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Posted to dev@flex.apache.org by Blaine Bradbury <bl...@blainebradbury.com> on 2012/10/02 03:10:30 UTC
Re: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of waiting.]
On the Roadmap issue:
I think it would be EXTREMELY useful to have a device which could show the
current (as close to the present knowledge as is really manageable)
trajectory that the Apache Flex project is taking. On any given day, there
are folks hard at work contributing new things with the intention to finish
them. They may never do so. In some cases, they may have
expressed commitment in their own right... beyond any Apache requirement
per se. In other cases, the work could have a lot of support in the
community and therefore pretty likely to move forward.
Bottom line is that these ongoing efforts do tell a story and show a
certain geographical map toward an apparent goal that is shaped as it
happens. I would love to see a Road map of this geography. I would love
to share this story with customers and colleagues. I also believe that
folks who wish simply to consume the software and develop applications out
in the market place could use this type of tool. And those folks on some
level are the people who will give Apache Flex a future by keeping code in
production in the market place... possibly providing jobs.
A Road map shows details of roads in a handy overview where one can
rationalize roads according to existing geography, yes? A Road map is a
device one might use to help one get from one place to another using roads.
The information in a Road map is only as good as it as at the time of
publishing. New Roads are created all the time. New editions of a Road
map are published to show changes. In our case, the Road map could show
intended paths... in italics or some such demarcation. An idea list or a
wish list sounds hypothetical, not intentional.
Road map is easier to say than *"What we are planning to do at the moment
before we individually or collectively decide to change our minds List."* But
I do think this disclaimer could be in nice obvious print just below the
heading :)
Also to note. The content of the Road map will not magically post itself
somewhere, and it will probably have little value unless people contribute
or share. This is very much like the rest of the Apache Flex ideal, yes?
The folks who have wanted a Road map have only asked that it be allowed to
exist if they create it, so that they might try to make it work. The more
obvious things being worked on are mostly likely the content targets
anyhow. A single source for logging feature progress and showing revision
history is just easier for some than weeding through mountains of e-mail
and monthly status summaries. Why not allow them to put a page up and
status how they see fit. If it sucks... kill it later.
Lastly, I like the term "Road map", but I understand the objections. I am
also very protective of language that might be under attack. Corporate
america does not get to monopolize the term and force the image of
stressful project management and quarterly timelines onto the term for the
rest of us unless we let them.
bb
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>wrote:
> It looks like it generated a roadmap.html page that it didn't clean up when
> the page was renamed.
>
> Not sure if it can be removed.
>
> -omar
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Raju Bitter <
> r.bitter.mailinglists@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Omar. That's what I guessed, I remember that the roadmap wiki
> > page was changed long ago. Strange that the old page is still online.
> >
> > - Raju
> >
>
Re: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of waiting.]
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Tuesday, October 2, 2012, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:10 AM, Blaine Bradbury
> <blaine@blainebradbury.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > ...I think it would be EXTREMELY useful to have a device which could
> show the
> > current (as close to the present knowledge as is really manageable)
> > trajectory that the Apache Flex project is taking...
>
> From my experience with other Apache projects, the best way to achieve
> that is by using the issue tracker in a way that reflects people's
> actual actions.
>
> A contributor creates issues at
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FLEX for things that they intend
> to work on, marks them as "wishlist" if not working on them
> immediately, updates their status as they go on working on them. Using
> hierarchical issues ("blocked by") allows you to group them in logical
> blocks and see which issues need to be fixed to reach a given goal.
> Each issue can also serve as a mini-documentation of the feature in
> question, by including a description of the use case and test
> scenarios.
>
> Combined with a high-level overview of the general direction that
> active contributors want the project to take, this is IMO the best way
> of exposing the "project trajectory", in real time.
>
> -Bertrand
>
Hadn't thought about that. JIRA makes the most sense to me.
-omar
Re: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of waiting.]
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 3:10 AM, Blaine Bradbury
<bl...@blainebradbury.com> wrote:
> ...I think it would be EXTREMELY useful to have a device which could show the
> current (as close to the present knowledge as is really manageable)
> trajectory that the Apache Flex project is taking...
>From my experience with other Apache projects, the best way to achieve
that is by using the issue tracker in a way that reflects people's
actual actions.
A contributor creates issues at
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FLEX for things that they intend
to work on, marks them as "wishlist" if not working on them
immediately, updates their status as they go on working on them. Using
hierarchical issues ("blocked by") allows you to group them in logical
blocks and see which issues need to be fixed to reach a given goal.
Each issue can also serve as a mini-documentation of the feature in
question, by including a description of the use case and test
scenarios.
Combined with a high-level overview of the general direction that
active contributors want the project to take, this is IMO the best way
of exposing the "project trajectory", in real time.
-Bertrand
Re: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of
waiting.]
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 10/1/12 11:21 PM, "Métairie, Stéphane" <se...@ebu.ch> wrote:
> This page shown a rudimentary but interesting Roadmap that doesn't come
> magically by itself there ;)
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Status+of+Project
>
> I'm insisting that Decision Maker won't drill down the web site to reach the
> confluence wiki to find this page, won't subscribe to this list, etc.
> The final aim (for a volunteer-based project too) is the Flex life continue,
> isn't it?
If we need to make it more apparent as to the status, I'm willing to listen
to ideas on how we can do that. The Spoon folks publish status reports with
regularity. Maybe they just need to be linked.
I think "roadmap" implies a promise of the future, which is why there is
pushback against having one. But I am still very interested to hear from
the Decision Makers as to what they want to see Apache Flex do. There was a
survey done recently by a third party, but it was mostly focused on
contributions from Adobe.
And me? For now my first priority is to get the Mustella tests running on
FlashPlayer on Mac and Win so folks can validate changes to the framework,
then shepherd the FalconJS donation. But that can certainly be influenced
by input from Decision Makers.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
RE: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of
waiting.]
Posted by Métairie,
Stéphane <se...@ebu.ch>.
I think you should not be tensed with this Roadmap, and nobody will spend his time to update a timeline ... the status of the project is sufficient, perhaps more visible would be better. Just my opinion ;)
"But people committing, making patches and contributing will."
We agree.
-----Original Message-----
From: Omar Gonzalez [mailto:omarg.developer@gmail.com]
Sent: mardi, 2. octobre 2012 08:28
To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of waiting.]
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Métairie, Stéphane <se...@ebu.ch>wrote:
> This page shown a rudimentary but interesting Roadmap that doesn't
> come magically by itself there ;)
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Status+of+Project
No, it doesn't automatically appear there. People that are working on Flex have to update it, but guess what? Nobody is updating it. They're probably not updating it because they would rather spend their time working on Flex.
As a committer I hardly have time to mess with Flex, when I do have that time, I am not going to spend it playing with a Wiki. I'm going to spend it playing with Flex. I'm sure others feel similar, or this status page would have more information in it.
>
>
> I'm insisting that Decision Maker won't drill down the web site to
> reach the confluence wiki to find this page, won't subscribe to this list, etc.
>
So if a decision maker isn't going to look for the "Status of Project" page then what makes you think they'll drill down the web site to search for a roadmap?
> The final aim (for a volunteer-based project too) is the Flex life
> continue, isn't it?
>
>
Yes. A roadmap isn't going to prolong the life of Flex. But people committing, making patches and contributing will.
Omar Gonzalez
s9tpepper@apache.org
Apache Flex PPMC
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Re: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of
waiting.]
Posted by Michael Schmalle <ap...@teotigraphix.com>.
Just chiming into this dead horse.
The problem with projects that get donated to Apache from an
established Enterprise is what has previously happened in this
project, warped perspectives.
Roadmaps in the English language say "there are roads to travel". In
Apache, we say "roads, who needs roads where we are going there are no
roads...". Oh I know that was cheesy and I'm not that geekey but the
sentiment is true.
I look at my experience, I have developed Flex components for about 8
years. Hum, my road map in life says, keep developing Flex components.
But the great thing about this project is I can do whatever I want to
do and right now I am working with the new Falcon compiler.
In the enterprise world, smart educated university graduates would
look at me and say, he is wasting time, killing the project since he
is not giving us the "Missing Flex components", that is priority over
a compiler that doesn't even parse MXML correctly yet!
I left this project for 8 months thinking my days of Flex was over.
Mysteriously life brought me back right when the compiler was donated.
You see, opensource at Apache has to do with innovation and
experimentation with no rules.
In the spirit of honesty, sometimes I look at all the component bugs
and requests and say to myself, you know I could do a lot here. I have
a lot of experience to move this forward. But the renegade in me says,
I'm working on the compiler because it brings joy to me. This is why
Apache does not use roadmaps, they know taking away developers joy in
project means certain death and a ghost town soon to follow.
Mike
Quoting Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>:
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Métairie, Stéphane <se...@ebu.ch>wrote:
>
>> This page shown a rudimentary but interesting Roadmap that doesn't come
>> magically by itself there ;)
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Status+of+Project
>
>
> No, it doesn't automatically appear there. People that are working on Flex
> have to update it, but guess what? Nobody is updating it. They're probably
> not updating it because they would rather spend their time working on Flex.
> As a committer I hardly have time to mess with Flex, when I do have that
> time, I am not going to spend it playing with a Wiki. I'm going to spend it
> playing with Flex. I'm sure others feel similar, or this status page would
> have more information in it.
>
>
>>
>>
>> I'm insisting that Decision Maker won't drill down the web site to reach
>> the confluence wiki to find this page, won't subscribe to this list, etc.
>>
>
> So if a decision maker isn't going to look for the "Status of Project" page
> then what makes you think they'll drill down the web site to search for a
> roadmap?
>
>
>> The final aim (for a volunteer-based project too) is the Flex life
>> continue, isn't it?
>>
>>
> Yes. A roadmap isn't going to prolong the life of Flex. But people
> committing, making patches and contributing will.
>
>
>
> Omar Gonzalez
> s9tpepper@apache.org
> Apache Flex PPMC
>
--
Michael Schmalle - Teoti Graphix, LLC
http://www.teotigraphix.com
http://blog.teotigraphix.com
Re: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of waiting.]
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Métairie, Stéphane <se...@ebu.ch>wrote:
> This page shown a rudimentary but interesting Roadmap that doesn't come
> magically by itself there ;)
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Status+of+Project
No, it doesn't automatically appear there. People that are working on Flex
have to update it, but guess what? Nobody is updating it. They're probably
not updating it because they would rather spend their time working on Flex.
As a committer I hardly have time to mess with Flex, when I do have that
time, I am not going to spend it playing with a Wiki. I'm going to spend it
playing with Flex. I'm sure others feel similar, or this status page would
have more information in it.
>
>
> I'm insisting that Decision Maker won't drill down the web site to reach
> the confluence wiki to find this page, won't subscribe to this list, etc.
>
So if a decision maker isn't going to look for the "Status of Project" page
then what makes you think they'll drill down the web site to search for a
roadmap?
> The final aim (for a volunteer-based project too) is the Flex life
> continue, isn't it?
>
>
Yes. A roadmap isn't going to prolong the life of Flex. But people
committing, making patches and contributing will.
Omar Gonzalez
s9tpepper@apache.org
Apache Flex PPMC
RE: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of
waiting.]
Posted by Métairie,
Stéphane <se...@ebu.ch>.
This page shown a rudimentary but interesting Roadmap that doesn't come magically by itself there ;)
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Status+of+Project
I'm insisting that Decision Maker won't drill down the web site to reach the confluence wiki to find this page, won't subscribe to this list, etc.
The final aim (for a volunteer-based project too) is the Flex life continue, isn't it?
-----Original Message-----
From: Omar Gonzalez [mailto:omarg.developer@gmail.com]
Sent: mardi, 2. octobre 2012 08:05
To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of waiting.]
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Métairie, Stéphane <se...@ebu.ch>wrote:
> For all observers (and FLEX orphans) the roadmap, or some milestones,
> publicly shared will be helpful and ... comforting : many IT
> decision-maker wonder if they have to continue with Flex or not.
>
>
There's nothing to share publicly because all of the information is already public. The Apache Flex team does not discuss project matters in a private space.
If "observers (and FLEX orphans)" have questions about Apache Flex they are more than welcome to post them to flex-users@incubator.apache.org and I am sure all of their questions will be answered. I'm sure that will provide the comfort they seek.
There isn't going to be a Roadmap. We have discussed this to no end apparently. Not sure how else to say this, its a volunteer-based project that sees participants come and go as they lose or gain interests. There is no roadmap because we are not employees and we all have our own aspirations for Flex.
If we came up with a "Roadmap", and then all of the individuals that came up with the list of items suddenly lose interest in Apache Flex, then new and returning committers are now "on the hook" for something that they might not have interest in or want to be committed to.
It's just not happening.
-omar
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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
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Re: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of waiting.]
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Métairie, Stéphane <se...@ebu.ch>wrote:
> For all observers (and FLEX orphans) the roadmap, or some milestones,
> publicly shared will be helpful and ... comforting : many IT decision-maker
> wonder if they have to continue with Flex or not.
>
>
There's nothing to share publicly because all of the information is already
public. The Apache Flex team does not discuss project matters in a private
space.
If "observers (and FLEX orphans)" have questions about Apache Flex they
are more than welcome to post them to flex-users@incubator.apache.org and I
am sure all of their questions will be answered. I'm sure that will provide
the comfort they seek.
There isn't going to be a Roadmap. We have discussed this to no end
apparently. Not sure how else to say this, its a volunteer-based project
that sees participants come and go as they lose or gain interests. There is
no roadmap because we are not employees and we all have our own aspirations
for Flex.
If we came up with a "Roadmap", and then all of the individuals that came
up with the list of items suddenly lose interest in Apache Flex, then new
and returning committers are now "on the hook" for something that they
might not have interest in or want to be committed to.
It's just not happening.
-omar
RE: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of
waiting.]
Posted by Métairie,
Stéphane <se...@ebu.ch>.
For all observers (and FLEX orphans) the roadmap, or some milestones, publicly shared will be helpful and ... comforting : many IT decision-maker wonder if they have to continue with Flex or not.
-----Original Message-----
From: Omar Gonzalez [mailto:omarg.developer@gmail.com]
Sent: mardi, 2. octobre 2012 03:54
To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of waiting.]
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Blaine Bradbury
<bl...@blainebradbury.com>wrote:
> On the Roadmap issue:
>
> I think it would be EXTREMELY useful to have a device which could show
> the current (as close to the present knowledge as is really
> manageable) trajectory that the Apache Flex project is taking. On any
> given day, there are folks hard at work contributing new things with
> the intention to finish them. They may never do so. In some cases,
> they may have expressed commitment in their own right... beyond any
> Apache requirement per se. In other cases, the work could have a lot
> of support in the community and therefore pretty likely to move forward.
>
> Bottom line is that these ongoing efforts do tell a story and show a
> certain geographical map toward an apparent goal that is shaped as it
> happens. I would love to see a Road map of this geography. I would
> love to share this story with customers and colleagues. I also
> believe that folks who wish simply to consume the software and develop
> applications out in the market place could use this type of tool. And
> those folks on some level are the people who will give Apache Flex a
> future by keeping code in production in the market place... possibly providing jobs.
>
> A Road map shows details of roads in a handy overview where one can
> rationalize roads according to existing geography, yes? A Road map is
> a device one might use to help one get from one place to another using roads.
> The information in a Road map is only as good as it as at the time of
> publishing. New Roads are created all the time. New editions of a
> Road map are published to show changes. In our case, the Road map
> could show intended paths... in italics or some such demarcation. An
> idea list or a wish list sounds hypothetical, not intentional.
>
> Road map is easier to say than *"What we are planning to do at the
> moment before we individually or collectively decide to change our
> minds List."* But I do think this disclaimer could be in nice obvious
> print just below the heading :)
>
> Also to note. The content of the Road map will not magically post
> itself somewhere, and it will probably have little value unless people
> contribute or share. This is very much like the rest of the Apache Flex ideal, yes?
> The folks who have wanted a Road map have only asked that it be
> allowed to exist if they create it, so that they might try to make it
> work. The more obvious things being worked on are mostly likely the
> content targets anyhow. A single source for logging feature progress
> and showing revision history is just easier for some than weeding
> through mountains of e-mail and monthly status summaries. Why not
> allow them to put a page up and status how they see fit. If it sucks... kill it later.
>
> Lastly, I like the term "Road map", but I understand the objections.
> I am also very protective of language that might be under attack.
> Corporate america does not get to monopolize the term and force the
> image of stressful project management and quarterly timelines onto the
> term for the rest of us unless we let them.
>
> bb
The "Roadmap" changed to
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Status+of+Project
As you can see it is not very populated, my guess would be that Apache Flex volunteers/committers are busy working on things that are of their interest, which is not to try and compile and maintain a Roadmap that nobody is going to adhere to.
We've had this discussion ad nauseam, I think it basically boils down to a couple of things:
1.) This is a volunteer based project, people are in and out of this project, so it is very difficult to either a.) agree to a "roadmap" and b.) keep some web page updated with information regarding what everyone is doing.
2.) The consensus has pretty much been against the creation of a roadmap page due to #1 as well as other things, such as the stigma you alluded to that has been established as the expectations for a roadmap.
You stated it yourself, "The content of the Road map will not magically post itself somewhere, and it will probably have little value unless people contribute or share", and as you can see by the Status of Project page, no one is updating it even tho we've agreed not to call it Roadmap but still have the type of information people are looking for in a "roadmap". The truth of the matter is when people volunteer their time to the project they want to work on what interests them, I would put my money on that most of the committers would rather be coding and getting things done as opposed to trying to keep up some roadmap/status page.
If people really want to know what's going on just check out the repository and look through the project history. Or they could search through the mail archives, it sounds shitty but that's just the way it is.
Bottom line is there seems to be very little interest in maintaing a web page, and much more interest in just getting shit done. In an ideal world we would have all the time in the world to maintain roadmaps and status pages and contribute to the project etc etc, but we don't have all that time and so people will continue to just work on stuff they want to. When that stuff is ready they can move it from their whiteboards or personal repositories/forks and submit them as patches.
As Nike would say... Just do it.
Omar Gonzalez
s9tpepper@apache.org
Apache Flex PPMC
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by the mailgateway
**************************************************
Re: Apache Flex roadmap page in the wiki [was: I was tired of waiting.]
Posted by Omar Gonzalez <om...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Blaine Bradbury
<bl...@blainebradbury.com>wrote:
> On the Roadmap issue:
>
> I think it would be EXTREMELY useful to have a device which could show the
> current (as close to the present knowledge as is really manageable)
> trajectory that the Apache Flex project is taking. On any given day, there
> are folks hard at work contributing new things with the intention to finish
> them. They may never do so. In some cases, they may have
> expressed commitment in their own right... beyond any Apache requirement
> per se. In other cases, the work could have a lot of support in the
> community and therefore pretty likely to move forward.
>
> Bottom line is that these ongoing efforts do tell a story and show a
> certain geographical map toward an apparent goal that is shaped as it
> happens. I would love to see a Road map of this geography. I would love
> to share this story with customers and colleagues. I also believe that
> folks who wish simply to consume the software and develop applications out
> in the market place could use this type of tool. And those folks on some
> level are the people who will give Apache Flex a future by keeping code in
> production in the market place... possibly providing jobs.
>
> A Road map shows details of roads in a handy overview where one can
> rationalize roads according to existing geography, yes? A Road map is a
> device one might use to help one get from one place to another using roads.
> The information in a Road map is only as good as it as at the time of
> publishing. New Roads are created all the time. New editions of a Road
> map are published to show changes. In our case, the Road map could show
> intended paths... in italics or some such demarcation. An idea list or a
> wish list sounds hypothetical, not intentional.
>
> Road map is easier to say than *"What we are planning to do at the moment
> before we individually or collectively decide to change our minds List."*
> But
> I do think this disclaimer could be in nice obvious print just below the
> heading :)
>
> Also to note. The content of the Road map will not magically post itself
> somewhere, and it will probably have little value unless people contribute
> or share. This is very much like the rest of the Apache Flex ideal, yes?
> The folks who have wanted a Road map have only asked that it be allowed to
> exist if they create it, so that they might try to make it work. The more
> obvious things being worked on are mostly likely the content targets
> anyhow. A single source for logging feature progress and showing revision
> history is just easier for some than weeding through mountains of e-mail
> and monthly status summaries. Why not allow them to put a page up and
> status how they see fit. If it sucks... kill it later.
>
> Lastly, I like the term "Road map", but I understand the objections. I am
> also very protective of language that might be under attack. Corporate
> america does not get to monopolize the term and force the image of
> stressful project management and quarterly timelines onto the term for the
> rest of us unless we let them.
>
> bb
The "Roadmap" changed to
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Status+of+Project
As you can see it is not very populated, my guess would be that Apache Flex
volunteers/committers are busy working on things that are of their
interest, which is not to try and compile and maintain a Roadmap that
nobody is going to adhere to.
We've had this discussion ad nauseam, I think it basically boils down to a
couple of things:
1.) This is a volunteer based project, people are in and out of this
project, so it is very difficult to either a.) agree to a "roadmap" and b.)
keep some web page updated with information regarding what everyone is
doing.
2.) The consensus has pretty much been against the creation of a roadmap
page due to #1 as well as other things, such as the stigma you alluded to
that has been established as the expectations for a roadmap.
You stated it yourself, "The content of the Road map will not magically
post itself somewhere, and it will probably have little value unless people
contribute or share", and as you can see by the Status of Project page, no
one is updating it even tho we've agreed not to call it Roadmap but still
have the type of information people are looking for in a "roadmap". The
truth of the matter is when people volunteer their time to the project they
want to work on what interests them, I would put my money on that most of
the committers would rather be coding and getting things done as opposed to
trying to keep up some roadmap/status page.
If people really want to know what's going on just check out the repository
and look through the project history. Or they could search through the mail
archives, it sounds shitty but that's just the way it is.
Bottom line is there seems to be very little interest in maintaing a web
page, and much more interest in just getting shit done. In an ideal world
we would have all the time in the world to maintain roadmaps and status
pages and contribute to the project etc etc, but we don't have all that
time and so people will continue to just work on stuff they want to. When
that stuff is ready they can move it from their whiteboards or personal
repositories/forks and submit them as patches.
As Nike would say... Just do it.
Omar Gonzalez
s9tpepper@apache.org
Apache Flex PPMC