'SVN' in client names (was Re: SmartSVN - a new Subversion client.)

[SteveKing <st...@gmx.ch>]

Brian Behlendorf wrote:
[snip]
> To date, seeing examples of this have just been somewhat annoying to me, 
> but I've held my tongue on the basis of "let's see where it goes".  I 
> hoped the community would feel the same kind of urge and eventually 
> someone would say something.  Maybe that conversation has already been 
> had, and I missed it. Or, maybe people are *expecting* CollabNet to 
> provide some sort of leadership here.  I'm sorry to pick on SmartSVN and 
> Marc, and do admit that it was the end of a long week and it was more an 
> accumulation of events rather than specifically SmartSVN.  But am I the 
> only one who feels this way?

Ok, I admit I didn't ask first if I can name my project "Tortoise_SVN_" 
or not. In fact, when I started it already was a registered project at 
tigris.org. And AFAIK, projects registered there have to be approved by 
tigris.org people before it goes online? So I thought the name was ok.

(and your LICENCE file only forbids the use of the "tigris" name, not 
"SVN" or even "Subversion" - maybe you guys should change that!)

But if you guys are uncomfortable with a project using the "SVN" in its 
name, I have no problem renaming TortoiseSVN to something else. Just 
drop me a note (and give me some time to find another name, it surely 
won't happen overnight).

Stefan

-- 
        ___
   oo  // \\      "De Chelonian Mobile"
  (_,\/ \_/ \     TortoiseSVN
    \ \_/_\_/>    The coolest Interface to (Sub)Version Control
    /_/   \_\     http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org

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Re: 'SVN' in client names (was Re: SmartSVN - a new Subversion client.)

[Ryan Bloom <rb...@gmail.com>]

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:17:37 -0800 (PST), Brian Behlendorf
<br...@collab.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, SteveKing wrote:
> > Ok, I admit I didn't ask first if I can name my project "Tortoise_SVN_" or
> > not. In fact, when I started it already was a registered project at
> > tigris.org. And AFAIK, projects registered there have to be approved by
> > tigris.org people before it goes online? So I thought the name was ok.
> 
> Yep, and in my opinion it is fine - other open source projects, "close by"
> in spirit and URL and license, are OK by me.  And if we get a "whole
> product" effort underway, that would provide another clear demarcation.

I am a lurker, and you all are free to ignore my opinion, but I take a
little exception to this.  The beauty of the Apache and Subversions
licenses, are that they don't play favorites between open source and
commercial projects.  Most of you guys know that I was very active in
Apache for a while, and I worked for two companies that released
Apache based products.  I also worked on some very minor open source
projects that extended Apache.

I was never comfortable with calling either commercial product Apache,
and we were always careful to say "XXXX, based on Apache".  I felt the
same way about my open source work.  I would never have called an open
source module "XXXApache", instead, I would have used a name like "XXX
for Apache".  I would have done that, because the Apache license
requires that I not use the Apache name directly without prior
approval.

By allowing open source projects to use the SVN name, but not
commercial projects, you cross the line about why you are writing open
source projects, IMHO.  Instead of using open source to create
communities and high quality software, you are using your open source
project to "suggest" that others write open source software.

I would much rather see a single rule about when and how you can use
"SVN" in your project names, rather than one rule that is for open
source projects and another that is for commercial projects.  This
puts everybody on equal footing, and helps to promote a community
around the project, because everybody is playing by the same rules. 
Changing the rules for commercial projects means that they are
essentially second-class citizens, which doesn't promote community.

Now, having said all of that, I don't have an opinion on using SVN in
a project name.  I see positives and negatives to both sides. 
However, based on how long the SVN project has been around and the
number of other projects using SVN in their names, I'm not sure how
you can stop new projects from doing the same thing.

Ryan
-- 
Ryan Bloom
rbb@apache.org
rbb@rkbloom.net
rbloom@gmail.com

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Re: 'SVN' in client names (was Re: SmartSVN - a new Subversion client.)

[SteveKing <st...@gmx.ch>]

Brian Behlendorf wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, SteveKing wrote:
> 
>> Ok, I admit I didn't ask first if I can name my project 
>> "Tortoise_SVN_" or not. In fact, when I started it already was a 
>> registered project at tigris.org. And AFAIK, projects registered there 
>> have to be approved by tigris.org people before it goes online? So I 
>> thought the name was ok.
> 
> Yep, and in my opinion it is fine - other open source projects, "close 
> by" in spirit and URL and license, are OK by me.  And if we get a "whole 
> product" effort underway, that would provide another clear demarcation.

I think the first step in that "whole product" effort should be a main 
website which serves as a portal to all the sub-projects and clients. If 
you look at the openoffice.org site (which also is "powered by 
collab.net") this could be a start. They too have some sub-projects (ok, 
they're all included in the openoffice package, but still). A user going 
to that site first sees everything about openoffice. Then, at the top 
there's a tab "projects" which will then lead to all the sub-projects.
Subversion could do the same, but instead of "projects" provide tabs for 
"clients" and "bindings".

(and maybe this would be finally the day where the mailing list archives 
_on that site_ will work and we won't have to use other archives ;) - 
btw: anyone knows when tigris.org gets updated?)

>> But if you guys are uncomfortable with a project using the "SVN" in 
>> its name, I have no problem renaming TortoiseSVN to something else. 
>> Just drop me a note (and give me some time to find another name, it 
>> surely won't happen overnight).
> 
> 
> No!  Please, keep using it.  I'd rather adjust the policy and our 
> approach to include you than piss you off.  :)

Ok, thanks. I'll keep the name then.

Stefan

-- 
        ___
   oo  // \\      "De Chelonian Mobile"
  (_,\/ \_/ \     TortoiseSVN
    \ \_/_\_/>    The coolest Interface to (Sub)Version Control
    /_/   \_\     http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org

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Re: 'SVN' in client names (was Re: SmartSVN - a new Subversion client.)

[Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>]

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, SteveKing wrote:
> Ok, I admit I didn't ask first if I can name my project "Tortoise_SVN_" or 
> not. In fact, when I started it already was a registered project at 
> tigris.org. And AFAIK, projects registered there have to be approved by 
> tigris.org people before it goes online? So I thought the name was ok.

Yep, and in my opinion it is fine - other open source projects, "close by" 
in spirit and URL and license, are OK by me.  And if we get a "whole 
product" effort underway, that would provide another clear demarcation.

> (and your LICENCE file only forbids the use of the "tigris" name, not "SVN" 
> or even "Subversion" - maybe you guys should change that!)

Yep.

> But if you guys are uncomfortable with a project using the "SVN" in its name, 
> I have no problem renaming TortoiseSVN to something else. Just drop me a note 
> (and give me some time to find another name, it surely won't happen 
> overnight).

No!  Please, keep using it.  I'd rather adjust the policy and our approach 
to include you than piss you off.  :)

 	Brian


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