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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org> on 2002/10/12 02:19:44 UTC
SubWiki (was: Re: svn 1.0 in 45 days)
On Fri, Oct 11, 2002 at 04:14:02PM -0700, Tom Lord wrote:
>...
> 1) Revision Control for Wikis
>
> Wikis are the future of blogging and many other internet
> mediated communications technologies. Revision control,
> pioneered by Twiki (I think) is commonly (and plausibly)
> believed to be an important feature.
>
> SVN repository performance characteristics are ideally
> suited for Wikis, because Wiki interaction typically
> consists of {simple selected files commit} and because we
> can safely expect to see increasingly huge and active wikis
> (hurray for {scalable operation}). {web integration} and
> {individual file query} are central to what Wikis do. The
> weaknesses of the svn client interface are immaterial to
> svn's application to wikis, because they are surely good
> enough as-is to be used as a back-end to wiki-apps.
Ha!
On this point, I very much agree. In fact, I agree so much, that I even went
and coded this some time ago:
http://subwiki.tigris.org/
http://svn.webdav.org/repos/projects/subwiki/trunk/
http://test.webdav.org/wiki/Welcome
I wouldn't even call it alpha code right now. You can't add a page except by
checking out the pages, doing 'svn add', and committing it back. After I get
unburied from some other work, I'll be doing that. And now that Mike got
ViewSVN support going, I'll be hooking that in, too. And then... :-)
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: SubWiki (was: Re: svn 1.0 in 45 days)
Posted by Tom Lord <lo...@regexps.com>.
The thing about Twiki is that it already has rev ctl hooks.
The other thing is that it is small and seamingly stable. It is
several years old and is used by professional development teams at
multiple companies.
-t
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Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:52:45 -0500
From: Brad Appleton <br...@bradapp.net>
Cc: gstein@lyra.org, dev@subversion.tigris.org
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On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 12:10:50AM -0700, Tom Lord wrote:
> Take Twiki (verify that it's free software). It's in perl and I
> remember someone (you?) having objection to perl. There's also
> a wiki of good repute or two in python (i forget what they're called).
There are several Wiki's in Java too. Chiki is one of them (and is OpenSource) and (I think) already knows how to use CVS.
--
Brad Appleton <br...@bradapp.net> http://www.bradapp.net/
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything
without losing your temper or your self-confidence."
-- Robert Frost
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Re: SubWiki (was: Re: svn 1.0 in 45 days)
Posted by Brad Appleton <br...@bradapp.net>.
On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 12:10:50AM -0700, Tom Lord wrote:
> Take Twiki (verify that it's free software). It's in perl and I
> remember someone (you?) having objection to perl. There's also
> a wiki of good repute or two in python (i forget what they're called).
There are several Wiki's in Java too. Chiki is one of them (and is OpenSource) and (I think) already knows how to use CVS.
--
Brad Appleton <br...@bradapp.net> http://www.bradapp.net/
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything
without losing your temper or your self-confidence."
-- Robert Frost
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Re: SubWiki
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Sun, Oct 13, 2002 at 09:55:51AM -0700, Tom Lord wrote:
> > I'm not sure why you suggest to "take" any of these others. Or to replace
> > their RCS hooks, or anything.
>
> > As I wrote above, I've *already* implemented a Wiki that
> > uses SVN
>
> I too am not thrilled with many of the details of Twiki. However,
> it's been around for years; appears to be quite stable; has many
> users; has been deployed commercially on multiple sites; is nicely
> extensible in perl; is small; has had lots of de facto usability
> testing; etc.
>
> Your wiki shows off some of what svn can do but Twiki not only has
> rev ctl features, it also has forms entry, fancy queries, fancy
> indexing, rudimentary topic renaming, etc.
Yup. But none of that bothers me. I started SubWiki for many reasons, and
a big chunk of that was to toss the crap code that most Wikis are and begin
from scratch. I really don't care that SubWiki is currently less featureful.
If somebody else wants to gut Twiki and insert SVN... more power to 'em. No
skin off my back.
Go ahead, Tom...
> Is there anything in the issue db that's critical for _this_
> application?
Nah, or I would have fixed it already to enable SubWiki.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: SubWiki (was: Re: svn 1.0 in 45 days)
Posted by Tom Lord <lo...@regexps.com>.
> I'm not sure why you suggest to "take" any of these others. Or to replace
> their RCS hooks, or anything.
> As I wrote above, I've *already* implemented a Wiki that
> uses SVN
I too am not thrilled with many of the details of Twiki. However,
it's been around for years; appears to be quite stable; has many
users; has been deployed commercially on multiple sites; is nicely
extensible in perl; is small; has had lots of de facto usability
testing; etc.
Your wiki shows off some of what svn can do but Twiki not only has
rev ctl features, it also has forms entry, fancy queries, fancy
indexing, rudimentary topic renaming, etc.
> Oh yah... there are definitely a lot of interesting
> avenues.
Damn straight.
I like the idea of a suite of web-based pda apps. Your calendar,
grocery list, contacts db, etc -- all on wiki-based web pages,
viewable and edittable with a browser. (Twiki has a calendar app, if
I recall correctly.)
Fancier clients could keep their own working copy and handle detached
updates. Twiki is tiny enough that clients can run a copy locally.
The whole thing could be commoditized, sort of like google-boxes.
Is there anything in the issue db that's critical for _this_
application?
-t
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Re: SubWiki (was: Re: svn 1.0 in 45 days)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Sat, Oct 12, 2002 at 12:10:50AM -0700, Tom Lord wrote:
>
> > On this point, I very much agree. In fact, I agree so much, that I even went
> > and coded this some time ago:
>
> http://subwiki.tigris.org/
> http://svn.webdav.org/repos/projects/subwiki/trunk/
> http://test.webdav.org/wiki/Welcome
>
> > I wouldn't even call it alpha code right now. You can't add a page except by
> > checking out the pages, doing 'svn add', and committing it back. After I get
> > unburied from some other work, I'll be doing that. And now that Mike got
> > ViewSVN support going, I'll be hooking that in, too. And then... :-)
>...
> Take Twiki (verify that it's free software). It's in perl and I
> remember someone (you?) having objection to perl.
I don't "object" to Perl. I just think it is a poor choice for most uses,
and I personally choose to use Python for as much as possible.
> There's also
> a wiki of good repute or two in python (i forget what they're called).
Piki, PikiePikie, MoinMoin, and many others.
> Twiki, at least, already has RCS hooks. Replace those with svn hooks.
> This should be trivial.
I'm not sure why you suggest to "take" any of these others. Or to replace
their RCS hooks, or anything.
As I wrote above, I've *already* implemented a Wiki that uses SVN for its
storage. A person can modify pages through the Wiki or through SVN itself.
You can browse the Wiki-fied content, the bare pages via a web browser (or
other DAV client), or through checking out the pages. etc etc.
> Start writing wiki extension modules that take advantage of svn's
> transactional nature. For example, a user filling out a form can
> result in changing, atomicly, a bunch of "correlated" files in the
> wiki.
Oh yah... there are definitely a lot of interesting avenues. I just haven't
had time to complete some of the basic SubWiki features. But the basic
architecture and features are there.
> This needs no feature of svn that isn't already there. Application of
> the resulting very flexible and very scalable framework can drive
> subsequent optimization efforts and clean-ups.
Sure.
> I think svn 1.0 is pretty much done.
I beg to differ. Look at our issue tracker. There are quite a few things
that (IMO) really need to be done for a 1.0 release.
We didn't even call our code "alpha" until we'd self-hosted for over 10
months. We aren't planning to call it "beta" until we drive out almost *all*
of the known bugs. And 1.0? After it "percolates" for a while in users
hands.
Personally, I think a version control system's #1 feature is "stability and
bug-free." I want to tell people, "hell ya, it's solid. just try and break
it. that thing is gonna be central to your development organization, and it
WILL NOT let you down."
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: SubWiki (was: Re: svn 1.0 in 45 days)
Posted by Tom Lord <lo...@regexps.com>.
> On this point, I very much agree. In fact, I agree so much, that I even went
> and coded this some time ago:
http://subwiki.tigris.org/
http://svn.webdav.org/repos/projects/subwiki/trunk/
http://test.webdav.org/wiki/Welcome
> I wouldn't even call it alpha code right now. You can't add a page except by
> checking out the pages, doing 'svn add', and committing it back. After I get
> unburied from some other work, I'll be doing that. And now that Mike got
> ViewSVN support going, I'll be hooking that in, too. And then... :-)
I did the same thing with `arch'. It would be a pain in the ass to
tune arch performance for Wiki demands. SVN is already there.
I think:
Take Twiki (verify that it's free software). It's in perl and I
remember someone (you?) having objection to perl. There's also
a wiki of good repute or two in python (i forget what they're called).
Twiki, at least, already has RCS hooks. Replace those with svn hooks.
This should be trivial.
Start writing wiki extension modules that take advantage of svn's
transactional nature. For example, a user filling out a form can
result in changing, atomicly, a bunch of "correlated" files in the
wiki.
This needs no feature of svn that isn't already there. Application of
the resulting very flexible and very scalable framework can drive
subsequent optimization efforts and clean-ups.
I think svn 1.0 is pretty much done.
-t
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