basic conditions are met,...
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC
> > just
> > > > > >> needs
> > > > > >>> to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and
> > > > especially
> > > > > >>> as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache
> NetBeans
> > and
> > > > what
> > > > > >>> does not.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> ...this would
> > > > > >>>> be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed
> > > > together
> > > > > >>> with
> > > > > >>>> something else....
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official
> > release
> > > > > >>> because releases consist only of source code.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to
> > > > clarify at
> > > > > >>> the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a
> two-level
> > > > view on
> > > > > >>> releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its
> way
> > to
> > > > our
> > > > > >>> official docs yet but should help understand.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> -Bertrand
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> [1]
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> --emi
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>]

Frankly, I am not sure if the rules (must) be so strict. I mean, if someone
takes effectively unmodified Apache NetBeans, renames that and releases
that, that's (AFAIK, but IANAL) their right, and it is fine. But, if
someone wants to re-distribute effectively (for some meaningful sense)
unmodified Apache NetBeans under the NetBeans name, it is not so clear to
me the rules forbid that. I know about the link to the FAQs, but there's
also the policy itself:
https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/

and the discussion and JIRA link I've sent a few days ago. And neither of
these feel so strict.

Of course it must be clear this project is not doing the re-distribution,
etc.

One of several things I am concerned of here is that if someone
re-distributes effectively unmodified NetBeans, then I think they are more
likely to contribute back than those that (for any reason) will use a
different name. Not contributing back is (AFAIK, but IANAL) fine per the
license, but I think it would be better if we used approaches that
encourage contributing back, rather than approaches that discourage
contributing back.

Jan

On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 3:46 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is it really such a big deal? Google took chunks of IntelliJ IDEA and
> made Android Studio.
>
> Branding NetBeans is not such a hurdle, I did it alone with CoolBeans.
> Surely Amazon/Oracle can afford to have an employee spend some time
> lightly rebranding NetBeans to something else then bundle it with
> whatever.
>
> If they want to promote NetBeans they could use the Apache-sanctioned
> 'Powered By Apache NetBeans', link to us, etc.
>
> So we (the (P)PMC) only have to define the 'Powered By' program then
> defend the trademark when we see it mis-used.
>
> --emi
>
> http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 1:11 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > So, that bring us back to the question of bundling.
> >
> > Imagine Amazon or Oracle, for example, would want to bundle the Apache
> > NetBeans binaries with their JDK.
> >
> > Does that mean that they cannot use the name 'Apache NetBeans'?
> >
> > To some extent, that would not be a problem, I guess, since the most
> likely
> > scenario is that Amazon or Oracle would first add a few plugins of their
> > own (i.e., some kind of AWS connector etc) and only then would they
> bundle
> > the binary with their JDK. At that point, they'd have their own
> > distribution of Apache NetBeans and they'd call it something different
> > anyway, i.e., they wouldn't want to call it Apache NetBeans, they'd call
> it
> > 'Corretto SDK' or something like that.
> >
> > But, in any case, if they were to want to call it Apache NetBeans, they
> > would not be able to do so.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:07 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > That's good. The thing about trademarks is not only that we must
> > > announce it, we must also defend it.
> > >
> > > So we must also keep an eye on all the projects popping up that use
> > > the NetBeans trademarks (text and logo).
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and
> more!
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 9:42 AM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > We now say, at the bottom of each web page, that
> > > >
> > > > "Apache Incubator, Apache, Apache NetBeans, NetBeans, the Apache
> feather
> > > > logo, the Apache NetBeans logo, and the Apache Incubator project logo
> > > > are trademarks of The Apache Software Foundation."
> > > >
> > > > Any comments/enhancements welcome.
> > > >
> > > > El 18/01/2019 a las 12:02, Jan Lahoda escribió:
> > > > > FWIW, there's a discussion on legal-discuss that is, I think,
> related
> > > to
> > > > > this thread:
> > > > >
> > >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/201901.mbox/%3CCAK1xzDeKTOEpKED3PzTLuKkbtRi5ubv5AijcB%3DDvzo8PO0jU4w%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > > > >
> > > > > And there's a link in that thread that may be somewhat relevant as
> > > well:
> > > > >
> > >
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-427?focusedCommentId=16722198&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-16722198
> > > > >
> > > > > Jan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:54 PM Emilian Bold <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Note that the Apache link is about trademarks. It makes no
> difference
> > > if
> > > > >> it's a convenience binary if the trademark is being (mis)used. It
> > > could
> > > > >> just be the name or logo.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --emi
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:32, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Hi,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >>>> ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good"
> uses,
> > > > >> like
> > > > >>> "X
> > > > >>>> with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans
> N",
> > > > >>> provided
> > > > >>>> some basic conditions are met,...
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC
> just
> > > > >> needs
> > > > >>> to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and
> > > especially
> > > > >>> as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans
> and
> > > what
> > > > >>> does not.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> ...this would
> > > > >>>> be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed
> > > together
> > > > >>> with
> > > > >>>> something else....
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official
> release
> > > > >>> because releases consist only of source code.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to
> > > clarify at
> > > > >>> the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level
> > > view on
> > > > >>> releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way
> to
> > > our
> > > > >>> official docs yet but should help understand.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> -Bertrand
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> [1]
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> --emi
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

Is it really such a big deal? Google took chunks of IntelliJ IDEA and
made Android Studio.

Branding NetBeans is not such a hurdle, I did it alone with CoolBeans.
Surely Amazon/Oracle can afford to have an employee spend some time
lightly rebranding NetBeans to something else then bundle it with
whatever.

If they want to promote NetBeans they could use the Apache-sanctioned
'Powered By Apache NetBeans', link to us, etc.

So we (the (P)PMC) only have to define the 'Powered By' program then
defend the trademark when we see it mis-used.

--emi

http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 1:11 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> So, that bring us back to the question of bundling.
>
> Imagine Amazon or Oracle, for example, would want to bundle the Apache
> NetBeans binaries with their JDK.
>
> Does that mean that they cannot use the name 'Apache NetBeans'?
>
> To some extent, that would not be a problem, I guess, since the most likely
> scenario is that Amazon or Oracle would first add a few plugins of their
> own (i.e., some kind of AWS connector etc) and only then would they bundle
> the binary with their JDK. At that point, they'd have their own
> distribution of Apache NetBeans and they'd call it something different
> anyway, i.e., they wouldn't want to call it Apache NetBeans, they'd call it
> 'Corretto SDK' or something like that.
>
> But, in any case, if they were to want to call it Apache NetBeans, they
> would not be able to do so.
>
> Gj
>
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:07 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > That's good. The thing about trademarks is not only that we must
> > announce it, we must also defend it.
> >
> > So we must also keep an eye on all the projects popping up that use
> > the NetBeans trademarks (text and logo).
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 9:42 AM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > We now say, at the bottom of each web page, that
> > >
> > > "Apache Incubator, Apache, Apache NetBeans, NetBeans, the Apache feather
> > > logo, the Apache NetBeans logo, and the Apache Incubator project logo
> > > are trademarks of The Apache Software Foundation."
> > >
> > > Any comments/enhancements welcome.
> > >
> > > El 18/01/2019 a las 12:02, Jan Lahoda escribió:
> > > > FWIW, there's a discussion on legal-discuss that is, I think, related
> > to
> > > > this thread:
> > > >
> > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/201901.mbox/%3CCAK1xzDeKTOEpKED3PzTLuKkbtRi5ubv5AijcB%3DDvzo8PO0jU4w%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > > >
> > > > And there's a link in that thread that may be somewhat relevant as
> > well:
> > > >
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-427?focusedCommentId=16722198&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-16722198
> > > >
> > > > Jan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:54 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Note that the Apache link is about trademarks. It makes no difference
> > if
> > > >> it's a convenience binary if the trademark is being (mis)used. It
> > could
> > > >> just be the name or logo.
> > > >>
> > > >> --emi
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:32, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Hi,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>> ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good" uses,
> > > >> like
> > > >>> "X
> > > >>>> with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans N",
> > > >>> provided
> > > >>>> some basic conditions are met,...
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC just
> > > >> needs
> > > >>> to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and
> > especially
> > > >>> as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans and
> > what
> > > >>> does not.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> ...this would
> > > >>>> be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed
> > together
> > > >>> with
> > > >>>> something else....
> > > >>>
> > > >>> If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official release
> > > >>> because releases consist only of source code.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to
> > clarify at
> > > >>> the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level
> > view on
> > > >>> releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way to
> > our
> > > >>> official docs yet but should help understand.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -Bertrand
> > > >>>
> > > >>> [1]
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> > > >>>
> > > >> --
> > > >> --emi
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>]

So, that bring us back to the question of bundling.

Imagine Amazon or Oracle, for example, would want to bundle the Apache
NetBeans binaries with their JDK.

Does that mean that they cannot use the name 'Apache NetBeans'?

To some extent, that would not be a problem, I guess, since the most likely
scenario is that Amazon or Oracle would first add a few plugins of their
own (i.e., some kind of AWS connector etc) and only then would they bundle
the binary with their JDK. At that point, they'd have their own
distribution of Apache NetBeans and they'd call it something different
anyway, i.e., they wouldn't want to call it Apache NetBeans, they'd call it
'Corretto SDK' or something like that.

But, in any case, if they were to want to call it Apache NetBeans, they
would not be able to do so.

Gj

On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:07 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> That's good. The thing about trademarks is not only that we must
> announce it, we must also defend it.
>
> So we must also keep an eye on all the projects popping up that use
> the NetBeans trademarks (text and logo).
>
> --emi
>
> http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
>
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 9:42 AM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > We now say, at the bottom of each web page, that
> >
> > "Apache Incubator, Apache, Apache NetBeans, NetBeans, the Apache feather
> > logo, the Apache NetBeans logo, and the Apache Incubator project logo
> > are trademarks of The Apache Software Foundation."
> >
> > Any comments/enhancements welcome.
> >
> > El 18/01/2019 a las 12:02, Jan Lahoda escribió:
> > > FWIW, there's a discussion on legal-discuss that is, I think, related
> to
> > > this thread:
> > >
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/201901.mbox/%3CCAK1xzDeKTOEpKED3PzTLuKkbtRi5ubv5AijcB%3DDvzo8PO0jU4w%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > >
> > > And there's a link in that thread that may be somewhat relevant as
> well:
> > >
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-427?focusedCommentId=16722198&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-16722198
> > >
> > > Jan
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:54 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Note that the Apache link is about trademarks. It makes no difference
> if
> > >> it's a convenience binary if the trademark is being (mis)used. It
> could
> > >> just be the name or logo.
> > >>
> > >> --emi
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:32, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>> ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good" uses,
> > >> like
> > >>> "X
> > >>>> with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans N",
> > >>> provided
> > >>>> some basic conditions are met,...
> > >>>
> > >>> Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC just
> > >> needs
> > >>> to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and
> especially
> > >>> as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans and
> what
> > >>> does not.
> > >>>
> > >>>> ...this would
> > >>>> be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed
> together
> > >>> with
> > >>>> something else....
> > >>>
> > >>> If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official release
> > >>> because releases consist only of source code.
> > >>>
> > >>> It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to
> clarify at
> > >>> the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level
> view on
> > >>> releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way to
> our
> > >>> official docs yet but should help understand.
> > >>>
> > >>> -Bertrand
> > >>>
> > >>> [1]
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> > >>>
> > >> --
> > >> --emi
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

That's good. The thing about trademarks is not only that we must
announce it, we must also defend it.

So we must also keep an eye on all the projects popping up that use
the NetBeans trademarks (text and logo).

--emi

http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!

On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 9:42 AM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> We now say, at the bottom of each web page, that
>
> "Apache Incubator, Apache, Apache NetBeans, NetBeans, the Apache feather
> logo, the Apache NetBeans logo, and the Apache Incubator project logo
> are trademarks of The Apache Software Foundation."
>
> Any comments/enhancements welcome.
>
> El 18/01/2019 a las 12:02, Jan Lahoda escribió:
> > FWIW, there's a discussion on legal-discuss that is, I think, related to
> > this thread:
> > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/201901.mbox/%3CCAK1xzDeKTOEpKED3PzTLuKkbtRi5ubv5AijcB%3DDvzo8PO0jU4w%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> >
> > And there's a link in that thread that may be somewhat relevant as well:
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-427?focusedCommentId=16722198&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-16722198
> >
> > Jan
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:54 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Note that the Apache link is about trademarks. It makes no difference if
> >> it's a convenience binary if the trademark is being (mis)used. It could
> >> just be the name or logo.
> >>
> >> --emi
> >>
> >> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:32, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good" uses,
> >> like
> >>> "X
> >>>> with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans N",
> >>> provided
> >>>> some basic conditions are met,...
> >>>
> >>> Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC just
> >> needs
> >>> to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and especially
> >>> as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans and what
> >>> does not.
> >>>
> >>>> ...this would
> >>>> be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed together
> >>> with
> >>>> something else....
> >>>
> >>> If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official release
> >>> because releases consist only of source code.
> >>>
> >>> It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to clarify at
> >>> the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level view on
> >>> releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way to our
> >>> official docs yet but should help understand.
> >>>
> >>> -Bertrand
> >>>
> >>> [1]
> >>>
> >>>
> >> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> >>>
> >> --
> >> --emi
> >>
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Antonio <an...@vieiro.net>]

Hi,

We now say, at the bottom of each web page, that

"Apache Incubator, Apache, Apache NetBeans, NetBeans, the Apache feather 
logo, the Apache NetBeans logo, and the Apache Incubator project logo 
are trademarks of The Apache Software Foundation."

Any comments/enhancements welcome.

El 18/01/2019 a las 12:02, Jan Lahoda escribió:
> FWIW, there's a discussion on legal-discuss that is, I think, related to
> this thread:
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/201901.mbox/%3CCAK1xzDeKTOEpKED3PzTLuKkbtRi5ubv5AijcB%3DDvzo8PO0jU4w%40mail.gmail.com%3E
> 
> And there's a link in that thread that may be somewhat relevant as well:
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-427?focusedCommentId=16722198&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-16722198
> 
> Jan
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:54 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Note that the Apache link is about trademarks. It makes no difference if
>> it's a convenience binary if the trademark is being (mis)used. It could
>> just be the name or logo.
>>
>> --emi
>>
>> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:32, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good" uses,
>> like
>>> "X
>>>> with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans N",
>>> provided
>>>> some basic conditions are met,...
>>>
>>> Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC just
>> needs
>>> to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and especially
>>> as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans and what
>>> does not.
>>>
>>>> ...this would
>>>> be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed together
>>> with
>>>> something else....
>>>
>>> If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official release
>>> because releases consist only of source code.
>>>
>>> It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to clarify at
>>> the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level view on
>>> releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way to our
>>> official docs yet but should help understand.
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
>>> [1]
>>>
>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
>>>
>> --
>> --emi
>>
> 

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>]

FWIW, there's a discussion on legal-discuss that is, I think, related to
this thread:
https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/201901.mbox/%3CCAK1xzDeKTOEpKED3PzTLuKkbtRi5ubv5AijcB%3DDvzo8PO0jU4w%40mail.gmail.com%3E

And there's a link in that thread that may be somewhat relevant as well:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-427?focusedCommentId=16722198&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-16722198

Jan


On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:54 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Note that the Apache link is about trademarks. It makes no difference if
> it's a convenience binary if the trademark is being (mis)used. It could
> just be the name or logo.
>
> --emi
>
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:32, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good" uses,
> like
> > "X
> > > with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans N",
> > provided
> > > some basic conditions are met,...
> >
> > Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC just
> needs
> > to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and especially
> > as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans and what
> > does not.
> >
> > > ...this would
> > > be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed together
> > with
> > > something else....
> >
> > If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official release
> > because releases consist only of source code.
> >
> > It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to clarify at
> > the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level view on
> > releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way to our
> > official docs yet but should help understand.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
> >
> --
> --emi
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

Note that the Apache link is about trademarks. It makes no difference if
it's a convenience binary if the trademark is being (mis)used. It could
just be the name or logo.

--emi

On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 16:32, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good" uses, like
> "X
> > with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans N",
> provided
> > some basic conditions are met,...
>
> Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC just needs
> to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and especially
> as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans and what
> does not.
>
> > ...this would
> > be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed together
> with
> > something else....
>
> If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official release
> because releases consist only of source code.
>
> It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to clarify at
> the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level view on
> releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way to our
> official docs yet but should help understand.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> [1]
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
>
-- 
--emi

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:44 PM Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good" uses, like
"X
> with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans N", provided
> some basic conditions are met,...

Of course that's possible, as Geertjan says the NetBeans (P)PMC just needs
to clarify how things have to be named, to avoid confusion and especially
as you say make it crystal clear what comes from Apache NetBeans and what
does not.

> ...this would
> be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed together with
> something else....

If it's binaries then no, it is not distributing an official release
because releases consist only of source code.

It's redistributing a convenience binary...I think we need to clarify at
the Apache level this difference, I recently proposed a two-level view on
releases and convenience binaries [1] which has not made its way to our
official docs yet but should help understand.

-Bertrand

[1]
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/01a64394c3996406d98904256ebdd46667bf73947983722e7ab57f50@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>]

Frankly, I wonder if there's a chance to allow some "good" uses, like "X
with Apache NetBeans N" or a "Bundle of X and Apache NetBeans N", provided
some basic conditions are met, like:
-the NetBeans is an officially released unmodified version
-it is clear which part is Apache NetBeans and which not.

(And I admit the current Payara distribution probably does not fulfil these
conditions.)

It is not quite clear to me if the policy prohibits this - i.e. this would
be distributing an official release of NetBeans, just packed together with
something else. Not any kind of a "modified" version.

I am worried that if nothing like that is allowed, there will never be a
bundle of a JDK with "NetBeans" (as Apache cannot do it and others could
not as well). And "A bundle of a well-known programming platform and a
well-known IDE" does not look very appealing.

Jan


On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:18 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think it is dangerous from a legal standpoint for the (P)PMC to give
> further interpretation on what Apache wants. The Apache page is quite
> clear.
>
> We don't even need a page, but at most our own page should only be a
> single link to that page. We don't want to give conflicting
> information and then allow downstream users claim they were just
> following the NetBeans (P)PMC recommendation. We also have to keep in
> sync our page if / when the Apache page changes.
>
> PS: Also note that the Payara redistributed Apache NetBeans 10 bundle
> has a CDDL and GPL w/ CPE dual license (there's a NETBEANS_LICENSE
> file with the Apache License 2.0 content). Not sure what to make of
> this, which part is covered by what, etc.
>
> --emi
>
> http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
>
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 2:04 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > Yes. And didn’t know about this. Would be great if you’d take the lead
> and
> > put some basic content together on the Wiki as a starting point around
> > this, with the ultimate aim of having that on netbeans.apache.org. Or
> else
> > I will do so during this week — i.e., a summary of the discussions re
> > branding, bundling, references to apache.org and our own specificities.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Tuesday, January 15, 2019, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > And to give an example of NetBeans bundling:
> > > https://github.com/payara/ecosystem-netbeans-plugin/releases
> > >
> > > The Payara NetBeans IDE Plugins releases are plain plugins but also
> > > bundles of Paraya and NetBeans called
> > > 'PayaraPlugins.1.6.with.Apache.NetBeans.IDE' (there are bundles for
> > > Apache NetBeans 9 and Apache NetBeans 10).
> > >
> > > This seems to be against the provisions at
> > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#products
> > >
> > > The resulting bundle is called 'Apache NetBeans 10', there is nothing
> > > to let users know this is a separate product.
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and
> more!
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:40 PM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > For the records, the License FAQ explicitly clarifies the "Powered
> by"
> > > > et al vs. TradeMarks:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Antonio
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > El 03/01/2019 a las 16:32, Antonio escribió:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > "Powered by Spark" may be a good example for us:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://spark.apache.org/powered-by.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Quoting:
> > > > >
> > > > > ____
> > > > > Names like “Spark BigCoProduct” are not OK, as are names including
> > > > > “Spark” in general. The above links, however, describe some
> exceptions,
> > > > > like for names such as “BigCoProduct, powered by Apache Spark” or
> > > > > “BigCoProduct for Apache Spark”.
> > > > > ____
> > > > >
> > > > > Feliz Año,
> > > > > Antonio
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > El 03/01/2019 a las 14:09, Emilian Bold escribió:
> > > > >> Apache has a 'Powered by' program which seems a good fit for the
> > > NetBeans
> > > > >> Platform.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --emi
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 14:52, Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Hi all,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> We should get Apache NetBeans added to the list of ASF
> Trademarks at
> > > > >>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list/ (NetBeans is
> already a
> > > > >>> tracermark of Apache, isn't it?). We should also mention that
> Apache
> > > > >>> NetBeans is a trademark of the ASF at the footer of all web
> pages in
> > > our
> > > > >>> site.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> As we all there's a great ecosystem of apps built on top of the
> > > NetBeans
> > > > >>> Platform, and I think it could be good to acknowledge and promote
> > > this.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I don't think something like "Built on Top of the Apache NetBeans
> > > > >>> Platform" is contrary to the ASF tracemark policies.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Cheers,
> > > > >>> Antonio
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> El 03/01/2019 a las 12:04, Bertrand Delacretaz escribió:
> > > > >>>> Hi,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:22 AM Emilian Bold <
> > > emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache
> > > trademarks
> > > > >>>>> pages?...
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> If you keep it minimal I think it's good - you probably just
> need
> > > 2-3
> > > > >>>> good examples of naming for the types of things that people are
> > > doing
> > > > >>>> with NetBeans.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> And of course point to the ASF trademarks pages and avoid
> > > duplicating
> > > > >>>> their information.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> But that's a decision for this PPMC to make - whoever does the
> work
> > > > >>>> gets to decide, and that's not me ;-)
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> -Bertrand
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ---------
> > > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > >>>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ---------
> > > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > >>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --
> > > > >> --emi
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>]

Understood, reinterpreting things that are already documented etc will lead
to confusion. But a basic FAQ with questions/answers like “I am a JDK
vendor and would like to bundle Apache NetBeans, what should I bear in
mind?” would be helpful. I’ll work on it unless someone else volunteers.

Gj



On Tuesday, January 15, 2019, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think it is dangerous from a legal standpoint for the (P)PMC to give
> further interpretation on what Apache wants. The Apache page is quite
> clear.
>
> We don't even need a page, but at most our own page should only be a
> single link to that page. We don't want to give conflicting
> information and then allow downstream users claim they were just
> following the NetBeans (P)PMC recommendation. We also have to keep in
> sync our page if / when the Apache page changes.
>
> PS: Also note that the Payara redistributed Apache NetBeans 10 bundle
> has a CDDL and GPL w/ CPE dual license (there's a NETBEANS_LICENSE
> file with the Apache License 2.0 content). Not sure what to make of
> this, which part is covered by what, etc.
>
> --emi
>
> http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
>
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 2:04 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > Yes. And didn’t know about this. Would be great if you’d take the lead
> and
> > put some basic content together on the Wiki as a starting point around
> > this, with the ultimate aim of having that on netbeans.apache.org. Or
> else
> > I will do so during this week — i.e., a summary of the discussions re
> > branding, bundling, references to apache.org and our own specificities.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Tuesday, January 15, 2019, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > And to give an example of NetBeans bundling:
> > > https://github.com/payara/ecosystem-netbeans-plugin/releases
> > >
> > > The Payara NetBeans IDE Plugins releases are plain plugins but also
> > > bundles of Paraya and NetBeans called
> > > 'PayaraPlugins.1.6.with.Apache.NetBeans.IDE' (there are bundles for
> > > Apache NetBeans 9 and Apache NetBeans 10).
> > >
> > > This seems to be against the provisions at
> > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#products
> > >
> > > The resulting bundle is called 'Apache NetBeans 10', there is nothing
> > > to let users know this is a separate product.
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and
> more!
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:40 PM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > For the records, the License FAQ explicitly clarifies the "Powered
> by"
> > > > et al vs. TradeMarks:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Antonio
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > El 03/01/2019 a las 16:32, Antonio escribió:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > "Powered by Spark" may be a good example for us:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://spark.apache.org/powered-by.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Quoting:
> > > > >
> > > > > ____
> > > > > Names like “Spark BigCoProduct” are not OK, as are names including
> > > > > “Spark” in general. The above links, however, describe some
> exceptions,
> > > > > like for names such as “BigCoProduct, powered by Apache Spark” or
> > > > > “BigCoProduct for Apache Spark”.
> > > > > ____
> > > > >
> > > > > Feliz Año,
> > > > > Antonio
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > El 03/01/2019 a las 14:09, Emilian Bold escribió:
> > > > >> Apache has a 'Powered by' program which seems a good fit for the
> > > NetBeans
> > > > >> Platform.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --emi
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 14:52, Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Hi all,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> We should get Apache NetBeans added to the list of ASF
> Trademarks at
> > > > >>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list/ (NetBeans is
> already a
> > > > >>> tracermark of Apache, isn't it?). We should also mention that
> Apache
> > > > >>> NetBeans is a trademark of the ASF at the footer of all web
> pages in
> > > our
> > > > >>> site.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> As we all there's a great ecosystem of apps built on top of the
> > > NetBeans
> > > > >>> Platform, and I think it could be good to acknowledge and promote
> > > this.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I don't think something like "Built on Top of the Apache NetBeans
> > > > >>> Platform" is contrary to the ASF tracemark policies.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Cheers,
> > > > >>> Antonio
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> El 03/01/2019 a las 12:04, Bertrand Delacretaz escribió:
> > > > >>>> Hi,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:22 AM Emilian Bold <
> > > emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache
> > > trademarks
> > > > >>>>> pages?...
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> If you keep it minimal I think it's good - you probably just
> need
> > > 2-3
> > > > >>>> good examples of naming for the types of things that people are
> > > doing
> > > > >>>> with NetBeans.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> And of course point to the ASF trademarks pages and avoid
> > > duplicating
> > > > >>>> their information.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> But that's a decision for this PPMC to make - whoever does the
> work
> > > > >>>> gets to decide, and that's not me ;-)
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> -Bertrand
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ---------
> > > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > >>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/
> Mailing+lists
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ---------
> > > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/
> Mailing+lists
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> --
> > > > >> --emi
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

I think it is dangerous from a legal standpoint for the (P)PMC to give
further interpretation on what Apache wants. The Apache page is quite
clear.

We don't even need a page, but at most our own page should only be a
single link to that page. We don't want to give conflicting
information and then allow downstream users claim they were just
following the NetBeans (P)PMC recommendation. We also have to keep in
sync our page if / when the Apache page changes.

PS: Also note that the Payara redistributed Apache NetBeans 10 bundle
has a CDDL and GPL w/ CPE dual license (there's a NETBEANS_LICENSE
file with the Apache License 2.0 content). Not sure what to make of
this, which part is covered by what, etc.

--emi

http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 2:04 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> Yes. And didn’t know about this. Would be great if you’d take the lead and
> put some basic content together on the Wiki as a starting point around
> this, with the ultimate aim of having that on netbeans.apache.org. Or else
> I will do so during this week — i.e., a summary of the discussions re
> branding, bundling, references to apache.org and our own specificities.
>
> Gj
>
> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > And to give an example of NetBeans bundling:
> > https://github.com/payara/ecosystem-netbeans-plugin/releases
> >
> > The Payara NetBeans IDE Plugins releases are plain plugins but also
> > bundles of Paraya and NetBeans called
> > 'PayaraPlugins.1.6.with.Apache.NetBeans.IDE' (there are bundles for
> > Apache NetBeans 9 and Apache NetBeans 10).
> >
> > This seems to be against the provisions at
> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#products
> >
> > The resulting bundle is called 'Apache NetBeans 10', there is nothing
> > to let users know this is a separate product.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:40 PM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > For the records, the License FAQ explicitly clarifies the "Powered by"
> > > et al vs. TradeMarks:
> > >
> > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Antonio
> > >
> > >
> > > El 03/01/2019 a las 16:32, Antonio escribió:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > "Powered by Spark" may be a good example for us:
> > > >
> > > > https://spark.apache.org/powered-by.html
> > > >
> > > > Quoting:
> > > >
> > > > ____
> > > > Names like “Spark BigCoProduct” are not OK, as are names including
> > > > “Spark” in general. The above links, however, describe some exceptions,
> > > > like for names such as “BigCoProduct, powered by Apache Spark” or
> > > > “BigCoProduct for Apache Spark”.
> > > > ____
> > > >
> > > > Feliz Año,
> > > > Antonio
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > El 03/01/2019 a las 14:09, Emilian Bold escribió:
> > > >> Apache has a 'Powered by' program which seems a good fit for the
> > NetBeans
> > > >> Platform.
> > > >>
> > > >> --emi
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 14:52, Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Hi all,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We should get Apache NetBeans added to the list of ASF Trademarks at
> > > >>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list/ (NetBeans is already a
> > > >>> tracermark of Apache, isn't it?). We should also mention that Apache
> > > >>> NetBeans is a trademark of the ASF at the footer of all web pages in
> > our
> > > >>> site.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As we all there's a great ecosystem of apps built on top of the
> > NetBeans
> > > >>> Platform, and I think it could be good to acknowledge and promote
> > this.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I don't think something like "Built on Top of the Apache NetBeans
> > > >>> Platform" is contrary to the ASF tracemark policies.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Cheers,
> > > >>> Antonio
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> El 03/01/2019 a las 12:04, Bertrand Delacretaz escribió:
> > > >>>> Hi,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:22 AM Emilian Bold <
> > emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache
> > trademarks
> > > >>>>> pages?...
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> If you keep it minimal I think it's good - you probably just need
> > 2-3
> > > >>>> good examples of naming for the types of things that people are
> > doing
> > > >>>> with NetBeans.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> And of course point to the ASF trademarks pages and avoid
> > duplicating
> > > >>>> their information.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> But that's a decision for this PPMC to make - whoever does the work
> > > >>>> gets to decide, and that's not me ;-)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -Bertrand
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------
> > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > >>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------
> > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >>>
> > > >>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >> --emi
> > > >>
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>]

Yes. And didn’t know about this. Would be great if you’d take the lead and
put some basic content together on the Wiki as a starting point around
this, with the ultimate aim of having that on netbeans.apache.org. Or else
I will do so during this week — i.e., a summary of the discussions re
branding, bundling, references to apache.org and our own specificities.

Gj

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> And to give an example of NetBeans bundling:
> https://github.com/payara/ecosystem-netbeans-plugin/releases
>
> The Payara NetBeans IDE Plugins releases are plain plugins but also
> bundles of Paraya and NetBeans called
> 'PayaraPlugins.1.6.with.Apache.NetBeans.IDE' (there are bundles for
> Apache NetBeans 9 and Apache NetBeans 10).
>
> This seems to be against the provisions at
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#products
>
> The resulting bundle is called 'Apache NetBeans 10', there is nothing
> to let users know this is a separate product.
>
> --emi
>
> http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!
>
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:40 PM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> >
> > For the records, the License FAQ explicitly clarifies the "Powered by"
> > et al vs. TradeMarks:
> >
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Antonio
> >
> >
> > El 03/01/2019 a las 16:32, Antonio escribió:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > "Powered by Spark" may be a good example for us:
> > >
> > > https://spark.apache.org/powered-by.html
> > >
> > > Quoting:
> > >
> > > ____
> > > Names like “Spark BigCoProduct” are not OK, as are names including
> > > “Spark” in general. The above links, however, describe some exceptions,
> > > like for names such as “BigCoProduct, powered by Apache Spark” or
> > > “BigCoProduct for Apache Spark”.
> > > ____
> > >
> > > Feliz Año,
> > > Antonio
> > >
> > >
> > > El 03/01/2019 a las 14:09, Emilian Bold escribió:
> > >> Apache has a 'Powered by' program which seems a good fit for the
> NetBeans
> > >> Platform.
> > >>
> > >> --emi
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 14:52, Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi all,
> > >>>
> > >>> We should get Apache NetBeans added to the list of ASF Trademarks at
> > >>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list/ (NetBeans is already a
> > >>> tracermark of Apache, isn't it?). We should also mention that Apache
> > >>> NetBeans is a trademark of the ASF at the footer of all web pages in
> our
> > >>> site.
> > >>>
> > >>> As we all there's a great ecosystem of apps built on top of the
> NetBeans
> > >>> Platform, and I think it could be good to acknowledge and promote
> this.
> > >>>
> > >>> I don't think something like "Built on Top of the Apache NetBeans
> > >>> Platform" is contrary to the ASF tracemark policies.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers,
> > >>> Antonio
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> El 03/01/2019 a las 12:04, Bertrand Delacretaz escribió:
> > >>>> Hi,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:22 AM Emilian Bold <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache
> trademarks
> > >>>>> pages?...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> If you keep it minimal I think it's good - you probably just need
> 2-3
> > >>>> good examples of naming for the types of things that people are
> doing
> > >>>> with NetBeans.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And of course point to the ASF trademarks pages and avoid
> duplicating
> > >>>> their information.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> But that's a decision for this PPMC to make - whoever does the work
> > >>>> gets to decide, and that's not me ;-)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -Bertrand
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > >>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >>>
> > >>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >> --emi
> > >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

And to give an example of NetBeans bundling:
https://github.com/payara/ecosystem-netbeans-plugin/releases

The Payara NetBeans IDE Plugins releases are plain plugins but also
bundles of Paraya and NetBeans called
'PayaraPlugins.1.6.with.Apache.NetBeans.IDE' (there are bundles for
Apache NetBeans 9 and Apache NetBeans 10).

This seems to be against the provisions at
https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#products

The resulting bundle is called 'Apache NetBeans 10', there is nothing
to let users know this is a separate product.

--emi

http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 5:40 PM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
>
> For the records, the License FAQ explicitly clarifies the "Powered by"
> et al vs. TradeMarks:
>
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes
>
> Cheers,
> Antonio
>
>
> El 03/01/2019 a las 16:32, Antonio escribió:
> > Hi,
> >
> > "Powered by Spark" may be a good example for us:
> >
> > https://spark.apache.org/powered-by.html
> >
> > Quoting:
> >
> > ____
> > Names like “Spark BigCoProduct” are not OK, as are names including
> > “Spark” in general. The above links, however, describe some exceptions,
> > like for names such as “BigCoProduct, powered by Apache Spark” or
> > “BigCoProduct for Apache Spark”.
> > ____
> >
> > Feliz Año,
> > Antonio
> >
> >
> > El 03/01/2019 a las 14:09, Emilian Bold escribió:
> >> Apache has a 'Powered by' program which seems a good fit for the NetBeans
> >> Platform.
> >>
> >> --emi
> >>
> >> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 14:52, Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> We should get Apache NetBeans added to the list of ASF Trademarks at
> >>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list/ (NetBeans is already a
> >>> tracermark of Apache, isn't it?). We should also mention that Apache
> >>> NetBeans is a trademark of the ASF at the footer of all web pages in our
> >>> site.
> >>>
> >>> As we all there's a great ecosystem of apps built on top of the NetBeans
> >>> Platform, and I think it could be good to acknowledge and promote this.
> >>>
> >>> I don't think something like "Built on Top of the Apache NetBeans
> >>> Platform" is contrary to the ASF tracemark policies.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Antonio
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> El 03/01/2019 a las 12:04, Bertrand Delacretaz escribió:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:22 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache trademarks
> >>>>> pages?...
> >>>>
> >>>> If you keep it minimal I think it's good - you probably just need 2-3
> >>>> good examples of naming for the types of things that people are doing
> >>>> with NetBeans.
> >>>>
> >>>> And of course point to the ASF trademarks pages and avoid duplicating
> >>>> their information.
> >>>>
> >>>> But that's a decision for this PPMC to make - whoever does the work
> >>>> gets to decide, and that's not me ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>> -Bertrand
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >>>
> >>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >> --emi
> >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Antonio <an...@vieiro.net>]

For the records, the License FAQ explicitly clarifies the "Powered by" 
et al vs. TradeMarks:

http://www.apache.org/foundation/license-faq.html#Name-changes

Cheers,
Antonio


El 03/01/2019 a las 16:32, Antonio escribió:
> Hi,
> 
> "Powered by Spark" may be a good example for us:
> 
> https://spark.apache.org/powered-by.html
> 
> Quoting:
> 
> ____
> Names like “Spark BigCoProduct” are not OK, as are names including 
> “Spark” in general. The above links, however, describe some exceptions, 
> like for names such as “BigCoProduct, powered by Apache Spark” or 
> “BigCoProduct for Apache Spark”.
> ____
> 
> Feliz Año,
> Antonio
> 
> 
> El 03/01/2019 a las 14:09, Emilian Bold escribió:
>> Apache has a 'Powered by' program which seems a good fit for the NetBeans
>> Platform.
>>
>> --emi
>>
>> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 14:52, Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> We should get Apache NetBeans added to the list of ASF Trademarks at
>>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list/ (NetBeans is already a
>>> tracermark of Apache, isn't it?). We should also mention that Apache
>>> NetBeans is a trademark of the ASF at the footer of all web pages in our
>>> site.
>>>
>>> As we all there's a great ecosystem of apps built on top of the NetBeans
>>> Platform, and I think it could be good to acknowledge and promote this.
>>>
>>> I don't think something like "Built on Top of the Apache NetBeans
>>> Platform" is contrary to the ASF tracemark policies.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Antonio
>>>
>>>
>>> El 03/01/2019 a las 12:04, Bertrand Delacretaz escribió:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:22 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache trademarks
>>>>> pages?...
>>>>
>>>> If you keep it minimal I think it's good - you probably just need 2-3
>>>> good examples of naming for the types of things that people are doing
>>>> with NetBeans.
>>>>
>>>> And of course point to the ASF trademarks pages and avoid duplicating
>>>> their information.
>>>>
>>>> But that's a decision for this PPMC to make - whoever does the work
>>>> gets to decide, and that's not me ;-)
>>>>
>>>> -Bertrand
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>> --emi
>>

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Antonio <an...@vieiro.net>]

Hi,

"Powered by Spark" may be a good example for us:

https://spark.apache.org/powered-by.html

Quoting:

____
Names like “Spark BigCoProduct” are not OK, as are names including 
“Spark” in general. The above links, however, describe some exceptions, 
like for names such as “BigCoProduct, powered by Apache Spark” or 
“BigCoProduct for Apache Spark”.
____

Feliz Año,
Antonio


El 03/01/2019 a las 14:09, Emilian Bold escribió:
> Apache has a 'Powered by' program which seems a good fit for the NetBeans
> Platform.
> 
> --emi
> 
> On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 14:52, Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>>
>> We should get Apache NetBeans added to the list of ASF Trademarks at
>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list/ (NetBeans is already a
>> tracermark of Apache, isn't it?). We should also mention that Apache
>> NetBeans is a trademark of the ASF at the footer of all web pages in our
>> site.
>>
>> As we all there's a great ecosystem of apps built on top of the NetBeans
>> Platform, and I think it could be good to acknowledge and promote this.
>>
>> I don't think something like "Built on Top of the Apache NetBeans
>> Platform" is contrary to the ASF tracemark policies.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Antonio
>>
>>
>> El 03/01/2019 a las 12:04, Bertrand Delacretaz escribió:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:22 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache trademarks
>>>> pages?...
>>>
>>> If you keep it minimal I think it's good - you probably just need 2-3
>>> good examples of naming for the types of things that people are doing
>>> with NetBeans.
>>>
>>> And of course point to the ASF trademarks pages and avoid duplicating
>>> their information.
>>>
>>> But that's a decision for this PPMC to make - whoever does the work
>>> gets to decide, and that's not me ;-)
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
>>
>> --
> --emi
> 

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

Apache has a 'Powered by' program which seems a good fit for the NetBeans
Platform.

--emi

On Thu, 3 Jan 2019 at 14:52, Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> We should get Apache NetBeans added to the list of ASF Trademarks at
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list/ (NetBeans is already a
> tracermark of Apache, isn't it?). We should also mention that Apache
> NetBeans is a trademark of the ASF at the footer of all web pages in our
> site.
>
> As we all there's a great ecosystem of apps built on top of the NetBeans
> Platform, and I think it could be good to acknowledge and promote this.
>
> I don't think something like "Built on Top of the Apache NetBeans
> Platform" is contrary to the ASF tracemark policies.
>
> Cheers,
> Antonio
>
>
> El 03/01/2019 a las 12:04, Bertrand Delacretaz escribió:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:22 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache trademarks
> >> pages?...
> >
> > If you keep it minimal I think it's good - you probably just need 2-3
> > good examples of naming for the types of things that people are doing
> > with NetBeans.
> >
> > And of course point to the ASF trademarks pages and avoid duplicating
> > their information.
> >
> > But that's a decision for this PPMC to make - whoever does the work
> > gets to decide, and that's not me ;-)
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
> --
--emi

Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Antonio <an...@vieiro.net>]

Hi all,

We should get Apache NetBeans added to the list of ASF Trademarks at 
https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/list/ (NetBeans is already a 
tracermark of Apache, isn't it?). We should also mention that Apache 
NetBeans is a trademark of the ASF at the footer of all web pages in our 
site.

As we all there's a great ecosystem of apps built on top of the NetBeans 
Platform, and I think it could be good to acknowledge and promote this.

I don't think something like "Built on Top of the Apache NetBeans 
Platform" is contrary to the ASF tracemark policies.

Cheers,
Antonio


El 03/01/2019 a las 12:04, Bertrand Delacretaz escribió:
> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:22 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache trademarks
>> pages?...
> 
> If you keep it minimal I think it's good - you probably just need 2-3
> good examples of naming for the types of things that people are doing
> with NetBeans.
> 
> And of course point to the ASF trademarks pages and avoid duplicating
> their information.
> 
> But that's a decision for this PPMC to make - whoever does the work
> gets to decide, and that's not me ;-)
> 
> -Bertrand
> 
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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 11:22 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache trademarks
> pages?...

If you keep it minimal I think it's good - you probably just need 2-3
good examples of naming for the types of things that people are doing
with NetBeans.

And of course point to the ASF trademarks pages and avoid duplicating
their information.

But that's a decision for this PPMC to make - whoever does the work
gets to decide, and that's not me ;-)

-Bertrand

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Re: About the NetBeans brand and our trademark

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

Is it really wise to create a separate FAQ from the Apache trademarks
pages? I think that page is pretty clear on what Apache allows and
doesn't allow.

More importantly we should *read* those pages and understand as a
community (and at PPMC level) what the ASF wants and what our approach
should be when we see the trademark being used.

--emi

http://coolbeans.xyz/ - CoolBeans: An IDE for Java, JavaEE, PHP and more!

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 12:13 PM Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 4:32 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...we should be proactive about our trademark....
>
> Indeed. The simplest might be to create a FAQ about how people can use
> the Apache NetBeans name in specific cases, like creating their own
> installer or extension or creating an app built on NetBeans.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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>
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