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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> on 2003/12/18 19:17:32 UTC
Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
> > First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of
the
> > PMC, which I'd be happy to do.
> Thanks for the offer but I don't know if I would qualify for one.
> The description on the website is pretty broad.
Harish, as I see it, part of the problem comes from a misunderstanding about
the nature of the PMC. The term "management" has been misunderstood in the
context of an ASF Project.
The intended purpose for the PMC is that the PMC members are the core group
making all decisions related to an ASF Project. That includes voting on
code changes, voting on new Committers, voting on new PMC members. Not all
Committers may be on the PMC, but the majority should be -- and those who
aren't do not have binding votes (see explanation below). I recently did a
quick survey of some projects:
Project # PMC # Committers %
HTTP Server: 43 59 73%
APR 29 43 67%
Cocoon 31 67 46%
Jakarta 42+ 352 12%
Not all Committers are still active, so the ratio of PMC to active
Committers is higher, but the difference is still pretty clear. The Jakarta
PMC, using the current structure, is missing 100s of members.
Now here is where the problem comes in. Although every PMC is free to
establish its normal rules, the legal system also plays a part. The
structure of the ASF exists to protect us. In order to be protected,
decision makers must be PMC members. Decisions include code changes.
The discussions taking place on pmc@jakarta.apache.org regarding how to fix
the situation take different directions, but I think that everyone agrees
that the vast majority of Jakarta Committers must be on a responsible PMC.
The question, as I see it, is really about *how* we're going to organize it,
not *if*.
--- Noel
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by Harish Krishnaswamy <hk...@comcast.net>.
> Your call. As long as you're active, you pass muster to be on the PMC.
> Whether you want to be is up to you and how happy you are joining
> something that is not too sure about responsibilities etc.
>
> I've seen nothing that says you can't quit at any time though, so I think
> there's very little risk involved in jumping in.
I wasn't too worried about the risk rather doing justice to the role ;)
Thanks for all the answers.
-Harish
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
>
>
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> >
> > On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
> >
> >
> >>If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if
> >>the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and
> >>regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member
> >>and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing
> >>skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal
> >>binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between
> >>a committer and Apache?
> >
> >
> > Yep. There is very little legal binding between a committer and Apache,
> > apart from the legal fact that the committer is donating code to Apache.
>
> I am sorry if I am being naive, but can it not be enforced that a
> committer should also be bound the way a member is? That way the
> responsibilities are borne by every committer and we could have a very
> small team of members for governance.
Depends what you mean by member here. ASF Member-ness is special and
something legal to do with the organisation. PMC member-ness, is meant to
apply to all active committers apparantly. Other Apache TLPs function in
this way [some, not all], and apparantly this is the way the PMC is
expected to behave. Basically any somewhat active, trusted committer
should be on the PMC.
> > By being an active committer, you are eligible. As for what
> > responsibilities are, attempts to define the role of a PMC member have not
> > gone well so far but will hopefully get there.
>
> I am sorry, I meant to say if I would qualify for the responsibilities.
Your call. As long as you're active, you pass muster to be on the PMC.
Whether you want to be is up to you and how happy you are joining
something that is not too sure about responsibilities etc.
I've seen nothing that says you can't quit at any time though, so I think
there's very little risk involved in jumping in.
Hen
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by Harish Krishnaswamy <hk...@comcast.net>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
>
>
>>If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if
>>the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and
>>regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member
>>and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing
>>skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal
>>binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between
>>a committer and Apache?
>
>
> Yep. There is very little legal binding between a committer and Apache,
> apart from the legal fact that the committer is donating code to Apache.
I am sorry if I am being naive, but can it not be enforced that a committer should also be bound the
way a member is? That way the responsibilities are borne by every committer and we could have a very
small team of members for governance.
> An Apache Member is a part of the Apache organisation, while a PMC member
> is recognised by the Apache organisation as being responsible for that
> TLP. There's no need for them to be an Apache Member however.
>
> [IANAL etc, this is how I see it from descriptions people have given]
>
>
>>I am certainly willing (and want) to share some responsibilities to help
>>grow Jakarta but I want to be clear on the responsibilities I will be
>>taking on as a member and if I will be eligible.
>
>
> By being an active committer, you are eligible. As for what
> responsibilities are, attempts to define the role of a PMC member have not
> gone well so far but will hopefully get there.
I am sorry, I meant to say if I would qualify for the responsibilities.
>
>
> Hen
>
>
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
> If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if
> the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and
> regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member
> and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing
> skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal
> binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between
> a committer and Apache?
Yep. There is very little legal binding between a committer and Apache,
apart from the legal fact that the committer is donating code to Apache.
An Apache Member is a part of the Apache organisation, while a PMC member
is recognised by the Apache organisation as being responsible for that
TLP. There's no need for them to be an Apache Member however.
[IANAL etc, this is how I see it from descriptions people have given]
> I am certainly willing (and want) to share some responsibilities to help
> grow Jakarta but I want to be clear on the responsibilities I will be
> taking on as a member and if I will be eligible.
By being an active committer, you are eligible. As for what
responsibilities are, attempts to define the role of a PMC member have not
gone well so far but will hopefully get there.
Hen
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:17 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
>
>
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>> On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:08 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
>>> Ah now it all makes sense :)
>>>
>>> May be this should be included with the CLA and then there would be
>>> no reason to lobby for more members, really.
>> We want to make sure that the PMC members are committers who
>> understand the responsibility and are willing to take it. Automatic
>> inclusion doesn't do that.
>
> But it seems that the exact responsibilities is not really laid out
> and is the primary reason for confusion?
Oh, yes indeed. Something we are going to resolve.
geir
>
>
>
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by Harish Krishnaswamy <hk...@comcast.net>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:08 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
>
>> Ah now it all makes sense :)
>>
>> May be this should be included with the CLA and then there would be
>> no reason to lobby for more members, really.
>
>
> We want to make sure that the PMC members are committers who understand
> the responsibility and are willing to take it. Automatic inclusion
> doesn't do that.
But it seems that the exact responsibilities is not really laid out and is the primary reason for
confusion?
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:08 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
> Ah now it all makes sense :)
>
> May be this should be included with the CLA and then there would be no
> reason to lobby for more members, really.
We want to make sure that the PMC members are committers who understand
the responsibility and are willing to take it. Automatic inclusion
doesn't do that.
geir
>
> -Harish
>
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>>> I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer.
>> <<grin>> You catch on quickly. :-) The difference is that a PMC
>> member, as
>> a normative statement, has a binding vote on the project. By allowing
>> someone to become a Committer, you allow direct contribution to the
>> codebase, but the PMC is overseeing it. The Committer contributes,
>> but does
>> not have a say. So there is a natural progression from:
>> Contributor (patches) -> Committer (authorized access) -> PMC member
>>> If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am
>>> not sure the PMC can attain vast majority.
>> It doesn't. 300+ Committers are already doing most of what they need
>> to do,
>> without the benefit of being on a PMC.
>>> Is there a legal binding between a [PMC] member and Jakarta/Apache
>>> that does not exist between a committer and Apache?
>> Please see:
>> http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?
>> listName=general@incubator.apache
>> .org&msgNo=2711.
>> --- Noel
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by Harish Krishnaswamy <hk...@comcast.net>.
Ah now it all makes sense :)
May be this should be included with the CLA and then there would be no reason to lobby for more
members, really.
-Harish
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer.
>
>
> <<grin>> You catch on quickly. :-) The difference is that a PMC member, as
> a normative statement, has a binding vote on the project. By allowing
> someone to become a Committer, you allow direct contribution to the
> codebase, but the PMC is overseeing it. The Committer contributes, but does
> not have a say. So there is a natural progression from:
>
> Contributor (patches) -> Committer (authorized access) -> PMC member
>
>
>>If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am
>>not sure the PMC can attain vast majority.
>
>
> It doesn't. 300+ Committers are already doing most of what they need to do,
> without the benefit of being on a PMC.
>
>
>>Is there a legal binding between a [PMC] member and Jakarta/Apache
>>that does not exist between a committer and Apache?
>
>
> Please see:
> http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=general@incubator.apache
> .org&msgNo=2711.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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>
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RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer.
<<grin>> You catch on quickly. :-) The difference is that a PMC member, as
a normative statement, has a binding vote on the project. By allowing
someone to become a Committer, you allow direct contribution to the
codebase, but the PMC is overseeing it. The Committer contributes, but does
not have a say. So there is a natural progression from:
Contributor (patches) -> Committer (authorized access) -> PMC member
> If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am
> not sure the PMC can attain vast majority.
It doesn't. 300+ Committers are already doing most of what they need to do,
without the benefit of being on a PMC.
> Is there a legal binding between a [PMC] member and Jakarta/Apache
> that does not exist between a committer and Apache?
Please see:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=general@incubator.apache
.org&msgNo=2711.
--- Noel
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by Harish Krishnaswamy <hk...@comcast.net>.
If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if the role of a PMC member is
simply to follow some guidelines and regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC
member and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am not sure the
PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does
not exist between a committer and Apache?
I am certainly willing (and want) to share some responsibilities to help grow Jakarta but I want to
be clear on the responsibilities I will be taking on as a member and if I will be eligible.
Thanks,
Harish
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
>
>
>>>First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of
>
> the
>
>>>PMC, which I'd be happy to do.
>
>
>>Thanks for the offer but I don't know if I would qualify for one.
>>The description on the website is pretty broad.
>
>
> Harish, as I see it, part of the problem comes from a misunderstanding about
> the nature of the PMC. The term "management" has been misunderstood in the
> context of an ASF Project.
>
> The intended purpose for the PMC is that the PMC members are the core group
> making all decisions related to an ASF Project. That includes voting on
> code changes, voting on new Committers, voting on new PMC members. Not all
> Committers may be on the PMC, but the majority should be -- and those who
> aren't do not have binding votes (see explanation below). I recently did a
> quick survey of some projects:
>
> Project # PMC # Committers %
> HTTP Server: 43 59 73%
> APR 29 43 67%
> Cocoon 31 67 46%
> Jakarta 42+ 352 12%
>
> Not all Committers are still active, so the ratio of PMC to active
> Committers is higher, but the difference is still pretty clear. The Jakarta
> PMC, using the current structure, is missing 100s of members.
>
> Now here is where the problem comes in. Although every PMC is free to
> establish its normal rules, the legal system also plays a part. The
> structure of the ASF exists to protect us. In order to be protected,
> decision makers must be PMC members. Decisions include code changes.
>
> The discussions taking place on pmc@jakarta.apache.org regarding how to fix
> the situation take different directions, but I think that everyone agrees
> that the vast majority of Jakarta Committers must be on a responsible PMC.
> The question, as I see it, is really about *how* we're going to organize it,
> not *if*.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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>
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