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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by Alex Schmelkin <al...@davanita.com> on 2000/02/28 21:37:03 UTC
[OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
I have an interesting problem that I'm hoping to solve with some guidance
from members of this great list:
We are unable to find qualified PERL/mod_perl developers. Our industry is
plagued with a shortage of _qualified_ developers, and every extra
restriction (like literacy in PERL/mod_perl) I place on our HR
guys/recruiters makes it that much harder to find the perfect programmer.
The programmer marketplace is abound with hordes of VB/ASP/SQL 7 guys (in
the NYC area where we are located). At the end of the day, no matter how
much I'd rather create websites for our clients using well planned and
executed mod_perl/Oracle solutions, if we can't find resources, then our
choice of development platform is reduced to just another *commodity*: to
stay in business, we'll be forced to switch to a platform for which we can
find qualified developers (namely IIS/ASP/VB/MSSQL).
I'm trying to compile some stats on the number of PERL/mod_perl developers
actually out there looking to work in fun, engaging, open-source
environments. What proportion of developers have the skills/acumen to be
mod_perl developers? How many developers consider themselves mod_perl
experts (probably limited to this list :)? Most programmer survey sites on
the net offer little insight here, and the vultures (recruiters) seem to
think there are very few to none located in the major Northeast cities of
the US. If this is true, our operations might be destined to be converted
into "yet another Microsoft shop" because that's the only kind of shop for
which we can find good resources. Open source evangelism aside, most
businesses are in business to make money, and if their choice of development
platform prevents them from doing that they'll either close shop or choose
another platform.
Does anyone have any suggestions? How do the other mod_perl shops out there
tackle the problem of so few people actually knowing mod_perl, let alone
having a solid background in PERL?
Thank you so much for any help you can provide.
-Alex
<d>
Alex Schmelkin
Davanita Design, LLC
contact --> http://alex.davanita.com
</d>
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Jeffrey W. Baker wrote:
> > I'm trying to compile some stats on the number of PERL/mod_perl developers
> > actually out there looking to work in fun, engaging, open-source
> > environments. What proportion of developers have the skills/acumen to be
> > mod_perl developers? How many developers consider themselves mod_perl
> > experts (probably limited to this list :)? Most programmer survey sites on
> > the net offer little insight here, and the vultures (recruiters) seem to
> > think there are very few to none located in the major Northeast cities of
> > the US. If this is true, our operations might be destined to be converted
> > into "yet another Microsoft shop" because that's the only kind of shop for
> > which we can find good resources. Open source evangelism aside, most
> > businesses are in business to make money, and if their choice of development
> > platform prevents them from doing that they'll either close shop or choose
> > another platform.
>
> I can't answer your population questions, but I would say that I am an
> expert in mod_perl. I hired two develoeprs who didn't know a whole hell
> of a lot about mod_perl, and I taught them all about it in five two-hour
> tutorials. Maybe you could hire some smart guys and teach them the way
> of truth.
You hit the nail on the head there. I know when I started work I just used
whatever tools the company I worked for used (all Microsoft shop pretty
much). Unfortunately this shortage still applies to contractors, who you're
not likely to want to re-train.
--
<Matt/>
Details: FastNet Software Ltd - XML, Perl, Databases.
Tagline: High Performance Web Solutions
Web Sites: http://come.to/fastnet http://sergeant.org
Available for Consultancy, Contracts and Training.
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist in
Buffalo NY?)
Posted by Robert Monical <rm...@destinations.com>.
Hello,
Looking for a mod_perl developer in Buffalo.
The site is <http://www.destinations.com/>www.destinations.com. The booking
engine bit is mod_perl.
Several new products are in the pipeline.
Please respond to rmonical@destinations.com.
Thanks
Have a great day!
--Robert Monical
--Director of CRM Development
--rmonical@destinations.com
--Work: 206-855-8222
"The Truth is Out There"
Re: [mod_perl audio tutorials]
Posted by "Jeffrey W. Baker" <jw...@acm.org>.
On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Bakki Kudva wrote:
> Jeffrey W. Baker wrote on Tuesday, April 04, 2000 12:04 PM:
>
> > Consider just this once that HTML is not the preferred way to deliver this
> > kind of content. Perhaps the tutorial could be in the form of an MP3
> > file, with instructions to turn to the next slide periodically. The slide
> > could be HTML scaffolds around an image. Anyway, this has the advantage
> > of following standards and also allowing the user the freedom to move the
> > audio stream and slides independently.
>
> I like the idea of using MP3 but not being MP3 savy wan't sure that clients
> support streaming MP3. Also the encoding would have to be at less than
> 33kbps so it will play properly over modem lines. The slide/chapter info
> could be encoded into the ID3 tags and users could request any slide from
> the playlist. I'll have to dig a bit into Mike Oliphant's Grip or LAME to do
> the encoding. I am wondering if icecast software would work well for this
> application.
For voice, you can use very low bitrates with MP3 encoding and still get
acceptable output. The other nice thing about MP3 is that the clients
don't HAVE to stream it. They can darn well save it locally if that is
more convenient. However, all clients that I have used do support
streaming.
-jwb
Re: [mod_perl audio tutorials]
Posted by Bakki Kudva <ba...@ncinter.net>.
Sander van Zoest wrote on Wednesday, April 05, 2000 2:45 AM:
> His article works, but isn't entirely accurate as I have already e-mailed
> Lincoln Stein about the issues. He claimed to discuss them in his follow
up
> article.
Could you please email me a copy of your msg to Lincoln about the
inaccuracies?
> Most players support m3u's and icecast. I would suggest encoding the audio
> in either 24kbps. (33kbps isn't a valid bitrate, you probably meant
32kbps)
I did mean 32kbps. How low can you go to get acceptable quality for just
voice? Most information in voice is less than 3,500Hz or so I think. If you
sampled that at atleast 7-8 KHz it would represent a bit rate of 64KHz
without compression.
> I would suggest just creating a bunch of m3u files that can then be played
> while looking at the slides. icecast is usually used for radio like
streaming,
> not on-demand streams.
This means you can have a link to the appropriate m3u file on the html page
containing the corresponding slide correct? So with this approach the only
thing you won't have is automatic advance to the next slide when audio
finishes, which should be no big deal. The user still can manually navigate
thro the slides. This is easy enough that I can set up a couple of trial
slides at my web site.
Bakki Kudva
Navaco
(Electronic Document Management Solutions)
phone: (814) 833-2592
fax: (603) 947-5747
http://www.navaco.com/
Re: [mod_perl audio tutorials]
Posted by Sander van Zoest <sa...@vanZoest.com>.
On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Stas Bekman wrote:
> > > Consider just this once that HTML is not the preferred way to deliver this
> > > kind of content. Perhaps the tutorial could be in the form of an MP3
> > > file, with instructions to turn to the next slide periodically. The slide
> > > could be HTML scaffolds around an image. Anyway, this has the advantage
> > > of following standards and also allowing the user the freedom to move the
> > > audio stream and slides independently.
> > I like the idea of using MP3 but not being MP3 savy wan't sure that clients
> > support streaming MP3. Also the encoding would have to be at less than
> > 33kbps so it will play properly over modem lines. The slide/chapter info
> > could be encoded into the ID3 tags and users could request any slide from
> > the playlist.
> See the last TPJ article by Lincoln Stein about mp3/streaming/icecast and
> mod_perl.
His article works, but isn't entirely accurate as I have already e-mailed
Lincoln Stein about the issues. He claimed to discuss them in his follow up
article.
Most players support m3u's and icecast. I would suggest encoding the audio
in either 24kbps. (33kbps isn't a valid bitrate, you probably meant 32kbps)
I would suggest just creating a bunch of m3u files that can then be played
while looking at the slides. icecast is usually used for radio like streaming,
not on-demand streams.
> > I'll have to dig a bit into Mike Oliphant's Grip or LAME to do
> > the encoding. I am wondering if icecast software would work well for this
> > application.
> Grip doesn't do the encoding it's merely a wav reader plus a nice
> interface to the encoding tools.
Grip is an GTK interface on top of cdparanoia and lame/blade.
Cheers,
--
Sander van Zoest sander@vanzoest.com
High Geek http://www.vanZoest.com/
Re: [mod_perl audio tutorials]
Posted by Stas Bekman <sb...@stason.org>.
On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Bakki Kudva wrote:
> Jeffrey W. Baker wrote on Tuesday, April 04, 2000 12:04 PM:
>
> > Consider just this once that HTML is not the preferred way to deliver this
> > kind of content. Perhaps the tutorial could be in the form of an MP3
> > file, with instructions to turn to the next slide periodically. The slide
> > could be HTML scaffolds around an image. Anyway, this has the advantage
> > of following standards and also allowing the user the freedom to move the
> > audio stream and slides independently.
>
> I like the idea of using MP3 but not being MP3 savy wan't sure that clients
> support streaming MP3. Also the encoding would have to be at less than
> 33kbps so it will play properly over modem lines. The slide/chapter info
> could be encoded into the ID3 tags and users could request any slide from
> the playlist. I'll have to dig a bit into Mike Oliphant's Grip or LAME to do
> the encoding. I am wondering if icecast software would work well for this
> application.
See the last TPJ article by Lincoln Stein about mp3/streaming/icecast and
mod_perl.
Grip doesn't do the encoding it's merely a wav reader plus a nice
interface to the encoding tools.
______________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman | JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ | mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide/
mailto:stas@stason.org | http://perl.org http://stason.org/TULARC/
http://singlesheaven.com| http://perlmonth.com http://sourcegarden.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [mod_perl audio tutorials]
Posted by Bakki Kudva <ba...@ncinter.net>.
Jeffrey W. Baker wrote on Tuesday, April 04, 2000 12:04 PM:
> Consider just this once that HTML is not the preferred way to deliver this
> kind of content. Perhaps the tutorial could be in the form of an MP3
> file, with instructions to turn to the next slide periodically. The slide
> could be HTML scaffolds around an image. Anyway, this has the advantage
> of following standards and also allowing the user the freedom to move the
> audio stream and slides independently.
I like the idea of using MP3 but not being MP3 savy wan't sure that clients
support streaming MP3. Also the encoding would have to be at less than
33kbps so it will play properly over modem lines. The slide/chapter info
could be encoded into the ID3 tags and users could request any slide from
the playlist. I'll have to dig a bit into Mike Oliphant's Grip or LAME to do
the encoding. I am wondering if icecast software would work well for this
application.
bakki
>
Bakki Kudva
Navaco
(Electronic Document Management Solutions)
phone: (814) 833-2592
fax: (603) 947-5747
http://www.navaco.com/
Re: [mod_perl audio tutorials] (was Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl
developers (do they exist?)
Posted by "Jeffrey W. Baker" <jw...@acm.org>.
On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Bakki Kudva wrote:
> Stas Bekman wrote on Tuesday, April 04, 2000 2:59 AM :
>
> > Well, I've just installed the G2 Player and tried it. Yes it's quite good.
> > May be you are right and it would work. So are you going to give it a
> > whirl?
>
> I'd love to give it a try. Couple of starting points.
>
> 1. Conferences will not be a good source for the material. So we'll have to
> find an alternative. We may have to compile this incrementally, slide by
> slide. The slides/audio files can be created by the author, (who can be the
> 'guru'? Would you have the time to do it?) or I can have some one just read
> from a script.
>
> 2. I am not sure what the SUN site uses at the server side. We can do ours
> using mod_perl ofcourse unless something like it already exists. I like the
> "last slide", "next slide" buttons to which we may be able to add "last
> chapter#", "next chapter#" buttons to make the presentation more
> interactive. With some help I would be willing to roll this out myself. My
> web site is at Verio. So mod_perl won't be possible there, though I would
> have loved to host the site there. If we can do it with CGI may be it can be
> hosted there. The simplest way to put audio would have been with the
> <bgsound> tag and .wav, or .au files. Unfortunately this works only for IE.
> Don't know if Netscape v4.72 supports it yet. Any ideas here?
Looking through the w3c site, I don't see the element <bgsound>
*anywhere*. Hopefully Netscape does not and will never support such an
abomination.
Consider just this once that HTML is not the preferred way to deliver this
kind of content. Perhaps the tutorial could be in the form of an MP3
file, with instructions to turn to the next slide periodically. The slide
could be HTML scaffolds around an image. Anyway, this has the advantage
of following standards and also allowing the user the freedom to move the
audio stream and slides independently.
-jwb
Re: [mod_perl audio tutorials] (was Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Bakki Kudva <ba...@ncinter.net>.
Stas Bekman wrote on Tuesday, April 04, 2000 2:59 AM :
> Well, I've just installed the G2 Player and tried it. Yes it's quite good.
> May be you are right and it would work. So are you going to give it a
> whirl?
I'd love to give it a try. Couple of starting points.
1. Conferences will not be a good source for the material. So we'll have to
find an alternative. We may have to compile this incrementally, slide by
slide. The slides/audio files can be created by the author, (who can be the
'guru'? Would you have the time to do it?) or I can have some one just read
from a script.
2. I am not sure what the SUN site uses at the server side. We can do ours
using mod_perl ofcourse unless something like it already exists. I like the
"last slide", "next slide" buttons to which we may be able to add "last
chapter#", "next chapter#" buttons to make the presentation more
interactive. With some help I would be willing to roll this out myself. My
web site is at Verio. So mod_perl won't be possible there, though I would
have loved to host the site there. If we can do it with CGI may be it can be
hosted there. The simplest way to put audio would have been with the
<bgsound> tag and .wav, or .au files. Unfortunately this works only for IE.
Don't know if Netscape v4.72 supports it yet. Any ideas here?
bakki
Bakki Kudva
Navaco
(Electronic Document Management Solutions)
phone: (814) 833-2592
fax: (603) 947-5747
http://www.navaco.com/
[mod_perl audio tutorials] (was Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Stas Bekman <sb...@stason.org>.
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Bakki Kudva wrote:
> > If I understand correctly the handouts and possible audio/video records
> > belong to the host of the conference. Therefore you should talk to them
> > about this issue. It can be ORA, Camelot or any other conference
> > organizer.
>
> In that case they would have little incentive to release this material as
> they are in the business of conducting training and tutorials.
That's right
> > Another possibility is to organize a training session which will be hosted
> > by you for example and then you will be able to make the recording with
> > the only permission of the speakers.
> >
> > Of course if your intention is to make money by selling the recordings,
> > you will have to pay a certain percentage to the "artists".
>
> This is not my line of business and so I wasn't thinking of this as a
> for-profit venture. It was more of a community service project in my mind.
> However a nominal charge to recover production costs, (specially if CD-ROMs
> are pressed) speaker's fees etc might be ok. The whole point was to make a
> tutorial available to "the rest of us" and promote further use of mod_perl.
> I wasn't personally planning on profiting from this other than the learning
> experience at the 'feet of the gurus' :)
I've assumed that you didn't want to make a profit, I just said 'if...' :)
> > BTW, I think that if you are serious about doing this project, I believe
> > that the only way to do that is in the video format. It's hard to imagine
> > the slide and see where the speaker points to with his laser on the audio
> > recording. Audio format is fine for keynotes, but not for tutorials.
>
> I used to feel the same way until I saw the SUN webcasts and Bruce Eckel's
> "Thinking in Java" course. The slides/audio presentation works very well
> over low bandwidth connections and would be cheaper to setup than a
> streaming video server. Did you check out the links I had in my original
> post? Just imaging that you are in a presentation in a darkened room where
> you can't see the speaker :-)
Well, I've just installed the G2 Player and tried it. Yes it's quite good.
May be you are right and it would work. So are you going to give it a
whirl?
______________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman | JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ | mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide/
mailto:stas@stason.org | http://perl.org http://stason.org/TULARC/
http://singlesheaven.com| http://perlmonth.com http://sourcegarden.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Bakki Kudva <ba...@ncinter.net>.
> If I understand correctly the handouts and possible audio/video records
> belong to the host of the conference. Therefore you should talk to them
> about this issue. It can be ORA, Camelot or any other conference
> organizer.
In that case they would have little incentive to release this material as
they are in the business of conducting training and tutorials.
> Another possibility is to organize a training session which will be hosted
> by you for example and then you will be able to make the recording with
> the only permission of the speakers.
>
> Of course if your intention is to make money by selling the recordings,
> you will have to pay a certain percentage to the "artists".
This is not my line of business and so I wasn't thinking of this as a
for-profit venture. It was more of a community service project in my mind.
However a nominal charge to recover production costs, (specially if CD-ROMs
are pressed) speaker's fees etc might be ok. The whole point was to make a
tutorial available to "the rest of us" and promote further use of mod_perl.
I wasn't personally planning on profiting from this other than the learning
experience at the 'feet of the gurus' :)
> BTW, I think that if you are serious about doing this project, I believe
> that the only way to do that is in the video format. It's hard to imagine
> the slide and see where the speaker points to with his laser on the audio
> recording. Audio format is fine for keynotes, but not for tutorials.
I used to feel the same way until I saw the SUN webcasts and Bruce Eckel's
"Thinking in Java" course. The slides/audio presentation works very well
over low bandwidth connections and would be cheaper to setup than a
streaming video server. Did you check out the links I had in my original
post? Just imaging that you are in a presentation in a darkened room where
you can't see the speaker :-)
bakki
Bakki Kudva
Navaco
(Electronic Document Management Solutions)
phone: (814) 833-2592
fax: (603) 947-5747
http://www.navaco.com/
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Stas Bekman <sb...@stason.org>.
> > > My suggestion would be to capture one of two of these tutorial sessions
> on
> > > audio tape(assuming employer consent), edit and sync them to a bunch of
> HTML
> > > slides and put the whole shebang on the Net...preferably right next to
> Stas'
> > > great guide. Some nifty examples of this are at...
> >
> > Hmm, that's what ORA did at the last Perl conference, although not with
> > mod_perl talks... They have prepared the audio/video recording of the most
> > popular sessions and made them available to the public. Not for free of
> > course.
> >
> > You probably could have done the same at the ApacheCon, but it's over
> > already. Your next chance is the summer's OpenSource conference in
> > Monterey and the autumn's next ApacheCon in London.
>
> As I recall you gave the talk on mod_perl. Would you consent to have your
> tutorial session recorded for this purpose? Any other organizational
> permissions needed? I wonder if everything at the OpenSource conference
> becomes O'Reilly's copyright.
If I understand correctly the handouts and possible audio/video records
belong to the host of the conference. Therefore you should talk to them
about this issue. It can be ORA, Camelot or any other conference
organizer.
Another possibility is to organize a training session which will be hosted
by you for example and then you will be able to make the recording with
the only permission of the speakers.
Of course if your intention is to make money by selling the recordings,
you will have to pay a certain percentage to the "artists".
BTW, I think that if you are serious about doing this project, I believe
that the only way to do that is in the video format. It's hard to imagine
the slide and see where the speaker points to with his laser on the audio
recording. Audio format is fine for keynotes, but not for tutorials.
______________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman | JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ | mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide/
mailto:stas@stason.org | http://perl.org http://stason.org/TULARC/
http://singlesheaven.com| http://perlmonth.com http://sourcegarden.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Bakki Kudva <ba...@ncinter.net>.
Hi Stas,
> > My suggestion would be to capture one of two of these tutorial sessions
on
> > audio tape(assuming employer consent), edit and sync them to a bunch of
HTML
> > slides and put the whole shebang on the Net...preferably right next to
Stas'
> > great guide. Some nifty examples of this are at...
>
> Hmm, that's what ORA did at the last Perl conference, although not with
> mod_perl talks... They have prepared the audio/video recording of the most
> popular sessions and made them available to the public. Not for free of
> course.
>
> You probably could have done the same at the ApacheCon, but it's over
> already. Your next chance is the summer's OpenSource conference in
> Monterey and the autumn's next ApacheCon in London.
As I recall you gave the talk on mod_perl. Would you consent to have your
tutorial session recorded for this purpose? Any other organizational
permissions needed? I wonder if everything at the OpenSource conference
becomes O'Reilly's copyright.
bakki
Bakki Kudva
Navaco
(Electronic Document Management Solutions)
phone: (814) 833-2592
fax: (603) 947-5747
http://www.navaco.com/
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Andy Johnson <jo...@stens.com>.
Well, I don't know if the rest of you actually exist, but I do, and I'm
looking for a job!
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Bill Jones <bi...@fccj.org>.
Re: Subject line...
$_ = "mod_perl Developer";
print "If I Perl & I Apache, then am I a ",
(/^mod\_perl\sDeveloper$/) ? $_ : " ... ", "?\n";
HTH, -Sneex- :]
- FCCJ * 501 W State St * Jacksonville, Fl 32202 * 904/632-3089 -
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Stas Bekman <sb...@stason.org>.
> > "Jeffrey W. Baker" wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > > I can't answer your population questions, but I would say that I am an
> > > expert in mod_perl. I hired two develoeprs who didn't know a whole hell
> > > of a lot about mod_perl, and I taught them all about it in five two-hour
> > > tutorials. Maybe you could hire some smart guys and teach them the way
> > > of truth.
> </snip>
>
> I consider myself a perl/mod_perl newbie (have been for a long time, still
> trying to make that leap from "easy things are easy -> difficult things
> possible :-) I get the sense that more than a few of the gurus on this list
> go thro this tutorial path for new hirees to bring them up to speed.
>
> My suggestion would be to capture one of two of these tutorial sessions on
> audio tape(assuming employer consent), edit and sync them to a bunch of HTML
> slides and put the whole shebang on the Net...preferably right next to Stas'
> great guide. Some nifty examples of this are at...
Hmm, that's what ORA did at the last Perl conference, although not with
mod_perl talks... They have prepared the audio/video recording of the most
popular sessions and made them available to the public. Not for free of
course.
You probably could have done the same at the ApacheCon, but it's over
already. Your next chance is the summer's OpenSource conference in
Monterey and the autumn's next ApacheCon in London.
> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/webcasts/
> http://www.eckelobjects.com/TIJ2/index.html (Bruce Eckel's nice Java into
> tutorial in PDF with audio)
> I for one find these audio/slide presentations the next best thing to being
> there, less the huge expense of being there.
>
> I would be willing to contribute my time to this project, which will help me
> along my learning curve. I have a friend who is a TV producer (anyone
> remember Milton Friedman's Free to Choose series on PBS a long time ago?)
> from whom I might perhaps mooch some free audio digitizing/editing time (not
> a promise)...If none of this can be done on an 'open source' basis, as does
> Bruce Eckel, then we can do it on a cost recovery basis so the time
> contributed by various folks (especially the Gurus) could be re-imbursed
> from a reasonable subscription rate. This approach could serve the Perl
> community at large if we do other topics as well. I am very curious to find
> out the opinions of the folks on this list.
>
> Just my 2cents worth.
>
> bakki
>
> Bakki Kudva
> Navaco
> (Electronic Document Management Solutions)
> phone: (814) 833-2592
> fax: (603) 947-5747
> http://www.navaco.com/
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman | JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ | mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide/
mailto:stas@stason.org | http://perl.org http://stason.org/TULARC/
http://singlesheaven.com| http://perlmonth.com http://sourcegarden.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Bakki Kudva <ba...@ncinter.net>.
> "Jeffrey W. Baker" wrote:
<snip>
> > I can't answer your population questions, but I would say that I am an
> > expert in mod_perl. I hired two develoeprs who didn't know a whole hell
> > of a lot about mod_perl, and I taught them all about it in five two-hour
> > tutorials. Maybe you could hire some smart guys and teach them the way
> > of truth.
</snip>
I consider myself a perl/mod_perl newbie (have been for a long time, still
trying to make that leap from "easy things are easy -> difficult things
possible :-) I get the sense that more than a few of the gurus on this list
go thro this tutorial path for new hirees to bring them up to speed.
My suggestion would be to capture one of two of these tutorial sessions on
audio tape(assuming employer consent), edit and sync them to a bunch of HTML
slides and put the whole shebang on the Net...preferably right next to Stas'
great guide. Some nifty examples of this are at...
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/onlineTraining/webcasts/
http://www.eckelobjects.com/TIJ2/index.html (Bruce Eckel's nice Java into
tutorial in PDF with audio)
I for one find these audio/slide presentations the next best thing to being
there, less the huge expense of being there.
I would be willing to contribute my time to this project, which will help me
along my learning curve. I have a friend who is a TV producer (anyone
remember Milton Friedman's Free to Choose series on PBS a long time ago?)
from whom I might perhaps mooch some free audio digitizing/editing time (not
a promise)...If none of this can be done on an 'open source' basis, as does
Bruce Eckel, then we can do it on a cost recovery basis so the time
contributed by various folks (especially the Gurus) could be re-imbursed
from a reasonable subscription rate. This approach could serve the Perl
community at large if we do other topics as well. I am very curious to find
out the opinions of the folks on this list.
Just my 2cents worth.
bakki
Bakki Kudva
Navaco
(Electronic Document Management Solutions)
phone: (814) 833-2592
fax: (603) 947-5747
http://www.navaco.com/
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Francesc Guasch <fr...@etsetb.upc.es>.
"Jeffrey W. Baker" wrote:
>
> Alex Schmelkin wrote:
> >
> > I'm trying to compile some stats on the number of PERL/mod_perl developers
> > actually out there looking to work in fun, engaging, open-source
> > environments. What proportion of developers have the skills/acumen to be
> > mod_perl developers? How many developers consider themselves mod_perl
> > experts (probably limited to this list :)? Most programmer survey sites on
> > the net offer little insight here, and the vultures (recruiters) seem to
> > think there are very few to none located in the major Northeast cities of
> > the US. If this is true, our operations might be destined to be converted
> > into "yet another Microsoft shop" because that's the only kind of shop for
> > which we can find good resources. Open source evangelism aside, most
> > businesses are in business to make money, and if their choice of development
> > platform prevents them from doing that they'll either close shop or choose
> > another platform.
>
> I can't answer your population questions, but I would say that I am an
> expert in mod_perl. I hired two develoeprs who didn't know a whole hell
> of a lot about mod_perl, and I taught them all about it in five two-hour
> tutorials. Maybe you could hire some smart guys and teach them the way
> of truth.
I have similar experiences as Jeffrey. I picked up three engineers and
they learned mod_perl easily with my help :
- one knew a little of perl
- one was a java guy
- a html designer
All of them successfully learned and coded mod_perl. My path was give
them
the llama book, then showed them the HTML::Mason site and they started
doing
some tests, and in two weeks they were working in my project.
I did the object oriented part of the project, but they hack the modules
when necessary.
And I'm doing this again, I have two guys that never did perl before,
they are
computer science university students that know Visual Basic. They have
spent
a week reading the llama book and testing with active perl, this week
I'll
give them an apache server.
I think one project manager with deep knowledge of perl and good
training
skills can very easily work it out.
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
I agree with Jeffrey. Hire fast learners and train til well-done.
I have very rarely ever been able to find already experienced people but
I've found tons of smart people looking for a chance but need the right
teachers. I see a lot of talent wasted on young people who don't have good
mentors to guide their learning.
Yeah beginers make mistakes but so what. Saves time compare to doing it al
yourself and thats part of learning. Of course, onc your guys learn, keep
them happy and paid so they dont leave after being trained.
BTW, I know plenty of decent Perl developers in the NYC branch of the bank
I work for... I don't believe in geographical problems especially a
sardine can like Manhattan. I've now had experience recruiting for Perl in
US, London, and Asia and have gotten pretty good/similar results
eveywhere. It really does depend on money + environment and willing to
grow people than expect an instant fit.
The best thing about training people also is that it is hard to find
experienced people who aren't premaddonas (sp?). If you give aa young
guy/girl a chance to grow, they'll be hard working and happy for the
chance to grow and learn.
Later,
Gunther
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Sean Chittenden <se...@serverninjas.com>.
I hate me-too'ing a response, but this is a very viable solution
to your problem and something that I have done many times. To find
converts, I have found that looking for Java/MS SQL/Oracle people is a
good start, Java esp because Java is a relatively strict language and
forces the knowledge of OOP.
--SC
PS Launching into a discussion that compares languages is very OT,
so let's avoid that if possible.
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Jeffrey W. Baker wrote:
> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:48:54 -0800
> From: Jeffrey W. Baker <jw...@acm.org>
> To: Alex Schmelkin <al...@davanita.com>
> Cc: modperl@apache.org, Michael Piastro <sm...@davanita.com>
> Subject: Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
>
> Alex Schmelkin wrote:
> >
> > The programmer marketplace is abound with hordes of VB/ASP/SQL 7 guys (in
> > the NYC area where we are located). At the end of the day, no matter how
> > much I'd rather create websites for our clients using well planned and
> > executed mod_perl/Oracle solutions, if we can't find resources, then our
> > choice of development platform is reduced to just another *commodity*: to
> > stay in business, we'll be forced to switch to a platform for which we can
> > find qualified developers (namely IIS/ASP/VB/MSSQL).
>
> Have you tried offering more money? There isn't any such thing as a
> shortage, you know. You just aren't offering an attractive enough
> opportunity. You have to 1) offer benefits in the form of
> money/options/location, and 2) offer something exciting and fun to work
> on without any corporate baggage. Maybe you have all of those except
> location ;)
>
> > I'm trying to compile some stats on the number of PERL/mod_perl developers
> > actually out there looking to work in fun, engaging, open-source
> > environments. What proportion of developers have the skills/acumen to be
> > mod_perl developers? How many developers consider themselves mod_perl
> > experts (probably limited to this list :)? Most programmer survey sites on
> > the net offer little insight here, and the vultures (recruiters) seem to
> > think there are very few to none located in the major Northeast cities of
> > the US. If this is true, our operations might be destined to be converted
> > into "yet another Microsoft shop" because that's the only kind of shop for
> > which we can find good resources. Open source evangelism aside, most
> > businesses are in business to make money, and if their choice of development
> > platform prevents them from doing that they'll either close shop or choose
> > another platform.
>
> I can't answer your population questions, but I would say that I am an
> expert in mod_perl. I hired two develoeprs who didn't know a whole hell
> of a lot about mod_perl, and I taught them all about it in five two-hour
> tutorials. Maybe you could hire some smart guys and teach them the way
> of truth.
>
> Cheers,
> Jeffrey
>
--
Sean Chittenden
sean.chittenden@usa.net
(408)530-0001
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by "Jeffrey W. Baker" <jw...@acm.org>.
Alex Schmelkin wrote:
>
> The programmer marketplace is abound with hordes of VB/ASP/SQL 7 guys (in
> the NYC area where we are located). At the end of the day, no matter how
> much I'd rather create websites for our clients using well planned and
> executed mod_perl/Oracle solutions, if we can't find resources, then our
> choice of development platform is reduced to just another *commodity*: to
> stay in business, we'll be forced to switch to a platform for which we can
> find qualified developers (namely IIS/ASP/VB/MSSQL).
Have you tried offering more money? There isn't any such thing as a
shortage, you know. You just aren't offering an attractive enough
opportunity. You have to 1) offer benefits in the form of
money/options/location, and 2) offer something exciting and fun to work
on without any corporate baggage. Maybe you have all of those except
location ;)
> I'm trying to compile some stats on the number of PERL/mod_perl developers
> actually out there looking to work in fun, engaging, open-source
> environments. What proportion of developers have the skills/acumen to be
> mod_perl developers? How many developers consider themselves mod_perl
> experts (probably limited to this list :)? Most programmer survey sites on
> the net offer little insight here, and the vultures (recruiters) seem to
> think there are very few to none located in the major Northeast cities of
> the US. If this is true, our operations might be destined to be converted
> into "yet another Microsoft shop" because that's the only kind of shop for
> which we can find good resources. Open source evangelism aside, most
> businesses are in business to make money, and if their choice of development
> platform prevents them from doing that they'll either close shop or choose
> another platform.
I can't answer your population questions, but I would say that I am an
expert in mod_perl. I hired two develoeprs who didn't know a whole hell
of a lot about mod_perl, and I taught them all about it in five two-hour
tutorials. Maybe you could hire some smart guys and teach them the way
of truth.
Cheers,
Jeffrey
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Ilya Obshadko <il...@zhurnal.ru>.
Hello Alex,
AS> mod_perl developers? How many developers consider themselves mod_perl
AS> experts (probably limited to this list :)? Most programmer survey sites on
I really do ;)
AS> Does anyone have any suggestions? How do the other mod_perl shops out there
AS> tackle the problem of so few people actually knowing mod_perl, let alone
AS> having a solid background in PERL?
I think you can successfully use "remote programming" approach. I know
that there's many good perl/mod_perl programmers here in Moscow, that
can work as contractors.
Best regards,
Ilya mailto:ilya@zhurnal.ru
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Vlad Safronov <vl...@comptek.ru>.
Try to find the Perl developers in Russia/Ukraine.
>
> I have an interesting problem that I'm hoping to solve with some guidance
> from members of this great list:
>
> We are unable to find qualified PERL/mod_perl developers. Our industry is
> plagued with a shortage of _qualified_ developers, and every extra
> restriction (like literacy in PERL/mod_perl) I place on our HR
> guys/recruiters makes it that much harder to find the perfect programmer.
>
> The programmer marketplace is abound with hordes of VB/ASP/SQL 7 guys (in
> the NYC area where we are located). At the end of the day, no matter how
> much I'd rather create websites for our clients using well planned and
> executed mod_perl/Oracle solutions, if we can't find resources, then our
> choice of development platform is reduced to just another *commodity*: to
> stay in business, we'll be forced to switch to a platform for which we can
> find qualified developers (namely IIS/ASP/VB/MSSQL).
>
> I'm trying to compile some stats on the number of PERL/mod_perl developers
> actually out there looking to work in fun, engaging, open-source
> environments. What proportion of developers have the skills/acumen to be
> mod_perl developers? How many developers consider themselves mod_perl
> experts (probably limited to this list :)? Most programmer survey sites on
> the net offer little insight here, and the vultures (recruiters) seem to
> think there are very few to none located in the major Northeast cities of
> the US. If this is true, our operations might be destined to be converted
> into "yet another Microsoft shop" because that's the only kind of shop for
> which we can find good resources. Open source evangelism aside, most
> businesses are in business to make money, and if their choice of development
> platform prevents them from doing that they'll either close shop or choose
> another platform.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions? How do the other mod_perl shops out there
> tackle the problem of so few people actually knowing mod_perl, let alone
> having a solid background in PERL?
>
> Thank you so much for any help you can provide.
>
> -Alex
>
> <d>
> Alex Schmelkin
> Davanita Design, LLC
> contact --> http://alex.davanita.com
> </d>
--
Best regards,
******************************************************
Vlad A. Safronov vlads@comptek.ru
RE: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Jason Bodnar <jb...@tivoli.com>.
> I'm trying to compile some stats on the number of PERL/mod_perl developers
> actually out there looking to work in fun, engaging, open-source
> environments. What proportion of developers have the skills/acumen to be
> mod_perl developers?
Any good Perl developer can do mod_perl. It's not that hard. The question is
what percentage of Perl developers are good Perl developers. Unfortunately, I
don't think it's that high. Too many HTML monkies decided to learn Perl in
order to turbocharge their paycheck and ended up being bad Perl programmers.
Perl is a programming language and to be a good Perl programmer you have to
understand the fundamentals of good programming (scope, structure, recursion,
abstract data types, etc). mod_perl makes understanding these fundamentals even
more important. If you can find solid Perl programmers it's worth investing the
time to let them learn mod_perl at work.
> How many developers consider themselves mod_perl
> experts (probably limited to this list :)?
I guess I'd probably consider myself an expert. I've been doing it since 1997.
I have written two handlers on CPAN and countless others for internal use. I've
been using Embperl for about two years as well.
> Most programmer survey sites on
> the net offer little insight here, and the vultures (recruiters) seem to
> think there are very few to none located in the major Northeast cities of
> the US. If this is true, our operations might be destined to be converted
> into "yet another Microsoft shop" because that's the only kind of shop for
> which we can find good resources. Open source evangelism aside, most
> businesses are in business to make money, and if their choice of development
> platform prevents them from doing that they'll either close shop or choose
> another platform.
Agreed. But I think something to look at is the number of man hours it takes to
develop and maintain an application written in ASP/VB/etc compared to an
OpenSource technology. Also, many of those ASP/VB/etc people are lacking in the
programming fundamentals that are important for mod_perl programming (or
developing a high quality application in general). They saw there was money to
make with those technologies and bought a SAMS book.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions?
As before, if you can find a solid Perl person, hire them and let them learn
mod_perl on the job.
> How do the other mod_perl shops out there
> tackle the problem of so few people actually knowing mod_perl, let alone
> having a solid background in PERL?
It's difficult. We're short people here but we understand we'll be happier in
the long run if we stick with perl/mod_perl than switching to something like
ASP.
> Thank you so much for any help you can provide.
>
> -Alex
>
> <d>
> Alex Schmelkin
> Davanita Design, LLC
> contact --> http://alex.davanita.com
> </d>
---
Jason Bodnar + jbodnar@tivoli.com + Tivoli Systems
I swear I'd forget my own head if it wasn't up my ass. -- Jason Bodnar
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Clifford Hammerschmidt <ch...@xaosnet.com>.
>mod_perl developers are definately out there, but from what I've seen
>are either:
>
>1) already working somewhere that they'd consider "ideal",
>
>2) strictly freelance and generally wouldn't consider a 'full-time'
>position,
>
>3) expensive as all get out as they know they're hard to find.
Don't forget:
4) Doing something else and getting paid a heck of a lot more then the
average mod_perl programming job offers...
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Wed, 01 Mar 2000, Graham TerMarsch wrote:
> Could be just as expensive "out of the door", but in the long run I
> still believe that when it comes to programmers "you get what you pay
> for".
Or you get lucky. For example you can often find superb graduate developers
for good rates.
--
<Matt/>
Details: FastNet Software Ltd - XML, Perl, Databases.
Tagline: High Performance Web Solutions
Web Sites: http://come.to/fastnet http://sergeant.org
Available for Consultancy, Contracts and Training.
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Graham TerMarsch <gt...@home.com>.
Michael schout wrote:
> Graham TerMarsch wrote:
> > 3) expensive as all get out as they know they're hard to find.
>
> I'd have to agree with this.
>
> And this in turn cancels out all of the savings you get by using
> free software. As much as I like mod_perl, it seems a lot easier
> to find MS-SQL/ASP programmers out there, and for a lot less
> money.
Can understand that for some this would cancel out the savings that
you'd get out of using open source tools to begin with. However,
consider that at some point you're either going to find your original
programmer moving onto another project or you're going to be expanding
your base of developers. When that time comes would you rather have
code built by someone who's likely more knowledgable about what they're
doing (and presumably did a reasonable job of documenting what they
did), or would you rather have the code built by someone who read a
"Learn 'foo' in 21 days" book?
Could be just as expensive "out of the door", but in the long run I
still believe that when it comes to programmers "you get what you pay
for".
--
Graham TerMarsch
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Michael schout <ms...@gkg.net>.
Graham TerMarsch wrote:
> 3) expensive as all get out as they know they're hard to find.
I'd have to agree with this.
And this in turn cancels out all of the savings you get by using
free software. As much as I like mod_perl, it seems a lot easier
to find MS-SQL/ASP programmers out there, and for a lot less
money.
Anyways, just my .02
Mike
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Graham TerMarsch <gt...@home.com>.
Autarch wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Alex Schmelkin wrote:
> > Does anyone have any suggestions? How do the other mod_perl shops out there
> > tackle the problem of so few people actually knowing mod_perl, let alone
> > having a solid background in PERL?
>
> My biggest suggestion: allow/encourage telecommuting/contractors. I live
> in Minnesota and I'm not moving. I am, however, looking for a job
> (particularly as a contractor). Most of the jobs I respond to say that
> they are not willing to use telecommuters. This seems kind of silly given
> the shortage of mod_perl knowledge which you refer to. If you want a
> fairly specialized knowledge then you're going ot have to go out of your
> way to find workers. Other people also mentioned money and benefits,
> which don't hurt.
I think that I'd have to agree on this one. I've been doing
Perl/mod_perl work by contract for the last few years here and have
found the biggest obstacle from the part of the contractor being the
requirement to work on-site. I understand that for some jobs there is a
requirement to work on-site and meet the rest of the team, but when I
(as a contractor) am supposed to be co-ordinating my work with three
remote offices in different parts of the country that are all developing
various pieces of the Website/Web-application that we're putting
together, I fail to see why I as a developer am required to be on-site.
Stupid as that situation sounds, its the norm from what I've
encountered. I finally gave up on searching for a 'job' that'd allow
for tele-commuting and simply stayed freelance.
Only other bone that I ever had with 'full-time' organizations was the
requirement to tie up my entire brain and restrict me from doing any
sort of outside development, generally having the agreement go to the
point of including any "remotely related technologies" that came up as
part of my own pet-projects I dreamt up while sitting on the john one
morning. Non-disclosure and anti-competitive agreements I could
understand, but if the developer feels locked in, he isn't going to feel
free to come up with any of those super-cool ideas tha tyou're really
going to want to get out of him.
As whether I'd consider myself a "mod_perl expert", I'd have to say that
I'm no Doug McEachern, but I think I'm pretty high up on the modperl
learning curve. If I can find enough spare time I'm finally going to
get my GUI Perl debugger finished, with full support for debugging of
mod_perl applications/handlers remotely. Apache::DB has some of my
initial ramblings with Doug in it, but I'm still itching for the ability
to debug my server in Florida from my desk here in my dining room in
Vancouver.
Sorry, I seem to have turned this thing into a ramble. I'll sum up
with....
mod_perl developers are definately out there, but from what I've seen
are either:
1) already working somewhere that they'd consider "ideal",
2) strictly freelance and generally wouldn't consider a 'full-time'
position,
3) expensive as all get out as they know they're hard to find.
Have run into the same thing myself; tried to find several mod_perl
people last year for a project I was working on and in the end found
that the only people I found were of the caliber of "Learn 'foo' in 21
days" programmers, or were already quite happy doing what they were
doing and weren't available for my project. Settled on a set of above
average perl programmers that had a pretty solid background in
programming and programming concepts before they got into perl/mod_perl,
and took things from there. Was almost ironic; after the project ended
they all went off to do other perl/mod_perl things and are now my
competition when doing business here in Vancouver.
--
Graham TerMarsch
--
Graham TerMarsch
// -----------------------------------------------------------------
// "Your butt is mine." -- Michael Jackson, Bad
// -----------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Richard Dice <rd...@pobox.com>.
Alex:
This was a good summary. I would summarize your summary :-) with this:
"There is no silver bullet to mod_perl staffing."
-- Me
> Thanks to everyone on the list for the great replies and sound advice.
> The consensus seems to be that a combination of offsite, highly skilled
^^^^^^^ Not necessarily,
but it can be helpful to allow this as a possibility.
> contractors with home-grown, well trained PERL programmers (if you get
> them young enough :) is a good mix to get most mod_perl jobs done. While
> the management hassle and coordination effort to maintain a network of
> offsite telecommuters could be large, the costs should be mitigated by
> the fact that you are putting together a team of highly skilled
> professionals who (almost always) get the job done on time and correctly.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Certainly one would hope and expect
that these sorts of worker would have their technical stuff together.
However, successful completion of a project _as_ a project is a function
of proper project management: well thought-out schedules, workable
goals, proper group communication, decent specs and requirements, etc.
> My only concern with this approach is should you get (luckily) slammed
> with a huge project, you don't have the staff in-house to immediately
^^^^^^^^^^^
> respond and produce: you have to call in the ranks from the remote
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You find that this is the case with an in-house staff? In my experience,
in-house staff is already fully allocated (as well they should be! A
company wouldn't want to have X people sitting around waiting for a
"real" project to appear.) and to get slammed with a big new project
either means hiring a whole new team anyhow, or bumping everyone's
hours up to slave-galley levels. Probably both.
> network of developers and hope that they are available--quite different
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This brings up an intriguing point... first, would one expect this
remote network of developers to be a contiguous team that sticks together
from project to project, even from company to company? Second, it's
likely that these people are fully-allocated the moment your project
with them ends, anyhow. Unless you wish to pay them on retainer as well
in the expectations that as soon as you're done with the current project,
your firm will have a new project ready for them to start work on.
> than a programmer who shows up at a desk next to yours every morning
> ready to code. But now we're terribly off-topic, so I'll end with:
> thanks again to everyone who participated in the discussion.
Cheers,
Richard
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Dice * Personal 514 816 9568 * Fax 514 816 9569
Open Source Evangelist, HBE Software * http://www.hbesoftware.com
ShadNet Creator * http://shadnet.shad.ca/ * rdice@shadnet.shad.ca
Occasional Writer, HotWired * http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/
"squeeze the world 'til it's small enough to join us heel to toe"
- jesus jones
RE: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Alex Schmelkin <al...@davanita.com>.
Thanks to everyone on the list for the great replies and sound advice. The
consensus seems to be that a combination of offsite, highly skilled
contractors with home-grown, well trained PERL programmers (if you get them
young enough :) is a good mix to get most mod_perl jobs done. While the
management hassle and coordination effort to maintain a network of offsite
telecommuters could be large, the costs should be mitigated by the fact that
you are putting together a team of highly skilled professionals who (almost
always) get the job done on time and correctly. My only concern with this
approach is should you get (luckily) slammed with a huge project, you don't
have the staff in-house to immediately respond and produce: you have to call
in the ranks from the remote network of developers and hope that they are
available--quite different than a programmer who shows up at a desk next to
yours every morning ready to code. But now we're terribly off-topic, so
I'll end with: thanks again to everyone who participated in the discussion.
-Alex
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bosse Strinnholm [mailto:bigboss@innocent.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 6:21 PM
> To: Autarch
> Cc: Alex Schmelkin; modperl@apache.org; Michael Piastro
> Subject: Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
>
>
>
> Autarch wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Alex Schmelkin wrote:
> >
> > > Does anyone have any suggestions? How do the other mod_perl
> shops out there
> > > tackle the problem of so few people actually knowing
> mod_perl, let alone
> > > having a solid background in PERL?
> >
> > My biggest suggestion: allow/encourage
> telecommuting/contractors. I live
> > in Minnesota and I'm not moving. I am, however, looking for a job
> > (particularly as a contractor). Most of the jobs I respond to say that
> > they are not willing to use telecommuters. This seems kind of
> silly given
> > the shortage of mod_perl knowledge which you refer to. If you want a
> > fairly specialized knowledge then you're going ot have to go out of your
> > way to find workers. Other people also mentioned money and benefits,
> > which don't hurt.
>
> I agree. I got > 10 yrs of perl, c, c++, u*x and RDBMS experience...
> Got a little farm of virthosts running with mod_perl and mason,
> real nice considering this land is marked NT. It's kind of hard
> to find something
> not sounding like IIS over here.
> Anyhow, I'm just not skipping this snowy, cold county just like
> that for an
> uncertain
> opportunity in NYC.
> Give me a chance to evaluate you and you can evaluate me.
> This is 2000?? Is it still that difficult to communicate from a
> little distance?
>
> > Then there was the place that was willing to consider me as an employee
> > (telecommuting full time) but wanted me to sign an agreement to never to
> > do any sort of outside work.
> >
> > These two things actually fall under the same category of reducing the
> > barriers to employment as much as possible (location, requirements for
> > employment, etc.)
> >
> > As to whether I'm a mod_perl expert, that's hard to say. I
> know it fairly
> > well (as well as Mason, to which I've contributed some stuff to
> appear in
> > a future release) and probably better than most 'plain Perl' developers.
> > I'm certainly qualified for a mod_perl specific job.
> >
> > -dave
> >
> > /*==================
> > www.urth.org
> > We await the New Sun
> > ==================*/
>
> Cheers,
>
> /Bosse Strinnholm
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Bosse Strinnholm <bi...@innocent.com>.
Autarch wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Alex Schmelkin wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have any suggestions? How do the other mod_perl shops out there
> > tackle the problem of so few people actually knowing mod_perl, let alone
> > having a solid background in PERL?
>
> My biggest suggestion: allow/encourage telecommuting/contractors. I live
> in Minnesota and I'm not moving. I am, however, looking for a job
> (particularly as a contractor). Most of the jobs I respond to say that
> they are not willing to use telecommuters. This seems kind of silly given
> the shortage of mod_perl knowledge which you refer to. If you want a
> fairly specialized knowledge then you're going ot have to go out of your
> way to find workers. Other people also mentioned money and benefits,
> which don't hurt.
I agree. I got > 10 yrs of perl, c, c++, u*x and RDBMS experience...
Got a little farm of virthosts running with mod_perl and mason,
real nice considering this land is marked NT. It's kind of hard to find something
not sounding like IIS over here.
Anyhow, I'm just not skipping this snowy, cold county just like that for an
uncertain
opportunity in NYC.
Give me a chance to evaluate you and you can evaluate me.
This is 2000?? Is it still that difficult to communicate from a little distance?
> Then there was the place that was willing to consider me as an employee
> (telecommuting full time) but wanted me to sign an agreement to never to
> do any sort of outside work.
>
> These two things actually fall under the same category of reducing the
> barriers to employment as much as possible (location, requirements for
> employment, etc.)
>
> As to whether I'm a mod_perl expert, that's hard to say. I know it fairly
> well (as well as Mason, to which I've contributed some stuff to appear in
> a future release) and probably better than most 'plain Perl' developers.
> I'm certainly qualified for a mod_perl specific job.
>
> -dave
>
> /*==================
> www.urth.org
> We await the New Sun
> ==================*/
Cheers,
/Bosse Strinnholm
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Autarch <au...@urth.org>.
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Alex Schmelkin wrote:
> Does anyone have any suggestions? How do the other mod_perl shops out there
> tackle the problem of so few people actually knowing mod_perl, let alone
> having a solid background in PERL?
My biggest suggestion: allow/encourage telecommuting/contractors. I live
in Minnesota and I'm not moving. I am, however, looking for a job
(particularly as a contractor). Most of the jobs I respond to say that
they are not willing to use telecommuters. This seems kind of silly given
the shortage of mod_perl knowledge which you refer to. If you want a
fairly specialized knowledge then you're going ot have to go out of your
way to find workers. Other people also mentioned money and benefits,
which don't hurt.
Then there was the place that was willing to consider me as an employee
(telecommuting full time) but wanted me to sign an agreement to never to
do any sort of outside work.
These two things actually fall under the same category of reducing the
barriers to employment as much as possible (location, requirements for
employment, etc.)
As to whether I'm a mod_perl expert, that's hard to say. I know it fairly
well (as well as Mason, to which I've contributed some stuff to appear in
a future release) and probably better than most 'plain Perl' developers.
I'm certainly qualified for a mod_perl specific job.
-dave
/*==================
www.urth.org
We await the New Sun
==================*/
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Eric Strovink <st...@acm.org>.
As a "player-coach" for many years, my best hires have been made by looking for
plain old competent people, not necessarily people who are fluent in a specific
domain. Find a compiler hack, for example, who has written the nth back end to
the kth compiler, and is damn well sick of it. That person spends all day
puking at all the "new" compiler jobs being waved around by headhunters.
I've found that such people can be easily recruited by offering them a chance to
do something completely different. You ask if the person can code? Folks, if
s/he can write a compiler, s/he can write some Perl code, even if s/he starts
off not knowing Perl from a hole in the wall. A few days with The Book and a
Perl primer -- problem solved.
There's plenty of other talent pools -- I just happen to have had good luck with
compiler hacks. In general I claim it's a mistake to hire "specific" talent --
it usually costs you way too much, and you run the risk of hiring the person who
puts the biggest lie on his/her resume, rather than the person who has
legitimate coding talent combined with the burning desire to learn something
new.
My two cents, for what it's worth. I've only been hiring since 1983, what do I
know.
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Stas Bekman <sb...@iname.com>.
> I have an interesting problem that I'm hoping to solve with some guidance
> from members of this great list:
>
> We are unable to find qualified PERL/mod_perl developers. Our industry is
> plagued with a shortage of _qualified_ developers, and every extra
> restriction (like literacy in PERL/mod_perl) I place on our HR
> guys/recruiters makes it that much harder to find the perfect programmer.
You will be interested to read a *big* thread (74 messages!) about this
very topic at: http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/modperl/grenddwimfral
The conclusion was (told by many, not me) that the current mod_perl
developers don't want to create an army of new mod_perl developers,
because while we are few the salaries are high, when there will be many,
the salaries will be low.
So before we go thru all this again, you might want to go and spend some
time reading this thread (see above) before repeating this all again.
BTW, this is what I call a *sexy* topic I was talking in another email...
I bet there will be at least 50 messages in this thread in a few days and
it will still for weeks...
I'm back to looking for a new mod_perl job :)
_______________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman mailto:sbekman@iname.com http://www.stason.org/stas
Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide mod_perl http://perl.apache.org
Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC http://www.stason.org/stas/TULARC
http://modperl.sourcegarden.org http://perlmonth.com http://perl.org
single o-> + single o-+ = singlesheaven http://www.singlesheaven.com
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Doug MacEachern <do...@pobox.com>.
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, siberian wrote:
> That said, anyone want to come work for www.spa.com? We're pre-IPO and
> tons of fun ;)
I would provide several free hours of work if you set me up on a date
with the girl on your homepage ;)
RE: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by Sanjivendra Nath <dn...@enteract.com>.
One of the ways our company tried to resolve this was by doing what may or
may not be a good choice for other people.
We opened a development office in New Delhi (India) and built a core
mod_perl expertise there.
Its easier to hire, train, and retain people there than in Silicon Valley or
other hot spots. Although, India is also becoming another hot spot rapidly.
Sanju Nath.
www.provillage.com
(an application built on mod_perl).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: siberian [mailto:siberian@siberian.org]
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 3:01 PM
> To: modperl@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
>
>
> I long ago stopped looking for mod_perl people, they really just do not
> exist in a employable context ( they are all either A) Employed B)
> freelance or C) Vesting options ). Now I just look for good perl people
> and train them out to be mod_perl folks. ANy good perl person who
> understands apache and the perl package module can be moved to mod_perl in
> a weeks time by someone who _does_ know mod_perl.
>
> We are big beleivers in sharing information here hopefully creating more
> mod_perl folks in the long run.
>
> That said, anyone want to come work for www.spa.com? We're pre-IPO and
> tons of fun ;)
>
> John Armstrong
>
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Alex Schmelkin wrote:
>
> > I have an interesting problem that I'm hoping to solve with
> some guidance
> > from members of this great list:
> >
> > We are unable to find qualified PERL/mod_perl developers. Our
> industry is
> > plagued with a shortage of _qualified_ developers, and every extra
> > restriction (like literacy in PERL/mod_perl) I place on our HR
> > guys/recruiters makes it that much harder to find the perfect
> programmer.
> >
> > The programmer marketplace is abound with hordes of VB/ASP/SQL
> 7 guys (in
> > the NYC area where we are located). At the end of the day, no
> matter how
> > much I'd rather create websites for our clients using well planned and
> > executed mod_perl/Oracle solutions, if we can't find resources, then our
> > choice of development platform is reduced to just another
> *commodity*: to
> > stay in business, we'll be forced to switch to a platform for
> which we can
> > find qualified developers (namely IIS/ASP/VB/MSSQL).
> >
> > I'm trying to compile some stats on the number of PERL/mod_perl
> developers
> > actually out there looking to work in fun, engaging, open-source
> > environments. What proportion of developers have the
> skills/acumen to be
> > mod_perl developers? How many developers consider themselves mod_perl
> > experts (probably limited to this list :)? Most programmer
> survey sites on
> > the net offer little insight here, and the vultures (recruiters) seem to
> > think there are very few to none located in the major Northeast
> cities of
> > the US. If this is true, our operations might be destined to
> be converted
> > into "yet another Microsoft shop" because that's the only kind
> of shop for
> > which we can find good resources. Open source evangelism aside, most
> > businesses are in business to make money, and if their choice
> of development
> > platform prevents them from doing that they'll either close
> shop or choose
> > another platform.
> >
> > Does anyone have any suggestions? How do the other mod_perl
> shops out there
> > tackle the problem of so few people actually knowing mod_perl, let alone
> > having a solid background in PERL?
> >
> > Thank you so much for any help you can provide.
> >
> > -Alex
> >
> > <d>
> > Alex Schmelkin
> > Davanita Design, LLC
> > contact --> http://alex.davanita.com
> > </d>
> >
> >
>
>
Re: [OT slightly] mod_perl developers (do they exist?)
Posted by siberian <si...@siberian.org>.
I long ago stopped looking for mod_perl people, they really just do not
exist in a employable context ( they are all either A) Employed B)
freelance or C) Vesting options ). Now I just look for good perl people
and train them out to be mod_perl folks. ANy good perl person who
understands apache and the perl package module can be moved to mod_perl in
a weeks time by someone who _does_ know mod_perl.
We are big beleivers in sharing information here hopefully creating more
mod_perl folks in the long run.
That said, anyone want to come work for www.spa.com? We're pre-IPO and
tons of fun ;)
John Armstrong
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Alex Schmelkin wrote:
> I have an interesting problem that I'm hoping to solve with some guidance
> from members of this great list:
>
> We are unable to find qualified PERL/mod_perl developers. Our industry is
> plagued with a shortage of _qualified_ developers, and every extra
> restriction (like literacy in PERL/mod_perl) I place on our HR
> guys/recruiters makes it that much harder to find the perfect programmer.
>
> The programmer marketplace is abound with hordes of VB/ASP/SQL 7 guys (in
> the NYC area where we are located). At the end of the day, no matter how
> much I'd rather create websites for our clients using well planned and
> executed mod_perl/Oracle solutions, if we can't find resources, then our
> choice of development platform is reduced to just another *commodity*: to
> stay in business, we'll be forced to switch to a platform for which we can
> find qualified developers (namely IIS/ASP/VB/MSSQL).
>
> I'm trying to compile some stats on the number of PERL/mod_perl developers
> actually out there looking to work in fun, engaging, open-source
> environments. What proportion of developers have the skills/acumen to be
> mod_perl developers? How many developers consider themselves mod_perl
> experts (probably limited to this list :)? Most programmer survey sites on
> the net offer little insight here, and the vultures (recruiters) seem to
> think there are very few to none located in the major Northeast cities of
> the US. If this is true, our operations might be destined to be converted
> into "yet another Microsoft shop" because that's the only kind of shop for
> which we can find good resources. Open source evangelism aside, most
> businesses are in business to make money, and if their choice of development
> platform prevents them from doing that they'll either close shop or choose
> another platform.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions? How do the other mod_perl shops out there
> tackle the problem of so few people actually knowing mod_perl, let alone
> having a solid background in PERL?
>
> Thank you so much for any help you can provide.
>
> -Alex
>
> <d>
> Alex Schmelkin
> Davanita Design, LLC
> contact --> http://alex.davanita.com
> </d>
>
>