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Posted to rivet-dev@tcl.apache.org by Massimo Manghi <ma...@unipr.it> on 2014/12/18 10:15:34 UTC
To stay or not to stay [was: Hi. A suggestion.]
I never thought of this possibility. I always felt Rivet wasn't mine
after all and probably unconsciously never granted myself the right of
thinking in these terms.
ASF is somewhat bureaucratic and rigid, no doubt. It's grown a lot and
became tailored to let many large projects coexist. I wasn't a committer
or member in the early times, but I always thought ASF was a collection
of projects which had at the center the Apache HTTP Web Server. Apache
Tcl fits exactly this model, and it would all the more so if we consider
also the projects we dropped because unmaintained (mod_tcl, etc). But
the web server (despite being still central for the Internet at large)
is not the core of ASF anymore. There are ~150 projects in ASF, some of
them really, really big and with large and thriving communities. I was
impressed by the number of top level projects Apache Hadoop gave birth.
We don't fit this picture anymore, unquestionable. Recently on the board
list someone pointed out that Apache never accepted umbrella projects in
order to have a more timely and accountable management. Well...Apache
Tcl is an umbrella project, we declared it at the beginning of our home
page, in very first statement. Definitely we are misplaced if you see it
this way.
On the other hand we are tightly connected to the Apache web server and
I see some danger ahead. It happened to me recently to show a young
engineer a project I did using Rivet and Tcl. He didn't know of Tcl and
became suspicious of it. I could only mitigate his perplexity when I
showed Rivet is developed under the hat of ASF. Branding is a key
problem, also in the Open Source world.
-- Massimo
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Re: To stay or not to stay [was: Hi. A suggestion.]
Posted by Massimo Manghi <mx...@apache.org>.
On 12/18/2014 09:50 PM, Damon Courtney wrote:
> So, the message I’m getting is that I’m the only one here. :) That’s
> cool. Just throwing it out there as a suggestion.
I appreciated the intention, it was quite stale here, inevitably. I
don't think your suggestion should be thrown away: quite timely Jeff
pointed out that many ASF projects are actually mirrored on github and
there is a lot of exchange with that part of the world. I thought for a
minute to move to git but I examined only the technical aspect (and I
didn't see a urge for that) and overlooked entirely the social implications
>
> Massimo is right that there should probably be a lot more sharing of
> what we’re working on. Honestly, though, I think one of the reasons
> we don’t hear much about Tcl (and, by extension, Rivet) is because
> all of the people using it are probably in the “I’m too old to brag
> about shit, I’m just here to get my work done” crowd. That’s my
> inclination anyway.
>
> I’ve done a lot of work in Rivet. I’ve been working with Tcl in one
> form or another for the last 20 years (thanks, Karl!). I just don’t
> have much time for showing everyone, explaining it, and then
> supporting it for others who want to use it. That’s probably a
> selfish attitude, but I’ve been screwed by the open source crowd
> before. The whole “stone soup” idea is great, and I still believe in
> it, but more often than not, I see one or two people doing the work
> and everyone else complaining.
>
> Sorry, that’s a bit of rant I didn’t mean to get off on. Yes, we
> should show off some of the stuff we’ve been working on. I know
> Flightaware has a repo on GitHub where the post some of their cool
> stuff. I’ve got a whole MVC framework I built in Rivet that I’m not
> ready to show wide, and it probably sucks, but I really like it. :)
I feel the same about my creature, completely, but I think I would like
to be part of a creative moment, where people throw their experience and
talent to do something. I will "grab the bull by both the horns" (like
we Italians say when you have to undertake something with decision) and
trim a bit my stuff. I will let it go into the world otherwise, like our
children, it will never grow up. But I need a few weeks, Christmas is
coming, family claims more time and I'm writing a paper
>
> Maybe we need a place on the website that points to projects
> connected to Rivet. Just a title and a link (probably to a GitHub
> repo) is good, but maybe a short description of the project as well.
>
>
> Or, maybe we’re all gettin’ too old for this shit.
>
oh please, don't say so. Let's try to get the best from this situation
> D
>
-- Massimo
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Re: To stay or not to stay [was: Hi. A suggestion.]
Posted by Massimo Manghi <mx...@apache.org>.
Brice, thank you for sharing your experience, I think your case should
be taken as guidance for us in order to understand to which direction
the project should be shepherded
+1, +10 , +100 for improving the docs. I think DocBook is really
unattractive. It's never an attractive duty for me to put my hands on
the XML of the manual, furthermore the markup it's not used coherently
throughout the manual and I confess I mostly copy sections as templates
for developing new parts, having failed to understand the power and the
magic of DocBook. I'd like to find a way out of it.
.. Massimo
On 12/18/2014 10:56 PM, Brice Hamon wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> Been a newbie on Rivet does not give me inside on what was good before,
> what we have done etc.. But I wanted to share my Rivet story with you.
>
> Just a little background on me, I have 20+ years of C/C++ programming in
> distributed real time systems mostly on Unix. So web and scripting stuff is
> not my forte. Too slow in my world.
>
> But from my experience, when I looked for a web framework to develop a real
> time website, I chose Rivet because, FIRST it was under the Apache umbrella
> (granted it does not mean much but gives a certain degree of credibility).
> The second was because of the nature of my field, I needed a framework I
> could extend in C/C++ and TCL offers that very well. And fast.
>
> My outsider views made me realize that Rivet has a lot of features, works
> very well and is very fast. Perfect. On the other hand, the documentation
> is poor, does not promote the usage of this tool. Just building and running
> it correctly wasn't easy on OpenSuse and thanks to Harald and Massimo to
> get me going.
>
> So IMO breaking away from Apache will remove the Apache flag from the
> project and I fail to see the upside, outside the bureaucratic aspect of it.
>
> I agree with the idea of having Rivet's project samples gitted somewhere.
> First creating a simple website but showing all classic feature of Rivet
> would be nice to get a taste of this amazing product (as sometimes I hear
> you talking about undocumented command I never used but most likely I
> should). I had that topic on my TO DO list but unfortunately I have been
> very busy building my new-co. I am in better shape now and would start
> contributing to it.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> Brice.
>
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Re: To stay or not to stay [was: Hi. A suggestion.]
Posted by Brice Hamon <no...@gmail.com>.
Hi guys,
Been a newbie on Rivet does not give me inside on what was good before,
what we have done etc.. But I wanted to share my Rivet story with you.
Just a little background on me, I have 20+ years of C/C++ programming in
distributed real time systems mostly on Unix. So web and scripting stuff is
not my forte. Too slow in my world.
But from my experience, when I looked for a web framework to develop a real
time website, I chose Rivet because, FIRST it was under the Apache umbrella
(granted it does not mean much but gives a certain degree of credibility).
The second was because of the nature of my field, I needed a framework I
could extend in C/C++ and TCL offers that very well. And fast.
My outsider views made me realize that Rivet has a lot of features, works
very well and is very fast. Perfect. On the other hand, the documentation
is poor, does not promote the usage of this tool. Just building and running
it correctly wasn't easy on OpenSuse and thanks to Harald and Massimo to
get me going.
So IMO breaking away from Apache will remove the Apache flag from the
project and I fail to see the upside, outside the bureaucratic aspect of it.
I agree with the idea of having Rivet's project samples gitted somewhere.
First creating a simple website but showing all classic feature of Rivet
would be nice to get a taste of this amazing product (as sometimes I hear
you talking about undocumented command I never used but most likely I
should). I had that topic on my TO DO list but unfortunately I have been
very busy building my new-co. I am in better shape now and would start
contributing to it.
My 2 cents.
Brice.
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com> wrote:
>
> So, the message I’m getting is that I’m the only one here. :) That’s cool.
> Just throwing it out there as a suggestion.
>
> Massimo is right that there should probably be a lot more sharing of what
> we’re working on. Honestly, though, I think one of the reasons we don’t
> hear much about Tcl (and, by extension, Rivet) is because all of the people
> using it are probably in the “I’m too old to brag about shit, I’m just here
> to get my work done” crowd. That’s my inclination anyway.
>
> I’ve done a lot of work in Rivet. I’ve been working with Tcl in one form
> or another for the last 20 years (thanks, Karl!). I just don’t have much
> time for showing everyone, explaining it, and then supporting it for others
> who want to use it. That’s probably a selfish attitude, but I’ve been
> screwed by the open source crowd before. The whole “stone soup” idea is
> great, and I still believe in it, but more often than not, I see one or two
> people doing the work and everyone else complaining.
>
> Sorry, that’s a bit of rant I didn’t mean to get off on. Yes, we should
> show off some of the stuff we’ve been working on. I know Flightaware has a
> repo on GitHub where the post some of their cool stuff. I’ve got a whole
> MVC framework I built in Rivet that I’m not ready to show wide, and it
> probably sucks, but I really like it. :)
>
> Maybe we need a place on the website that points to projects connected to
> Rivet. Just a title and a link (probably to a GitHub repo) is good, but
> maybe a short description of the project as well.
>
> Or, maybe we’re all gettin’ too old for this shit.
>
> D
>
>
> On Dec 18, 2014, at 1:38 PM, Jeff Lawson <je...@bovine.net> wrote:
>
> I do think that the Apache relationship improves the perception of the
> project to outsiders in a positive way, and separating would potentially
> cause new users to have greater skepticism about Rivet. Also, just having
> to explain the fact that it is no longer an Apache project could be
> perceived slightly negatively.
>
> Some Apache projects choose to use git instead of subversion, which might
> make it easier for other users to submit code changes via pull requests:
> https://git-wip-us.apache.org/
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Tcl is not a popular language. It’s not GOING to be a popular language.
>> Nothing we do in Rivet will change that. Although, Rails made Ruby popular,
>> so who knows. I don’t care. I use what I like and will continue to do so.
>>
>> The point was simply that the open source world is much more vibrant in
>> places NOT ruled by bureaucracy. No, we’re not going to get a herd of
>> programmers take a look at Rivet by going somewhere else, but having
>> everyone jump through stupid hoops to even try can’t help. I’ll admit that
>> this is purely self-serving on my part. I don’t want to have to jump
>> through the stupid hoops either. Not when I can just grab any project off
>> Github that I want and start working in minutes.
>>
>> I suppose the Apache project lends some credibility (for some), but I
>> don’t see it much these days. Any project that wants to attract attention
>> now lives on Github. Do we really want to keep voting and submitting
>> quarterly updates about how nothing is really happening? Or getting
>> chastised for not sending said reports?
>>
>> Also, holy shit, are we still f*cking using Subversion?! This makes the
>> whole Apache Project look like asshats. Ridiculous.
>>
>> D
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 18, 2014, at 3:40 AM, David Welton <da...@dedasys.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> ASF is somewhat bureaucratic and rigid, no doubt. It's grown a lot and
>> >> became tailored to let many large projects coexist. I wasn't a
>> committer or
>> >> member in the early times, but I always thought ASF was a collection of
>> >> projects which had at the center the Apache HTTP Web Server. Apache
>> Tcl fits
>> >> exactly this model, and it would all the more so if we consider also
>> the
>> >> projects we dropped because unmaintained (mod_tcl, etc). But the web
>> server
>> >> (despite being still central for the Internet at large) is not the
>> core of
>> >> ASF anymore. There are ~150 projects in ASF, some of them really,
>> really big
>> >> and with large and thriving communities. I was impressed by the number
>> of
>> >> top level projects Apache Hadoop gave birth. We don't fit this picture
>> >> anymore, unquestionable. Recently on the board list someone pointed
>> out that
>> >> Apache never accepted umbrella projects in order to have a more timely
>> and
>> >> accountable management. Well...Apache Tcl is an umbrella project, we
>> >> declared it at the beginning of our home page, in very first statement.
>> >> Definitely we are misplaced if you see it this way.
>> >
>> > I think at one point, being associated with the Apache web server had
>> > some cachet. These days, most Apache projects are Java things that
>> > don't have any cross over with the web server, Tcl or Rivet.
>> >
>> > The rigidity and process and all that are a good thing for companies
>> > who want to interact with Apache, as there's a predictable, mostly
>> > friendly model for how things work, that produces code without legal
>> > issues. I don't think those are advantages for Rivet.
>> >
>> >> On the other hand we are tightly connected to the Apache web server
>> and I
>> >> see some danger ahead. It happened to me recently to show a young
>> engineer a
>> >> project I did using Rivet and Tcl. He didn't know of Tcl and became
>> >> suspicious of it. I could only mitigate his perplexity when I showed
>> Rivet
>> >> is developed under the hat of ASF. Branding is a key problem, also in
>> the
>> >> Open Source world.
>> >
>> > Interesting - what kind of background does he have in terms of
>> programming?
>> >
>> > OTOH, I'm not exactly sure there are vast herds of programmers just
>> > milling around waiting to start contributing to Rivet if only it
>> > weren't under the yoke of the ASF, either....
>> >
>> > --
>> > David N. Welton
>> >
>> > http://www.dedasys.com/
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscribe@tcl.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-help@tcl.apache.org
>>
>>
>
Re: To stay or not to stay [was: Hi. A suggestion.]
Posted by Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com>.
So, the message I’m getting is that I’m the only one here. :) That’s cool. Just throwing it out there as a suggestion.
Massimo is right that there should probably be a lot more sharing of what we’re working on. Honestly, though, I think one of the reasons we don’t hear much about Tcl (and, by extension, Rivet) is because all of the people using it are probably in the “I’m too old to brag about shit, I’m just here to get my work done” crowd. That’s my inclination anyway.
I’ve done a lot of work in Rivet. I’ve been working with Tcl in one form or another for the last 20 years (thanks, Karl!). I just don’t have much time for showing everyone, explaining it, and then supporting it for others who want to use it. That’s probably a selfish attitude, but I’ve been screwed by the open source crowd before. The whole “stone soup” idea is great, and I still believe in it, but more often than not, I see one or two people doing the work and everyone else complaining.
Sorry, that’s a bit of rant I didn’t mean to get off on. Yes, we should show off some of the stuff we’ve been working on. I know Flightaware has a repo on GitHub where the post some of their cool stuff. I’ve got a whole MVC framework I built in Rivet that I’m not ready to show wide, and it probably sucks, but I really like it. :)
Maybe we need a place on the website that points to projects connected to Rivet. Just a title and a link (probably to a GitHub repo) is good, but maybe a short description of the project as well.
Or, maybe we’re all gettin’ too old for this shit.
D
> On Dec 18, 2014, at 1:38 PM, Jeff Lawson <je...@bovine.net> wrote:
>
> I do think that the Apache relationship improves the perception of the project to outsiders in a positive way, and separating would potentially cause new users to have greater skepticism about Rivet. Also, just having to explain the fact that it is no longer an Apache project could be perceived slightly negatively.
>
> Some Apache projects choose to use git instead of subversion, which might make it easier for other users to submit code changes via pull requests:
> https://git-wip-us.apache.org/ <https://git-wip-us.apache.org/>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Damon Courtney <damon@tclhome.com <ma...@tclhome.com>> wrote:
> Tcl is not a popular language. It’s not GOING to be a popular language. Nothing we do in Rivet will change that. Although, Rails made Ruby popular, so who knows. I don’t care. I use what I like and will continue to do so.
>
> The point was simply that the open source world is much more vibrant in places NOT ruled by bureaucracy. No, we’re not going to get a herd of programmers take a look at Rivet by going somewhere else, but having everyone jump through stupid hoops to even try can’t help. I’ll admit that this is purely self-serving on my part. I don’t want to have to jump through the stupid hoops either. Not when I can just grab any project off Github that I want and start working in minutes.
>
> I suppose the Apache project lends some credibility (for some), but I don’t see it much these days. Any project that wants to attract attention now lives on Github. Do we really want to keep voting and submitting quarterly updates about how nothing is really happening? Or getting chastised for not sending said reports?
>
> Also, holy shit, are we still f*cking using Subversion?! This makes the whole Apache Project look like asshats. Ridiculous.
>
> D
>
>
> > On Dec 18, 2014, at 3:40 AM, David Welton <davidw@dedasys.com <ma...@dedasys.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> ASF is somewhat bureaucratic and rigid, no doubt. It's grown a lot and
> >> became tailored to let many large projects coexist. I wasn't a committer or
> >> member in the early times, but I always thought ASF was a collection of
> >> projects which had at the center the Apache HTTP Web Server. Apache Tcl fits
> >> exactly this model, and it would all the more so if we consider also the
> >> projects we dropped because unmaintained (mod_tcl, etc). But the web server
> >> (despite being still central for the Internet at large) is not the core of
> >> ASF anymore. There are ~150 projects in ASF, some of them really, really big
> >> and with large and thriving communities. I was impressed by the number of
> >> top level projects Apache Hadoop gave birth. We don't fit this picture
> >> anymore, unquestionable. Recently on the board list someone pointed out that
> >> Apache never accepted umbrella projects in order to have a more timely and
> >> accountable management. Well...Apache Tcl is an umbrella project, we
> >> declared it at the beginning of our home page, in very first statement.
> >> Definitely we are misplaced if you see it this way.
> >
> > I think at one point, being associated with the Apache web server had
> > some cachet. These days, most Apache projects are Java things that
> > don't have any cross over with the web server, Tcl or Rivet.
> >
> > The rigidity and process and all that are a good thing for companies
> > who want to interact with Apache, as there's a predictable, mostly
> > friendly model for how things work, that produces code without legal
> > issues. I don't think those are advantages for Rivet.
> >
> >> On the other hand we are tightly connected to the Apache web server and I
> >> see some danger ahead. It happened to me recently to show a young engineer a
> >> project I did using Rivet and Tcl. He didn't know of Tcl and became
> >> suspicious of it. I could only mitigate his perplexity when I showed Rivet
> >> is developed under the hat of ASF. Branding is a key problem, also in the
> >> Open Source world.
> >
> > Interesting - what kind of background does he have in terms of programming?
> >
> > OTOH, I'm not exactly sure there are vast herds of programmers just
> > milling around waiting to start contributing to Rivet if only it
> > weren't under the yoke of the ASF, either....
> >
> > --
> > David N. Welton
> >
> > http://www.dedasys.com/ <http://www.dedasys.com/>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscribe@tcl.apache.org <ma...@tcl.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-help@tcl.apache.org <ma...@tcl.apache.org>
>
Re: To stay or not to stay [was: Hi. A suggestion.]
Posted by Jeff Lawson <je...@bovine.net>.
I do think that the Apache relationship improves the perception of the
project to outsiders in a positive way, and separating would potentially
cause new users to have greater skepticism about Rivet. Also, just having
to explain the fact that it is no longer an Apache project could be
perceived slightly negatively.
Some Apache projects choose to use git instead of subversion, which might
make it easier for other users to submit code changes via pull requests:
https://git-wip-us.apache.org/
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com> wrote:
>
> Tcl is not a popular language. It’s not GOING to be a popular language.
> Nothing we do in Rivet will change that. Although, Rails made Ruby popular,
> so who knows. I don’t care. I use what I like and will continue to do so.
>
> The point was simply that the open source world is much more vibrant in
> places NOT ruled by bureaucracy. No, we’re not going to get a herd of
> programmers take a look at Rivet by going somewhere else, but having
> everyone jump through stupid hoops to even try can’t help. I’ll admit that
> this is purely self-serving on my part. I don’t want to have to jump
> through the stupid hoops either. Not when I can just grab any project off
> Github that I want and start working in minutes.
>
> I suppose the Apache project lends some credibility (for some), but I
> don’t see it much these days. Any project that wants to attract attention
> now lives on Github. Do we really want to keep voting and submitting
> quarterly updates about how nothing is really happening? Or getting
> chastised for not sending said reports?
>
> Also, holy shit, are we still f*cking using Subversion?! This makes the
> whole Apache Project look like asshats. Ridiculous.
>
> D
>
>
> > On Dec 18, 2014, at 3:40 AM, David Welton <da...@dedasys.com> wrote:
> >
> >> ASF is somewhat bureaucratic and rigid, no doubt. It's grown a lot and
> >> became tailored to let many large projects coexist. I wasn't a
> committer or
> >> member in the early times, but I always thought ASF was a collection of
> >> projects which had at the center the Apache HTTP Web Server. Apache Tcl
> fits
> >> exactly this model, and it would all the more so if we consider also the
> >> projects we dropped because unmaintained (mod_tcl, etc). But the web
> server
> >> (despite being still central for the Internet at large) is not the core
> of
> >> ASF anymore. There are ~150 projects in ASF, some of them really,
> really big
> >> and with large and thriving communities. I was impressed by the number
> of
> >> top level projects Apache Hadoop gave birth. We don't fit this picture
> >> anymore, unquestionable. Recently on the board list someone pointed out
> that
> >> Apache never accepted umbrella projects in order to have a more timely
> and
> >> accountable management. Well...Apache Tcl is an umbrella project, we
> >> declared it at the beginning of our home page, in very first statement.
> >> Definitely we are misplaced if you see it this way.
> >
> > I think at one point, being associated with the Apache web server had
> > some cachet. These days, most Apache projects are Java things that
> > don't have any cross over with the web server, Tcl or Rivet.
> >
> > The rigidity and process and all that are a good thing for companies
> > who want to interact with Apache, as there's a predictable, mostly
> > friendly model for how things work, that produces code without legal
> > issues. I don't think those are advantages for Rivet.
> >
> >> On the other hand we are tightly connected to the Apache web server and
> I
> >> see some danger ahead. It happened to me recently to show a young
> engineer a
> >> project I did using Rivet and Tcl. He didn't know of Tcl and became
> >> suspicious of it. I could only mitigate his perplexity when I showed
> Rivet
> >> is developed under the hat of ASF. Branding is a key problem, also in
> the
> >> Open Source world.
> >
> > Interesting - what kind of background does he have in terms of
> programming?
> >
> > OTOH, I'm not exactly sure there are vast herds of programmers just
> > milling around waiting to start contributing to Rivet if only it
> > weren't under the yoke of the ASF, either....
> >
> > --
> > David N. Welton
> >
> > http://www.dedasys.com/
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: rivet-dev-unsubscribe@tcl.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: rivet-dev-help@tcl.apache.org
>
>
Re: To stay or not to stay [was: Hi. A suggestion.]
Posted by Massimo Manghi <mx...@apache.org>.
I think your first paragraph shows the crux of the problem and hints a
direction to follow: there is no urgent need to move Rivet out of ASF
because Tcl is not a buzzword in the open source community and it's
unlikely to become so just because gets labeled with 'fork me on
github'. We could probably move out with Rivet (and your arguments are
quite strong for it) if we had something to lay on Rivet itself that
might attract Tcl'ers who are now drawing on more popular languages when
it comes to web programming. And web programming is ubiquitous because
web technology comes handy in many different scopes and I'm certain many
Tcl'ers go to PHP, Java or Rails for building websites even when they
don't need all the power of those long established tools and don't have
strong branding requirements (yes, people like to see those shiny words
on what they paid for)
Maybe it's time we throw into the arena what we have done in these
years, let it be torn into pieces, criticized and reassembled in
something that might look attractive at least for those who have already
a penchant for Tcl.
If you allow a few more weeks I will start myself presenting what I've
been doing in the last 2 years with Rivet and what I did with it. Don't
expect anything perfect, but I made with it quite a few websites for
various purposes
-- Massimo
On 12/18/2014 06:05 PM, Damon Courtney wrote:
> Tcl is not a popular language. It’s not GOING to be a popular
> language. Nothing we do in Rivet will change that. Although, Rails
> made Ruby popular, so who knows. I don’t care. I use what I like and
> will continue to do so.
>
> The point was simply that the open source world is much more vibrant
> in places NOT ruled by bureaucracy. No, we’re not going to get a herd
> of programmers take a look at Rivet by going somewhere else, but
> having everyone jump through stupid hoops to even try can’t help.
> I’ll admit that this is purely self-serving on my part. I don’t want
> to have to jump through the stupid hoops either. Not when I can just
> grab any project off Github that I want and start working in
> minutes.
>
> I suppose the Apache project lends some credibility (for some), but I
> don’t see it much these days. Any project that wants to attract
> attention now lives on Github. Do we really want to keep voting and
> submitting quarterly updates about how nothing is really happening?
> Or getting chastised for not sending said reports?
>
> Also, holy shit, are we still f*cking using Subversion?! This makes
> the whole Apache Project look like asshats. Ridiculous.
>
> D
>
>
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Re: To stay or not to stay [was: Hi. A suggestion.]
Posted by Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com>.
Tcl is not a popular language. It’s not GOING to be a popular language. Nothing we do in Rivet will change that. Although, Rails made Ruby popular, so who knows. I don’t care. I use what I like and will continue to do so.
The point was simply that the open source world is much more vibrant in places NOT ruled by bureaucracy. No, we’re not going to get a herd of programmers take a look at Rivet by going somewhere else, but having everyone jump through stupid hoops to even try can’t help. I’ll admit that this is purely self-serving on my part. I don’t want to have to jump through the stupid hoops either. Not when I can just grab any project off Github that I want and start working in minutes.
I suppose the Apache project lends some credibility (for some), but I don’t see it much these days. Any project that wants to attract attention now lives on Github. Do we really want to keep voting and submitting quarterly updates about how nothing is really happening? Or getting chastised for not sending said reports?
Also, holy shit, are we still f*cking using Subversion?! This makes the whole Apache Project look like asshats. Ridiculous.
D
> On Dec 18, 2014, at 3:40 AM, David Welton <da...@dedasys.com> wrote:
>
>> ASF is somewhat bureaucratic and rigid, no doubt. It's grown a lot and
>> became tailored to let many large projects coexist. I wasn't a committer or
>> member in the early times, but I always thought ASF was a collection of
>> projects which had at the center the Apache HTTP Web Server. Apache Tcl fits
>> exactly this model, and it would all the more so if we consider also the
>> projects we dropped because unmaintained (mod_tcl, etc). But the web server
>> (despite being still central for the Internet at large) is not the core of
>> ASF anymore. There are ~150 projects in ASF, some of them really, really big
>> and with large and thriving communities. I was impressed by the number of
>> top level projects Apache Hadoop gave birth. We don't fit this picture
>> anymore, unquestionable. Recently on the board list someone pointed out that
>> Apache never accepted umbrella projects in order to have a more timely and
>> accountable management. Well...Apache Tcl is an umbrella project, we
>> declared it at the beginning of our home page, in very first statement.
>> Definitely we are misplaced if you see it this way.
>
> I think at one point, being associated with the Apache web server had
> some cachet. These days, most Apache projects are Java things that
> don't have any cross over with the web server, Tcl or Rivet.
>
> The rigidity and process and all that are a good thing for companies
> who want to interact with Apache, as there's a predictable, mostly
> friendly model for how things work, that produces code without legal
> issues. I don't think those are advantages for Rivet.
>
>> On the other hand we are tightly connected to the Apache web server and I
>> see some danger ahead. It happened to me recently to show a young engineer a
>> project I did using Rivet and Tcl. He didn't know of Tcl and became
>> suspicious of it. I could only mitigate his perplexity when I showed Rivet
>> is developed under the hat of ASF. Branding is a key problem, also in the
>> Open Source world.
>
> Interesting - what kind of background does he have in terms of programming?
>
> OTOH, I'm not exactly sure there are vast herds of programmers just
> milling around waiting to start contributing to Rivet if only it
> weren't under the yoke of the ASF, either....
>
> --
> David N. Welton
>
> http://www.dedasys.com/
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Re: To stay or not to stay [was: Hi. A suggestion.]
Posted by David Welton <da...@dedasys.com>.
> ASF is somewhat bureaucratic and rigid, no doubt. It's grown a lot and
> became tailored to let many large projects coexist. I wasn't a committer or
> member in the early times, but I always thought ASF was a collection of
> projects which had at the center the Apache HTTP Web Server. Apache Tcl fits
> exactly this model, and it would all the more so if we consider also the
> projects we dropped because unmaintained (mod_tcl, etc). But the web server
> (despite being still central for the Internet at large) is not the core of
> ASF anymore. There are ~150 projects in ASF, some of them really, really big
> and with large and thriving communities. I was impressed by the number of
> top level projects Apache Hadoop gave birth. We don't fit this picture
> anymore, unquestionable. Recently on the board list someone pointed out that
> Apache never accepted umbrella projects in order to have a more timely and
> accountable management. Well...Apache Tcl is an umbrella project, we
> declared it at the beginning of our home page, in very first statement.
> Definitely we are misplaced if you see it this way.
I think at one point, being associated with the Apache web server had
some cachet. These days, most Apache projects are Java things that
don't have any cross over with the web server, Tcl or Rivet.
The rigidity and process and all that are a good thing for companies
who want to interact with Apache, as there's a predictable, mostly
friendly model for how things work, that produces code without legal
issues. I don't think those are advantages for Rivet.
> On the other hand we are tightly connected to the Apache web server and I
> see some danger ahead. It happened to me recently to show a young engineer a
> project I did using Rivet and Tcl. He didn't know of Tcl and became
> suspicious of it. I could only mitigate his perplexity when I showed Rivet
> is developed under the hat of ASF. Branding is a key problem, also in the
> Open Source world.
Interesting - what kind of background does he have in terms of programming?
OTOH, I'm not exactly sure there are vast herds of programmers just
milling around waiting to start contributing to Rivet if only it
weren't under the yoke of the ASF, either....
--
David N. Welton
http://www.dedasys.com/
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