FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi Corinthia community,

As your report mentions community difficulties, I have subscribed to
this list and to your private list as well, to see if I can help
resolve those and move forward.

I am currently a member of the ASF's Board of Directors please note
that this is not The Board speaking - I am only here as an experienced
ASF member and incubation mentor, who likes to fix community-related
things when that's possible. There's absolutely no reason for the
Board to get involved in your current issues, worst case the Incubator
PMC could comment but the Board has more foundation-wide issues to
tackle.

I'm a big fan of being as concise as possible, so don't take any
terseness from my side as a bad sign, and feel free to ask if I'm
being too terse (in future emails - for this one that's already over
;-)

If there are specific questions about the incubation process, ASF best
practices etc. I would recommend that people use a [MENTOR] marker in
subject lines. I have absolutely zero technical interest in the
software that you guys are creating, so this helps filter out what
might be relevant for people like me and for your mentors.

Lastly, I had a look at your private list's archives and there's way
too much traffic there IMO. In general, 99% of discussions can be
brought here by suitably formulating things in a way that avoids
disclosing any secrets. And people often behave much better on a
public list.

Let's see what can be done to fix this community.

-Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:14 PM, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...I strongly believe the problems in this community
> are not the traffic on private or dev...

I agree that this is probably not the core problem, it was just one of
my initial observations.

-Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[jan i <ja...@apache.org>]

On 3 September 2015 at 14:05, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:01 PM, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ...All committers are also PPMC, which of course makes it harder to
> remember
> > where to post :-)...
>
> My rule is to always post to the dev list unless something absolutely
> needs to be on the private list.
>
> As you say, most things that mention people's names belong on the
> private list, but it's often possible to discuss things in the open
> without disclosing embarassing details or secrets.
>
> AFAIK you had discussions about how to elect new people for example,
> such discussions belong here (with a [MENTOR] tag as suggested) and
> not on your private list. The less traffic there the better.
>

Again I agree, and we actually did have the generic discussion about
qualifications for
new people here....while the in private discussion was concentrated about 1
potential
committer.

I must admit though, that I strongly believe the problems in this community
are not the
traffic on private or dev, but how fronts have been built between
developers who actually
do something while adhering to the apache rules and some others.

You need to make your own opinion on the problems, maybe fresh eyes sees
something
new.

rgds
jan i.

>
> -Bertrand
>

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:01 PM, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...All committers are also PPMC, which of course makes it harder to remember
> where to post :-)...

My rule is to always post to the dev list unless something absolutely
needs to be on the private list.

As you say, most things that mention people's names belong on the
private list, but it's often possible to discuss things in the open
without disclosing embarassing details or secrets.

AFAIK you had discussions about how to elect new people for example,
such discussions belong here (with a [MENTOR] tag as suggested) and
not on your private list. The less traffic there the better.

-Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[jan i <ja...@apache.org>]

Welcome.

I agree with the private traffic, note though that a lot of the discussions
is about our current problems, and names are
mentioned, that was my reason for having some of the traffic on private@

All committers are also PPMC, which of course makes it harder to remember
where to post :-)

Good luck with trying to fix the community. I am if  wanted glad to help
with my lately very limited possibilities
(it is known that I resigned as mentor).

rgds
jan i.


On 3 September 2015 at 13:55, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:

> Hi Corinthia community,
>
> As your report mentions community difficulties, I have subscribed to
> this list and to your private list as well, to see if I can help
> resolve those and move forward.
>
> I am currently a member of the ASF's Board of Directors please note
> that this is not The Board speaking - I am only here as an experienced
> ASF member and incubation mentor, who likes to fix community-related
> things when that's possible. There's absolutely no reason for the
> Board to get involved in your current issues, worst case the Incubator
> PMC could comment but the Board has more foundation-wide issues to
> tackle.
>
> I'm a big fan of being as concise as possible, so don't take any
> terseness from my side as a bad sign, and feel free to ask if I'm
> being too terse (in future emails - for this one that's already over
> ;-)
>
> If there are specific questions about the incubation process, ASF best
> practices etc. I would recommend that people use a [MENTOR] marker in
> subject lines. I have absolutely zero technical interest in the
> software that you guys are creating, so this helps filter out what
> might be relevant for people like me and for your mentors.
>
> Lastly, I had a look at your private list's archives and there's way
> too much traffic there IMO. In general, 99% of discussions can be
> brought here by suitably formulating things in a way that avoids
> disclosing any secrets. And people often behave much better on a
> public list.
>
> Let's see what can be done to fix this community.
>
> -Bertrand
>

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi Dave,

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 12:04 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> ...At what point in time should Mentors seek help from the rest of the IPMC when a
> community starts to meltdown? Or will the IPMC prefer we go to ComDev? What do
> we do when things go to MAD - mutual assured destruction?...

Reaching out to the Incubator PMC is fine, and if that's possible
using public lists for that is much better - people express things
differently there and it helps in exposing the elephants in your
rooms.

But I don't think there's a general rule as to when that happens.

Forming a podling is difficult as if often starts with a team that
hasn't necessarily chosen to work together. I bet the situation would
have been very different if you guys had been able to meet in person,
but in email that's quite hard.

-Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Peter Kelly <pm...@apache.org>]

> On 4 Sep 2015, at 12:52 pm, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> i am sorry to say, I believe the resignations should be taken seriously,
> some of us (maybe all) do not use resignation as a threat.
> 
> we cannot talk about what happens on other lists, which is sad because you
> did an excellent job in describing the problem and the response was not
> what was expected.
> 
> Thanks for your help Dave.

Dave - I’d also like to take this opportunity to publicly thank you for the work you’ve done as a mentor and the support you’ve lent to our efforts as a community in this difficult time.

You took a strong stand in support of the developers and against those who were hurting the community. You’ve done a great job as mentor; it’s unfortunate that for reasons beyond our control, things haven’t worked out in this instance.

—
Dr Peter M. Kelly
pmkelly@apache.org

PGP key: http://www.kellypmk.net/pgp-key <http://www.kellypmk.net/pgp-key>
(fingerprint 5435 6718 59F0 DD1F BFA0 5E46 2523 BAA1 44AE 2966)

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:37 AM, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...In about 48 hours the public notice will go out. It is of course your
> decision whether or not you consider a mail to private@ to be serious, for
> me it is...

Serious might not have been the right word - what I mean is that
people are talking about their resignations here while those are not
visible and according to you not even effective.

-Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[jan i <ja...@apache.org>]

On Friday, September 4, 2015, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 7:52 AM, jan i <jani@apache.org <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> > ...i am sorry to say, I believe the resignations should be taken
> seriously...
>
> To be taken seriously they need to be announced here.


I have been told you resign by sending an email to private@ and after 72
hours a notice is sent upwards as well as updating foundation records.

the whole purpose of the 72 hour cool down period would vanish if the
resignation was sent to a public list. invitations and resignations are
handled on private@ until effective. I have not been in a project that
handled it differently.

In about 48 hours the public notice will go out. It is of course your
decision whether or not you consider a mail to private@ to be serious, for
me it is.

rgds
jan i



>
> -Bertrand
>


-- 
Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 7:52 AM, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...i am sorry to say, I believe the resignations should be taken seriously...

To be taken seriously they need to be announced here.

-Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[jan i <ja...@apache.org>]

On Friday, September 4, 2015, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Hi Bertrand,
>
> Welcome to the list. Perhaps I have not been the mentor here that I have
> been on other projects. I aspired to the light touch like was used for Flex
> and Olingo.

You have been a good mentor in here ! you helped us cool things down when
they became too personal,  you managed to create space where one part kept
silent while you tried to make proposals on how to continue.

When you took an active role, I could take a step back and instead, which
was a good thing, because I was too involved but also the only one fighting
to keep the community together.

>
> At what point in time should Mentors seek help from the rest of the IPMC
> when a community starts to meltdown? Or will the IPMC prefer we go to
> ComDev? What do we do when things go to MAD - mutual assured destruction?

That is my question too, and can mentors then also expect to get help when
asking.

lets face it, help of a type that causes a mentor to resign, seems less
constructive.

>
> Let's face it diversity is hard.

yup and it would be good to accept that in a small community it is very
important that personalities work together.

I think we (you and me) knew after having tried  a lot, that this was a
question of one person or a community.....what we see now is the
consequence expected.

>
> Let's see if the only sound here becomes crickets. I hope not.

i am sorry to say, I believe the resignations should be taken seriously,
some of us (maybe all) do not use resignation as a threat.

we cannot talk about what happens on other lists, which is sad because you
did an excellent job in describing the problem and the response was not
what was expected.

Thanks for your help Dave.

>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 3, 2015, at 6:30 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Louis,
> >
> >> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <luispo@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> ...I, along with some others currently or formerly with this project
> will be in
> >> Budapest and a post-mortem (or just mortem) discussion could maybe
> >> be had there....
> >
> > ok, it would be nice to have at least an informal discussion, count me
> in!
> >
> > -Bertrand
>


-- 
Sent from My iPad, sorry for any misspellings.

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

Hi Bertrand,

Welcome to the list. Perhaps I have not been the mentor here that I have been on other projects. I aspired to the light touch like was used for Flex and Olingo.

At what point in time should Mentors seek help from the rest of the IPMC when a community starts to meltdown? Or will the IPMC prefer we go to ComDev? What do we do when things go to MAD - mutual assured destruction?

Let's face it diversity is hard.

Let's see if the only sound here becomes crickets. I hope not.

Regards,
Dave


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 3, 2015, at 6:30 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Louis,
> 
>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...I, along with some others currently or formerly with this project will be in
>> Budapest and a post-mortem (or just mortem) discussion could maybe
>> be had there....
> 
> ok, it would be nice to have at least an informal discussion, count me in!
> 
> -Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi Louis,

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...I, along with some others currently or formerly with this project will be in
> Budapest and a post-mortem (or just mortem) discussion could maybe
> be had there....

ok, it would be nice to have at least an informal discussion, count me in!

-Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi Louis,

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...But to be able to reap these benefits we need to understand, and if possible, fix,
> problems like those that beset Corinthia. Hence my desire for a post-mortem...

ok, as I said I'm open to discussing these things, on our lists
(comdev might be the best place) and/or in person.

-Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>]

> On 03 Sep 15, at 09:25, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> On 3 September 2015 at 15:16, Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Bertrand,
>> I, along with some others currently or formerly with this project will be
>> in Budapest and a post-mortem (or just mortem) discussion could maybe be
>> had there. Unfortunately, not all involved with this project will be there.
>> Perhaps something can be arranged.
>> 
> It sounds like a good idea, but might be a bit difficult, because at least
> for me, it was IPMC private that broke my hopes.
> 
> 
> It is surely a good idea to look at the history leading upto the last
> couple of days...of course only if IPMC is interested.

They ought to be :-)

The reasons are both particular and general and have as much to do with what makes for a successful podling -> project and community with code as for what does the opposite, and seemingly with the best of intentions. 

The broad issue of Apache’s reputation as being too thick with bureaucracy was raised by me last year, at the Corinthia. The summary complaint of those leaving the project, me included, was that a fetish for otherwise-good rules ground the project’s esprit de corps into dust. 

Understanding the quality of the community (read: people motivated by a recursive shared identity to work together) that started small but claimed huge ambition is crucial, if not for Corinthia, then for other projects I hope to see at Apache. I know this kind of thing has been done and more than once; and that the rules, the guidelines that exist have been sedimented into still-soft rock by years of experience. There’s a lot of bend; I know that. But… 

The problem is that Apache does not exist in a vacuum, nor is it the only meta-project offering developers useful tools. Others do that too. What Apache offers that’s very valuable is a logic that deprecates exploitation by asserting the primacy of community; but also the possibility of close association with people at other projects working on different but similar technologies and for companies, perhaps, that can make the difference.

But to be able to reap these benefits we need to understand, and if possible, fix, problems like those that beset Corinthia. Hence my desire for a post-mortem.

-louis


> rgds
> jan i.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Louis
>> 
>> 
>>> On 03 Sep 15, at 09:13, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Peter Kelly <pm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> ...I suggest though that a “post-mortem”, so to speak, may be useful
>> for Incubator
>>>> to help understand the causes of the project’s failure and consider how
>> a
>>>> similar outcome could be avoided in the future....
>>> 
>>> That might be helpful if it can avoid mentioning people's names. It
>>> (or its URL) can be sent here or to the general@incubator.apache.org
>>> list.
>>> 
>>> -Bertrand
>> 
>> 

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[jan i <ja...@apache.org>]

On 3 September 2015 at 15:16, Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Bertrand,
> I, along with some others currently or formerly with this project will be
> in Budapest and a post-mortem (or just mortem) discussion could maybe be
> had there. Unfortunately, not all involved with this project will be there.
> Perhaps something can be arranged.
>
It sounds like a good idea, but might be a bit difficult, because at least
for me, it was IPMC private that broke my hopes.


It is surely a good idea to look at the history leading upto the last
couple of days...of course only if IPMC is interested.

rgds
jan i.


>
> Louis
>
>
> > On 03 Sep 15, at 09:13, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Peter Kelly <pm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> ...I suggest though that a “post-mortem”, so to speak, may be useful
> for Incubator
> >> to help understand the causes of the project’s failure and consider how
> a
> >> similar outcome could be avoided in the future....
> >
> > That might be helpful if it can avoid mentioning people's names. It
> > (or its URL) can be sent here or to the general@incubator.apache.org
> > list.
> >
> > -Bertrand
>
>

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>]

Bertrand,
I, along with some others currently or formerly with this project will be in Budapest and a post-mortem (or just mortem) discussion could maybe be had there. Unfortunately, not all involved with this project will be there. Perhaps something can be arranged.

Louis


> On 03 Sep 15, at 09:13, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Peter Kelly <pm...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...I suggest though that a “post-mortem”, so to speak, may be useful for Incubator
>> to help understand the causes of the project’s failure and consider how a
>> similar outcome could be avoided in the future....
> 
> That might be helpful if it can avoid mentioning people's names. It
> (or its URL) can be sent here or to the general@incubator.apache.org
> list.
> 
> -Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Peter Kelly <pm...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...I suggest though that a “post-mortem”, so to speak, may be useful for Incubator
> to help understand the causes of the project’s failure and consider how a
> similar outcome could be avoided in the future....

That might be helpful if it can avoid mentioning people's names. It
(or its URL) can be sent here or to the general@incubator.apache.org
list.

-Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Peter Kelly <pm...@apache.org>]

> On 3 Sep 2015, at 7:28 pm, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Peter Kelly <pm...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...All of us have expressed our views clearly on the dev and/or private
>> lists - you’ll be able to see all sides....
> 
> I won't have time to read all of that, for now my plan was just to sit
> here and watch what happens. If people do things based on specific
> discussions in those archives, please provide links for context.
> 
> And if people are leaving anyway...it's not catastrophic for an Apache
> podling to fail, that happens.

Understood. There’s too many links to cover it all; basically the majority of discussions that have happened in the last couple of months have related to the problems. I prefer not to provide a summary because it’s going to be inherently biased towards my own views, and others will have have different interpretations of events.

I suggest though that a “post-mortem”, so to speak, may be useful for Incubator to help understand the causes of the project’s failure and consider how a similar outcome could be avoided in the future. I’m not sure if the problems were systemic or simply a clash of personalities.

—
Dr Peter M. Kelly
pmkelly@apache.org

PGP key: http://www.kellypmk.net/pgp-key <http://www.kellypmk.net/pgp-key>
(fingerprint 5435 6718 59F0 DD1F BFA0 5E46 2523 BAA1 44AE 2966)

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Peter Kelly <pm...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...All of us have expressed our views clearly on the dev and/or private
> lists - you’ll be able to see all sides....

I won't have time to read all of that, for now my plan was just to sit
here and watch what happens. If people do things based on specific
discussions in those archives, please provide links for context.

And if people are leaving anyway...it's not catastrophic for an Apache
podling to fail, that happens.

-Bertrand

Re: FYI, I have subscribed to this list and to your private list

[Peter Kelly <pm...@apache.org>]

Hi Bertrand, thanks for your interest.

I would encourage you to read through the recent discussions about our community problems, and earlier messages where those were illustrated - there’s admittedly quite a lot of ground to cover, but probably necessary to get the full context. However this should give you a pretty good understanding of how we’ve arrived at the current situation.

All of us have expressed our views clearly on the dev and/or private lists - you’ll be able to see all sides.

Personally I’ve come to the conclusion (which may or may not be correct) that continuing this project as part of ASF is not viable, hence my decision today to resign as a PPMC member and committer.

—
Dr Peter M. Kelly
pmkelly@apache.org

PGP key: http://www.kellypmk.net/pgp-key <http://www.kellypmk.net/pgp-key>
(fingerprint 5435 6718 59F0 DD1F BFA0 5E46 2523 BAA1 44AE 2966)

> On 3 Sep 2015, at 6:55 pm, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Corinthia community,
> 
> As your report mentions community difficulties, I have subscribed to
> this list and to your private list as well, to see if I can help
> resolve those and move forward.
> 
> I am currently a member of the ASF's Board of Directors please note
> that this is not The Board speaking - I am only here as an experienced
> ASF member and incubation mentor, who likes to fix community-related
> things when that's possible. There's absolutely no reason for the
> Board to get involved in your current issues, worst case the Incubator
> PMC could comment but the Board has more foundation-wide issues to
> tackle.
> 
> I'm a big fan of being as concise as possible, so don't take any
> terseness from my side as a bad sign, and feel free to ask if I'm
> being too terse (in future emails - for this one that's already over
> ;-)
> 
> If there are specific questions about the incubation process, ASF best
> practices etc. I would recommend that people use a [MENTOR] marker in
> subject lines. I have absolutely zero technical interest in the
> software that you guys are creating, so this helps filter out what
> might be relevant for people like me and for your mentors.
> 
> Lastly, I had a look at your private list's archives and there's way
> too much traffic there IMO. In general, 99% of discussions can be
> brought here by suitably formulating things in a way that avoids
> disclosing any secrets. And people often behave much better on a
> public list.
> 
> Let's see what can be done to fix this community.
> 
> -Bertrand