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Posted to dev@forrest.apache.org by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> on 2004/04/27 12:31:48 UTC
[Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Some weeks ago, he Xml Project has proposed to the board a plan of
reorganization. It contemplated the possible spinoff of Forrest to
Cocoon, but preliminar discussions with Cocoon members have showed that
maybe another option would be better: going top level.
This would create a forrest.apache.org Project, with it's own PMC and
voting guidelines. We can still decide to keep SVN open to Cocoon
committers as we do now, and keep on doing development like now, except
that we will have a PMC and report to the board, which is how Projects
in Apache were thought to function from the start.
If we decide to try this route we shall vote for it and ask the XML PMC
and board for it.
WDOT?
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 28 Apr 2004, at 08:52, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> With more thought, I have changed my mind and now agree with them that
> we should be indipendent.
+1, and I'm confident that Forrest's size is irrelevant to becoming a
TLP: the concept of subprojects is flawed with respect to optimizing
oversight anyhow.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Jeff Turner wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 12:31:48PM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>>Some weeks ago, he Xml Project has proposed to the board a plan of
>>reorganization. It contemplated the possible spinoff of Forrest to
>>Cocoon, but preliminar discussions with Cocoon members have showed that
>>maybe another option would be better: going top level.
>>
>>This would create a forrest.apache.org Project, with it's own PMC and
>>voting guidelines. We can still decide to keep SVN open to Cocoon
>>committers as we do now, and keep on doing development like now, except
>>that we will have a PMC and report to the board, which is how Projects
>>in Apache were thought to function from the start.
>>
>>If we decide to try this route we shall vote for it and ask the XML PMC
>>and board for it.
>>
>>WDOT?
>
>
> AFAIK the main purpose of a PMC is sorting out legal cruft.
Not really. Each Apache project should have a PMC which contains all the
binding voting members, or at least this was the initial intention. What
you are referring to IIUC is the private PMC list, that is used to deal
with sensitive issues.
> Since
> Forrest is mostly a Cocoon distribution,
Now, but not necessarily.
> Forrest legal issues are Cocoon
> legal issues, and it would make sense for Forrest to be a Cocoon
> subproject.
That was our initial plan, and what I had proposed here, to the Xml PMC
and to Cocoon
The fact is that I got the sense from the Cocoon PMC (actually more than
a sense, as some mails were wuite explicit) that some Cocoon members
don't want Forrest under Cocoon.
With more thought, I have changed my mind and now agree with them that
we should be indipendent.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Jeff Turner wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 12:31:48PM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>>Some weeks ago, he Xml Project has proposed to the board a plan of
>>reorganization. It contemplated the possible spinoff of Forrest to
>>Cocoon, but preliminar discussions with Cocoon members have showed that
>>maybe another option would be better: going top level.
>>
>>This would create a forrest.apache.org Project, with it's own PMC and
>>voting guidelines. We can still decide to keep SVN open to Cocoon
>>committers as we do now, and keep on doing development like now, except
>>that we will have a PMC and report to the board, which is how Projects
>>in Apache were thought to function from the start.
>>
>>If we decide to try this route we shall vote for it and ask the XML PMC
>>and board for it.
>>
>>WDOT?
>
>
> AFAIK the main purpose of a PMC is sorting out legal cruft. Since
> Forrest is mostly a Cocoon distribution, Forrest legal issues are Cocoon
> legal issues, and it would make sense for Forrest to be a Cocoon
> subproject.
I would be against such a thing. I think that containment is bad and
that technological containment is worse. If forrest keeps using cocoon
it means that 90% of their legal issues will be solved by the cocoon
PMC. A silent PMC is the ideal PMC for the ASF.
Each solid and diverse enough community should have its own TLP. It's
like graduating, it's like moving out of the house. It makes parents
sad, but also proud ;-)
--
Stefano.
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Apr 27, 2004 at 12:31:48PM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Some weeks ago, he Xml Project has proposed to the board a plan of
> reorganization. It contemplated the possible spinoff of Forrest to
> Cocoon, but preliminar discussions with Cocoon members have showed that
> maybe another option would be better: going top level.
>
> This would create a forrest.apache.org Project, with it's own PMC and
> voting guidelines. We can still decide to keep SVN open to Cocoon
> committers as we do now, and keep on doing development like now, except
> that we will have a PMC and report to the board, which is how Projects
> in Apache were thought to function from the start.
>
> If we decide to try this route we shall vote for it and ask the XML PMC
> and board for it.
>
> WDOT?
AFAIK the main purpose of a PMC is sorting out legal cruft. Since
Forrest is mostly a Cocoon distribution, Forrest legal issues are Cocoon
legal issues, and it would make sense for Forrest to be a Cocoon
subproject.
--Jeff
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Some weeks ago, he Xml Project has proposed to the board a plan of
> reorganization. It contemplated the possible spinoff of Forrest to
> Cocoon, but preliminar discussions with Cocoon members have showed that
> maybe another option would be better: going top level.
>
> This would create a forrest.apache.org Project, with it's own PMC and
> voting guidelines. We can still decide to keep SVN open to Cocoon
> committers as we do now, and keep on doing development like now, except
> that we will have a PMC and report to the board, which is how Projects
> in Apache were thought to function from the start.
>
> If we decide to try this route we shall vote for it and ask the XML PMC
> and board for it.
>
> WDOT?
We have mostly governed ourselves anyway. Neither the Xml PMC
nor the Cocoon PMC seem to do much to assist us. I think that
all Apache projects should be top-level.
Yes, i reckon that we are robust enough to do it on our own.
--David
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
>
> > How would our PMC relate to Xml PMC? Does it need to, or is
> > the website association sufficient?
>
> Well, let's say that all XML projects go top-level... what happens to
> Xml.Apache? Maybe the general list and the Commons repository and
> community. What about keeping someone on the XML PMC and making it
> possible to have access to the Commons CVS?
Yes i think that it is important that Forrest committers
can access the xml-commons CVS and help out there.
--David
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>>David Crossley wrote:
>>
>>>Con
>>>---
>>>* Committees and paperwork. :-)
>>
>>Well, AFAIK the only paperwork the trimestral report for the board.
>
> The point was an attempted joke - note the smiley.
:-)
(I'm the smiley fanatic, don't you dare put in more smilies than me! Ha
ha ha ha :->) :-D
>>>Other
>>>-----
>>>* Would we still retain some affiliation with the Apache XML
>>>umbrella project?
>>
>>Why not? :-)
>
> ?
>
> I should have been more explicit. We definitely have affiliation.
> How? What would it be in real life? A link from their webpage?
> A complete "introduction" page at xml.apache.org and the rest
> at forrest.apache.org ... I suppose those are minor details.
My "why not?" was in fact not a question but more like "yeah, why not?"
like "I'm fine with it".
> How would our PMC relate to Xml PMC? Does it need to, or is
> the website association sufficient?
Well, let's say that all XML projects go top-level... what happens to
Xml.Apache? Maybe the general list and the Commons repository and
community. What about keeping someone on the XML PMC and making it
possible to have access to the Commons CVS?
> ... sorry, just thinking out loud and trying to determine how
> our PMC is composed and what its role is.
It's actually a good point.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Con
> > ---
> > * Committees and paperwork. :-)
>
> Well, AFAIK the only paperwork the trimestral report for the board.
The point was an attempted joke - note the smiley.
> > Other
> > -----
> > * Would we still retain some affiliation with the Apache XML
> > umbrella project?
>
> Why not? :-)
?
I should have been more explicit. We definitely have affiliation.
How? What would it be in real life? A link from their webpage?
A complete "introduction" page at xml.apache.org and the rest
at forrest.apache.org ... I suppose those are minor details.
How would our PMC relate to Xml PMC? Does it need to, or is
the website association sufficient?
... sorry, just thinking out loud and trying to determine how
our PMC is composed and what its role is.
--David
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Dave Brondsema wrote:
>
>>Quoting Nicola Ken Barozzi>
>>
>>>WDOT?
>>
>>What are the advantages & disadvantages?
>
> Well, let us all try to list them. Here are some ...
>
> Pro
> ---
> * Better visibility.
>
> * Stable and easily recognised URL forrest.apache.org
>
> * Forrest PMC attends to our own community, rather than via
> some other PMC .
>
> * Indicates that we are wider than just xml.
>
> Con
> ---
> * Committees and paperwork. :-)
Well, AFAIK the only paperwork the trimestral report for the board.
> * Need to spend some effort to define our own Charter and Guidelines.
> This could be turned into a Pro because it gives our community
> more guidance.
>
> * Need to prepare our own periodic reports to the Board.
> Anyway, we need to do that now via the Xml PMC.
>
> * Need to define the composition of the PMC. For example, at Cocoon
> the PMC is the subset of all committers who want to be there.
> A PMC can appear to the rest of the community to be a clique
> (a select group) because the discussions are not public. This is
> erroneous because the only things that are talked about are the
> nasty legal ramifications of certain included external software.
I would like to try and bring back the original notion of the PMC, where
all members are the one that care for the project in the long term, that
can have binding votes and that represent the project.
The use of "simple" committers would be similar to what we do now for
Cocoon committers: IOW they are invited to collaborate or fix bugs if
they want, but don't have binding votes. IT could be used, say, to give
access to the codebase to do some specific work on a part from someone
that is not so involved. He could become a mamber later on, but not
necessarily. This is what on the SVN project are called "partial
committers".
http://svn.collab.net/viewcvs/svn/trunk/HACKING?rev=9432&view=markup
http://svn.collab.net/viewcvs/svn/trunk/COMMITTERS?rev=9258&view=markup
http://svn.collab.net/viewcvs/svn/trunk/notes/contrib-committer.tmpl?rev=7089&view=markup
http://www.contactor.se/~dast/svn/archive-2003-09/1574.shtml
> Other
> -----
> * Would we still retain some affiliation with the Apache XML
> umbrella project?
Why not? :-)
> I tried to look around for a general definition of the Roles
> and Responsibilities of a PMC, but not much luck. Even these
> are not very helpful:
> http://incubator.apache.org/learn/glossary.html#PMC
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/roles.html#pmc
> Perhaps Nicola Ken can point to more.
>>My first concern is that it seems we only have a handful of active developers at
>>a time. Moving to a top-level project would probably give us more visibility
>>and could put too much pressure on us for features/fixes (especially during
>>times when we committers are busy with non-forrest things).
>
> Ah, an interesting point. More visibility brings more participants.
> On those occasions when the few committers cannot apply the
> contributions (patches or ideas) then those things remain undone.
> Perhaps one of those new participants will get itchy and start
> contributing patches and otherwise indicating their commitment
> to Forrest. We notice that and invite them to become committers.
+1
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Dave Brondsema wrote:
> Quoting Nicola Ken Barozzi>
> > WDOT?
>
> What are the advantages & disadvantages?
Well, let us all try to list them. Here are some ...
Pro
---
* Better visibility.
* Stable and easily recognised URL forrest.apache.org
* Forrest PMC attends to our own community, rather than via
some other PMC .
* Indicates that we are wider than just xml.
Con
---
* Committees and paperwork. :-)
* Need to spend some effort to define our own Charter and Guidelines.
This could be turned into a Pro because it gives our community
more guidance.
* Need to prepare our own periodic reports to the Board.
Anyway, we need to do that now via the Xml PMC.
* Need to define the composition of the PMC. For example, at Cocoon
the PMC is the subset of all committers who want to be there.
A PMC can appear to the rest of the community to be a clique
(a select group) because the discussions are not public. This is
erroneous because the only things that are talked about are the
nasty legal ramifications of certain included external software.
Other
-----
* Would we still retain some affiliation with the Apache XML
umbrella project?
I tried to look around for a general definition of the Roles
and Responsibilities of a PMC, but not much luck. Even these
are not very helpful:
http://incubator.apache.org/learn/glossary.html#PMC
http://www.apache.org/foundation/roles.html#pmc
Perhaps Nicola Ken can point to more.
> My first concern is that it seems we only have a handful of active developers at
> a time. Moving to a top-level project would probably give us more visibility
> and could put too much pressure on us for features/fixes (especially during
> times when we committers are busy with non-forrest things).
Ah, an interesting point. More visibility brings more participants.
On those occasions when the few committers cannot apply the
contributions (patches or ideas) then those things remain undone.
Perhaps one of those new participants will get itchy and start
contributing patches and otherwise indicating their commitment
to Forrest. We notice that and invite them to become committers.
--David
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Dave Brondsema <da...@brondsema.net>.
Quoting Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>:
>
> Some weeks ago, he Xml Project has proposed to the board a plan of
> reorganization. It contemplated the possible spinoff of Forrest to
> Cocoon, but preliminar discussions with Cocoon members have showed that
> maybe another option would be better: going top level.
>
> This would create a forrest.apache.org Project, with it's own PMC and
> voting guidelines. We can still decide to keep SVN open to Cocoon
> committers as we do now, and keep on doing development like now, except
> that we will have a PMC and report to the board, which is how Projects
> in Apache were thought to function from the start.
>
> If we decide to try this route we shall vote for it and ask the XML PMC
> and board for it.
>
> WDOT?
>
What are the advantages & disadvantages?
My first concern is that it seems we only have a handful of active developers at
a time. Moving to a top-level project would probably give us more visibility
and could put too much pressure on us for features/fixes (especially during
times when we committers are busy with non-forrest things).
--
Dave Brondsema : dave@brondsema.net
http://www.brondsema.net : personal
http://www.splike.com : programming
http://csx.calvin.edu : student org
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > By the way, with this type of vote, do we need to have a
> > majority of committers participate? Are there ASF guidelines
> > regarding the creation of a PMC.
>
> The board creates PMCs. Ours would only be a recommendation, so there
> are no rules. I think that having all active committers say +1 is best
> and possible, or at least have no -1.
That sounds like a good and easy approach.
> > In any case we probably need to ask the Cocoon committers
> > to vote, since they are a default part of our committer base.
>
> It's nore accademic than anything else. I would not include them in the
> vote, but I certainly would be happy if any Cocoon committer that has
> actually committed stuff in the Forrest SVN would like to join the
> Forrest PMC.
Okay. In that case they are Forrest committers anyway.
--David
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
>
>>Is there any more discussion before we vote on this?
>
> Considering that there is no rush, we should let this
> discussion run for a while before calling a vote, so that
> everyone gets a chance to air their concerns.
+1
> By the way, with this type of vote, do we need to have a
> majority of committers participate? Are there ASF guidelines
> regarding the creation of a PMC.
The board creates PMCs. Ours would only be a recommendation, so there
are no rules. I think that having all active committers say +1 is best
and possible, or at least have no -1.
> In any case we probably need to ask the Cocoon committers
> to vote, since they are a default part of our committer base.
It's nore accademic than anything else. I would not include them in the
vote, but I certainly would be happy if any Cocoon committer that has
actually committed stuff in the Forrest SVN would like to join the
Forrest PMC.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Dave Brondsema wrote:
> Quoting David Crossley :
> > Considering that there is no rush, we should let this
> > discussion run for a while before calling a vote, so that
> > everyone gets a chance to air their concerns.
> >
> > By the way, with this type of vote, do we need to have a
> > majority of committers participate? Are there ASF guidelines
> > regarding the creation of a PMC.
> >
> > In any case we probably need to ask the Cocoon committers
> > to vote, since they are a default part of our committer base.
>
> Could someone explain how/why/when Cocoon committers are Forrest committers?
2003-06-24
[VOTE] Give all Cocoon committers CVS access?
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=105645457400003
There is history too. Forrest was closely associated with Cocoon.
Not sure if that answers your question though.
--David
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Dave Brondsema <da...@brondsema.net>.
Quoting David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Is there any more discussion before we vote on this?
>
> Considering that there is no rush, we should let this
> discussion run for a while before calling a vote, so that
> everyone gets a chance to air their concerns.
>
> By the way, with this type of vote, do we need to have a
> majority of committers participate? Are there ASF guidelines
> regarding the creation of a PMC.
>
> In any case we probably need to ask the Cocoon committers
> to vote, since they are a default part of our committer base.
>
Could someone explain how/why/when Cocoon committers are Forrest committers?
--
Dave Brondsema : dave@brondsema.net
http://www.brondsema.net : personal
http://www.splike.com : programming
http://csx.calvin.edu : student org
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Is there any more discussion before we vote on this?
Considering that there is no rush, we should let this
discussion run for a while before calling a vote, so that
everyone gets a chance to air their concerns.
By the way, with this type of vote, do we need to have a
majority of committers participate? Are there ASF guidelines
regarding the creation of a PMC.
In any case we probably need to ask the Cocoon committers
to vote, since they are a default part of our committer base.
--David
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> > Some weeks ago, he Xml Project has proposed to the board a plan of
> > reorganization. It contemplated the possible spinoff of Forrest to
> > Cocoon, but preliminar discussions with Cocoon members have showed that
> > maybe another option would be better: going top level.
>
> Well we discussed the proposal quite a bit.
>
> DaveB asked what were the advantages and dis-advantages.
> I tried to list some. Are there any others?
>
> Some people had concerns that the Forrest committer base
> is not big enough to handle it. Other people tried to allay
> those fears.
>
> Is there any more discussion before we vote on this?
Mmmm, the discussion seemed to move to another thread.
For those trying to follow, see this and subsequent postings:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=108417537408361
--David
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Some weeks ago, he Xml Project has proposed to the board a plan of
> reorganization. It contemplated the possible spinoff of Forrest to
> Cocoon, but preliminar discussions with Cocoon members have showed that
> maybe another option would be better: going top level.
Well we discussed the proposal quite a bit.
DaveB asked what were the advantages and dis-advantages.
I tried to list some. Are there any others?
Some people had concerns that the Forrest committer base
is not big enough to handle it. Other people tried to allay
those fears.
Is there any more discussion before we vote on this?
--David
RE: [VOTE] Forrest to become top-level Apache project
Posted by "Brian S. Hayes" <br...@comcast.net>.
> > Vote whether you want the Forrest project to become
> > a top-level Apache project.
+1
Better late than never?
/Brian
Re: [VOTE] Forrest to become top-level Apache project
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
...
> Vote whether you want the Forrest project to become
> a top-level Apache project.
+1
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Recommend Forrest to become top-level Apache project
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Following up on the XML PMC restructuring proposal, and after
a brief discussion with the Cocoon PMC, the Forrest project
has decided to ask the Board to consider Apache Forrest to
become a top-level project.
Proposal discussion
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=108306208000001
VOTE: Forrest to become top-level Apache project
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=108504901500001
Five people voted in favour and no-one was opposed.
Election of PMC chairperson:
Mr. David Crossley
+1 nicolaken
+1 antonio
+1 brondsem
+1 crossley
+1 cheche
Mr. Nicola Ken Barozzi (has declined)
========================================================================
DRAFT RESOLUTION FOR THE FORREST PMC
========================================================================
WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests
of the Apache Software Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's
purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with the
creation and maintenance of open-source software for distribution at
no charge to the public, with the purpose of generation of aggregated
multi-channel documentation maintaining a separation of content and
presentation.
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management Committee,
to be known as the "Forrest PMC", be and hereby is established
pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the Forrest PMC be and hereby is responsible for the
creation and maintenance of software related to generation of
aggregated multi-channel documentation maintaining a separation of
content and presentation, based on software licensed to the
Foundation; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Forrest" be and hereby
is created, the person holding such office to serve at the direction
of the Board of Directors as the chair of the Forrest PMC, and to have
primary responsibility for management of the projects within the scope
of responsibility of the Forrest PMC; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and hereby are
appointed to serve as the initial members of the Forrest PMC:
* Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>
* Dave Brondsema <br...@apache.org>
* David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>
* Antonio Gallardo <an...@apache.org>
* Juan Jose Pablos <ch...@apache.org>
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Mr David Crossley
be and hereby is appointed to the office of Vice President, Forrest,
to serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until death,
resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or until a
successor is appointed; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the initial Forrest PMC be and hereby is tasked with
the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open development
and increased participation in the Forrest Project; and be it further
RESOLVED, that the initial Forrest PMC be and hereby is tasked with
the migration and rationalization of the XML PMC Forrest sub-project;
and be it further
RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to the XML Forrest
sub-project encumbered upon the XML PMC be hereafter discharged.
========================================================================
Re: [VOTE] Forrest to become top-level Apache project
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Five people voted in favour and no-one was opposed.
>
> So our next step is to ask the ASF Board for Forrest
> to become a top-level project.
Go ahead, send it to board@apache.org CC pmc@xml.apache.org and this
list, as tomorrow the board will have the meeting.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [VOTE] Forrest to become top-level Apache project
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Five people voted in favour and no-one was opposed.
So our next step is to ask the ASF Board for Forrest
to become a top-level project.
--David
Re: [VOTE] Forrest to become top-level Apache project
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
<snip/>
>
> Vote whether you want the Forrest project to become
> a top-level Apache project.
+1 from me.
--David
Re: [VOTE] Forrest to become top-level Apache project
Posted by Juan Jose Pablos <ch...@che-che.com>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Vote whether you want the Forrest project to become
> a top-level Apache project.
>
+1 from me
Re: [VOTE] Forrest to become top-level Apache project
Posted by Dave Brondsema <da...@brondsema.net>.
David Crossley wrote:
> We have discussed the proposal [1] for Forrest to become
> a top-level Apache project and seemed to have reached
> consensus.
>
> The current TLP-proposal document is at [2].
>
> [1]
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=108306208000001
> [2]
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/xml/forrest/trunk/TLP-proposal.txt?root=Apache-SVN
>
> Forrest committers please do three things:
>
> Add your name to [2] if you want to be on the PMC.
>
> Vote for a PMC chair by adding your name to [2].
> Propose other people if you want.
>
> Vote whether you want the Forrest project to become
> a top-level Apache project.
>
>
+1
--
Dave Brondsema : dave@brondsema.net
http://www.splike.com : programming
http://csx.calvin.edu : student org
http://www.brondsema.net : personal
[VOTE] Forrest to become top-level Apache project
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
We have discussed the proposal [1] for Forrest to become
a top-level Apache project and seemed to have reached
consensus.
The current TLP-proposal document is at [2].
[1]
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=108306208000001
[2]
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/xml/forrest/trunk/TLP-proposal.txt?root=Apache-SVN
Forrest committers please do three things:
Add your name to [2] if you want to be on the PMC.
Vote for a PMC chair by adding your name to [2].
Propose other people if you want.
Vote whether you want the Forrest project to become
a top-level Apache project.
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Dave Brondsema wrote:
> Quoting Nicola Ken Barozzi:
> >
> > What about this:
> >
> > "generation of aggregated multi-channel documentation, maintaining a
> > separation of content and presentation"
>
> That sounds fine by me. Except that "multi-channel" seems like a
> buzzword. "channel" isn't a term we really use around here.
> Is there another word that is more meaningful?
The Cocoon Features pages uses the term "multi-channel":
http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/features.html
..."Dynamic multi-channel web publishing"
I cannot yet think of any better terminology.
--David
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Dave Brondsema <da...@brondsema.net>.
Quoting Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>:
> 1 - Our Charter:
>
> ...creation and maintenance of open-source software related to:
>
> (I wrote) project documentation
> (Dave Brondsema wrote) generating collections of documents (with
> varied and flexible inputs and outputs), maintaining a
> separation of content from presentation
>
> We make docs, this seems clear. So our software is related to the
> *generation* of documentation.
> I also like the fact that we separate content from presentation, and
> have multiple input and out out formats.
>
> What about this:
>
> "generation of aggregated multi-channel documentation, maintaining a
> separation of content and presentation"
>
That sounds fine by me. Except that "multi-channel" seems like a
buzzword. "channel" isn't a term we really use around here. Is there another
word that is more meaningful?
--
Dave Brondsema : dave@brondsema.net
http://www.brondsema.net : personal
http://www.splike.com : programming
http://csx.calvin.edu : student org
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> 2 - Project Members:
>
> Some notable committers are missing from the proposed PMC members list.
> This puzzles me...
Yes it is strange, though it is not surprising because
they are not currently active here.
Maybe they simply missed the call to add themselves to
the list - some did express support at the beginning of
this thread. Perhaps they will participate when the Vote
happens.
Anyway, does it really matter. We do not expect all
committers to be there - only if they choose to.
--David
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
...
> maybe another option would be better: going top level.
>
> This would create a forrest.apache.org Project, with it's own PMC and
> voting guidelines.
...
Our proposal:
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/xml/forrest/trunk/TLP-proposal.txt?rev=10628&root=Apache-SVN&view=markup
IIUC nobody seems to be against it, and all currently active committers
have expressed the same preference for the chair and want to be on the PMC:
* Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>
* Dave Brondsema <br...@apache.org>
CH * David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>
* Antonio Gallardo <an...@apache.org>
* Juan Jose Pablos <ch...@apache.org>
The board meeting is next week, so since there seems to be consensus,
I'd like to ask for a VOTE now... only that we have still a couple of
issues before we do it:
1 - Our Charter:
...creation and maintenance of open-source software related to:
(I wrote) project documentation
(Dave Brondsema wrote) generating collections of documents (with
varied and flexible inputs and outputs), maintaining a
separation of content from presentation
We make docs, this seems clear. So our software is related to the
*generation* of documentation.
I also like the fact that we separate content from presentation, and
have multiple input and out out formats.
What about this:
"generation of aggregated multi-channel documentation, maintaining a
separation of content and presentation"
2 - Project Members:
Some notable committers are missing from the proposed PMC members list.
This puzzles me...
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Juan Jose Pablos wrote:
...
> Are we big enough?
I'm 84Kgs, and decreasing day by day ;-)
Seriously, I think we are (but, as anyone, I may be wrong).
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Proposal] Forrest graduation from Xml.Apache
Posted by Juan Jose Pablos <ch...@che-che.com>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi escribió:
>
> Some weeks ago, he Xml Project has proposed to the board a plan of
> reorganization. It contemplated the possible spinoff of Forrest to
> Cocoon, but preliminar discussions with Cocoon members have showed that
> maybe another option would be better: going top level.
>
> This would create a forrest.apache.org Project, with it's own PMC and
> voting guidelines. We can still decide to keep SVN open to Cocoon
> committers as we do now, and keep on doing development like now, except
> that we will have a PMC and report to the board, which is how Projects
> in Apache were thought to function from the start.
>
> If we decide to try this route we shall vote for it and ask the XML PMC
> and board for it.
>
> WDOT?
>
Are we big enough?