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Posted to dev@karaf.apache.org by Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net> on 2022/11/28 10:26:43 UTC
[PROPOSAL] Create new Apache project proposal with Minho
Hi guys,
In regards of the discussion we have around Karaf log, the different
comments about Karaf vs Minho, clearly, we have two different visions
and communities:
- the Karaf community very likes Karaf as it is today (powered by
OSGi) and not willing to move to something else
- the Minho community would be "decoupled" from existing Karaf
community, coming from other projects like spring boot, microprofile,
etc
So, it means that we would have two different communities in the Karaf
"umbrella", which is not ideal, and actually it can cause branding
issues.
We can have the issue where Minho at Karaf will "block" some users and
contributors because they will "couple" Minho to Karaf (which is not
the case).
So, IMHO, it would be cleaner to keep Karaf to what it is today (an
OSGi runtime) and move Minho to its own project.
I would call for a vote to remove Minho from Karaf and create a
project proposal based on it (and a couple of additional features).
Thoughts ?
Regards
JB
Re: [PROPOSAL] Create new Apache project proposal with Minho
Posted by Francois Papon <fr...@openobject.fr>.
Fully agree :)
On 29/11/2022 08:11, Grzegorz Grzybek wrote:
> Hello
>
> +1 for separation.
>
> Why? I started an experiment - Pax Web 10 can quite easily run on latest
> JakartaEE 10+ servers (Jetty 11, Tomcat 10, Undertow 2.3), because there's
> continued work on OSGi CMPN 8.1 - Karaf (and OSGi in general) became quite
> "conservative" project (in strict, good sense of what "conservatism" is -
> preservation of working, stable institutions, looking at incoming changes
> and absorbing them in evolutionary way).
>
> In this spirit, I imagine that some (considerable number of) people,
> enterprises use Karaf/OSGi and are happy with it. These groups react only
> when something is removed/deprecated/no longer supported. So if we were to
> slowly transition "Karaf on OSGi" to "Karaf/Minho on anything, with less
> emphasis on OSGi", we could have more and more voices that we should keep
> what's working.
>
> In other words - Minho is a good project where the underlying philosophy is
> less relevant (Spring, OSGi, ...), but I think it's better to keep Karaf as
> is - "application server running on OSGi kernel - Felix/Equinox".
>
> kind regards
> Grzegorz Grzybek
>
> wt., 29 lis 2022 o 07:14 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> napisał(a):
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> The more we are moving forward, the move we are moving away from Karaf
>> so +1 to make a proposal for a new project.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> François
>>
>> On 28/11/2022 11:26, Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> In regards of the discussion we have around Karaf log, the different
>>> comments about Karaf vs Minho, clearly, we have two different visions
>>> and communities:
>>> - the Karaf community very likes Karaf as it is today (powered by
>>> OSGi) and not willing to move to something else
>>> - the Minho community would be "decoupled" from existing Karaf
>>> community, coming from other projects like spring boot, microprofile,
>>> etc
>>>
>>> So, it means that we would have two different communities in the Karaf
>>> "umbrella", which is not ideal, and actually it can cause branding
>>> issues.
>>> We can have the issue where Minho at Karaf will "block" some users and
>>> contributors because they will "couple" Minho to Karaf (which is not
>>> the case).
>>>
>>> So, IMHO, it would be cleaner to keep Karaf to what it is today (an
>>> OSGi runtime) and move Minho to its own project.
>>>
>>> I would call for a vote to remove Minho from Karaf and create a
>>> project proposal based on it (and a couple of additional features).
>>>
>>> Thoughts ?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> JB
>> --
>> --
>> FrançoisT
>>
>>
Re: [PROPOSAL] Create new Apache project proposal with Minho
Posted by Grzegorz Grzybek <gr...@gmail.com>.
Hello
+1 for separation.
Why? I started an experiment - Pax Web 10 can quite easily run on latest
JakartaEE 10+ servers (Jetty 11, Tomcat 10, Undertow 2.3), because there's
continued work on OSGi CMPN 8.1 - Karaf (and OSGi in general) became quite
"conservative" project (in strict, good sense of what "conservatism" is -
preservation of working, stable institutions, looking at incoming changes
and absorbing them in evolutionary way).
In this spirit, I imagine that some (considerable number of) people,
enterprises use Karaf/OSGi and are happy with it. These groups react only
when something is removed/deprecated/no longer supported. So if we were to
slowly transition "Karaf on OSGi" to "Karaf/Minho on anything, with less
emphasis on OSGi", we could have more and more voices that we should keep
what's working.
In other words - Minho is a good project where the underlying philosophy is
less relevant (Spring, OSGi, ...), but I think it's better to keep Karaf as
is - "application server running on OSGi kernel - Felix/Equinox".
kind regards
Grzegorz Grzybek
wt., 29 lis 2022 o 07:14 fpapon <fp...@apache.org> napisał(a):
> Hi,
>
> The more we are moving forward, the move we are moving away from Karaf
> so +1 to make a proposal for a new project.
>
> Regards,
>
> François
>
> On 28/11/2022 11:26, Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > In regards of the discussion we have around Karaf log, the different
> > comments about Karaf vs Minho, clearly, we have two different visions
> > and communities:
> > - the Karaf community very likes Karaf as it is today (powered by
> > OSGi) and not willing to move to something else
> > - the Minho community would be "decoupled" from existing Karaf
> > community, coming from other projects like spring boot, microprofile,
> > etc
> >
> > So, it means that we would have two different communities in the Karaf
> > "umbrella", which is not ideal, and actually it can cause branding
> > issues.
> > We can have the issue where Minho at Karaf will "block" some users and
> > contributors because they will "couple" Minho to Karaf (which is not
> > the case).
> >
> > So, IMHO, it would be cleaner to keep Karaf to what it is today (an
> > OSGi runtime) and move Minho to its own project.
> >
> > I would call for a vote to remove Minho from Karaf and create a
> > project proposal based on it (and a couple of additional features).
> >
> > Thoughts ?
> >
> > Regards
> > JB
>
> --
> --
> FrançoisT
>
>
Re: [PROPOSAL] Create new Apache project proposal with Minho
Posted by fpapon <fp...@apache.org>.
Hi,
The more we are moving forward, the move we are moving away from Karaf
so +1 to make a proposal for a new project.
Regards,
François
On 28/11/2022 11:26, Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> In regards of the discussion we have around Karaf log, the different
> comments about Karaf vs Minho, clearly, we have two different visions
> and communities:
> - the Karaf community very likes Karaf as it is today (powered by
> OSGi) and not willing to move to something else
> - the Minho community would be "decoupled" from existing Karaf
> community, coming from other projects like spring boot, microprofile,
> etc
>
> So, it means that we would have two different communities in the Karaf
> "umbrella", which is not ideal, and actually it can cause branding
> issues.
> We can have the issue where Minho at Karaf will "block" some users and
> contributors because they will "couple" Minho to Karaf (which is not
> the case).
>
> So, IMHO, it would be cleaner to keep Karaf to what it is today (an
> OSGi runtime) and move Minho to its own project.
>
> I would call for a vote to remove Minho from Karaf and create a
> project proposal based on it (and a couple of additional features).
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> Regards
> JB
--
--
FrançoisT
Re: [PROPOSAL] Create new Apache project proposal with Minho
Posted by Steinar Bang <sb...@dod.no>.
>>>>> Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>:
> I would call for a vote to remove Minho from Karaf and create a
> project proposal based on it (and a couple of additional features).
> Thoughts ?
+1 on having a vote
(or have you already called the vote? Then +1 (non-binding) from me, in favour of the split)
Re: [PROPOSAL] Create new Apache project proposal with Minho
Posted by Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>.
+1, makes sense since the adoption here leads to some issues which does not
look like trivial to solve community wise.
Romain Manni-Bucau
@rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> | Blog
<https://rmannibucau.metawerx.net/> | Old Blog
<http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github <https://github.com/rmannibucau> |
LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book
<https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance>
Le lun. 28 nov. 2022 à 11:27, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net> a
écrit :
> Hi guys,
>
> In regards of the discussion we have around Karaf log, the different
> comments about Karaf vs Minho, clearly, we have two different visions
> and communities:
> - the Karaf community very likes Karaf as it is today (powered by
> OSGi) and not willing to move to something else
> - the Minho community would be "decoupled" from existing Karaf
> community, coming from other projects like spring boot, microprofile,
> etc
>
> So, it means that we would have two different communities in the Karaf
> "umbrella", which is not ideal, and actually it can cause branding
> issues.
> We can have the issue where Minho at Karaf will "block" some users and
> contributors because they will "couple" Minho to Karaf (which is not
> the case).
>
> So, IMHO, it would be cleaner to keep Karaf to what it is today (an
> OSGi runtime) and move Minho to its own project.
>
> I would call for a vote to remove Minho from Karaf and create a
> project proposal based on it (and a couple of additional features).
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> Regards
> JB
>