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Posted to user@commons.apache.org by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org> on 2008/08/27 17:00:45 UTC
javaflow & aranea continuations
Hi all,
I've discovered this cool stuff only few days ago and I browsed a lot
the web searching for info and now I'm here ;-)
I didn't find aranea-continuations mentioned in javaflow, but I think it
is a very interesting abstraction layer on top of javaflow, it is pretty
generic (core is generic, then they have specific stuff for swing and
their mvc framework) and it is Apache "ALv2" Licensed.
I read this:
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/commons/sandbox/javaflow/trunk/TODO
but it seems a bit outdated (asm support marked as "maybe" seems to be
there, the BCEL issues seems fixed following rhe links)... Running the
tests seems that ASM and BCEL enhancer have the same quality level, but
I may be missing something as I simply looked at test results.
I see there is no action around javaflow in the last year: is this
because of critical issues with its continuation approach or simply lack
of interest?
About "talk to the RIFE guys"/"talk to the aspectwerkz and aspectj
folks", did anything happen?
I didn't find too much activity (docs/webpages) around RIFE
continuations or any of the above and even about the JSR proposal.
I checked out the sources with eclipse and enabled m2eclipse, the only
issue I found is that the main pom references
commons-jci-core:1.0-SNAPSHOT. I see commons-jci-core:1.0 has been
released so I removed "-SNAPSHOT" and it succesfully built.
I found at least a couple of projects around using self compiled
javaflow libraries so it seems that even if it is incomplete it is
useful to the world. Is there any motivation against making a 0.1
release in commons or is it simply lack of time?
Indeed JavaFlow is cool stuff!
Stefano
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Re: javaflow & aranea continuations
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>.
>> Well, the ASM enhancer should still be considered experimental. And
>> someone reported it to be much slower than the BCEL one.
>> (Which is a bit of a surprise) Still I would love to see ASM being
>> used as the main engine. Just because the library has a much better
>> community.
>
> I've worked only on the ASM enhancer because it seems much more
> simple to understand.
> Is the enhancing process or the enhanced code to be slower?
The final code should be the same. The enhancing process has been
reported to be slower.
>>> I see there is no action around javaflow in the last year: is this
>>> because of critical issues with its continuation approach or
>>> simply lack of interest?
>> Well, I don't really use it at work anymore. And rarely people even
>> just gave feedback. Not talking about any contributions. Especially
>> when in the end I hear about people using it in their PhD thesis or
>> some cool projects I am a little in between. "Cool!" and "WTF
>> didn't you show up on the mailing lists". It's too much work if you
>> don't get paid for it and don't even use it. Plus I am not a big
>> fan of one man shows.
>
> I understand!
> Maybe Servlet-3.0 suspend/resume stuff will make tomcat people to be
> interested in javaflow.. Maybe I'll ping them sooner or later.
Cool
>>> About "talk to the RIFE guys"/"talk to the aspectwerkz and aspectj
>>> folks", did anything happen?
>> I only have talked briefly with Geert. He was considering changing
>> the license and working together on it. While it is not as generic
>> as javaflow he is happy with his implementation. So I guess I just
>> did not have enough energy following up on this.
>
> I don't know anything about RIFE continuations methods. Does it
> still work with bytecode enhancement and a StackRecorder like
> runtime object?
Yes, they took a slightly different approach though.
> I succesfully made the ASM testsuite to fully pass
> (SANDBOX-254+SANDBOX-255 patches). If there are known limitations
> can you create failing tests for them?
I've just looked into them but (see the comment) but unfortunately
patches also did not apply cleanly.
I hope to have some more time this week.
cheers
--
Torsten
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Re: javaflow & aranea continuations
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Torsten Curdt ha scritto:
> Hey Stefano
>> [...]
>> I read this:
>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/commons/sandbox/javaflow/trunk/TODO
>> but it seems a bit outdated (asm support marked as "maybe" seems to be
>> there, the BCEL issues seems fixed following rhe links)... Running the
>> tests seems that ASM and BCEL enhancer have the same quality level,
>> but I may be missing something as I simply looked at test results.
>
> Well, the ASM enhancer should still be considered experimental. And
> someone reported it to be much slower than the BCEL one.
> (Which is a bit of a surprise) Still I would love to see ASM being used
> as the main engine. Just because the library has a much better community.
I've worked only on the ASM enhancer because it seems much more simple
to understand.
Is the enhancing process or the enhanced code to be slower?
>> I see there is no action around javaflow in the last year: is this
>> because of critical issues with its continuation approach or simply
>> lack of interest?
>
> Well, I don't really use it at work anymore. And rarely people even just
> gave feedback. Not talking about any contributions. Especially when in
> the end I hear about people using it in their PhD thesis or some cool
> projects I am a little in between. "Cool!" and "WTF didn't you show up
> on the mailing lists". It's too much work if you don't get paid for it
> and don't even use it. Plus I am not a big fan of one man shows.
I understand!
Maybe Servlet-3.0 suspend/resume stuff will make tomcat people to be
interested in javaflow.. Maybe I'll ping them sooner or later.
>> About "talk to the RIFE guys"/"talk to the aspectwerkz and aspectj
>> folks", did anything happen?
>
> I only have talked briefly with Geert. He was considering changing the
> license and working together on it. While it is not as generic as
> javaflow he is happy with his implementation. So I guess I just did not
> have enough energy following up on this.
I don't know anything about RIFE continuations methods. Does it still
work with bytecode enhancement and a StackRecorder like runtime object?
>> I didn't find too much activity (docs/webpages) around RIFE
>> continuations or any of the above and even about the JSR proposal.
>
> Geert did file the JSR proposal though. Unfortunately it got rejected.
> Even from the ASF. Which really annoyed me a little. But anyway.
Weird, really.
>> I checked out the sources with eclipse and enabled m2eclipse, the only
>> issue I found is that the main pom references
>> commons-jci-core:1.0-SNAPSHOT. I see commons-jci-core:1.0 has been
>> released so I removed "-SNAPSHOT" and it succesfully built.
>
> Nice
>
>> I found at least a couple of projects around using self compiled
>> javaflow libraries so it seems that even if it is incomplete it is
>> useful to the world. Is there any motivation against making a 0.1
>> release in commons or is it simply lack of time?
>
> A few people asked for a release. But I didn't know about so many
> projects using it. (Guess I know about 3-4 projects plus a couple of PhD
> thesis). I would be happy to follow up and do a release. But there are a
> couple of things that I would like to see fixed before you finalize and
> commit to an API. And that's still quite a bit of work.
I succesfully made the ASM testsuite to fully pass
(SANDBOX-254+SANDBOX-255 patches). If there are known limitations can
you create failing tests for them?
Stefano
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RE: javaflow & aranea continuations
Posted by "Spies, Brennan" <Br...@ejgallo.com>.
Torsten,
You sound a little discouraged.
As someone who is trying to get my own project off the ground, I can
sympathize a bit with you. It's a lot of work. I can't speak for you, but my
own motivation is the challenge of the task itself. I'm scratching an itch,
if you will, to build a little cooler mouse trap.
As for javaflow, I suspect that continuations on the JVM are going to become
very important very soon. John Rose has added an initial implementation
(http://blogs.sun.com/jrose/entry/continuations_in_the_vm) of it in the
OpenJDK (of course, there is still no language support in Java, but other
languages...), but this still leaves a gaping JSE 5.0 and 6.0-sized hole to
be filled. With the advent of Comet/Reverse Ajax and the planned asynchronous
API in Servlet 3.0, continuations become the "right way" of handling this. I
haven't delved too much into the current asynchronous implementations in
Tomcat or Jetty, but my understanding is that they are based on
exceptions--not really continuations at all, but a pretty weak imitation.
Honestly, I am surprised that the Tomcat or Jetty team (or any other Java app
server) has not shown interest in javaflow. It seems to me that it would be
in their best interest. The only sticking point I can think of is the ability
to control the depth of the call stack that is saved (perhaps an idea for a
feature here?).
Anyway, keep up the good work.
Regards,
Brennan
-----Original Message-----
From: Torsten Curdt [mailto:tcurdt@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 3:05 PM
To: Commons Users List
Subject: Re: javaflow & aranea continuations
Hey Stefano
> I've discovered this cool stuff only few days ago and I browsed a
> lot the web searching for info and now I'm here ;-)
>
> I didn't find aranea-continuations mentioned in javaflow, but I
> think it is a very interesting abstraction layer on top of javaflow,
> it is pretty generic (core is generic, then they have specific stuff
> for swing and their mvc framework) and it is Apache "ALv2" Licensed.
I didn't hear about that before.
> I read this:
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/commons/sandbox/javaflow/trunk/TODO
> but it seems a bit outdated (asm support marked as "maybe" seems to
> be there, the BCEL issues seems fixed following rhe links)...
> Running the tests seems that ASM and BCEL enhancer have the same
> quality level, but I may be missing something as I simply looked at
> test results.
Well, the ASM enhancer should still be considered experimental. And
someone reported it to be much slower than the BCEL one.
(Which is a bit of a surprise) Still I would love to see ASM being
used as the main engine. Just because the library has a much better
community.
> I see there is no action around javaflow in the last year: is this
> because of critical issues with its continuation approach or simply
> lack of interest?
Well, I don't really use it at work anymore. And rarely people even
just gave feedback. Not talking about any contributions. Especially
when in the end I hear about people using it in their PhD thesis or
some cool projects I am a little in between. "Cool!" and "WTF didn't
you show up on the mailing lists". It's too much work if you don't get
paid for it and don't even use it. Plus I am not a big fan of one man
shows.
> About "talk to the RIFE guys"/"talk to the aspectwerkz and aspectj
> folks", did anything happen?
I only have talked briefly with Geert. He was considering changing the
license and working together on it. While it is not as generic as
javaflow he is happy with his implementation. So I guess I just did
not have enough energy following up on this.
> I didn't find too much activity (docs/webpages) around RIFE
> continuations or any of the above and even about the JSR proposal.
Geert did file the JSR proposal though. Unfortunately it got rejected.
Even from the ASF. Which really annoyed me a little. But anyway.
> I checked out the sources with eclipse and enabled m2eclipse, the
> only issue I found is that the main pom references commons-jci-core:
> 1.0-SNAPSHOT. I see commons-jci-core:1.0 has been released so I
> removed "-SNAPSHOT" and it succesfully built.
Nice
> I found at least a couple of projects around using self compiled
> javaflow libraries so it seems that even if it is incomplete it is
> useful to the world. Is there any motivation against making a 0.1
> release in commons or is it simply lack of time?
A few people asked for a release. But I didn't know about so many
projects using it. (Guess I know about 3-4 projects plus a couple of
PhD thesis). I would be happy to follow up and do a release. But there
are a couple of things that I would like to see fixed before you
finalize and commit to an API. And that's still quite a bit of work.
> Indeed JavaFlow is cool stuff!
Thanks :)
cheers
--
Torsten
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Re: javaflow & aranea continuations
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>.
Hey Stefano
> I've discovered this cool stuff only few days ago and I browsed a
> lot the web searching for info and now I'm here ;-)
>
> I didn't find aranea-continuations mentioned in javaflow, but I
> think it is a very interesting abstraction layer on top of javaflow,
> it is pretty generic (core is generic, then they have specific stuff
> for swing and their mvc framework) and it is Apache "ALv2" Licensed.
I didn't hear about that before.
> I read this:
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/commons/sandbox/javaflow/trunk/TODO
> but it seems a bit outdated (asm support marked as "maybe" seems to
> be there, the BCEL issues seems fixed following rhe links)...
> Running the tests seems that ASM and BCEL enhancer have the same
> quality level, but I may be missing something as I simply looked at
> test results.
Well, the ASM enhancer should still be considered experimental. And
someone reported it to be much slower than the BCEL one.
(Which is a bit of a surprise) Still I would love to see ASM being
used as the main engine. Just because the library has a much better
community.
> I see there is no action around javaflow in the last year: is this
> because of critical issues with its continuation approach or simply
> lack of interest?
Well, I don't really use it at work anymore. And rarely people even
just gave feedback. Not talking about any contributions. Especially
when in the end I hear about people using it in their PhD thesis or
some cool projects I am a little in between. "Cool!" and "WTF didn't
you show up on the mailing lists". It's too much work if you don't get
paid for it and don't even use it. Plus I am not a big fan of one man
shows.
> About "talk to the RIFE guys"/"talk to the aspectwerkz and aspectj
> folks", did anything happen?
I only have talked briefly with Geert. He was considering changing the
license and working together on it. While it is not as generic as
javaflow he is happy with his implementation. So I guess I just did
not have enough energy following up on this.
> I didn't find too much activity (docs/webpages) around RIFE
> continuations or any of the above and even about the JSR proposal.
Geert did file the JSR proposal though. Unfortunately it got rejected.
Even from the ASF. Which really annoyed me a little. But anyway.
> I checked out the sources with eclipse and enabled m2eclipse, the
> only issue I found is that the main pom references commons-jci-core:
> 1.0-SNAPSHOT. I see commons-jci-core:1.0 has been released so I
> removed "-SNAPSHOT" and it succesfully built.
Nice
> I found at least a couple of projects around using self compiled
> javaflow libraries so it seems that even if it is incomplete it is
> useful to the world. Is there any motivation against making a 0.1
> release in commons or is it simply lack of time?
A few people asked for a release. But I didn't know about so many
projects using it. (Guess I know about 3-4 projects plus a couple of
PhD thesis). I would be happy to follow up and do a release. But there
are a couple of things that I would like to see fixed before you
finalize and commit to an API. And that's still quite a bit of work.
> Indeed JavaFlow is cool stuff!
Thanks :)
cheers
--
Torsten
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