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Posted to user@mahout.apache.org by Trevor Grant <tr...@gmail.com> on 2017/04/04 17:49:19 UTC
Re: Marketing
Re name changes- definitely not in love with the idea.
In my experience there are two main segments of data scientists when
opening a conversation about Apache Mahout:
1) "We don't use map reduce"
2) "I've never heard of it"
2a) "I don't understand math, I just blindly fire 'machine learning'
algorithms at things"
2b) "That sounds amazing!"
For segment 2, a name change will do no good. For 2a, that was me being a
bit hyperbolic, but to some extent 'pre-canned' algorithms and docs will
help.
A user in segment 2b, who then goes searching and trying to learn mahout-
end up reading all the old slide decks/stack overflows/books, and then end
up in segment 1.
In my mind, there is the crux of the problem.
So THAT is who we're really trying to intercept. A name change would be a
lazy but effective way to do it. Calling it Mahout-Samsara sort of hit that
point. The old website with a mish mash of old and new- side by side is
certainly not helping.
Framing it like that, the 'user journey' in my mind is something like a
google search / trying code and finding things on stackoverflow, visiting
the website, and finding 'getting started' tutorials.
So the crux isn't the name so much as it is shepherding users on their
journey. So if not name change (which I'm in no way convinced is necessary
or prudent- but will leave it open for someone to counter point), I think
the following:
1. More blogs / docs / "soft content" on Mahout- per previous post I am
personally working on getting a batch edited and looking right.
2. Website reboot with a re-organization that emphasizes 'new' stuff and
pushes old stuff down below the fold.
3. 1 and 2 possibly both happen together (e.g. tutorials and soft content
in support of new page- though I'd rather get soft content published asap,
e.g. don't delay content for website overhaul)
I also agree that case-studies and user stories are an awesome idea, but I
think that is how people hear about Mahout (are made aware), and then
proceed as I stated above. E.g. case studies and stories are an important
part about how we 'fill the funnel' with people who are interested in
Mahout, but don't want to loose them on the path from 'awareness' to
'user'.
Actual Steps:
1. Again, I am locked and loaded on a batch of content.
vacations/conferences have jammed me up, will start trying to post soon.
(can always spell check later ;) ). More is better- so if you have
something, please push it.
2. Website, we desperately need someone/ some people who has/have expertise
and bandwidth to make this happen. (Design and implementation)
3. This ties into the jekyll integration, which would allow contributors to
help write content for the website (instead of full blown committers).
Really any git based integration, however a number of projects (Flink,
Zeppelin, etc) have used Jekyll so I suppose there is some logic to their
rationale.
4. Logo- want to keep the discussion open on this. I think we are leaning
towards 'keep the name Mahout' but still open to the idea of a logo reboot.
It makes sense we wouldn't change the logo while we're still undecided on
the name, so if someone has a strong opinion on changing the name please
speak up, otherwise lets keep kicking this around.
Just some thoughts I've had after stepping away and coming back to the
issue with a fresh set of eyes, and my .02
tg
Trevor Grant
Data Scientist
https://github.com/rawkintrevo
http://stackexchange.com/users/3002022/rawkintrevo
http://trevorgrant.org
*"Fortunate is he, who is able to know the causes of things." -Virgil*
On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Andrew Evans <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The issue could be competition better grounded in Spark like ND4J and the
> increased popularity of Python. Name changes are really difficult. If you
> think that you have improved over your recent iteration and moved to a
> more competitive platform, then it would be a good idea. Otherwise, try to
> wait and build credibility. At that point, it may even be a good idea to
> keep the old platform and move people to the newly named 'better' platform
> without the risk of losing respect.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > That is an awesome second interpretation.
> >
> > Having voted on the original name I'm 100% biased so take my opinion with
> > a huge grain of salt: on the one hand I think name changes are over rated
> > (anyone remember ethereal?), on the other hand IMHO Mahout is a fairly
> > strong brand representing machine learning at scale.
> >
> > Maybe a combination of any of a new logo, design, documentation, release
> > that drops the zero in "0.x.y", a press release for that release that
> Sally
> > can help you with, a new front page that publishes the new focus of
> > development, maybe a few snippets on that shift in focus that editors can
> > use, dropping deprecated code would already go a long way... Just some
> > random ideas.
> >
> > Isabel
> >
> >
> > Am 25. März 2017 03:21:50 MEZ schrieb Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com
> >:
> > >On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Pat Ferrel <pa...@occamsmachete.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> maybe we should drop the name Mahout altogether.
> > >
> > >
> > >I have been told that there is a cool secondary interpretation of
> > >Mahout as
> > >well.
> > >
> > >I think that the Hebrew word is pronounced roughly like Mahout.
> > >
> > >מַהוּת
> > >
> > >The cool thing is that this word means "essence" or possibly "truth".
> > >So
> > >regardless of the guy riding the elephant, Mahout still has something
> > >to be
> > >said for it.
> > >
> > >(I have no Hebrew, btw)
> > >(real speakers may want to comment here)
> >
> > --
> > Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail
> > gesendet.
>
Re: Marketing
Posted by Andrew Palumbo <ap...@outlook.com>.
> I know i brought up that honey badgers eat snakes (python), the one big
danger in this- if we ever do decide to implement python bindings then all
of the sudden things get awkward. (I'm imaginging going to a Python meetup
to talk about new Mahout-Samsara-<othername> bindings, and some one asks,
"why is he eating a snake", "oh well because at the time we thought python
was trash and we were very arrogant"). -TG
+1 [😊]
________________________________
From: Andrew Palumbo <ap...@outlook.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2017 2:24:24 PM
To: dev@mahout.apache.org
Subject: Re: Marketing
+1 on keeping the name.
________________________________
From: Trevor Grant <tr...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2017 1:49:19 PM
To: user@mahout.apache.org; dev@mahout.apache.org
Subject: Re: Marketing
Re name changes- definitely not in love with the idea.
In my experience there are two main segments of data scientists when
opening a conversation about Apache Mahout:
1) "We don't use map reduce"
2) "I've never heard of it"
2a) "I don't understand math, I just blindly fire 'machine learning'
algorithms at things"
2b) "That sounds amazing!"
For segment 2, a name change will do no good. For 2a, that was me being a
bit hyperbolic, but to some extent 'pre-canned' algorithms and docs will
help.
A user in segment 2b, who then goes searching and trying to learn mahout-
end up reading all the old slide decks/stack overflows/books, and then end
up in segment 1.
In my mind, there is the crux of the problem.
So THAT is who we're really trying to intercept. A name change would be a
lazy but effective way to do it. Calling it Mahout-Samsara sort of hit that
point. The old website with a mish mash of old and new- side by side is
certainly not helping.
Framing it like that, the 'user journey' in my mind is something like a
google search / trying code and finding things on stackoverflow, visiting
the website, and finding 'getting started' tutorials.
So the crux isn't the name so much as it is shepherding users on their
journey. So if not name change (which I'm in no way convinced is necessary
or prudent- but will leave it open for someone to counter point), I think
the following:
1. More blogs / docs / "soft content" on Mahout- per previous post I am
personally working on getting a batch edited and looking right.
2. Website reboot with a re-organization that emphasizes 'new' stuff and
pushes old stuff down below the fold.
3. 1 and 2 possibly both happen together (e.g. tutorials and soft content
in support of new page- though I'd rather get soft content published asap,
e.g. don't delay content for website overhaul)
I also agree that case-studies and user stories are an awesome idea, but I
think that is how people hear about Mahout (are made aware), and then
proceed as I stated above. E.g. case studies and stories are an important
part about how we 'fill the funnel' with people who are interested in
Mahout, but don't want to loose them on the path from 'awareness' to
'user'.
Actual Steps:
1. Again, I am locked and loaded on a batch of content.
vacations/conferences have jammed me up, will start trying to post soon.
(can always spell check later ;) ). More is better- so if you have
something, please push it.
2. Website, we desperately need someone/ some people who has/have expertise
and bandwidth to make this happen. (Design and implementation)
3. This ties into the jekyll integration, which would allow contributors to
help write content for the website (instead of full blown committers).
Really any git based integration, however a number of projects (Flink,
Zeppelin, etc) have used Jekyll so I suppose there is some logic to their
rationale.
4. Logo- want to keep the discussion open on this. I think we are leaning
towards 'keep the name Mahout' but still open to the idea of a logo reboot.
It makes sense we wouldn't change the logo while we're still undecided on
the name, so if someone has a strong opinion on changing the name please
speak up, otherwise lets keep kicking this around.
Just some thoughts I've had after stepping away and coming back to the
issue with a fresh set of eyes, and my .02
tg
Trevor Grant
Data Scientist
https://github.com/rawkintrevo
http://stackexchange.com/users/3002022/rawkintrevo
http://trevorgrant.org
*"Fortunate is he, who is able to know the causes of things." -Virgil*
On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Andrew Evans <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The issue could be competition better grounded in Spark like ND4J and the
> increased popularity of Python. Name changes are really difficult. If you
> think that you have improved over your recent iteration and moved to a
> more competitive platform, then it would be a good idea. Otherwise, try to
> wait and build credibility. At that point, it may even be a good idea to
> keep the old platform and move people to the newly named 'better' platform
> without the risk of losing respect.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > That is an awesome second interpretation.
> >
> > Having voted on the original name I'm 100% biased so take my opinion with
> > a huge grain of salt: on the one hand I think name changes are over rated
> > (anyone remember ethereal?), on the other hand IMHO Mahout is a fairly
> > strong brand representing machine learning at scale.
> >
> > Maybe a combination of any of a new logo, design, documentation, release
> > that drops the zero in "0.x.y", a press release for that release that
> Sally
> > can help you with, a new front page that publishes the new focus of
> > development, maybe a few snippets on that shift in focus that editors can
> > use, dropping deprecated code would already go a long way... Just some
> > random ideas.
> >
> > Isabel
> >
> >
> > Am 25. März 2017 03:21:50 MEZ schrieb Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com
> >:
> > >On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Pat Ferrel <pa...@occamsmachete.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> maybe we should drop the name Mahout altogether.
> > >
> > >
> > >I have been told that there is a cool secondary interpretation of
> > >Mahout as
> > >well.
> > >
> > >I think that the Hebrew word is pronounced roughly like Mahout.
> > >
> > >מַהוּת
> > >
> > >The cool thing is that this word means "essence" or possibly "truth".
> > >So
> > >regardless of the guy riding the elephant, Mahout still has something
> > >to be
> > >said for it.
> > >
> > >(I have no Hebrew, btw)
> > >(real speakers may want to comment here)
> >
> > --
> > Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail
> > gesendet.
>
Re: Marketing
Posted by Andrew Palumbo <ap...@outlook.com>.
+1 on keeping the name.
________________________________
From: Trevor Grant <tr...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 4, 2017 1:49:19 PM
To: user@mahout.apache.org; dev@mahout.apache.org
Subject: Re: Marketing
Re name changes- definitely not in love with the idea.
In my experience there are two main segments of data scientists when
opening a conversation about Apache Mahout:
1) "We don't use map reduce"
2) "I've never heard of it"
2a) "I don't understand math, I just blindly fire 'machine learning'
algorithms at things"
2b) "That sounds amazing!"
For segment 2, a name change will do no good. For 2a, that was me being a
bit hyperbolic, but to some extent 'pre-canned' algorithms and docs will
help.
A user in segment 2b, who then goes searching and trying to learn mahout-
end up reading all the old slide decks/stack overflows/books, and then end
up in segment 1.
In my mind, there is the crux of the problem.
So THAT is who we're really trying to intercept. A name change would be a
lazy but effective way to do it. Calling it Mahout-Samsara sort of hit that
point. The old website with a mish mash of old and new- side by side is
certainly not helping.
Framing it like that, the 'user journey' in my mind is something like a
google search / trying code and finding things on stackoverflow, visiting
the website, and finding 'getting started' tutorials.
So the crux isn't the name so much as it is shepherding users on their
journey. So if not name change (which I'm in no way convinced is necessary
or prudent- but will leave it open for someone to counter point), I think
the following:
1. More blogs / docs / "soft content" on Mahout- per previous post I am
personally working on getting a batch edited and looking right.
2. Website reboot with a re-organization that emphasizes 'new' stuff and
pushes old stuff down below the fold.
3. 1 and 2 possibly both happen together (e.g. tutorials and soft content
in support of new page- though I'd rather get soft content published asap,
e.g. don't delay content for website overhaul)
I also agree that case-studies and user stories are an awesome idea, but I
think that is how people hear about Mahout (are made aware), and then
proceed as I stated above. E.g. case studies and stories are an important
part about how we 'fill the funnel' with people who are interested in
Mahout, but don't want to loose them on the path from 'awareness' to
'user'.
Actual Steps:
1. Again, I am locked and loaded on a batch of content.
vacations/conferences have jammed me up, will start trying to post soon.
(can always spell check later ;) ). More is better- so if you have
something, please push it.
2. Website, we desperately need someone/ some people who has/have expertise
and bandwidth to make this happen. (Design and implementation)
3. This ties into the jekyll integration, which would allow contributors to
help write content for the website (instead of full blown committers).
Really any git based integration, however a number of projects (Flink,
Zeppelin, etc) have used Jekyll so I suppose there is some logic to their
rationale.
4. Logo- want to keep the discussion open on this. I think we are leaning
towards 'keep the name Mahout' but still open to the idea of a logo reboot.
It makes sense we wouldn't change the logo while we're still undecided on
the name, so if someone has a strong opinion on changing the name please
speak up, otherwise lets keep kicking this around.
Just some thoughts I've had after stepping away and coming back to the
issue with a fresh set of eyes, and my .02
tg
Trevor Grant
Data Scientist
https://github.com/rawkintrevo
http://stackexchange.com/users/3002022/rawkintrevo
http://trevorgrant.org
*"Fortunate is he, who is able to know the causes of things." -Virgil*
On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Andrew Evans <as...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The issue could be competition better grounded in Spark like ND4J and the
> increased popularity of Python. Name changes are really difficult. If you
> think that you have improved over your recent iteration and moved to a
> more competitive platform, then it would be a good idea. Otherwise, try to
> wait and build credibility. At that point, it may even be a good idea to
> keep the old platform and move people to the newly named 'better' platform
> without the risk of losing respect.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > That is an awesome second interpretation.
> >
> > Having voted on the original name I'm 100% biased so take my opinion with
> > a huge grain of salt: on the one hand I think name changes are over rated
> > (anyone remember ethereal?), on the other hand IMHO Mahout is a fairly
> > strong brand representing machine learning at scale.
> >
> > Maybe a combination of any of a new logo, design, documentation, release
> > that drops the zero in "0.x.y", a press release for that release that
> Sally
> > can help you with, a new front page that publishes the new focus of
> > development, maybe a few snippets on that shift in focus that editors can
> > use, dropping deprecated code would already go a long way... Just some
> > random ideas.
> >
> > Isabel
> >
> >
> > Am 25. März 2017 03:21:50 MEZ schrieb Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com
> >:
> > >On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Pat Ferrel <pa...@occamsmachete.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> maybe we should drop the name Mahout altogether.
> > >
> > >
> > >I have been told that there is a cool secondary interpretation of
> > >Mahout as
> > >well.
> > >
> > >I think that the Hebrew word is pronounced roughly like Mahout.
> > >
> > >מַהוּת
> > >
> > >The cool thing is that this word means "essence" or possibly "truth".
> > >So
> > >regardless of the guy riding the elephant, Mahout still has something
> > >to be
> > >said for it.
> > >
> > >(I have no Hebrew, btw)
> > >(real speakers may want to comment here)
> >
> > --
> > Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail
> > gesendet.
>