You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> on 2006/01/04 23:32:46 UTC
ajax proposal?
So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do with
the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and decision??
Sanjiva.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Marinschek <ma...@gmail.com>.
I'd be very happy to have a discussion on technical points as well.
regards,
Martin
On 1/16/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Martin Cooper wrote:
>
> > Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > > I don't believe that the ASF should be a place for "crowning"
> > > staid and mature projects. I would like to see continued
> > > innovation here, too.
>
> > I agree with you. Unfortunately, from what I've seen from looking
> > at Zimbra, it's more like the first generation way of doing DHTML
> > frameworks. I'd prefer not to have that become the de facto standard
>
> These are fair points, but as I've said in some other e-mails today, why are
> they fatal, rather than things that can be addressed during Incubation? Are
> you saying that the community is fatally flawed and cannot evolve? Isn't
> that a bit like saying that we should reject Struts because JSF is the
> newer, better way, and we don't believe that the Struts community can evolve
> outside their box?
>
> FWIW, if one of the Zimbra folks is out there reading these messages, I
> would like to see some sort of technical response to some of the concerns
> that have been raised regarding the current Zimbra approach, and where the
> overall AJAX technology appears to be evolving.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
http://www.irian.at
Your JSF powerhouse -
JSF Consulting, Development and
Courses in English and German
Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Martin Cooper wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > I don't believe that the ASF should be a place for "crowning"
> > staid and mature projects. I would like to see continued
> > innovation here, too.
> I agree with you. Unfortunately, from what I've seen from looking
> at Zimbra, it's more like the first generation way of doing DHTML
> frameworks. I'd prefer not to have that become the de facto standard
These are fair points, but as I've said in some other e-mails today, why are
they fatal, rather than things that can be addressed during Incubation? Are
you saying that the community is fatally flawed and cannot evolve? Isn't
that a bit like saying that we should reject Struts because JSF is the
newer, better way, and we don't believe that the Struts community can evolve
outside their box?
FWIW, if one of the Zimbra folks is out there reading these messages, I
would like to see some sort of technical response to some of the concerns
that have been raised regarding the current Zimbra approach, and where the
overall AJAX technology appears to be evolving.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 1/4/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
> Dan Diephouse wrote:
>
> > Martin Cooper wrote:
> > > Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX
> > > framework at this point in time. The area is relatively new
> > > and in a great deal of flux right now, and "crowning" one of
> > > them with the ASF brand will create a de facto standard instead
> > > of letting the market decide, whether we like it or not.
>
> > I am confused - why can't there be multiple ajax projects at somepoint?
>
> No reason. Martin expressed his personal view. Personally, I disagree
> with
> his view. I don't believe that the ASF should be a place for "crowning"
> staid and mature projects. I would like to see continued innovation here,
> too.
I agree with you. Unfortunately, from what I've seen from looking at Zimbra,
it's more like the first generation way of doing DHTML frameworks. I'd
prefer not to have that become the de facto standard, and have the ASF
innovate in the wide open playing field of the next generation frameworks
that are out there now. Yes - let's innovate!
AJAX is an interesting area, with potential impact for Portals, WS, MyFaces,
> and elsewhere. Last Fall, we had someone wanting to contribute a
> JavaScript
> version of LOG4J, and nowhere to go. An AJAX project would have provided
> a
> natural home.
It might have provided a sponsoring PMC, but it's not at all obvious that it
would have provided a natural home. Just because they're both written in
JavaScript doesn't mean they have any more in common than that. Jakarta for
JavaScript? ;-)
But yes, AJAX, or more generally, DHTML, is definitely an interesting area.
In addition to the projects you mention above, Struts, Tapestry, Cocoon and
Jakarta Commons are all working in this area (and all of those are looking
at, or already using, next-generation AJAX frameworks).
--
Martin Cooper
--- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 1/4/06, Dan Diephouse <da...@envoisolutions.com> wrote:
>
> Martin Cooper wrote:
> > On 1/4/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> >
> >> So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do with
> >> the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and decision??
> >>
> >
> >
> > I don't believe there is a sponsoring PMC at this point.
> >
> > Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX framework
> at
> > this point in time. The area is relatively new and in a great deal of
> flux
> > right now, and "crowning" one of them with the ASF brand will create a
> de
> > facto standard instead of letting the market decide, whether we like it
> or
> > not.
> >
> > I realise that the Incubator doesn't work that way, though, and that
> plenty
> > of people don't seem to care / mind that we'd create a (premature, IMHO)
> de
> > facto standard, but I can always hope. ;-)
> >
> I am confused - why can't there be multiple ajax projects at somepoint?
I don't recall saying there could not. What I am saying is that, were one to
come here now, it would rapidly become the de facto standard simply by
virtue of being here at the ASF. And once there is a de facto standard, many
people won't even bother to look elsewhere, or bother to evaluate its merits
or lack of them, because they've already got license, so to speak, to use
ASF software.
In fact, if we have to have Zimbra here, I would be right with you in hoping
something better turns up sooner rather than later. ;-)
--
Martin Cooper
As the perlers say, "there is more than one way to do things." See my
> note in a previous thread about multiple web app frameworks, etc, etc[1].
>
> - Dan
>
> 1.
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200512.mbox/%3c43A87503.6030907@envoisolutions.com%3e
>
> > --
> > Martin Cooper
> >
> >
> > Sanjiva.
> >
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Dan Diephouse
> Envoi Solutions LLC
> http://netzooid.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Dan Diephouse wrote:
> Martin Cooper wrote:
> > Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX
> > framework at this point in time. The area is relatively new
> > and in a great deal of flux right now, and "crowning" one of
> > them with the ASF brand will create a de facto standard instead
> > of letting the market decide, whether we like it or not.
> I am confused - why can't there be multiple ajax projects at somepoint?
No reason. Martin expressed his personal view. Personally, I disagree with
his view. I don't believe that the ASF should be a place for "crowning"
staid and mature projects. I would like to see continued innovation here,
too.
AJAX is an interesting area, with potential impact for Portals, WS, MyFaces,
and elsewhere. Last Fall, we had someone wanting to contribute a JavaScript
version of LOG4J, and nowhere to go. An AJAX project would have provided a
natural home.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Dan Diephouse <da...@envoisolutions.com>.
Martin Cooper wrote:
> On 1/4/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
>
>> So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do with
>> the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and decision??
>>
>
>
> I don't believe there is a sponsoring PMC at this point.
>
> Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX framework at
> this point in time. The area is relatively new and in a great deal of flux
> right now, and "crowning" one of them with the ASF brand will create a de
> facto standard instead of letting the market decide, whether we like it or
> not.
>
> I realise that the Incubator doesn't work that way, though, and that plenty
> of people don't seem to care / mind that we'd create a (premature, IMHO) de
> facto standard, but I can always hope. ;-)
>
I am confused - why can't there be multiple ajax projects at somepoint?
As the perlers say, "there is more than one way to do things." See my
note in a previous thread about multiple web app frameworks, etc, etc[1].
- Dan
1.
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200512.mbox/%3c43A87503.6030907@envoisolutions.com%3e
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> Sanjiva.
>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Dan Diephouse
Envoi Solutions LLC
http://netzooid.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
> On Jan 5, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
>
>> Martin Cooper wrote:
>>> On 1/4/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
>>>> So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do with
>>>> the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and decision??
>>> I don't believe there is a sponsoring PMC at this point.
>>
>> Once we have had a chance to digest all the input and finish dotting the
>> I's and crossing the T's from a legal perspective, Adam or I will come back
>> to ask for a vote.
>>
>>> Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX framework at
>>> this point in time. The area is relatively new and in a great deal of flux
>>> right now, and "crowning" one of them with the ASF brand will create a de
>>> facto standard instead of letting the market decide, whether we like it or
>>> not.
>>> I realise that the Incubator doesn't work that way, though, and that
>>> plenty
>>> of people don't seem to care / mind that we'd create a (premature, IMHO)
>>> de
>>> facto standard, but I can always hope. ;-)
>>
>> Sanjiva and I have experience with Apache SOAP. Two rewrites later, and
>> there is a thriving community working on Apache Axis2.
>>
>> The goal here is not to "crown" anything, but to provide the grain of sand
>> that will lead to the production of a pearl.
>>
>
> I am a big +1 on the ASF getting "involved" with AJAX.
Oh, I am too. I'd just prefer to start off on the right foot.
--
Martin Cooper
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Upayavira wrote:
> Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> > Hopefully before graduation we'll get a couple more AJAX projects
> > coming in and getting all married together or co-existing/competing
> > under the same TLP umbrella.
> And surely it doesn't make sense to have multiple (potentially
> competing) AJAX frameworks under the same TLP?
Agreed. If multiple AJAX related projects "got married", to use Sanjiva's turn of phrase, that would be fine. But competing projects under the same TLP would rarely make sense, since a TLP should be one community.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 14:36 -0500, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
>>On Jan 5, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
>>
>>>Sanjiva and I have experience with Apache SOAP. Two rewrites
>>>later, and there is a thriving community working on Apache Axis2.
>>>
>>>The goal here is not to "crown" anything, but to provide the grain
>>>of sand that will lead to the production of a pearl.
>
>
> +1; I don't see this as a crowning at all.
>
>
>>I am a big +1 on the ASF getting "involved" with AJAX.
>
>
> Me too.
>
> When the time's right, I'll be happy to help sponsor/mentor this project
> with the idea of heading for an AJAX TLP at some point. Hopefully before
> graduation we'll get a couple more AJAX projects coming in and getting
> all married together or co-existing/competing under the same TLP
> umbrella. Given we have dozens of Webapp frameworks for Java server
> side, I don't see how the world will end up with less than dozens of
> AJAX frameworks. First entrant to the new project will not be a
> guaranteed "winner" as there will be no single "winner."
And surely it doesn't make sense to have multiple (potentially
competing) AJAX frameworks under the same TLP? As an analogy, Cocoon and
Struts in the same TLP would strike me as somewhat odd.
Regards, Upayavira
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 14:36 -0500, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> On Jan 5, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
>>> Sanjiva and I have experience with Apache SOAP. Two rewrites
>>> later, and there is a thriving community working on Apache Axis2.
>>>
>>> The goal here is not to "crown" anything, but to provide the grain
>>> of sand that will lead to the production of a pearl.
>
> +1; I don't see this as a crowning at all.
Bringing something to the ASF immediately raises its profile in the world,
and many people look at that as a badge of merit, and will assume that
this must be the right way to do things.
--
Martin Cooper
>> I am a big +1 on the ASF getting "involved" with AJAX.
>
> Me too.
>
> When the time's right, I'll be happy to help sponsor/mentor this project
> with the idea of heading for an AJAX TLP at some point. Hopefully before
> graduation we'll get a couple more AJAX projects coming in and getting
> all married together or co-existing/competing under the same TLP
> umbrella. Given we have dozens of Webapp frameworks for Java server
> side, I don't see how the world will end up with less than dozens of
> AJAX frameworks. First entrant to the new project will not be a
> guaranteed "winner" as there will be no single "winner."
>
> Sanjiva.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 14:36 -0500, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> On Jan 5, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > Sanjiva and I have experience with Apache SOAP. Two rewrites
> > later, and there is a thriving community working on Apache Axis2.
> >
> > The goal here is not to "crown" anything, but to provide the grain
> > of sand that will lead to the production of a pearl.
+1; I don't see this as a crowning at all.
> I am a big +1 on the ASF getting "involved" with AJAX.
Me too.
When the time's right, I'll be happy to help sponsor/mentor this project
with the idea of heading for an AJAX TLP at some point. Hopefully before
graduation we'll get a couple more AJAX projects coming in and getting
all married together or co-existing/competing under the same TLP
umbrella. Given we have dozens of Webapp frameworks for Java server
side, I don't see how the world will end up with less than dozens of
AJAX frameworks. First entrant to the new project will not be a
guaranteed "winner" as there will be no single "winner."
Sanjiva.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Jan 5, 2006, at 1:38 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Martin Cooper wrote:
>> On 1/4/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
>>> So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do
>>> with
>>> the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and
>>> decision??
>> I don't believe there is a sponsoring PMC at this point.
>
> Once we have had a chance to digest all the input and finish
> dotting the I's and crossing the T's from a legal perspective, Adam
> or I will come back to ask for a vote.
>
>> Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX
>> framework at
>> this point in time. The area is relatively new and in a great deal
>> of flux
>> right now, and "crowning" one of them with the ASF brand will
>> create a de
>> facto standard instead of letting the market decide, whether we
>> like it or
>> not.
>> I realise that the Incubator doesn't work that way, though, and
>> that plenty
>> of people don't seem to care / mind that we'd create a (premature,
>> IMHO) de
>> facto standard, but I can always hope. ;-)
>
> Sanjiva and I have experience with Apache SOAP. Two rewrites
> later, and there is a thriving community working on Apache Axis2.
>
> The goal here is not to "crown" anything, but to provide the grain
> of sand that will lead to the production of a pearl.
>
I am a big +1 on the ASF getting "involved" with AJAX.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Martin Cooper wrote:
> On 1/4/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
>
>>So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do with
>>the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and decision??
>
> I don't believe there is a sponsoring PMC at this point.
Once we have had a chance to digest all the input and finish dotting the
I's and crossing the T's from a legal perspective, Adam or I will come
back to ask for a vote.
> Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX framework at
> this point in time. The area is relatively new and in a great deal of flux
> right now, and "crowning" one of them with the ASF brand will create a de
> facto standard instead of letting the market decide, whether we like it or
> not.
>
> I realise that the Incubator doesn't work that way, though, and that plenty
> of people don't seem to care / mind that we'd create a (premature, IMHO) de
> facto standard, but I can always hope. ;-)
Sanjiva and I have experience with Apache SOAP. Two rewrites later, and
there is a thriving community working on Apache Axis2.
The goal here is not to "crown" anything, but to provide the grain of
sand that will lead to the production of a pearl.
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Martin,
> Given that nobody else seems to share my views on the
> architecture
I think that many of us are still waiting for some details, other than the
namespace.
> or on the effect of the ASF brand on the AJAX world
So we should pre-select projects for Incubation based upon whether or not
the code, not the community, is best-of-breed and worthy of annointing?
You know, some projects used to say that the "incubating" label put them in
a potentially negativce light.
> given that the incubator appears to be a "just knock and you're in"
> project anyway
Not quite, but how high do you want the bar, and still expect people to feel
that they can bring projects here and try to innovate? And please note that
getting in is not the same as getting out.
Plus, if you want talk about projects worthy of annointing, or not, should
we next go through existing TLPs and expel some because their code sucks?
> I've assumed pretty much from the get-go that I'm fighting a lost
> cause here. But that doesn't mean I want to go quietly.
Fortitude, paired with a reasonable and rational nature, is a good thing.
Don't apologize for it.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 1/16/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
> Martin Cooper wrote:
>
> > whether I get involved with the Zimbra toolkit, and try to help them
> > see the light, I need to make a personal decision between putting my
> > energy into that, here at the ASF, or putting it into a non-ASF
> > project that is already on the right track. I know I don't have the
> > energy to do both. ;-)
>
> If you take your comment to a conclusion, you could be saying that if you
> don't have time to contribute here, the project should be rejected.
>
> Yes, I agree that I've reduced your comment to the absurd conclusion, and
> one which you most certainly did not intend.
Correct, I did not. The only reason I made that comment at all was because
it wasn't clear to me whether your earlier comment, encouraging me to
"contribute to fixing it", was in reference to the use of Prototype in
MyFaces or to a potential redesign of the Zimbra code, so I chose to address
both.
But what is a solution? You appear to be against trying to incubate the
> project because of its current architecture, others appear to want to try.
> Do we accept it because they want it give it a try, or reject it without
> trying because you don't have time to help fix it?
I'll take that as rhetorical. But I'd be curious to know how many of those
who have expressed an interest in incubating Zimbra, other than the Zimbra
folks themselves, are JavaScript developers planning on contributing to the
code base, versus people who just think having an AJAX project at the ASF
would be cool, and hope other people will do the (coding) work.
Clearly I'm a lone voice here, albeit making a fair amount of noise. Given
that nobody else seems to share my views on the architecture or on the
effect of the ASF brand on the AJAX world, and given that the incubator
appears to be a "just knock and you're in" project anyway, I've assumed
pretty much from the get-go that I'm fighting a lost cause here. But that
doesn't mean I want to go quietly.
--
Martin Cooper
I'll note that although I'm not familar with Zimbra, there is another
> proposed project for the Incubator that I am familar with, due to working
> with another project that uses it, and I seriously dislike it (I'd never
> use
> it). Yes, I'm being intentionally vague, because I don't want to
> prejudice
> it, and there are other people quite keen to incubate the project.
>
> FWIW, I would want to see your technical concerns addressed before
> graduation, but so far, we have had little if any discussion of what those
> tecnical issues really are, or so it seems from the archives.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 17 January 2006 14:27, Martin Cooper wrote:
> And the impact of giving a project the ASF brand. And the way the incubator
> operates as an open door to whoever knocks, with virtually no entry
> criteria.
This seems to be a recurring (growing?) concern among people 'inside' ASF.
Perhaps the membership+Board should discuss this matter and re-issue a
clearer directive to the Incubator.
Cheers
Niclas
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Martin Cooper wrote:
> the incubator operates as an open door to whoever knocks,
> with virtually no entry criteria.
The criteria is that another PMC votes or the Incubator PMC votes. In the
latter case, we should be looking to see interest from the Membership. In
numerous cases, I can think of proposals that came and went with no fanfare,
largely because no one was interested. When we DO see interest from ASF
Members, I have no problem with a discussion to educate them if one feels
that there are reasons to reconsider, but past that, isn't it just down to a
vote?
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 1/16/06, Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de> wrote:
>
> On 17.01.2006, at 00:02, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > Martin Cooper wrote:
> >
> >> whether I get involved with the Zimbra toolkit, and try to help them
> >> see the light, I need to make a personal decision between putting my
> >> energy into that, here at the ASF, or putting it into a non-ASF
> >> project that is already on the right track. I know I don't have the
> >> energy to do both. ;-)
> >
> > ...
> > FWIW, I would want to see your technical concerns addressed before
> > graduation, but so far, we have had little if any discussion of
> > what those
> > tecnical issues really are, or so it seems from the archives.
>
> <rant>Remember that it's about the community not the code... maybe
> you should add another bullet to the list at http://
> incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html to record this
> new criterion as another entry and/or exit requirement...</rant>
>
> Seriously, I don't understand why you are talking about code maturity
> here
I'm not talking about code maturity. You might want to re-read the threads.
- IMO this isn't and shouldn't be one of the incubators concerns
> - you are here to discuss legal stuff, community issues, mentors and
> the Apache Way, no?
And the impact of giving a project the ASF brand. And the way the incubator
operates as an open door to whoever knocks, with virtually no entry
criteria.
--
Martin Cooper
Cheers,
> Erik
>
>
>
>
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 17 January 2006 09:18, Erik Abele wrote:
> Seriously, I don't understand why you are talking about code maturity
> here - IMO this isn't and shouldn't be one of the incubators concerns
> - you are here to discuss legal stuff, community issues, mentors and
> the Apache Way, no?
Bingo!
Niclas
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 17 January 2006 18:00, Raphaël Luta wrote:
Since you placed this in a separate paragraph, I must comment of it
independently of the rest of your post;
> An established codebase is *much* more difficult to restructure
> than starting from scratch.
Not by default.
for FILE in `ls | grep -v \.svn` ; do svn rm $FILE ; done
svn commit -m "Heavy restructure started."
svn mkdir src/
and so on...
> Even if someone would be willing to
> contribute to this projet to help address major technical issues,
> it would require a huge amount of effort to effect a significant
> architectural change because of community inertia and backward
> compatibility requirements.
You're making a lot of assumptions with a statement like that. It may or may
not be true. Revolutions do happen, and sometimes they are good, often they
are not. The best revolutions happens with (time * evolution).
I agree with Sam. Although I am not particularily fond of the AJAX hype in
itself, and would be happy if the proposal is called something else like
Sambal, DryDock or Quintessen, a seeding codebase can barely be a bad thing
and if a set of good people want to try to grok the Apache Way and prepare to
subject to the Incubation process, then WHY NOT let them and whoever in ASF
to join in on the fun.
If Xyz have another "purportedly better" way of doing AJAX, then submit a
Incubation proposal, with or without seeding codebase and gather the
community to make it happen. As history have shown, ASF doesn't mind
competing (successfully!) with itself.
Cheers
Niclas
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Jan 19, 2006, at 12:18 AM, Raphaël Luta wrote:
> Le 19 janv. 06 à 03:03, Noel J. Bergman a écrit :
>> Raphaël Luta wrote:
>>
>>>> What specific concerns do you have with this community and this
>> codebase?
>>> - the mentor for this project is salaried by the project sponsor !
>>
>> To date, we have said that an ASF Member is an individual, not an
>> employeee.
>> Mind you, we're also discussing that a project SHOULD have
>> multiple Mentors.
>
> But do you really feel comfortable when the main point of oversight
> for the ASF in
> an incubated project is in the pay of the project sponsor and quite
> possibly
> internally reporting to one of the project committer ?
> The potential for conflict is huge and I would personnally hate to
> be in such
> an awkward position.
I am in that position for Jackrabbit. It hasn't been a problem for me,
but it was one of the reasons that I made sure we had several other
ASF members involved as well.
BTW, the "main point of oversight" is the PPMC as a whole, not the
chair.
It is relatively easy to see when that isn't happening. In any case,
that is why we call them incubating projects.
....Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On Jan 23, 2006, at 4:38 AM, Raphaël Luta wrote:
> XMLBeans had only 1 member/committer from the beginning but not
> affiliated
> with the sponsor.
Steven Noels and I were the ASF members involved with XMLBeans and
neither of us was employed by BEA. The initial list of committers
included 3 other people not employed by BEA, however one was unable
to participate due to his employer's issues with the CLAs. Original
proposal here: <http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-
general/200307.mbox/browser>
Ted
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Raphaël Luta <ra...@apache.org>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> Hi Raphael,
>
>
>>I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
>>when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
>>incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
>>Apache.
>
>
> If that's indeed the problem then we need to work on clearing up that
> misconception. That concern applies to all projects in the Incubator,
> not just this candidate.
>
It indeed applies to all incubating projects and IMO more acutely
for corporate code grants projects (as opposed to established OSS
projects that just move home like SpamAssassin did).
In code grant projects, little is known before incubation really
starts so trust is an important factor in these cases.
>
>>As long as this is true, accepting a project in the incubator even if
>>it stays there indefinitely *does* matter to me.
>>In the end, I don't think it's a personal prejudice but more a lack of
>>trust in the motivations of the proposal.
>
> That's a very strong statement .. let's please keep this conversation
> totally civil and respectful. This proposal is, after all, being
> strongly supported by Sam, who's not just a 2-bit member like me but
> rather a board member that you and I and other members elected to look
> after the best interests of the foundation. I've known Sam for many
> years and he's stubborn as a deaf mule and the last person who will give
> into pressure from his employer to do something that will harm the ASF.
> Sam has consistently been jumping into new stuff and really having
> dramatic impact quickly and intensely. I suspect he will do the same
> with this and I don't expect the other people around him will enjoy
> every minute of it. (I know I haven't for the stuff I've been around
> with him for ;-))
>
I didn't mean to be disrepectful to anyone and especially Sam. Please
accept me apologies if my words were considered rude. I believe Sam cares
deeply about the ASF and does what he thinks is right. We disagree about
what is right in this particular case (and then Roy, Noel and many others
agree with him so I'm definitely in a minority here).
That being said, I think I've pretty much listed all my reservations now.
Sam has made a good job of amending the proposal to include as many
concerns as possible short of postponing or dropping the proposal.
I don't think there's much left to discuss here.
--
Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
Hi Raphael,
> I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
> when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
> incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
> Apache.
If that's indeed the problem then we need to work on clearing up that
misconception. That concern applies to all projects in the Incubator,
not just this candidate.
I don't see it as reasonable to reject this proposal on that basis.
> As long as this is true, accepting a project in the incubator even if
> it stays there indefinitely *does* matter to me.
> In the end, I don't think it's a personal prejudice but more a lack of
> trust in the motivations of the proposal.
That's a very strong statement .. let's please keep this conversation
totally civil and respectful. This proposal is, after all, being
strongly supported by Sam, who's not just a 2-bit member like me but
rather a board member that you and I and other members elected to look
after the best interests of the foundation. I've known Sam for many
years and he's stubborn as a deaf mule and the last person who will give
into pressure from his employer to do something that will harm the ASF.
Sam has consistently been jumping into new stuff and really having
dramatic impact quickly and intensely. I suspect he will do the same
with this and I don't expect the other people around him will enjoy
every minute of it. (I know I haven't for the stuff I've been around
with him for ;-))
> I'm confused too by the voting process and repeated proposals even before
> the discussion has died down.
I think the new vote was called after the discussion settled (or we
jumped to another horse to beat on) but clearly things are in a confused
state now.
Sanjiva.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: public perceptions
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
David N. Welton wrote:
> [ changed subject to discuss topic more abstractly ]
>
> > I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
> > when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
> > incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
> > Apache.
>
> I think that the further away from something you get, the more vague
> your perceptions are. For instance, there are a lot of people who still
> think that Apache == The Web Server.
Well, i am not a marketing person, but i know
that you are onto something important there.
A while ago i started helping to tidy up
the top-level apache.org documentation
(i.e. / and /foundation/ and /dev/).
I became alarmed at how much documentation was
still talking in terms of "Apache, the webserver"
where really it should now mean "The ASF".
Obviously not updated for a long time.
Some of this has been addressed by referring
to "Apache HTTP Server" instead. However there
are plenty of extant misleading statements.
-David
> When seen from afar, I'd tend to
> agree that a move to "something.apache.org" is going to be noticed by
> most people who are not looking carefully as "project now associated
> with apache.org".
>
> This is a theory of mine that seems to be born out by talking with
> people, but it's not really an exact science. What say the marketing folks?
>
> --
> David N. Welton
> - http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
>
> Linux, Open Source Consulting
> - http://www.dedasys.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: public perceptions
Posted by susan wu <su...@arctic.org>.
I absolutely agree that if a project is housed at projectX.apache.org,
people will automatically associate projectX as an apache project, with
the full rights, privileges, and standing of all other apache projects,
from a marketing/branding perspective.
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, David N. Welton wrote:
> [ changed subject to discuss topic more abstractly ]
>
>> I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
>> when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
>> incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
>> Apache.
>
> I think that the further away from something you get, the more vague
> your perceptions are. For instance, there are a lot of people who still
> think that Apache == The Web Server. When seen from afar, I'd tend to
> agree that a move to "something.apache.org" is going to be noticed by
> most people who are not looking carefully as "project now associated
> with apache.org".
>
> This is a theory of mine that seems to be born out by talking with
> people, but it's not really an exact science. What say the marketing folks?
>
> --
> David N. Welton
> - http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
>
> Linux, Open Source Consulting
> - http://www.dedasys.com/
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: public perceptions
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> David N. Welton wrote:
No I didn't - the comment below was Raphael Luta's - probably evident
because of the double layer of quoting, but still...
>>>I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
>>>when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
>>>incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
>>>Apache.
> Actually, we've had quite a few comments from the public and incubator projects that dispute that view, especially in light of the disclaimers required to be conspicuously posted.
> Let's not conflate the issues with the Apache != Apache Web Server discussion.
They're both, to some degree, issues of looking at Apache from 10
kilometers in the sky, or looking at it very infrequently. Which
describes most people pretty well because they are busy with their own
work, lives, projects, etc.
Those who are close enough to comment know about the project well enough
to distinguish between different subgroups. They're observing from a
lot closer.
It's probable that the second group are the ones that matter, and if
they can see a difference, then there isn't really a problem. It's just
something to keep in mind.
--
David N. Welton
- http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Linux, Open Source Consulting
- http://www.dedasys.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: public perceptions
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
David N. Welton wrote:
> > I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
> > when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
> > incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
> > Apache.
Actually, we've had quite a few comments from the public and incubator projects that dispute that view, especially in light of the disclaimers required to be conspicuously posted.
Let's not conflate the issues with the Apache != Apache Web Server discussion.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
public perceptions
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
[ changed subject to discuss topic more abstractly ]
> I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
> when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
> incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
> Apache.
I think that the further away from something you get, the more vague
your perceptions are. For instance, there are a lot of people who still
think that Apache == The Web Server. When seen from afar, I'd tend to
agree that a move to "something.apache.org" is going to be noticed by
most people who are not looking carefully as "project now associated
with apache.org".
This is a theory of mine that seems to be born out by talking with
people, but it's not really an exact science. What say the marketing folks?
--
David N. Welton
- http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Linux, Open Source Consulting
- http://www.dedasys.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Raphaël Luta <ra...@apache.org>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-01-23 at 13:38 +0100, Raphaël Luta wrote:
>
>>Seeing Zimbra current OSS efforts with this toolkit (even with an ASF member
>>in their team), I have a hard time believing this proposal is anything but a
>>branding exercise to help this toolkit stand out in the crowd of Ajax toolkits.
>>
>>My "admission bar" for such proposals is set much higher than usual.
>
> With all due respect Raphael, I find this unreasonable. You can't make
> random "admission bars" for projects based on personal prejudices. What
> I suggest is that you join the project as a mentor and make sure push
> them hard to make sure they come out clean as whistle or hold them in
> incubation until its killed. That way you convince yourself that the
> project is good *from the ASF points of view* (community, meritocracy
> etc.) but not from things like visibility point of view which by no
> means are a requirement.
>
I would agree with this if there was no immediate percieved benefit
when you are in Incubator, unfortunately it seems projects under
incubation are still perceived by the larger community as endorsed by
Apache.
As long as this is true, accepting a project in the incubator even if
it stays there indefinitely *does* matter to me.
In the end, I don't think it's a personal prejudice but more a lack of
trust in the motivations of the proposal.
> What's the status of the vote? I'm confused by calls to repeal the vote
> and modifications to the vote and all that. I thought we were spsed to
> be a simple bunch of, um, people but it sure doesn't look like it! ;-)
>
I'm confused too by the voting process and repeated proposals even before
the discussion has died down.
> Am I spsed to vote my choice at this time or is there no vote going on?
> So confused. Must be the freezing weather in Sri Lanka these days. Its
> been like 65F in Colombo at nite. Brrrrrr.
>
27F here in Paris, It sure wakes you up in the morning :)
--
Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
>
> What's the status of the vote? I'm confused by calls to repeal the vote
> and modifications to the vote and all that. I thought we were spsed to
> be a simple bunch of, um, people but it sure doesn't look like it! ;-)
Overview of what occurred:
1) on 12/20, Adam Peller posted a proposal for comments (not a vote!).
The most significant comments related to the inclusion of Eclipse
components, and the perception of this being an umbrella.
2) on 1/15, I posted a signficantly reduced proposal for a vote.
Missing from that proposal is any Eclipse componentry. Justin asked for
a clarification regarding server components, and there were numereous
requests for a new name. Some questions were raised as to whether a
Zimbra employee could make an adequate mentor. On 1/19, Leo and Geir
asked for a new vote.
3) on 1/23, I posted a new vote on a proposal now named Kabuki. Here
are links to the current proposal, to the set of changes, and to the
start of the current vote thread:
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/KabukiProposal
http://tinyurl.com/e3egs
http://tinyurl.com/7emr5
> Am I spsed to vote my choice at this time or is there no vote going on?
Yes there is a vote going on. Please do vote.
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Mon, 2006-01-23 at 13:38 +0100, Raphaël Luta wrote:
>
> Seeing Zimbra current OSS efforts with this toolkit (even with an ASF member
> in their team), I have a hard time believing this proposal is anything but a
> branding exercise to help this toolkit stand out in the crowd of Ajax toolkits.
>
> My "admission bar" for such proposals is set much higher than usual.
With all due respect Raphael, I find this unreasonable. You can't make
random "admission bars" for projects based on personal prejudices. What
I suggest is that you join the project as a mentor and make sure push
them hard to make sure they come out clean as whistle or hold them in
incubation until its killed. That way you convince yourself that the
project is good *from the ASF points of view* (community, meritocracy
etc.) but not from things like visibility point of view which by no
means are a requirement.
What's the status of the vote? I'm confused by calls to repeal the vote
and modifications to the vote and all that. I thought we were spsed to
be a simple bunch of, um, people but it sure doesn't look like it! ;-)
Am I spsed to vote my choice at this time or is there no vote going on?
So confused. Must be the freezing weather in Sri Lanka these days. Its
been like 65F in Colombo at nite. Brrrrrr.
Sanjiva.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Raphaël Luta <ra...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Raphaël Luta wrote:
>
>
>>Do we have other incubating projects following the Kabuki pattern, ie
>>all initial committers from a single company with the mentor salaried
>>by the same company ? I'd sure like to know how these evolved if
>>we have any.
>
>
> Hmm ... I'd have to check, but XMLBeans, Beehive and Derby? Certainly
> Derby, which was brought in by IBM and Mentored by Ken and Sam.
>
Interesting.
Derby had 3 mentors so they would pass the 3 members check although they
are all tied to the sponsor.
Beehive seems to have had 2 members from the get go (dims and craig) none
of them associated with the sponsor.
XMLBeans had only 1 member/committer from the beginning but not affiliated
with the sponsor.
>
>>As far as i know, it has never been reviewed on the mailing-list
>>probably because it didn't show up on the radar.
>
>
> So should we take the lack of use as a critique against anything other than
> visibility?
>
No but should the ASF provide instant visibility to any framework
without having the sponsor to work at least a little on the community
before coming to the ASF ?
Isn't AjaxTk already open-sourced ?
If you want to try something, go on sf.net, freshmeat, etc... and try
*finding* AjaxTk. It sure helps understand why it's not on anybody's radar.
Seeing Zimbra current OSS efforts with this toolkit (even with an ASF member
in their team), I have a hard time believing this proposal is anything but a
branding exercise to help this toolkit stand out in the crowd of Ajax toolkits.
My "admission bar" for such proposals is set much higher than usual.
--
Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Raphaël Luta wrote:
> Do we have other incubating projects following the Kabuki pattern, ie
> all initial committers from a single company with the mentor salaried
> by the same company ? I'd sure like to know how these evolved if
> we have any.
Hmm ... I'd have to check, but XMLBeans, Beehive and Derby? Certainly
Derby, which was brought in by IBM and Mentored by Ken and Sam.
> I'm glad Martin has been added as a commmitter to Kabuli but I would
> feel much better about it if other existing memebrs/committers willing
> to work on that project would join.
So would I, but community building often takes time.
> As far as i know, it has never been reviewed on the mailing-list
> probably because it didn't show up on the radar.
So should we take the lack of use as a critique against anything other than
visibility?
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Raphaël Luta <ra...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Raphaël Luta wrote:
>
>
>>do you really feel comfortable when the main point of oversight
>>for the ASF in an incubated project is in the pay of the project
>>sponsor and quite possibly internally reporting to one of the
>>project committer ? The potential for conflict is huge and I
>>would personnally hate to be in such an awkward position.
>
>
> I can think of examples supporting your view, but most probably support
> Roy's. By trying to get at least 3 ASF Members as active Mentors, perhaps
> we can better address the concern.
>
Do we have other incubating projects following the Kabuki pattern, ie
all initial committers from a single company with the mentor salaried
by the same company ? I'd sure like to know how these evolved if
we have any.
I'm glad Martin has been added as a commmitter to Kabuli but I would
feel much better about it if other existing memebrs/committers willing
to work on that project would join.
>
>>others from Portals may wish to give it a try but I somehow
>>doubt it given that the toolkit didn't even show up in the
>>short list when we first investigated the field for our
>>AJAX support.
>
>
> Was it reviewed? Or just didn't show up on the radar?
>
As far as i know, it has never been reviewed on the mailing-list
probably because it didn't show up on the radar.
--
Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Raphaël Luta wrote:
> do you really feel comfortable when the main point of oversight
> for the ASF in an incubated project is in the pay of the project
> sponsor and quite possibly internally reporting to one of the
> project committer ? The potential for conflict is huge and I
> would personnally hate to be in such an awkward position.
I can think of examples supporting your view, but most probably support
Roy's. By trying to get at least 3 ASF Members as active Mentors, perhaps
we can better address the concern.
> others from Portals may wish to give it a try but I somehow
> doubt it given that the toolkit didn't even show up in the
> short list when we first investigated the field for our
> AJAX support.
Was it reviewed? Or just didn't show up on the radar?
> I don't see why incubating it would change in any way its fitness
> for our purpose.
What makes you say that it isn't fit for the purpose?
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Raphaël Luta <ra...@aptiwan.com>.
Le 19 janv. 06 à 03:03, Noel J. Bergman a écrit :
> Raphaël Luta wrote:
>
>>> What specific concerns do you have with this community and this
> codebase?
>> - the mentor for this project is salaried by the project sponsor !
>
> To date, we have said that an ASF Member is an individual, not an
> employeee.
> Mind you, we're also discussing that a project SHOULD have multiple
> Mentors.
>
But do you really feel comfortable when the main point of oversight
for the ASF in
an incubated project is in the pay of the project sponsor and quite
possibly
internally reporting to one of the project committer ?
The potential for conflict is huge and I would personnally hate to be
in such
an awkward position.
>> - I can trace no public attempt to meet other possible user apache
>> communities (myfaces, portals, cocoon, etc...) even after first
>> proposal rejection
>
> I see interaction with MyFaces, and one of them already added as a
> Committer. You are here. Is Portal going to give it a whirl?
>
I personally will not, others from Portals may wish to give it a try but
I somehow doubt it given that the toolkit didn't even show up in the
short list when we first investigated the field for our AJAX support.
I don't see why incubating it would change in any way its fitness
for our purpose.
(a quick google search shows that this is true for all existing
ASF projects. Dojo, DWR, Prototype, Rico have all generated some
traffic, Zimbra never)
--
Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org
Apache Jetspeed - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Raphaël Luta wrote:
> > What specific concerns do you have with this community and this
codebase?
> - the mentor for this project is salaried by the project sponsor !
To date, we have said that an ASF Member is an individual, not an employeee.
Mind you, we're also discussing that a project SHOULD have multiple Mentors.
> - I can trace no public attempt to meet other possible user apache
> communities (myfaces, portals, cocoon, etc...) even after first
> proposal rejection
I see interaction with MyFaces, and one of them already added as a
Committer. You are here. Is Portal going to give it a whirl?
> - I see negative technical feedback on the proposal from ASF
> people I trust left unanswered
Actually, everyone is waiting for Martin to provide technical details, and
there *have* been answers to those few that people could parse out.
> - some ties with a possible "downstream" community, possibly
> adding some of their committers in the initial committer pool
A MyFaces Committer was already added to the list. How about you for
Portal? If not you, who?
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Raphaël Luta <ra...@apache.org>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> Raphaël Luta wrote:
>> Erik Abele wrote:
>>
>>> It's just the initial code, nothing more :)
>>
>> I don't agree with this statement.
>> The code itself is indeed only the initial codebase but along with
>> this codebase come an established group of committers with an
>> interest in keeping their current architecture or at least backward
>> compatibility
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> I think my point is simply that in a code grant incubation
>> scenario, initial codebase and initial community *do* matter
>> because they'll act as natural forces towards stability and
>> are likely to shape the community and codebase for a long time.
>
> Hopefully, at some point, these somewhat abstract discussion of concerns
> that are relevant to all proposals will solidify into concrete concerns
> regarding this specific proposal.
>
I was simply in disagreement with Erik statement that initial code is
not that important. It's tangential to the actual zimbra proposal.
> Is code irrelevant? That would be absurd. That's why the code has been
> made available for all to download, inspect and comment on.
>
> I think a more neutral restatement of what Eric and Noel are trying to
> say is that while good communities always overcome bad code, no amount
> of good code can make up for a bad community.
>
While I more or less agree with this statement, I think that bad code can
prevent a good community from happening in the first place, especially
when good communities exist elsewhere.
<Disclaimer>I've not reviewed the code so that statement above does not
reflect any quality judgement on the proposed zimbra toolkit</Disclaimer>
> On the other had, Raphaël, I see you making implicit assumptions that
> the committers will have entrenched interests that will be difficult to
> overcome, and that the existing community is "mature". What evidence do
> you have of that? I'm sure that you can give examples of other
> communities where that was a problem, and I can give examples of other
> communities where that was NOT a problem. What do either examples
> prove? Nothing.
>
> What specific concerns do you have with this community and this codebase?
>
If we're talking explicitly about the Zimbra proposal, here's my current
understanding of the proposal :
Of the 4 "Criteria" listed in the proposal, only 1 is met by the proposal:
Alignment to ASF
All 3 others are filled with boilerplate statements that indicate:
- the project does not use at all a meritocratic model right now
- there's no community
- the core developers are strongly bound to a single entity with only Andy
being easily traced to prior open source activity
Of the 6 warning signs listed:
- 1 is defintitely not met: the Zimbra toolkit is not an orphaned product
- 1 is possibly met: Inexperience with open-source, again 30 minutes of
Googling for the zimbra team show little oss credentials
- 1 is probably met: fascination with Apache brand, but I'll admit it's a
personal interpretation
- 3 are definitively met:
- reliance on salaried developers
- homogenous developers (I'll admit that IMO if the 2 are often linked)
- no ties to other apache products
Additional personal expectations:
- the Zimbra collaboration suite uses the AjaxTk so there will be some
backward compatibility burden attached to the codebase.
- if incubation is accepted, I expect a lot of PR noise around it due to
hype surrounding AJAX and aggressive communication profile of Zimbra
Positive signs:
- the updated proposal has attempted to fix some of the issues raised after
the first proposal that could be fixed (scope, number of initial committers)
Negative signs:
- the mentor for this project is salaried by the project sponsor !
- I can trace no public attempt to meet other possible user apache
communities (myfaces, portals, cocoon, etc...) even after first proposal
rejection
- I see negative technical feedback on the proposal from ASF people I trust
left unanswered
When you put all this together, you can understand I'm hardly enthusiastic
about this proposal.
What would change my opinion ?
2 must have:
- no PR before graduation
- an independant mentor
1 nice to have:
- some ties with a possible "downstream" community, possibly adding some
of their committers in the initial committer pool
--
Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Raphaël Luta wrote:
> Erik Abele wrote:
>
>>Oh, of course - but for now there's no community yet so he is
>>complaining into the blue sky :)
>>
>>I'd certainly like to see a response to the concerns raised by Martin
>>but OTOH I don't think that it should evolve into a discussion about
>>basic architectural principles or even impact the final consideration
>>of incubation.
>>
>>It's just the initial code, nothing more :)
>
> I don't agree with this statement.
> The code itself is indeed only the initial codebase but along with
> this codebase come an established group of committers with an
> interest in keeping their current architecture or at least backward compatibility
>
> An established codebase is *much* more difficult to restructure
> than starting from scratch. Even if someone would be willing to
> contribute to this projet to help address major technical issues,
> it would require a huge amount of effort to effect a significant
> architectural change because of community inertia and backward
> compatibility requirements.
>
>>>From what I've seen at Apache, major rearchitecture work always
> happen as a "revolution" with an entirely new implementation
> being built and these "revolutions" are dangerous to a
> project communiy health.
> Given the frictions created by "revolutions", it's important
> that these do not happen before the community is mature else
> they may simply split it.
>
> I think my point is simply that in a code grant incubation
> scenario, initial codebase and initial community *do* matter
> because they'll act as natural forces towards stability and
> are likely to shape the community and codebase for a long time.
Hopefully, at some point, these somewhat abstract discussion of concerns
that are relevant to all proposals will solidify into concrete concerns
regarding this specific proposal.
Is code irrelevant? That would be absurd. That's why the code has been
made available for all to download, inspect and comment on.
I think a more neutral restatement of what Eric and Noel are trying to
say is that while good communities always overcome bad code, no amount
of good code can make up for a bad community.
On the other had, Raphaël, I see you making implicit assumptions that
the committers will have entrenched interests that will be difficult to
overcome, and that the existing community is "mature". What evidence do
you have of that? I'm sure that you can give examples of other
communities where that was a problem, and I can give examples of other
communities where that was NOT a problem. What do either examples
prove? Nothing.
What specific concerns do you have with this community and this codebase?
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Raphaël Luta <ra...@apache.org>.
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Jan 19, 2006, at 12:36 AM, Raphaël Luta wrote:
>
>> We're doing loops here. My point in this thread is that initial code
>> quality does matter in a code grant incubation because it is often
>> burdened by backward compatibility with existing applications and
>> thus major restructure may require a revolution which can hardly
>> safely happen in the early months of the project open-source life.
>
>
> And all those points are wrong. There is no burden of backward
> compatibility because it must be an entirely new product -- all
> of the names change anyway. A major restructure is a good idea;
> that is, after all, why we founded Apache as a project to replace
> NCSA httpd 1.3R, which was replaced by Shambhala within 6 months.
> And it certainly doesn't have to happen "safely" -- the project is
> going to be shooting for TLP status, which means about a year or more
> under incubation before it can even do real releases, and the more
> hard decisions the group has to make (in public), the better they
> will learn how to collaborate.
>
I fail to see how you can apply the httpd situation (standalone server,
initial community with independant contributors, most downstream users
relying on standard http/cgi) to the current proposal (development
toolkit/"framework", community with hierarhical relationships and
downstream users code-dependant on toolkit).
You take the optimistic view that the community would work as expected;
I have a pessimistic view that it will not without some cost to the ASF
if at all.
> Honestly, once the name is changed to something neutral like Kabuki,
> none of your objections make any sense. Especially the ones about
> code quality, since most of our projects started with code that
> needed a serious re-arch almost immediately. I would love to see
> three or four different ajax toolkits under the ASF, each with
> its own architectural focus, and let them compete for developers,
> but we can only approve one podling at a time.
>
+1 I just wish they would join with a least a nucleus of public
community.
> Meanwhile, I do think that any proposal to the Incubator needs at
> least three active Apache committers involved, preferably members
> that are willing to do infrastructure tasks. Incubator podlings
> are seriously infrastructure dependent and the existing volunteers
> are already tapped-out.
>
+1
--
Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Jan 19, 2006, at 12:36 AM, Raphaël Luta wrote:
> We're doing loops here. My point in this thread is that initial code
> quality does matter in a code grant incubation because it is often
> burdened by backward compatibility with existing applications and
> thus major restructure may require a revolution which can hardly
> safely happen in the early months of the project open-source life.
And all those points are wrong. There is no burden of backward
compatibility because it must be an entirely new product -- all
of the names change anyway. A major restructure is a good idea;
that is, after all, why we founded Apache as a project to replace
NCSA httpd 1.3R, which was replaced by Shambhala within 6 months.
And it certainly doesn't have to happen "safely" -- the project is
going to be shooting for TLP status, which means about a year or more
under incubation before it can even do real releases, and the more
hard decisions the group has to make (in public), the better they
will learn how to collaborate.
Honestly, once the name is changed to something neutral like Kabuki,
none of your objections make any sense. Especially the ones about
code quality, since most of our projects started with code that
needed a serious re-arch almost immediately. I would love to see
three or four different ajax toolkits under the ASF, each with
its own architectural focus, and let them compete for developers,
but we can only approve one podling at a time.
Meanwhile, I do think that any proposal to the Incubator needs at
least three active Apache committers involved, preferably members
that are willing to do infrastructure tasks. Incubator podlings
are seriously infrastructure dependent and the existing volunteers
are already tapped-out.
....Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Raphaël Luta <ra...@aptiwan.com>.
Le 19 janv. 06 à 02:57, Noel J. Bergman a écrit :
> Raphaël Luta wrote:
>
>> I thought it would be safe to assume that Zimbra collaboration suite
>> uses the AjaxTk. If it doesn't then I'm even more worried about that
>> codebase ;)
>
> Why?
>
Because then I would have to reconsider the "orphaned product" statement
of the proposal. Anyway, as far as I can tell froom looking at Zimbra
collaborative suite, it does depend on the ajaxTk.
>>>> An established codebase is *much* more difficult to restructure
>>>> than starting from scratch.
>>> Apache SOAP -> Apache Axis
>>> Tomcat 3 -> Tomcat 4 -> Tomcat 5 -> Tomcat 5.5 ...
>>> Jetspeed 1 -> Jetspeed 2 ;-)
>
>> My point exactly !
>
>> Most of these transitions have not been a smooth ride even though
>> they are successful: it takes time and a resilient community to
>> manage these.
>
> No one said that doing it was necessarily easy, but isn't creating
> resilient, healthy, communities a major part of our purpose?
>
We're doing loops here. My point in this thread is that initial code
quality does matter in a code grant incubation because it is often
burdened by backward compatibility with existing applications and
thus major restructure may require a revolution which can hardly
safely happen in the early months of the project open-source life.
--
Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org
Apache Jetspeed - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Raphaël Luta wrote:
> I thought it would be safe to assume that Zimbra collaboration suite
> uses the AjaxTk. If it doesn't then I'm even more worried about that
> codebase ;)
Why?
>>>An established codebase is *much* more difficult to restructure
>>>than starting from scratch.
>> Apache SOAP -> Apache Axis
>> Tomcat 3 -> Tomcat 4 -> Tomcat 5 -> Tomcat 5.5 ...
>> Jetspeed 1 -> Jetspeed 2 ;-)
> My point exactly !
> Most of these transitions have not been a smooth ride even though
> they are successful: it takes time and a resilient community to
> manage these.
No one said that doing it was necessarily easy, but isn't creating
resilient, healthy, communities a major part of our purpose?
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Raphaël Luta <ra...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Raphaël Luta wrote:
>
>>along with [a] codebase come an established group of committers
>>with an interest in keeping their current architecture or at
>>least backward compatibility
>
> That carries a fairly large assumption, and really should be posed as a
> question, not an answer.
>
I thought it would be safe to assume that Zimbra collaboration suite
uses the AjaxTk. If it doesn't then I'm even more worried about that
codebase ;)
>>An established codebase is *much* more difficult to restructure
>>than starting from scratch.
>
> Apache SOAP -> Apache Axis
> Tomcat 3 -> Tomcat 4 -> Tomcat 5 -> Tomcat 5.5 ...
> Jetspeed 1 -> Jetspeed 2 ;-)
>
My point exactly ! (and you could add httpd 1.x -> httpd 2.x)
Most of these transitions have not been a smooth ride even though
they are successful: it takes time and a resilient community to
manage these.
--
Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Raphaël Luta wrote:
> along with [a] codebase come an established group of committers
> with an interest in keeping their current architecture or at
> least backward compatibility
That carries a fairly large assumption, and really should be posed as a
question, not an answer.
> An established codebase is *much* more difficult to restructure
> than starting from scratch.
Apache SOAP -> Apache Axis
Tomcat 3 -> Tomcat 4 -> Tomcat 5 -> Tomcat 5.5 ...
Jetspeed 1 -> Jetspeed 2 ;-)
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Raphaël Luta <ra...@apache.org>.
Erik Abele wrote:
>
> Oh, of course - but for now there's no community yet so he is
> complaining into the blue sky :)
>
> I'd certainly like to see a response to the concerns raised by Martin
> but OTOH I don't think that it should evolve into a discussion about
> basic architectural principles or even impact the final consideration
> of incubation.
>
> It's just the initial code, nothing more :)
>
I don't agree with this statement.
The code itself is indeed only the initial codebase but along with
this codebase come an established group of committers with an
interest in keeping their current architecture or at least backward compatibility
An established codebase is *much* more difficult to restructure
than starting from scratch. Even if someone would be willing to
contribute to this projet to help address major technical issues,
it would require a huge amount of effort to effect a significant
architectural change because of community inertia and backward
compatibility requirements.
>From what I've seen at Apache, major rearchitecture work always
happen as a "revolution" with an entirely new implementation
being built and these "revolutions" are dangerous to a
project communiy health.
Given the frictions created by "revolutions", it's important
that these do not happen before the community is mature else
they may simply split it.
I think my point is simply that in a code grant incubation
scenario, initial codebase and initial community *do* matter
because they'll act as natural forces towards stability and
are likely to shape the community and codebase for a long time.
Just my 2 eurocents,
--
Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org
Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java
http://portals.apache.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 17.01.2006, at 03:04, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Erik Abele wrote:
>
>> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>> FWIW, I would want to see your technical concerns addressed before
>>> graduation, but so far, we have had little if any discussion of
>>> what those tecnical issues really are, or so it seems from the
>>> archives.
>
>> Remember that it's about the community not the code... maybe
>> you should add another bullet to [Incubation_Policy.html] to
>> record this new criterion as another entry and/or exit requirement
>
> New criteria? I agree with you that it is about community not
> code, but
> that is because we believe that a good community fixes its code.
> So if
> someone has strong technical objections to something, and the
> community is
> not responsive to them, don't you think that represents a problem?
> For
> exit, not for entry.
Oh, of course - but for now there's no community yet so he is
complaining into the blue sky :)
I'd certainly like to see a response to the concerns raised by Martin
but OTOH I don't think that it should evolve into a discussion about
basic architectural principles or even impact the final consideration
of incubation.
It's just the initial code, nothing more :)
(OK, OK - don't make me think about the IBM PR mentioning the _multi-
million_ dollar investment for developing the derby donation.)
>> I don't understand why you are talking about code maturity
>
> If you mean me specifically, you might want to re-read the context
> of what
> I wrote. :-)
Sorry, I think my mail was a bit unclear: I was primarily responding
to Martin but I see now why you did mis-interpret my intentions...
it's late over here :)
Cheers,
Erik
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Erik Abele wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > FWIW, I would want to see your technical concerns addressed before
> > graduation, but so far, we have had little if any discussion of
> > what those tecnical issues really are, or so it seems from the
> > archives.
> Remember that it's about the community not the code... maybe
> you should add another bullet to [Incubation_Policy.html] to
> record this new criterion as another entry and/or exit requirement
New criteria? I agree with you that it is about community not code, but
that is because we believe that a good community fixes its code. So if
someone has strong technical objections to something, and the community is
not responsive to them, don't you think that represents a problem? For
exit, not for entry.
> I don't understand why you are talking about code maturity
If you mean me specifically, you might want to re-read the context of what
I wrote. :-)
--- Noel
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 17.01.2006, at 00:02, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Martin Cooper wrote:
>
>> whether I get involved with the Zimbra toolkit, and try to help them
>> see the light, I need to make a personal decision between putting my
>> energy into that, here at the ASF, or putting it into a non-ASF
>> project that is already on the right track. I know I don't have the
>> energy to do both. ;-)
>
> ...
> FWIW, I would want to see your technical concerns addressed before
> graduation, but so far, we have had little if any discussion of
> what those
> tecnical issues really are, or so it seems from the archives.
<rant>Remember that it's about the community not the code... maybe
you should add another bullet to the list at http://
incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html to record this
new criterion as another entry and/or exit requirement...</rant>
Seriously, I don't understand why you are talking about code maturity
here - IMO this isn't and shouldn't be one of the incubators concerns
- you are here to discuss legal stuff, community issues, mentors and
the Apache Way, no?
Cheers,
Erik
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Martin Cooper wrote:
> whether I get involved with the Zimbra toolkit, and try to help them
> see the light, I need to make a personal decision between putting my
> energy into that, here at the ASF, or putting it into a non-ASF
> project that is already on the right track. I know I don't have the
> energy to do both. ;-)
If you take your comment to a conclusion, you could be saying that if you
don't have time to contribute here, the project should be rejected.
Yes, I agree that I've reduced your comment to the absurd conclusion, and
one which you most certainly did not intend.
But what is a solution? You appear to be against trying to incubate the
project because of its current architecture, others appear to want to try.
Do we accept it because they want it give it a try, or reject it without
trying because you don't have time to help fix it?
I'll note that although I'm not familar with Zimbra, there is another
proposed project for the Incubator that I am familar with, due to working
with another project that uses it, and I seriously dislike it (I'd never use
it). Yes, I'm being intentionally vague, because I don't want to prejudice
it, and there are other people quite keen to incubate the project.
FWIW, I would want to see your technical concerns addressed before
graduation, but so far, we have had little if any discussion of what those
tecnical issues really are, or so it seems from the archives.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 1/16/06, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>
> Martin Cooper wrote:
>
> > I *care* about the quality of what we build here at the ASF. [X]
> > can very easily cause problems when [...]
>
> I have no problem with either of the above (redacted) sentences. However,
> the answer, in my view, is not to wait for X to become perfected
> elsewhere.
> Rather, if there is something wrong, and it is here, contribute to fixing
> it, even if the contributions are just kibbitzing.
Which is exactly what I've been doing over in MyFaces-land, by explaining
(or trying to explain, anyway) the issues with the use of Prototype in the
MyFaces ecosystem. I'm not a MyFaces committer, and I don't even use JSF,
but I'm still trying to help.
As for whether I get involved with the Zimbra toolkit, and try to help them
see the light, I need to make a personal decision between putting my energy
into that, here at the ASF, or putting it into a non-ASF project that is
already on the right track. I know I don't have the energy to do both. ;-)
--
Martin Cooper
Even if you don't contribute code, if you raise perfectly valid issues, and
> they are ignored, that would be an indicator that the project is not
> right.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
RE: ajax proposal?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Martin Cooper wrote:
> I *care* about the quality of what we build here at the ASF. [X]
> can very easily cause problems when [...]
I have no problem with either of the above (redacted) sentences. However,
the answer, in my view, is not to wait for X to become perfected elsewhere.
Rather, if there is something wrong, and it is here, contribute to fixing
it, even if the contributions are just kibbitzing.
Even if you don't contribute code, if you raise perfectly valid issues, and
they are ignored, that would be an indicator that the project is not right.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Martin Marinschek wrote:
> We could of course also set-up quality standards which have to be
> fullfilled before the project _leaves_ incubation. That's a good bar
> to set...
>
> As the name "MyFaces" has been mentioned quite a bit, I'll explain our
> situation. We currently use the prototype framework (one of the widely
> used projects in the market, which Martin Cooper by the way doesn't
> like either, due to namespacing issues). So, if Zimbra has the same
> problems, we don't really have a need for the library.
Whether I like Prototype or not isn't really the point. The point is that
I *care* about the quality of what we build here at the ASF. Prototype
can very easily cause problems when combined with other JavaScript code,
and this situation is even worse in a portlet environment, so I simply
want to make sure that the MyFaces team isn't setting itself up for
problems by relying on it.
--
Martin Cooper
> We are hoping for a major donation regarding javascript with ADF Faces
> - haven't had any chance to look on the sourcecode so far, though.
> Maybe this will settle all our javascript needs and we'll stop looking
> out for anything else.
>
> regards,
>
> Martin
>
> On 1/5/06, Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Martin Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/4/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do with
>>>> the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and decision??
>> ..
>>> Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX framework at
>>> this point in time. The area is relatively new and in a great deal of flux
>>> right now, and "crowning" one of them with the ASF brand will create a de
>>> facto standard instead of letting the market decide, whether we like it or
>>
>> We are part of that market - and I have no illusions about our ability to
>> set standards; we canot; we ONLY seem to do so when we happen to a) to
>> jump on the boat with the right technology and b) get the market to play
>> in our playground. (Marginally helped of course by the fact that so many
>> talented peopel and companies come to play here that we do set the odd's
>> for 'a' and have 'b' causal).
>>
>> If your argument is that the quality of Zimbra code is relatively low; or
>> too immature by itself - and that is why you worry about spoiling the
>> market by betting on the wrong horse - then we should simply reject -this-
>> proposal based on the fact that there is a) not enough quality in the
>> donation and b) no hope for it to improve in our playground.
>>
>> But in general - having the ASF offer it's eco system a place where we all
>> can work on Ajax (and have synergy with all the portal code we have, with
>> MyFaces^H^H^H^H^H^HOurFaces) seems like the right thing to do -when- there
>> are sufficient people interested to work on it. Which is the right
>> validating feedback loop.
>>
>> Dw.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> http://www.irian.at
>
> Your JSF powerhouse -
> JSF Consulting, Development and
> Courses in English and German
>
> Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Marinschek <ma...@gmail.com>.
We could of course also set-up quality standards which have to be
fullfilled before the project _leaves_ incubation. That's a good bar
to set...
As the name "MyFaces" has been mentioned quite a bit, I'll explain our
situation. We currently use the prototype framework (one of the widely
used projects in the market, which Martin Cooper by the way doesn't
like either, due to namespacing issues). So, if Zimbra has the same
problems, we don't really have a need for the library.
We are hoping for a major donation regarding javascript with ADF Faces
- haven't had any chance to look on the sourcecode so far, though.
Maybe this will settle all our javascript needs and we'll stop looking
out for anything else.
regards,
Martin
On 1/5/06, Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Martin Cooper wrote:
>
> > On 1/4/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> > >
> > > So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do with
> > > the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and decision??
> ..
> > Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX framework at
> > this point in time. The area is relatively new and in a great deal of flux
> > right now, and "crowning" one of them with the ASF brand will create a de
> > facto standard instead of letting the market decide, whether we like it or
>
> We are part of that market - and I have no illusions about our ability to
> set standards; we canot; we ONLY seem to do so when we happen to a) to
> jump on the boat with the right technology and b) get the market to play
> in our playground. (Marginally helped of course by the fact that so many
> talented peopel and companies come to play here that we do set the odd's
> for 'a' and have 'b' causal).
>
> If your argument is that the quality of Zimbra code is relatively low; or
> too immature by itself - and that is why you worry about spoiling the
> market by betting on the wrong horse - then we should simply reject -this-
> proposal based on the fact that there is a) not enough quality in the
> donation and b) no hope for it to improve in our playground.
>
> But in general - having the ASF offer it's eco system a place where we all
> can work on Ajax (and have synergy with all the portal code we have, with
> MyFaces^H^H^H^H^H^HOurFaces) seems like the right thing to do -when- there
> are sufficient people interested to work on it. Which is the right
> validating feedback loop.
>
> Dw.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
http://www.irian.at
Your JSF powerhouse -
JSF Consulting, Development and
Courses in English and German
Professional Support for Apache MyFaces
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
>
> On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Martin Cooper wrote:
>
>> On 1/4/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
>>>
>>> So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do with
>>> the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and decision??
> ..
>> Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX framework at
>> this point in time. The area is relatively new and in a great deal of flux
>> right now, and "crowning" one of them with the ASF brand will create a de
>> facto standard instead of letting the market decide, whether we like it or
>
> We are part of that market - and I have no illusions about our ability to
> set standards; we canot; we ONLY seem to do so when we happen to a) to
> jump on the boat with the right technology and b) get the market to play
> in our playground. (Marginally helped of course by the fact that so many
> talented peopel and companies come to play here that we do set the odd's
> for 'a' and have 'b' causal).
>
> If your argument is that the quality of Zimbra code is relatively low; or
> too immature by itself - and that is why you worry about spoiling the
> market by betting on the wrong horse - then we should simply reject -this-
> proposal based on the fact that there is a) not enough quality in the
> donation and b) no hope for it to improve in our playground.
An analogy would be the Java web app environment 5 years ago, when Model 2
frameworks came along and people realised that that was the way things
should be done, instead of Model 1. Just as I would not have been in
favour of bringing a Model 1 framework to the ASF at that time, I'm not in
favour of bringing in what I consider to be a previous-generation
JavaScript framework now. Why would we want to perpetuate the old way of
doing things?
--
Martin Cooper
> But in general - having the ASF offer it's eco system a place where we
> all can work on Ajax (and have synergy with all the portal code we have,
> with MyFaces^H^H^H^H^H^HOurFaces) seems like the right thing to do
> -when- there are sufficient people interested to work on it. Which is
> the right validating feedback loop.
>
> Dw.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Martin Cooper wrote:
> On 1/4/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> >
> > So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do with
> > the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and decision??
..
> Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX framework at
> this point in time. The area is relatively new and in a great deal of flux
> right now, and "crowning" one of them with the ASF brand will create a de
> facto standard instead of letting the market decide, whether we like it or
We are part of that market - and I have no illusions about our ability to
set standards; we canot; we ONLY seem to do so when we happen to a) to
jump on the boat with the right technology and b) get the market to play
in our playground. (Marginally helped of course by the fact that so many
talented peopel and companies come to play here that we do set the odd's
for 'a' and have 'b' causal).
If your argument is that the quality of Zimbra code is relatively low; or
too immature by itself - and that is why you worry about spoiling the
market by betting on the wrong horse - then we should simply reject -this-
proposal based on the fact that there is a) not enough quality in the
donation and b) no hope for it to improve in our playground.
But in general - having the ASF offer it's eco system a place where we all
can work on Ajax (and have synergy with all the portal code we have, with
MyFaces^H^H^H^H^H^HOurFaces) seems like the right thing to do -when- there
are sufficient people interested to work on it. Which is the right
validating feedback loop.
Dw.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 1/4/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
>
> So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do with
> the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and decision??
I don't believe there is a sponsoring PMC at this point.
Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX framework at
this point in time. The area is relatively new and in a great deal of flux
right now, and "crowning" one of them with the ASF brand will create a de
facto standard instead of letting the market decide, whether we like it or
not.
I realise that the Incubator doesn't work that way, though, and that plenty
of people don't seem to care / mind that we'd create a (premature, IMHO) de
facto standard, but I can always hope. ;-)
--
Martin Cooper
Sanjiva.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: ajax proposal?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
--On January 5, 2006 4:32:46 AM +0600 Sanjiva Weerawarana
<sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> So .. amidst all of our soul searching .. what'd we decide to do with
> the Ajax proposal from IBM et al.?? Did I miss the vote and decision??
Noe one has called for a vote. -- justin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org