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Posted to users@maven.apache.org by "Lyons, Roy" <Ro...@cmegroup.com> on 2014/01/06 18:43:55 UTC
short and snappy description of what Maven is
on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it says:
We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
"Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool."
Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
I would like to submit my short description for review.
"Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has great dependency management features."
I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this is what it really is.
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Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Graham Leggett <mi...@sharp.fm>.
On 06 Jan 2014, at 7:43 PM, "Lyons, Roy" <Ro...@cmegroup.com> wrote:
> I would like to submit my short description for review.
>
> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has great dependency management features."
>
> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this is what it really is.
Big +1.
Regards,
Graham
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Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Ron Wheeler <rw...@artifact-software.com>.
On 06/01/2014 3:08 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
> Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question. Comparing Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle now a serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous project to maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am particularly sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of gradle that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or address this?
The more that can be said to relate Maven to what the reader already
knows or is considering, the more useful the paragraph.
There is no reason why the following paragraphs could not point deeper
into the documentation for comparisons with Ant or Gradle.
I would suggest that the first paragraph not include links so that the
reader can at least get through one clear section before starting to
jump around and get carried off into the world of hyperlinks.
Ron
> On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote:
>>
>>> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try Maven.
>>> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than Ant or
>>> whatever they are using now.
>>>
>>> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
>>>
>>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in a
>>> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application.
>>> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
>>>
>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
>>> great dependency management features."
>>
>> I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the
>> procedural philosophy most tools take
>>
>>
>>> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true.
>>> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain this one.
>>> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time to
>>> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
>>> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that would
>>> work.
>>
>> Yes that is the idea
>>
>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does have
>>>> the ability to use those dependency features.
>>>>
>>>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig because
>>>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one sentence
>>>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless
>>>> something like:
>>>>
>>>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in a
>>>> repository."
>>>>
>>>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
>>>>
>>>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
>>>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to learn
>>>> how to use it?
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it
>>>>> says:
>>>>>
>>>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool."
>>>>>
>>>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
>>>>> great dependency management features."
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this
>>>>> is what it really is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
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Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Baptiste Mathus <bm...@batmat.net>.
Lost battle imo.
Not sure there's a way to describe the difference between maven and gradle
in a way everyone would agree on...
Le 7 janv. 2014 03:42, "Ron Wheeler" <rw...@artifact-software.com> a
écrit :
> I am not sure that you want to start a range war in the opening paragraph.
> If there is a concise second or third sentence that clearly explains the
> difference between Ant and Maven, it would be a great idea to add that.
> If Gradle is likely to be in the running for a new developer, it might be
> interesting to have a sentence explaining the difference. Need to be
> careful not to turn off a new person by an obscure argument that does not
> address the decision points in a way that a new person would understand.
>
> Ron
>
> On 06/01/2014 4:33 PM, Stephen Connolly wrote:
>
>> I don't want a religious war. If Gradle or ANT are a better fit for the
>> way
>> some people think about building software... well good for them... and the
>> faster we can help them realise that Maven takes a different tack the
>> better.
>>
>> I happen to believe that the power of Maven comes from being model driven
>> rather than procedural, which ultimately allows for a richer IDE
>> experience, but consequently you lose some flexibility in your build
>> process. It is a tradeoff I happen to like the Maven balance of, but I am
>> not so arrogant to presume that Maven's balance suits everyone.
>>
>> The Maven repository has grown beyond just Maven, so that is no longer a
>> key differentiator for Maven.
>>
>> The differentiator is in the declarative build rather than procedural
>> build...
>>
>> With Ant you have a mostly pure procedural build.
>>
>> With Maven you have a mostly pure declarative build.
>>
>> With Gradle you have a hodge-podge mix of both.
>>
>> (By declarative, I mean <packaging>jar</packaging> is all I need to
>> declare, maven knows how everything fits into that)
>>
>> So let's let others go to the tools that suit their tastes, and the faster
>> that we help them there, the less bitching about how "Maven is crap
>> (because it doesn't suit my taste)" we will hear.
>>
>> It's like marmite: you either love it or hate it!
>>
>>
>> On 6 January 2014 20:08, Russell Gold <ru...@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>> Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question. Comparing
>>> Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle now a
>>> serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous project
>>> to
>>> maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am
>>> particularly
>>> sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of gradle
>>> that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or address
>>> this?
>>>
>>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly <
>>> stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try Maven.
>>>>> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than Ant
>>>>>
>>>> or
>>>
>>>> whatever they are using now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in
>>>>>
>>>> a
>>>
>>>> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application.
>>>>> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
>>>>> great dependency management features."
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the
>>>> procedural philosophy most tools take
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true.
>>>>> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain this
>>>>>
>>>> one.
>>>
>>>> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time to
>>>>> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
>>>>> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that would
>>>>> work.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes that is the idea
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does have
>>>>>> the ability to use those dependency features.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig
>>>>>>
>>>>> because
>>>
>>>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one
>>>>>>
>>>>> sentence
>>>
>>>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless
>>>>>> something like:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed
>>>>>>
>>>>> in a
>>>
>>>> repository."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
>>>>>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to
>>>>>>
>>>>> learn
>>>
>>>> how to use it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> says:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> tool."
>>>
>>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
>>>>>>> great dependency management features."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core,
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> is what it really is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>
> --
> Ron Wheeler
> President
> Artifact Software Inc
> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>
>
Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Ron Wheeler <rw...@artifact-software.com>.
I am not sure that you want to start a range war in the opening paragraph.
If there is a concise second or third sentence that clearly explains the
difference between Ant and Maven, it would be a great idea to add that.
If Gradle is likely to be in the running for a new developer, it might
be interesting to have a sentence explaining the difference. Need to be
careful not to turn off a new person by an obscure argument that does
not address the decision points in a way that a new person would understand.
Ron
On 06/01/2014 4:33 PM, Stephen Connolly wrote:
> I don't want a religious war. If Gradle or ANT are a better fit for the way
> some people think about building software... well good for them... and the
> faster we can help them realise that Maven takes a different tack the
> better.
>
> I happen to believe that the power of Maven comes from being model driven
> rather than procedural, which ultimately allows for a richer IDE
> experience, but consequently you lose some flexibility in your build
> process. It is a tradeoff I happen to like the Maven balance of, but I am
> not so arrogant to presume that Maven's balance suits everyone.
>
> The Maven repository has grown beyond just Maven, so that is no longer a
> key differentiator for Maven.
>
> The differentiator is in the declarative build rather than procedural
> build...
>
> With Ant you have a mostly pure procedural build.
>
> With Maven you have a mostly pure declarative build.
>
> With Gradle you have a hodge-podge mix of both.
>
> (By declarative, I mean <packaging>jar</packaging> is all I need to
> declare, maven knows how everything fits into that)
>
> So let's let others go to the tools that suit their tastes, and the faster
> that we help them there, the less bitching about how "Maven is crap
> (because it doesn't suit my taste)" we will hear.
>
> It's like marmite: you either love it or hate it!
>
>
> On 6 January 2014 20:08, Russell Gold <ru...@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question. Comparing
>> Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle now a
>> serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous project to
>> maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am particularly
>> sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of gradle
>> that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or address this?
>>
>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly <
>> stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try Maven.
>>>> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than Ant
>> or
>>>> whatever they are using now.
>>>>
>>>> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
>>>>
>>>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in
>> a
>>>> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application.
>>>> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
>>>>
>>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
>>>> great dependency management features."
>>>
>>> I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the
>>> procedural philosophy most tools take
>>>
>>>
>>>> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true.
>>>> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain this
>> one.
>>>> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time to
>>>> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
>>>> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that would
>>>> work.
>>>
>>> Yes that is the idea
>>>
>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does have
>>>>> the ability to use those dependency features.
>>>>>
>>>>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig
>> because
>>>>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one
>> sentence
>>>>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless
>>>>> something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed
>> in a
>>>>> repository."
>>>>>
>>>>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
>>>>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to
>> learn
>>>>> how to use it?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it
>>>>>> says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension
>> tool."
>>>>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
>>>>>> great dependency management features."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this
>>>>>> is what it really is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
--
Ron Wheeler
President
Artifact Software Inc
email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
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Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Thomas Broyer <t....@gmail.com>.
Le 6 janv. 2014 23:25, "Stephen Connolly" <st...@gmail.com>
a écrit :
>
> On 6 January 2014 22:18, Thomas Broyer <t....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Le 6 janv. 2014 22:34, "Stephen Connolly" <
stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com
> > >
> > a écrit :
> > >
> > > I don't want a religious war. If Gradle or ANT are a better fit for
the
> > way
> > > some people think about building software... well good for them... and
> > the
> > > faster we can help them realise that Maven takes a different tack the
> > > better.
> > >
> > > I happen to believe that the power of Maven comes from being model
driven
> > > rather than procedural, which ultimately allows for a richer IDE
> > > experience, but consequently you lose some flexibility in your build
> > > process. It is a tradeoff I happen to like the Maven balance of, but
I am
> > > not so arrogant to presume that Maven's balance suits everyone.
> > >
> > > The Maven repository has grown beyond just Maven, so that is no
longer a
> > > key differentiator for Maven.
> > >
> > > The differentiator is in the declarative build rather than procedural
> > > build...
> >
> > I disagree (when comparing with Gradle). The differentiator to me is
going
> > beyond the build tool: project management and comprehension tool. Things
> > like the m-release-p, m-scm-p, m-site-p, etc. No other tool has those
> > AFAICT, and not everybody wants or needs them.
> > On the negative side: linear lifecycle, fixed number of classpaths
(scopes)
> > that forces you to use separate modules (not a problem per se) thus put
> > files in separate folder trees (more of an issue, even if it means
losing
> > IDE support), etc. Many of which contribute to making it really hard to
> > migrate from Ant to Maven.
> >
> > > With Ant you have a mostly pure procedural build.
> > >
> > > With Maven you have a mostly pure declarative build.
> > >
> > > With Gradle you have a hodge-podge mix of both.
> > >
> > > (By declarative, I mean <packaging>jar</packaging> is all I need to
> > > declare, maven knows how everything fits into that)
> >
> > "apply plugin: java" is all you need to declare in Gradle ;-)
> >
> > (OK, you also need a couple other lines to deploy to a Maven or Ivy
repo,
> > but no more than in a POM)
> >
>
> *but* if you see a maven build, you know it pretty much has to be
> declarative...
>
> if you see a gradle build it can add a whole procedural set of steps quite
> trivially on top..
Ack.
> (you can also add procedural stuff to maven, but it is hard and ugly
> because of the syntax and the way maven forces you to work)
>
> Basically I view the main "advantage" of gradle as it's main
> "disadvantage"... others are free to invert that point of view if/as they
> see fit, but I have yet to see the benefits of the flexibility that gradle
> adds... I have only seen downsides... I'll not go ramming my PoV down your
> mouth... as long as you don't try and ram your PoV down mine ;-)
I respect your PoV ;-)
> >
> > > So let's let others go to the tools that suit their tastes, and the
> > faster
> > > that we help them there, the less bitching about how "Maven is crap
> > > (because it doesn't suit my taste)" we will hear.
> > >
> > > It's like marmite: you either love it or hate it!
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6 January 2014 20:08, Russell Gold <ru...@oracle.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question.
Comparing
> > > > Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle
now a
> > > > serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous
> > project to
> > > > maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am
> > particularly
> > > > sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of
> > gradle
> > > > that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or
address
> > this?
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly <
> > > > stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try
> > Maven.
> > > > >> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better
than
> > Ant
> > > > or
> > > > >> whatever they are using now.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts
managed
> > in
> > > > a
> > > > >> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my
application.
> > > > >> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which
> > has
> > > > >> great dependency management features."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than
the
> > > > > procedural philosophy most tools take
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true.
> > > > >> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain
> > this
> > > > one.
> > > > >> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the
time
> > to
> > > > >> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
> > > > >> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that
> > would
> > > > >> work.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes that is the idea
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Ron
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now
does
> > have
> > > > >>> the ability to use those dependency features.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the
sig
> > > > because
> > > > >>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a
one
> > > > sentence
> > > > >>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information
> > unless
> > > > >>> something like:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts
> > managed
> > > > in a
> > > > >>> repository."
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
> > > > >>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying
to
> > > > learn
> > > > >>> how to use it?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> on
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Siteit
> > > > >>>> says:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and
comprehension
> > > > tool."
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool
which
> > has
> > > > >>>> great dependency management features."
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its
core,
> > this
> > > > >>>> is what it really is.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Ron Wheeler
> > > > >> President
> > > > >> Artifact Software Inc
> > > > >> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> > > > >> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> > > > >> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Sent from my phone
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> >
Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Stephen Connolly <st...@gmail.com>.
On 6 January 2014 22:18, Thomas Broyer <t....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Le 6 janv. 2014 22:34, "Stephen Connolly" <stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com
> >
> a écrit :
> >
> > I don't want a religious war. If Gradle or ANT are a better fit for the
> way
> > some people think about building software... well good for them... and
> the
> > faster we can help them realise that Maven takes a different tack the
> > better.
> >
> > I happen to believe that the power of Maven comes from being model driven
> > rather than procedural, which ultimately allows for a richer IDE
> > experience, but consequently you lose some flexibility in your build
> > process. It is a tradeoff I happen to like the Maven balance of, but I am
> > not so arrogant to presume that Maven's balance suits everyone.
> >
> > The Maven repository has grown beyond just Maven, so that is no longer a
> > key differentiator for Maven.
> >
> > The differentiator is in the declarative build rather than procedural
> > build...
>
> I disagree (when comparing with Gradle). The differentiator to me is going
> beyond the build tool: project management and comprehension tool. Things
> like the m-release-p, m-scm-p, m-site-p, etc. No other tool has those
> AFAICT, and not everybody wants or needs them.
> On the negative side: linear lifecycle, fixed number of classpaths (scopes)
> that forces you to use separate modules (not a problem per se) thus put
> files in separate folder trees (more of an issue, even if it means losing
> IDE support), etc. Many of which contribute to making it really hard to
> migrate from Ant to Maven.
>
> > With Ant you have a mostly pure procedural build.
> >
> > With Maven you have a mostly pure declarative build.
> >
> > With Gradle you have a hodge-podge mix of both.
> >
> > (By declarative, I mean <packaging>jar</packaging> is all I need to
> > declare, maven knows how everything fits into that)
>
> "apply plugin: java" is all you need to declare in Gradle ;-)
>
> (OK, you also need a couple other lines to deploy to a Maven or Ivy repo,
> but no more than in a POM)
>
*but* if you see a maven build, you know it pretty much has to be
declarative...
if you see a gradle build it can add a whole procedural set of steps quite
trivially on top..
(you can also add procedural stuff to maven, but it is hard and ugly
because of the syntax and the way maven forces you to work)
Basically I view the main "advantage" of gradle as it's main
"disadvantage"... others are free to invert that point of view if/as they
see fit, but I have yet to see the benefits of the flexibility that gradle
adds... I have only seen downsides... I'll not go ramming my PoV down your
mouth... as long as you don't try and ram your PoV down mine ;-)
>
> > So let's let others go to the tools that suit their tastes, and the
> faster
> > that we help them there, the less bitching about how "Maven is crap
> > (because it doesn't suit my taste)" we will hear.
> >
> > It's like marmite: you either love it or hate it!
> >
> >
> > On 6 January 2014 20:08, Russell Gold <ru...@oracle.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question. Comparing
> > > Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle now a
> > > serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous
> project to
> > > maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am
> particularly
> > > sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of
> gradle
> > > that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or address
> this?
> > >
> > > On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly <
> > > stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try
> Maven.
> > > >> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than
> Ant
> > > or
> > > >> whatever they are using now.
> > > >>
> > > >> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
> > > >>
> > > >> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed
> in
> > > a
> > > >> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application.
> > > >> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
> > > >>
> > > >> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which
> has
> > > >> great dependency management features."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the
> > > > procedural philosophy most tools take
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true.
> > > >> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain
> this
> > > one.
> > > >> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time
> to
> > > >> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
> > > >> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that
> would
> > > >> work.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes that is the idea
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> Ron
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does
> have
> > > >>> the ability to use those dependency features.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig
> > > because
> > > >>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one
> > > sentence
> > > >>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information
> unless
> > > >>> something like:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts
> managed
> > > in a
> > > >>> repository."
> > > >>>
> > > >>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
> > > >>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to
> > > learn
> > > >>> how to use it?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> on
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Siteit
> > > >>>> says:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension
> > > tool."
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which
> has
> > > >>>> great dependency management features."
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core,
> this
> > > >>>> is what it really is.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Ron Wheeler
> > > >> President
> > > >> Artifact Software Inc
> > > >> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> > > >> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> > > >> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sent from my phone
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > >
> > >
>
Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Thomas Broyer <t....@gmail.com>.
Le 6 janv. 2014 22:34, "Stephen Connolly" <st...@gmail.com>
a écrit :
>
> I don't want a religious war. If Gradle or ANT are a better fit for the
way
> some people think about building software... well good for them... and the
> faster we can help them realise that Maven takes a different tack the
> better.
>
> I happen to believe that the power of Maven comes from being model driven
> rather than procedural, which ultimately allows for a richer IDE
> experience, but consequently you lose some flexibility in your build
> process. It is a tradeoff I happen to like the Maven balance of, but I am
> not so arrogant to presume that Maven's balance suits everyone.
>
> The Maven repository has grown beyond just Maven, so that is no longer a
> key differentiator for Maven.
>
> The differentiator is in the declarative build rather than procedural
> build...
I disagree (when comparing with Gradle). The differentiator to me is going
beyond the build tool: project management and comprehension tool. Things
like the m-release-p, m-scm-p, m-site-p, etc. No other tool has those
AFAICT, and not everybody wants or needs them.
On the negative side: linear lifecycle, fixed number of classpaths (scopes)
that forces you to use separate modules (not a problem per se) thus put
files in separate folder trees (more of an issue, even if it means losing
IDE support), etc. Many of which contribute to making it really hard to
migrate from Ant to Maven.
> With Ant you have a mostly pure procedural build.
>
> With Maven you have a mostly pure declarative build.
>
> With Gradle you have a hodge-podge mix of both.
>
> (By declarative, I mean <packaging>jar</packaging> is all I need to
> declare, maven knows how everything fits into that)
"apply plugin: java" is all you need to declare in Gradle ;-)
(OK, you also need a couple other lines to deploy to a Maven or Ivy repo,
but no more than in a POM)
> So let's let others go to the tools that suit their tastes, and the faster
> that we help them there, the less bitching about how "Maven is crap
> (because it doesn't suit my taste)" we will hear.
>
> It's like marmite: you either love it or hate it!
>
>
> On 6 January 2014 20:08, Russell Gold <ru...@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> > Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question. Comparing
> > Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle now a
> > serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous
project to
> > maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am
particularly
> > sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of gradle
> > that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or address
this?
> >
> > On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly <
> > stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote:
> > >
> > >> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try
Maven.
> > >> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than
Ant
> > or
> > >> whatever they are using now.
> > >>
> > >> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
> > >>
> > >> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed
in
> > a
> > >> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application.
> > >> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
> > >>
> > >> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
> > >> great dependency management features."
> > >
> > >
> > > I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the
> > > procedural philosophy most tools take
> > >
> > >
> > >> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true.
> > >> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain
this
> > one.
> > >> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time
to
> > >> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
> > >> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that
would
> > >> work.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes that is the idea
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Ron
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does
have
> > >>> the ability to use those dependency features.
> > >>>
> > >>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig
> > because
> > >>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one
> > sentence
> > >>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless
> > >>> something like:
> > >>>
> > >>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed
> > in a
> > >>> repository."
> > >>>
> > >>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
> > >>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to
> > learn
> > >>> how to use it?
> > >>>
> > >>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Siteit
> > >>>> says:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension
> > tool."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which
has
> > >>>> great dependency management features."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core,
this
> > >>>> is what it really is.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Ron Wheeler
> > >> President
> > >> Artifact Software Inc
> > >> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> > >> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> > >> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sent from my phone
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> >
> >
Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Stephen Connolly <st...@gmail.com>.
I don't want a religious war. If Gradle or ANT are a better fit for the way
some people think about building software... well good for them... and the
faster we can help them realise that Maven takes a different tack the
better.
I happen to believe that the power of Maven comes from being model driven
rather than procedural, which ultimately allows for a richer IDE
experience, but consequently you lose some flexibility in your build
process. It is a tradeoff I happen to like the Maven balance of, but I am
not so arrogant to presume that Maven's balance suits everyone.
The Maven repository has grown beyond just Maven, so that is no longer a
key differentiator for Maven.
The differentiator is in the declarative build rather than procedural
build...
With Ant you have a mostly pure procedural build.
With Maven you have a mostly pure declarative build.
With Gradle you have a hodge-podge mix of both.
(By declarative, I mean <packaging>jar</packaging> is all I need to
declare, maven knows how everything fits into that)
So let's let others go to the tools that suit their tastes, and the faster
that we help them there, the less bitching about how "Maven is crap
(because it doesn't suit my taste)" we will hear.
It's like marmite: you either love it or hate it!
On 6 January 2014 20:08, Russell Gold <ru...@oracle.com> wrote:
> Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question. Comparing
> Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle now a
> serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous project to
> maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am particularly
> sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of gradle
> that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or address this?
>
> On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly <
> stephen.alan.connolly@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote:
> >
> >> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try Maven.
> >> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than Ant
> or
> >> whatever they are using now.
> >>
> >> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
> >>
> >> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in
> a
> >> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application.
> >> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
> >>
> >> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
> >> great dependency management features."
> >
> >
> > I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the
> > procedural philosophy most tools take
> >
> >
> >> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true.
> >> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain this
> one.
> >> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time to
> >> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
> >> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that would
> >> work.
> >
> >
> > Yes that is the idea
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Ron
> >>
> >>
> >> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
> >>
> >>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does have
> >>> the ability to use those dependency features.
> >>>
> >>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig
> because
> >>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one
> sentence
> >>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless
> >>> something like:
> >>>
> >>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed
> in a
> >>> repository."
> >>>
> >>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
> >>>
> >>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
> >>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to
> learn
> >>> how to use it?
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it
> >>>> says:
> >>>>
> >>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
> >>>>
> >>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension
> tool."
> >>>>
> >>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
> >>>> great dependency management features."
> >>>>
> >>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this
> >>>> is what it really is.
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ron Wheeler
> >> President
> >> Artifact Software Inc
> >> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> >> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> >> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Sent from my phone
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>
>
Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Russell Gold <ru...@oracle.com>.
Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question. Comparing Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle now a serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous project to maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am particularly sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of gradle that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or address this?
On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote:
>
>> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try Maven.
>> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than Ant or
>> whatever they are using now.
>>
>> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
>>
>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in a
>> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application.
>> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
>>
>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
>> great dependency management features."
>
>
> I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the
> procedural philosophy most tools take
>
>
>> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true.
>> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain this one.
>> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time to
>> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
>> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that would
>> work.
>
>
> Yes that is the idea
>
>
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does have
>>> the ability to use those dependency features.
>>>
>>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig because
>>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one sentence
>>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless
>>> something like:
>>>
>>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in a
>>> repository."
>>>
>>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
>>>
>>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
>>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to learn
>>> how to use it?
>>>
>>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it
>>>> says:
>>>>
>>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
>>>>
>>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool."
>>>>
>>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
>>>>
>>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
>>>> great dependency management features."
>>>>
>>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this
>>>> is what it really is.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Ron Wheeler
>> President
>> Artifact Software Inc
>> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
>> skype: ronaldmwheeler
>> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>>
>>
>
> --
> Sent from my phone
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Russell Gold <ru...@oracle.com>.
I missed this earlier - I agree. The biggest advantage I find with Maven over tools that have adopted its dependency management philosophy is that every build essentially follows a predictable pattern, rather than being free form. A new developer automatically knows how to invoke it. That is most definitely not guaranteed to be true with any other build system that I know of.
So something like:
Maven is a build tool which not only simplifies the common tasks of defining a build, but also makes it easy for new developers to know how to use the created build.
On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the
> procedural philosophy most tools take
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Stephen Connolly <st...@gmail.com>.
On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote:
> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try Maven.
> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than Ant or
> whatever they are using now.
>
> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
>
> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in a
> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application.
> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
>
> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
> great dependency management features."
I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the
procedural philosophy most tools take
> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true.
> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain this one.
> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time to
> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that would
> work.
Yes that is the idea
>
> Ron
>
>
> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
>
>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does have
>> the ability to use those dependency features.
>>
>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig because
>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one sentence
>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless
>> something like:
>>
>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in a
>> repository."
>>
>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
>>
>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to learn
>> how to use it?
>>
>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it
>>> says:
>>>
>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
>>>
>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool."
>>>
>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
>>>
>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
>>> great dependency management features."
>>>
>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this
>>> is what it really is.
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
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>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Ron Wheeler
> President
> Artifact Software Inc
> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
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>
>
--
Sent from my phone
Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Ron Wheeler <rw...@artifact-software.com>.
I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try Maven.
They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than Ant
or whatever they are using now.
Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask.
"Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in
a repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application.
At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository.
"Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
great dependency management features." is pretty clear for a single
sentence description and it true.
Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain this one.
Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time to
read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool.
As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that would
work.
Ron
On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote:
> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does have the ability to use those dependency features.
>
> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig because this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one sentence description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless something like:
>
> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in a repository."
>
> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
>
> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to learn how to use it?
>
> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com> wrote:
>
>> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it says:
>>
>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
>>
>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool."
>>
>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would like to submit my short description for review.
>>
>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has great dependency management features."
>>
>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this is what it really is.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>
>
--
Ron Wheeler
President
Artifact Software Inc
email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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RE: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Richard Sand <rs...@idfconnect.com>.
When people ask me what Maven is, I tell them it's a build and library
management tool. If I take it a step further I explain it manages library
and dependency versions akin to how SCM systems manage source code. It's
not a perfect analogy but I find it works for a lay description.
Richard Sand | CEO
IDF Connect, Inc.
2207 Concord Ave, #359
Wilmington | Delaware 19803 | USA
Office: +1 888 765 1611 | Fax: +1 866 765 7284
Mobile: +1 267 984 3651
-----Original Message-----
From: Russell Gold [mailto:russell.gold@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 12:57 PM
To: Maven Users List
Subject: Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does have the
ability to use those dependency features.
I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig because
this is work email). It's not clear to me that you can make a one sentence
description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless
something like:
"Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in a
repository."
But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to learn
how to use it?
On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com> wrote:
> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it
says:
>
> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
>
> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool."
>
> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
>
>
>
>
> I would like to submit my short description for review.
>
> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
great dependency management features."
>
> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this
is what it really is.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
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Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Stephen Connolly <st...@gmail.com>.
The goal is to put this on the front page so that people know enough to
decide if they need/want to dig deeper
On Monday, 6 January 2014, Russell Gold wrote:
> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does have the
> ability to use those dependency features.
>
> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig because
> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one sentence
> description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless
> something like:
>
> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in a
> repository."
>
> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
>
> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this
> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to learn
> how to use it?
>
> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Roy.Lyons@cmegroup.com<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it
> says:
> >
> > We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
> >
> > "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool."
> >
> > Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I would like to submit my short description for review.
> >
> > "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has
> great dependency management features."
> >
> > I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this
> is what it really is.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org<javascript:;>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org<javascript:;>
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org <javascript:;>
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org<javascript:;>
>
>
--
Sent from my phone
Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Russell Gold <ru...@oracle.com>.
Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does have the ability to use those dependency features.
I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig because this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one sentence description that will provide sufficiently useful information unless something like:
"Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed in a repository."
But that is not going to help people coming new to the project.
I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to learn how to use it?
On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <Ro...@cmegroup.com> wrote:
> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it says:
>
> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
>
> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool."
>
> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
>
>
>
>
> I would like to submit my short description for review.
>
> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has great dependency management features."
>
> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this is what it really is.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: short and snappy description of what Maven is
Posted by Robert Kuropkat <rk...@t-sciences.com>.
The mention of convention over configuration really is key. The biggest
problem I see when people switch from Ant to Maven is they really don't
want to buy into the convention philosophy. Even if they are willing to
do so, their project usually is not laid out in a complimentary way and
it is likely they do not manage third party libraries outside the
context of the project (ie. a nexus/artifactory repo). Because of
this, they either waste a lot of time trying to contort Maven into
working like Ant, or they spend much more time than anticipated
re-arranging their projects and weaving the idea of jar repo into their
processes and infrastructure, neither of which leaves people with a
happy experience.
As a few others have mentioned, the features and goals of the various
build tools are nearly the same. It's the driving philosophy that makes
the difference. Understanding that it is more of a philosophical
comparison/change rather than just a tool/feature comparison I think is
critical to people starting up with Maven with proper expectations.
Robert Kuropkat
On 01/06/2014 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy wrote:
> on https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Site it says:
>
> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is:
>
> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension tool."
>
> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is.
>
>
>
>
> I would like to submit my short description for review.
>
> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which has great dependency management features."
>
> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, this is what it really is.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@maven.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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