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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2003/07/23 06:35:09 UTC
[RT] Updating our marketing strategy
I'm on the plane back to Italy. My iTunes plays Celia Cruz's "el
carnival de la vida" in honor of her recent death. And I'm thinking
that the time has arrived for this RT to land.
In really short term: Cocoon is mismarketed.
I think many realize this.
What many don't necessarely realize is that this has been kept so on
purpose. At least by me.
Cocoon, so far, has been marketed as a publishing framework. Web
publishing is mostly a stateless thing and, everybody agrees, Cocoon
rocks for stateless sites even if it has been hard to market it on
those realms where performance, scalability and high availability is
critical, mostly due to the fact that the concept of transparent
proxying is not understood at all by system administrators and Apache
HTTPd has always done a really bad job in promoting the proxy concept.
Anyway, while publishing accounted for the greatest majority of money
invested on the web in the early days, today this is not true anymore
as most data-driven stateful web applications (and most of them are not
public!) get the funding.
That's where the money is and J2EE knows this.
Now, with the advent of the flow (consider it abstract, I'm not talking
about continuations-based flowscript), cocoon is ready to confront with
web-app frameworks such as Struts, Turbine and the like.
But with a great advantage: we are the only project adressing this need
from the publishing perspective.
The Zope people are busy trying to move from a CMS-oriented mindset to
a CMF-oriented mindset (and rewriting avalon in python, in the
meanwhile and going CoP... we are years ahead of them in that area,
both in technological terms and in community terms)
Everybody else started with the FSM concept and grew on it. Result:
fragmentation of the control concern and overlapping of all the
presentation concerns.
This is what we have, now: how do we make people understand why the
above is better than what is exists out there?
- o -
IMHO, we can't and we shouldn't.
We don't have a billion dollar marketing engine. We don't have access
to the technical press (only a few opensource-related web sites, but
the CEO don't read those things).
If we market cocoon as 'an alternative to best J2EE practices' we find
ourselves fighting against J2EE and .NET
I have said this before, but let me repeat it here: cocoon has a great
advantage, it is a combination of three things that carry lots of
marketing momentum "java, xml and apache".
I fully believe that cocoon is far superior technologically, but
marketing-wise, our differences from a "regular" J2EE implementation
are too subdle for a project manager to understand, probably even for a
CTO.
Cocoon enforces SoC and this is the marketing value, but the value of
SoC is not so evident unless you apply it in a working environment.
So, out strategy should be to "sneak cocoon behind the enemy lines",
basically market it as some innocent thing that helps without hurting
but without being pretentious about its capabilities.
Once cocoon enters a working environment, people wills start
understanding the value of SoC and SoC-enforcing architectures and will
be infected by this meme, resulting in the use of cocoon in more and
more locations.
I've seen this happening several times: cocoon entered by the back door
and made it all the way to the front door and when people marketed it,
they found out they were already using it!
- o -
Cocoon is glue and duct tape for your web needs.
Sounds harmless, doesn't it? suppose you want to use cocoon in some of
your web stuff because you like the features and the how it works...
you go to your boss and he asks you,
boss: what the hell is this?
you: it's apache stuff written in java and xml
boss: ok, but what does it do?
at this point:
scenario a:
you: it's the next big thing, they promote a concept called MVC++
that uses continuations based flowscript to keep a centralized control
flow and a view composed of pipelines made of reusable components
boss: how does it integrate with Struts?
you: well, this is way better
boss: hmmm, who uses it?
you: well, this is new stuff, cocoon used to be a publishing
framework and only recently they added the necessary functionality to
match other webapp frameworks
boss: so, you are asking me to replace a de-facto industry standard
with something that come out from nowhere and without no industry
backup? forget it
scenario b:
you: they call it "glue for your web needs". basically, it can
cohexist side by side with our existing J2EE infrastructre and provide
additional services like dynamic PDF or excel generation. we were
thinking about using it to generate our database reports in excel for
our sales people.
boss: hmmm, interesting. does it need any change in our
infrastructure?
you: no, not at all, it's a fully compliant J2EE thing, we can
install it in what we have and we can make it talk to what we already
have with no problem. it's a java servlet after all.
boss: what about performance, memory, load and the like?
you: well, since the processing they do is rather extensive, they
include a pretty fancy caching architecture that keeps track of those
resources that didn't change. the cache logic is pluggable so we can
write it to match our needs. it is also designed to be proxy friendly,
so it works transparently with our proxy setup.
boss: apache stuff?
you: yep, open source, apache license and a pretty healthy
community, something like 15 active developers
boss: who is using it?
you: apparently, it has been used in many different ways: from
financial institutions to provide B2B capabilities to personal weblogs.
It seems like rather powerful stuff.
boss: is there anybody providing support?
you: well, Oracle explicitly states to provide support for it, along
with Struts and Turbine. Moreover, recently, 6 european companies
formed a business alliance to provide cocoon support and development.
Ah, several books have been published on it. it's a rather popular
projects in the java/xml world.
boss: hmmm, sounds cool, but why didn't I hear about this before?
you: the project is evolving rather fast. it was born as a proof of
concept of using XML technologies for publishing, but given the great
success it had, it grew into a much more complete framework.
boss: but, again, you say it interoperates nicely with what we
already have?
you: totally! as I said, it can work with all the J2EE stuff we have.
boss: all right, go ahead.
The two scenarios reflect the different approaches we can take.
I propose to choose the humble one.
At that point, we would be *inside* and cocoon will do the marketing
itself by perpetuating its viral memes to the technical guys who will
get more and more used to it and will start using it for more and more
stuff.
At that point, we won't even have to go around saying "we are better
than struts"... we just say we are different. people will choose what
they like the best and what fits their needs the most.
What do you think?
--
Stefano.
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Geoff Howard <co...@leverageweb.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> I'm on the plane back to Italy. My iTunes plays Celia Cruz's "el
> carnival de la vida" in honor of her recent death. And I'm thinking that
> the time has arrived for this RT to land.
>
> In really short term: Cocoon is mismarketed.
>
> I think many realize this.
...
> Cocoon is glue and duct tape for your web needs.
In general great - but I have a little fear about the perception that
"duct tape" could have. Did you mean that as a literal quote? What
about saying that we can either be the foundation, the glue, or the duct
tape depending on your needs?
...
> I propose to choose the humble one.
>
> At that point, we would be *inside* and cocoon will do the marketing
> itself by perpetuating its viral memes to the technical guys who will
> get more and more used to it and will start using it for more and more
> stuff.
>
> At that point, we won't even have to go around saying "we are better
> than struts"... we just say we are different. people will choose what
> they like the best and what fits their needs the most.
>
> What do you think?
Absolutely +1000.
Related to positioning ourselves as glue/duct tape:
Speaking of J2EE, I think we are really missing the boat by not offering
really dead-simple integration with EJB (even though so many here are
waiting for its carcass). The fact is that EJB for now is the reigning
king and needs a good front end. I know Cocoon works well with EJB but
it isn't dead simple for a newbie to see how.
Unfortunately, I am not currently using them and didn't even have a
container installed at home until recently. Anyone want to work on some
examples/code with me?
Geoff
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Tony Collen wrote:
>
>>> I think that having a "Testimonials" section will also help. Real
>>> comments
>>> from real users. How did it save time? How did it make things
>>> easier to
>>> maintain? When did it pay off?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, damn it. We need that.
>>
>> I'll write a letter copying users@ for this.
>
>
> I have a good start: Look at
> http://cocoon.apache.org/link/livesites.html. Warner Brothers
> Switzerland is using Cocoon. WB is huge! Having a testimonial from WB
> saying why they use Cocoon and why it's good enough for them would be an
> awesome bit of publicity.
>
> Plus, there's enough people in the community here with small companies
> that use Cocoon (Outerthought, S&N, etc), that it would be trivial for
> Steven or Matthew or Carsten or anyone else with a company to write up
> why they're using Cocoon.
>
> And not just, "We like it because XML rocks" ... perhaps something like,
> "Cocoon makes us more productive," or "Developing applications with
> Cocoon saved us X amount of money and time." or even "Cocoon is so
> flexible we don't have to worry about being left behind when new
> technologies come around." Hard facts and evidence why Cocoon is good is
> better than trying to explain the finer points of SoC or IoC, especially
> when you're trying to sell Cocoon to the pointy-haired boss.
>
Here is an excellent example of what would be good to see:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?AvalonTestimonials
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu>.
(phew, awesome thread, I'll try to reply to stuff inline.... )
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> On Thursday, Jul 24, 2003, at 15:02 Europe/Rome, Berin Loritsch wrote:
<snip>
>> I think that having a "Testimonials" section will also help. Real
>> comments
>> from real users. How did it save time? How did it make things easier to
>> maintain? When did it pay off?
>
>
> Yes, damn it. We need that.
>
> I'll write a letter copying users@ for this.
I have a good start: Look at http://cocoon.apache.org/link/livesites.html. Warner Brothers
Switzerland is using Cocoon. WB is huge! Having a testimonial from WB saying why they use Cocoon
and why it's good enough for them would be an awesome bit of publicity.
Plus, there's enough people in the community here with small companies that use Cocoon
(Outerthought, S&N, etc), that it would be trivial for Steven or Matthew or Carsten or anyone else
with a company to write up why they're using Cocoon.
And not just, "We like it because XML rocks" ... perhaps something like, "Cocoon makes us more
productive," or "Developing applications with Cocoon saved us X amount of money and time." or even
"Cocoon is so flexible we don't have to worry about being left behind when new technologies come
around." Hard facts and evidence why Cocoon is good is better than trying to explain the finer
points of SoC or IoC, especially when you're trying to sell Cocoon to the pointy-haired boss.
Press Releases are contrived news (and usually fake sounding), but they help get the word out.
Could you imagine the release of Cocoon 2.1 being posted on Slashdot! Think of all the attention
(good and bad).
>>> At that point, we would be *inside* and cocoon will do the marketing
>>> itself by perpetuating its viral memes to the technical guys who will
>>> get more and more used to it and will start using it for more and
>>> more stuff.
>>> At that point, we won't even have to go around saying "we are better
>>> than struts"... we just say we are different. people will choose what
>>> they like the best and what fits their needs the most.
>>> What do you think?
>>
>>
>> Isn't that what we are doing anyway?
>
>
> yes, but officially we are still producing a publishing framework and
> then, hidden inside, there are other cool features.
>
> We have to change course of promotion but still keep the humble
> attitude. This is my point.
I must say, I do enjoy the humble attitude of the community :) It's certainly a lot better than
other projects who have a single person developing who has become such an "internet personality",
the fame's gotten to their head and they're a complete jerk. But that's OT, so I'll drop it ;)
I'm more than willing to help out with marketing stuff, especialyl since I don't neccesarily have
the time/resources to devote to bugs/actual coding =]
Tony
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by "Simon Hürlimann (IMSEC)" <si...@imsec.ch>.
Hi all
I just subscribed to this list a few minutes ago, so if I missed something...
:-)
Am Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2003 16.05 schrieb Stefano Mazzocchi:
> On Thursday, Jul 24, 2003, at 15:02 Europe/Rome, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
[snip]
> >> Once cocoon enters a working environment, people wills start
> >> understanding the value of SoC and SoC-enforcing architectures and
> >> will be infected by this meme, resulting in the use of cocoon in more
> >> and more locations.
Happened to me :-)
> >> I've seen this happening several times: cocoon entered by the back
> >> door and made it all the way to the front door and when people
> >> marketed it, they found out they were already using it!
Kind of same in my case. But a little bit worse:
We developed a webbased DBMS. It took quite a long way to evolutionize, from
PHP to PHP/XML to Java to Java/Tomcat... And finaly Cocoon. Well, the switch
to Cocoon wasn't realy an evolution, but after about 2 years of development,
we switched to Cocoon, and after some 3 or 4 weeks we have built the same
functionality from scratch :-)
> The major issue with sneaking things behind enemy lines is ensuring the
> project can survive beyond the person who snuck it in. Right now, the
> learning curve is just too high, because even though Cocoon encourages
> SoC most people don't know how to deal with that. Any time you have a
> CTO that forces you to name variables a certain way (micromanagers in
> small companies), they are going to want to know every facet of Cocoon.
I had the big advantage, that I was building something very similar to Cocoon.
But as we had only the manpower of two busy students, there were just good
starts all over the place, but no real result :-(
Well, I learned a lot about Java, XML, XSLT... so it was quite easy to switch
to Cocoon. And damn, *it's heaven on earth*! Everything is about the way I
had in mind when we developed our thing (plus much more).
[snip]
> > I think that having a "Testimonials" section will also help. Real
> > comments
> > from real users. How did it save time? How did it make things easier
> > to
> > maintain? When did it pay off?
Well, it realy did for us!
[snip]
> --
> Stefano.
Regards Simon
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Geoff Howard <co...@leverageweb.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>> Remember, it is included in JBuilder, which is no small feat. As I
>> recall,
>> I don't remember Struts or Turbine being included.... THat is a definite
>> start and part of the "marketing" package.
>
> Yes, but they include Cocoon 1 and they do a really poor job at it. (the
> person who did the integration left the team, as well as those who
> decided to do it) I don't know if I want to attach myself to something
> that, pretty soon, will be removed. That would impact us too much.
I know this is a naive question, but could we contact them and offer to
help with getting up to speed with Cocoon 2?
This reminds me of the SleepyCat xml database inquiry. They get press
in things I know people at least thumb through (eWeek). They inquired
about integrating with Cocoon and there was some response from us, but
it kind of dropped. For marketing purposes I would think pursuing those
things would be good for business, no?
Geoff
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
On Thursday, Jul 24, 2003, at 15:02 Europe/Rome, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> I'm on the plane back to Italy. My iTunes plays Celia Cruz's "el
>> carnival de la vida" in honor of her recent death. And I'm thinking
>> that the time has arrived for this RT to land.
>> In really short term: Cocoon is mismarketed.
>> I think many realize this.
>> What many don't necessarely realize is that this has been kept so on
>> purpose. At least by me.
>
> <snip/>
>
>> So, out strategy should be to "sneak cocoon behind the enemy lines",
>> basically market it as some innocent thing that helps without hurting
>> but without being pretentious about its capabilities.
>
> It worked for Linux... And I think it is happening now anyways. I
> know
> I got it into my last company--but my current company does not have a
> need
> for web based stuff (or if they do they us M$ technologies for
> it--grmbl).
>
> We have the function down. We can make things work quite nicely. Now,
> the other issue is not making things work, but education. The Linux
> Documentation Project (LDP) was started so that all the How-Tos and and
> Guides would lower the barrier of entry. As a result, you can easily
> go
> to the one-stop-shop and find out almost anything you need to know.
>
> The major issue with sneaking things behind enemy lines is ensuring the
> project can survive beyond the person who snuck it in. Right now, the
> learning curve is just too high, because even though Cocoon encourages
> SoC most people don't know how to deal with that. Any time you have a
> CTO that forces you to name variables a certain way (micromanagers in
> small companies), they are going to want to know every facet of Cocoon.
>
> I have constantly tried to get folks to work on one thing at a time.
> I tell them "I set it up so that all you have to do is create the
> source
> files". Out of the tens of people I have coached, only one really
> "got it"
> before they had to work on something else or leave the company.
>
> Our Cocoon Documentation Project (CDP) should have a bunch of focussed
> How Tos to lower the barrier of entry. Don't focus on the big honkin'
> guide--it will have to be changed and edited far too much anyway.
I completely agree.
>> Once cocoon enters a working environment, people wills start
>> understanding the value of SoC and SoC-enforcing architectures and
>> will be infected by this meme, resulting in the use of cocoon in more
>> and more locations.
>
> Remember, it is included in JBuilder, which is no small feat. As I
> recall,
> I don't remember Struts or Turbine being included.... THat is a
> definite
> start and part of the "marketing" package.
Yes, but they include Cocoon 1 and they do a really poor job at it.
(the person who did the integration left the team, as well as those who
decided to do it) I don't know if I want to attach myself to something
that, pretty soon, will be removed. That would impact us too much.
>> I've seen this happening several times: cocoon entered by the back
>> door and made it all the way to the front door and when people
>> marketed it, they found out they were already using it!
>
> :) I love that story. Same thing for what Cocoon is based on: Avalon.
> While I have found you can live quite comfortably without EJBs when we
> use Avalon components, the Avalon team never markets the framework as
> a competitor to EJBs. Why? Same reason Cocoon doesn't market itself
> as a competitor to other de facto standard systems.
There are rumors in the JBoss community that with a serious AOP you
don't need EJB.
Avalon is just waay too far ahead of its time.
>> Cocoon is glue and duct tape for your web needs.
>> Sounds harmless, doesn't it? suppose you want to use cocoon in some
>> of your web stuff because you like the features and the how it
>> works...
>
> It's hard to nail down something as large as Cocoon in one line.
true, but we have to. otherwise the "cocoon is a web publishing
framework based on xml technologies" will stick forever and we'll be
harmed by it.
> <snip/>
>
>> The two scenarios reflect the different approaches we can take.
>> I propose to choose the humble one.
>
> I think that having a "Testimonials" section will also help. Real
> comments
> from real users. How did it save time? How did it make things easier
> to
> maintain? When did it pay off?
Yes, damn it. We need that.
I'll write a letter copying users@ for this.
>> At that point, we would be *inside* and cocoon will do the marketing
>> itself by perpetuating its viral memes to the technical guys who will
>> get more and more used to it and will start using it for more and
>> more stuff.
>> At that point, we won't even have to go around saying "we are better
>> than struts"... we just say we are different. people will choose what
>> they like the best and what fits their needs the most.
>> What do you think?
>
> Isn't that what we are doing anyway?
yes, but officially we are still producing a publishing framework and
then, hidden inside, there are other cool features.
We have to change course of promotion but still keep the humble
attitude. This is my point.
--
Stefano.
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> I'm on the plane back to Italy. My iTunes plays Celia Cruz's "el
> carnival de la vida" in honor of her recent death. And I'm thinking that
> the time has arrived for this RT to land.
>
> In really short term: Cocoon is mismarketed.
>
> I think many realize this.
>
> What many don't necessarely realize is that this has been kept so on
> purpose. At least by me.
<snip/>
>
> So, out strategy should be to "sneak cocoon behind the enemy lines",
> basically market it as some innocent thing that helps without hurting
> but without being pretentious about its capabilities.
It worked for Linux... And I think it is happening now anyways. I know
I got it into my last company--but my current company does not have a need
for web based stuff (or if they do they us M$ technologies for it--grmbl).
We have the function down. We can make things work quite nicely. Now,
the other issue is not making things work, but education. The Linux
Documentation Project (LDP) was started so that all the How-Tos and and
Guides would lower the barrier of entry. As a result, you can easily go
to the one-stop-shop and find out almost anything you need to know.
The major issue with sneaking things behind enemy lines is ensuring the
project can survive beyond the person who snuck it in. Right now, the
learning curve is just too high, because even though Cocoon encourages
SoC most people don't know how to deal with that. Any time you have a
CTO that forces you to name variables a certain way (micromanagers in
small companies), they are going to want to know every facet of Cocoon.
I have constantly tried to get folks to work on one thing at a time.
I tell them "I set it up so that all you have to do is create the source
files". Out of the tens of people I have coached, only one really "got it"
before they had to work on something else or leave the company.
Our Cocoon Documentation Project (CDP) should have a bunch of focussed
How Tos to lower the barrier of entry. Don't focus on the big honkin'
guide--it will have to be changed and edited far too much anyway.
>
> Once cocoon enters a working environment, people wills start
> understanding the value of SoC and SoC-enforcing architectures and will
> be infected by this meme, resulting in the use of cocoon in more and
> more locations.
Remember, it is included in JBuilder, which is no small feat. As I recall,
I don't remember Struts or Turbine being included.... THat is a definite
start and part of the "marketing" package.
>
> I've seen this happening several times: cocoon entered by the back door
> and made it all the way to the front door and when people marketed it,
> they found out they were already using it!
:) I love that story. Same thing for what Cocoon is based on: Avalon.
While I have found you can live quite comfortably without EJBs when we
use Avalon components, the Avalon team never markets the framework as
a competitor to EJBs. Why? Same reason Cocoon doesn't market itself
as a competitor to other de facto standard systems.
>
> Cocoon is glue and duct tape for your web needs.
>
> Sounds harmless, doesn't it? suppose you want to use cocoon in some of
> your web stuff because you like the features and the how it works...
It's hard to nail down something as large as Cocoon in one line.
<snip/>
>
> The two scenarios reflect the different approaches we can take.
>
> I propose to choose the humble one.
I think that having a "Testimonials" section will also help. Real comments
from real users. How did it save time? How did it make things easier to
maintain? When did it pay off?
>
> At that point, we would be *inside* and cocoon will do the marketing
> itself by perpetuating its viral memes to the technical guys who will
> get more and more used to it and will start using it for more and more
> stuff.
>
> At that point, we won't even have to go around saying "we are better
> than struts"... we just say we are different. people will choose what
> they like the best and what fits their needs the most.
>
> What do you think?
Isn't that what we are doing anyway?
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Konstantin Piroumian <kp...@apache.org>.
From: "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org>
> On 29/07/2003 9:28 Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > I'll write something up.
>
> I needed something for a conference I'll be speaking, and I came up with:
>
> "Apache Cocoon is a compelling XML-centric framework for building
> serious web applications.
Sorry for jumping in, but I'd change 'serious' to something more explicit,
e.g. 'enterprise', 'multipurpose', 'flexible', 'flowfull' (C) or something
like that...
>Different from traditional development
> frameworks, Cocoon provides XML pipelining and aggregation for content
> composition cleanly separated from a flow definition and execution
> context, offering an ideal platform for both content- and logic-driven
> web applications."
>
> How does that sound?
Much better than the current one.
-- Konstantin
>
> </Steven>
> --
> Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
> Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
> Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
> stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
>
>
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
On Tuesday, Aug 5, 2003, at 10:29 Europe/Rome, Steven Noels wrote:
> On 29/07/2003 9:28 Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> I'll write something up.
>
> I needed something for a conference I'll be speaking, and I came up
> with:
>
> "Apache Cocoon is a compelling XML-centric framework for building
> serious web applications. Different from traditional development
> frameworks, Cocoon provides XML pipelining and aggregation for content
> composition cleanly separated from a flow definition and execution
> context, offering an ideal platform for both content- and logic-driven
> web applications."
>
> How does that sound?
I'm committing a README.txt as we speak.
--
Stefano.
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Le Mardi, 5 aoû 2003, à 10:29 Europe/Zurich, Steven Noels a écrit :
> ...I needed something for a conference I'll be speaking, and I came up
> with:
>
> "Apache Cocoon is a compelling XML-centric framework
"compelling" sounds like marketingspeak to me, I'd take it out
> for building serious web applications.
Like Konstantin, I find "serious" not precise enough.
heavy-duty?
industrial grade?
simple or complex?
> Different from traditional development frameworks, Cocoon provides XML
> pipelining and aggregation for content composition cleanly separated
> from a flow definition
maybe "page flow"?
> and execution context, offering an ideal platform for both content-
> and logic-driven web applications."
>
> How does that sound?
Sounds good!
-Bertrand
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Richard in Public <ed...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
What sort of people will be in the audience? (Sorry if I missed an
earlier explanation?)
Robert Sayre wrote:
>On 8/5/03 4:29 AM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>>On 29/07/2003 9:28 Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I'll write something up.
>>>
>>>
>>I needed something for a conference I'll be speaking, and I came up with:
>>
>>"Apache Cocoon is a compelling XML-centric framework for building
>>serious web applications. Different from traditional development
>>frameworks, Cocoon provides XML pipelining and aggregation for content
>>composition cleanly separated from a flow definition and execution
>>context, offering an ideal platform for both content- and logic-driven
>>web applications."
>>
>>How does that sound?
>>
>>
>>
>
>"content- and logic-driven" is a little difficult to understand. When it
>comes down to it, neither really means anything (I know what you mean, but I
>understand your sentence in a cocoon context).
>
>How about this:
>"Different from traditional development frameworks, Cocoon provides XML
>pipelining and aggregation for content composition cleanly separated from a
>flow definition and execution context. This separation of concerns makes it
>an ideal platform for both publishing- and task-based web applications."
>
>"Task-based" may not be the best choice of words, but it "logic-driven" is a
>little vague, IMO.
>
>
>
>
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Robert Sayre <mi...@franklinmint.fm>.
On 8/5/03 4:29 AM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
> On 29/07/2003 9:28 Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> I'll write something up.
>
> I needed something for a conference I'll be speaking, and I came up with:
>
> "Apache Cocoon is a compelling XML-centric framework for building
> serious web applications. Different from traditional development
> frameworks, Cocoon provides XML pipelining and aggregation for content
> composition cleanly separated from a flow definition and execution
> context, offering an ideal platform for both content- and logic-driven
> web applications."
>
> How does that sound?
>
"content- and logic-driven" is a little difficult to understand. When it
comes down to it, neither really means anything (I know what you mean, but I
understand your sentence in a cocoon context).
How about this:
"Different from traditional development frameworks, Cocoon provides XML
pipelining and aggregation for content composition cleanly separated from a
flow definition and execution context. This separation of concerns makes it
an ideal platform for both publishing- and task-based web applications."
"Task-based" may not be the best choice of words, but it "logic-driven" is a
little vague, IMO.
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 29/07/2003 9:28 Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> I'll write something up.
I needed something for a conference I'll be speaking, and I came up with:
"Apache Cocoon is a compelling XML-centric framework for building
serious web applications. Different from traditional development
frameworks, Cocoon provides XML pipelining and aggregation for content
composition cleanly separated from a flow definition and execution
context, offering an ideal platform for both content- and logic-driven
web applications."
How does that sound?
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
On Tuesday, Jul 29, 2003, at 05:10 Europe/Rome, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> Cocoon is glue and duct tape for your web needs.
>
> ...
>
>> I propose to choose the humble one.
>
>
> I guess we are all agree with your RT. What's next -- what we are
> going to update? :)
I'll write something up.
--
Stefano.
Re: [RT] Updating our marketing strategy
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Cocoon is glue and duct tape for your web needs.
...
> I propose to choose the humble one.
I guess we are all agree with your RT. What's next -- what we are going
to update? :)
Vadim