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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu> on 2003/12/23 21:43:24 UTC
Virtual Commons!!!!! (was Re: What is Jakarta Commons?)
Hello all,
The ultimate goal of any "Commons" is to develop a shared codebase of
components that are not large enough to be maintained on their own, and
reduce "replication of functionality" in separate projects. This is not
only "integral" to a healthy developing codebase at Apache, it is
necessary for maturation of the Apache codebase from a "bunch of
widgets" to a "well oiled machine".
I personally think that the idea of "Commons" should become more
"Virtual" and "Evolutionary" in nature. That maybe there should be less
"restrictions" on its location and development. Forget the issues of
being programming language "agnostic" or programming language "specific"
and consider the value that would be "gained" by sharing such communities.
For instance, if theres ever the case that "xml commons" and "jakarta
commons" could become a shared community, it would produce the following
benefits:
1.) A reduction in "duplication" of content between the xml and jakarta
communities.
2.) A shared usage of the codebases would produce tools that are clearly
defined and work well together.
3.) An optimization of programmer effort, time spent by programmers
separately maintaining duplicate codesbases is reduced.
With this in mind, the idea of an "Apache Commons" becomes logical.
BUT... not as a place that all "Commons" get migrated to and housed at
under one PMC, but more as a "Virtual Collection" of all the "Commons"
projects at Apache. Literally, just being a "Portal" to the individual
Commons sites. In fact, instead of migrating all "Common" code to "One
place", maybe it would be more logical to allow it to be maintained
under the foundry or TLP project that produced it and simple provide
such a "Symlinking" of the codebase into the Commons such that other
projects are aware of its existence and availability.
Apache Commons:
--> Jakarta Commons
--> subprojects
--> XML Commons
--> subprojects
--> TLP Project
--> TLP projects shared common codebase.
This way shared code is managed and packaged by its creators, but
advertised for reusage by the Commons.
Eventually alot of valuable lessons learned by the various commons
projects would give rise to a standard project layout and packaging
requirement for a codebase which is to be maintained as a Commons
Codebase. In essence, this is not much different conceptually than the
idea of COM and dynamic linking. The goal being, not to make every
project house its common codebase in one specific location (which is
totally unscalable) but to define logical rules for the "structure",
"building", "packaging" of a Common Component such that it can be reused
by other tools. In reality, isn't this what is being promoted through
Maven, both with the idea of a Maven Repository and a Standard project
layout and building strategy?
With this in mind I say the following:
1. "Common Codebases" can (and should) be maintained anywhere in Apache,
but be advertised in a registered location (like Apache Commons) and
yet be maintained by their individual developers in their location of
origin.
2. "Common Codebases" should be structured, built and packaged based on
a "clearly defined specification" such that they can be published in
repositories and easily rebuild and repackaged.
-Mark Diggory
--
Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://osprey.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Re: Virtual Commons!!!!! (was Re: What is Jakarta Commons?)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
Hell ya. We can start this right away. Great idea, Geir.
"Now why didn't I think of that?" :-)
Cheers,
-g
p.s. note that Jakarta acting as a Java-based codebase federation is a
separate matter; the J PMC can deal with that...
On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 09:12:34PM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> Why don't the various commons groups in the ASF just have the AC PMC
> add things on the A-C site and 'federate' that way? The respective
> PMCs would still do what they do - oversee the projects - and the AC
> PMC can maintain the website.
>
> geir
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2003, at 4:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > Mark R. Diggory wrote:
> >
> >> I personally think that the idea of "Commons" should become more
> >> "Virtual" and "Evolutionary" in nature.
> >
> >> if theres ever the case that "xml commons" and "jakarta commons"
> >> could become a shared community, it would produce the following
> >> benefits
> >
> > Mark, what you are saying is basically supporting the notion of
> > decoupling
> > web presence from project oversight, and supporting the idea of
> > federation
> > instead of containment.
> >
> > A PMC oversees the code, resources, community for a project. There is
> > nothing that prevents them from federating to produce portals as you
> > describe. I have suggested it recently as one good approach.
> >
> > Without going into details right now comparing various plans, let me
> > note
> > that Federation is one approach being discussed on Jakarta General as
> > part
> > of a larger reorganization discussion.
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
> geir@4quarters.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: Virtual Commons!!!!! (was Re: What is Jakarta Commons?)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
Hell ya. We can start this right away. Great idea, Geir.
"Now why didn't I think of that?" :-)
Cheers,
-g
p.s. note that Jakarta acting as a Java-based codebase federation is a
separate matter; the J PMC can deal with that...
On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 09:12:34PM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> Why don't the various commons groups in the ASF just have the AC PMC
> add things on the A-C site and 'federate' that way? The respective
> PMCs would still do what they do - oversee the projects - and the AC
> PMC can maintain the website.
>
> geir
>
>
> On Dec 23, 2003, at 4:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > Mark R. Diggory wrote:
> >
> >> I personally think that the idea of "Commons" should become more
> >> "Virtual" and "Evolutionary" in nature.
> >
> >> if theres ever the case that "xml commons" and "jakarta commons"
> >> could become a shared community, it would produce the following
> >> benefits
> >
> > Mark, what you are saying is basically supporting the notion of
> > decoupling
> > web presence from project oversight, and supporting the idea of
> > federation
> > instead of containment.
> >
> > A PMC oversees the code, resources, community for a project. There is
> > nothing that prevents them from federating to produce portals as you
> > describe. I have suggested it recently as one good approach.
> >
> > Without going into details right now comparing various plans, let me
> > note
> > that Federation is one approach being discussed on Jakarta General as
> > part
> > of a larger reorganization discussion.
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
> geir@4quarters.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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RE: Virtual Commons!!!!! (was Re: What is Jakarta Commons?)
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
Quoting "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>:
> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
> > Why don't the various commons groups in the ASF just have the AC PMC
> > add things on the A-C site and 'federate' that way? The respective
> > PMCs would still do what they do - oversee the projects - and the AC
> > PMC can maintain the website.
>
> I don't see why not. That seems like a reasonable example, and way to
> explore this idea we've been talking about. Regardless of whether the PMC
> is Jakarta, XML, WS, A-C, J-C, etc. the A-C site could serve as a portal to
> commons code.
>
That can happen with *zero* organizational changes too.
Greg: community != developers
Craig: community != website
:-)
> FWIW, if codec wants to start using Subversion, why not? I think that it is
> important for everyone to start being exposed to it, even vicariously via
> seeing discussion and commit notices.
>
That's up to the codec committers to decide, if we assume that j-c is really a
fragmented bunch of mini-communities. If we think there is an overall j-c
community, IMHO that's the sort of thing one would assume is common to all of
them.
> --- Noel
>
Craig
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RE: Virtual Commons!!!!! (was Re: What is Jakarta Commons?)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> Why don't the various commons groups in the ASF just have the AC PMC
> add things on the A-C site and 'federate' that way? The respective
> PMCs would still do what they do - oversee the projects - and the AC
> PMC can maintain the website.
I don't see why not. That seems like a reasonable example, and way to
explore this idea we've been talking about. Regardless of whether the PMC
is Jakarta, XML, WS, A-C, J-C, etc. the A-C site could serve as a portal to
commons code.
FWIW, if codec wants to start using Subversion, why not? I think that it is
important for everyone to start being exposed to it, even vicariously via
seeing discussion and commit notices.
--- Noel
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Re: Virtual Commons!!!!! (was Re: What is Jakarta Commons?)
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
Why don't the various commons groups in the ASF just have the AC PMC
add things on the A-C site and 'federate' that way? The respective
PMCs would still do what they do - oversee the projects - and the AC
PMC can maintain the website.
geir
On Dec 23, 2003, at 4:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Mark R. Diggory wrote:
>
>> I personally think that the idea of "Commons" should become more
>> "Virtual" and "Evolutionary" in nature.
>
>> if theres ever the case that "xml commons" and "jakarta commons"
>> could become a shared community, it would produce the following
>> benefits
>
> Mark, what you are saying is basically supporting the notion of
> decoupling
> web presence from project oversight, and supporting the idea of
> federation
> instead of containment.
>
> A PMC oversees the code, resources, community for a project. There is
> nothing that prevents them from federating to produce portals as you
> describe. I have suggested it recently as one good approach.
>
> Without going into details right now comparing various plans, let me
> note
> that Federation is one approach being discussed on Jakarta General as
> part
> of a larger reorganization discussion.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Virtual Commons!!!!! (was Re: What is Jakarta Commons?)
Posted by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Mark R. Diggory wrote:
>
>
>>I personally think that the idea of "Commons" should become more
>>"Virtual" and "Evolutionary" in nature.
>
>
>>if theres ever the case that "xml commons" and "jakarta commons"
>>could become a shared community, it would produce the following
>>benefits
>
>
> Mark, what you are saying is basically supporting the notion of decoupling
> web presence from project oversight, and supporting the idea of federation
> instead of containment.
>
> A PMC oversees the code, resources, community for a project. There is
> nothing that prevents them from federating to produce portals as you
> describe. I have suggested it recently as one good approach.
>
> Without going into details right now comparing various plans, let me note
> that Federation is one approach being discussed on Jakarta General as part
> of a larger reorganization discussion.
>
> --- Noel
Well, I think thats a great idea and would wholly support such an
endeavor. I think this *federation* idea would eventually lead to a
solution that was really scalable and met everyones needs.
To note: What I was presenting actually extends beyond "web presence"
and more into project structure, packaging and deployment. Web presence
is one thing, componentization and ease of reuse is more integral to how
Apache projects "relate" to one another and are successfully reused.
With J-C, the migration to project management with Maven is really
helping to standardize the structure and packaging of the components.
Eventually, if this can benefit other TLP's and their subprojects, then
that just scales the reusability out even further, again without having
to "restructure" anything really at all. And, I suspect this even goes
further, many projects on Sourceforge and java.net are relying on this
componentization and reusing these components even outside of Apache. I
know I have. Kudos to those Maven Guys.
-Mark
--
Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://osprey.hmdc.harvard.edu
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RE: Virtual Commons!!!!! (was Re: What is Jakarta Commons?)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Mark R. Diggory wrote:
> I personally think that the idea of "Commons" should become more
> "Virtual" and "Evolutionary" in nature.
> if theres ever the case that "xml commons" and "jakarta commons"
> could become a shared community, it would produce the following
> benefits
Mark, what you are saying is basically supporting the notion of decoupling
web presence from project oversight, and supporting the idea of federation
instead of containment.
A PMC oversees the code, resources, community for a project. There is
nothing that prevents them from federating to produce portals as you
describe. I have suggested it recently as one good approach.
Without going into details right now comparing various plans, let me note
that Federation is one approach being discussed on Jakarta General as part
of a larger reorganization discussion.
--- Noel
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