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Posted to users@openoffice.apache.org by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> on 2012/03/31 15:57:48 UTC
A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Caesar <ca...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 19:51:42 -0400, Stacie Jones
> <qu...@gmail.com> wrote Re Re: I Hate Your Product:
>
> >Is it a prerequisite that everyone on this list have absolutely no manners
> >whatsoever? I'm so sick of getting these nasty messages.
>
> I'm glad you brought this up. This list server seems to have the
> highest percentage of computer-clueless people I have seen anywhere.
> It's unbelievable. The top posters are the worst offenders.
>
>
A quick perspective from a list moderator.
The parent post was not sent by a list subscriber. Apache lists are
configured to allow anyone to post, including non-subscribers. If someone
is not a subscriber their posts are held for moderation. If they are not
spam, I let the post through. This is true, even if the post is rude.
(But if it included a lot of swearing I would not let it through).
Now, let's look at it from the user's perspective, and have some sympathy.
Their first choice was not to send a note to this list. Their post comes
at the end of a long chain of failures and frustrations, being bounced
around by Dell and Amazon, not figuring out OpenOffice, probably not
finding a good answer searching Google or on our website.
However, I think a user that is in this state is not best served by sending
a note to this list.
A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on the
response.
B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated by
unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe themselves
without assistance.
So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much better
place for users to raise such questions.
What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list compared to
the support forums? On some project communications we advertise both as
equal support avenues for users to raise problems. Is that what we should
be doing? In other words, what is the purpose of this list and how do we
make that clear to users?
-Rob
Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Stacie Jones <qu...@gmail.com>.
I won't apologize for not sympathizing with someone that starts out by
being defensive! This list has as many purposes(is that a word?) are there
are subscribers. I personally will not vote for enabling flamers! In an
ideal world, netiquette is unnecessary, old-fashioned manners are enough.
Thanks All,
Stacie
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Caesar <ca...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 19:51:42 -0400, Stacie Jones
> > <qu...@gmail.com> wrote Re Re: I Hate Your Product:
> >
> > >Is it a prerequisite that everyone on this list have absolutely no
> manners
> > >whatsoever? I'm so sick of getting these nasty messages.
> >
> > I'm glad you brought this up. This list server seems to have the
> > highest percentage of computer-clueless people I have seen anywhere.
> > It's unbelievable. The top posters are the worst offenders.
> >
> >
> A quick perspective from a list moderator.
>
> The parent post was not sent by a list subscriber. Apache lists are
> configured to allow anyone to post, including non-subscribers. If someone
> is not a subscriber their posts are held for moderation. If they are not
> spam, I let the post through. This is true, even if the post is rude.
> (But if it included a lot of swearing I would not let it through).
>
> Now, let's look at it from the user's perspective, and have some sympathy.
> Their first choice was not to send a note to this list. Their post comes
> at the end of a long chain of failures and frustrations, being bounced
> around by Dell and Amazon, not figuring out OpenOffice, probably not
> finding a good answer searching Google or on our website.
>
> However, I think a user that is in this state is not best served by sending
> a note to this list.
>
> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
> not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on the
> response.
>
> B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated by
> unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe themselves
> without assistance.
>
> So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
> unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much better
> place for users to raise such questions.
>
> What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list compared to
> the support forums? On some project communications we advertise both as
> equal support avenues for users to raise problems. Is that what we should
> be doing? In other words, what is the purpose of this list and how do we
> make that clear to users?
>
> -Rob
>
--
Peace,
Stacie M. Jones
~"Lokaa samastaa sukhino bhavantu,"~
"May all worlds be happy."
Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
Let's hope it will change with an AOO release...
> I downloaded Open Office at about 3 pm today and can't believe the deluge of bad-tempered emails, largely unintelligible to me, which have landed on me since then. Is there any reason why I should go on subscribing to this or does that question answer itself?
>
> Cheers
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by David Rivers <dr...@ihug.co.nz>.
On the other hand, there are those of us users who are not Apache
insiders, but nevertheless like to pick up tips from the chaff and help
out others when we can. :)
Terry wrote:
> That is a very good question. Most of the debate relating to this subject is between Apache insiders. I see no reason why 'users' should be involuntarily involved in the discussions.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ian<ia...@gmail.com>
>> To: "ooo-users@incubator.apache.org"<oo...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Cc: "ooo-users@incubator.apache.org"<oo...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2012 6:57 AM
>> Subject: Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
>>
>> I downloaded Open Office at about 3 pm today and can't believe the deluge of
>> bad-tempered emails, largely unintelligible to me, which have landed on me since
>> then. Is there any reason why I should go on subscribing to this or does that
>> question answer itself?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 31 Mar 2012, at 21:40, Hagar Delest<ha...@laposte.net> wrote:
>>
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Terry <te...@yahoo.com.au>.
That is a very good question. Most of the debate relating to this subject is between Apache insiders. I see no reason why 'users' should be involuntarily involved in the discussions.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Ian <ia...@gmail.com>
> To: "ooo-users@incubator.apache.org" <oo...@incubator.apache.org>
> Cc: "ooo-users@incubator.apache.org" <oo...@incubator.apache.org>
> Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2012 6:57 AM
> Subject: Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
>
> I downloaded Open Office at about 3 pm today and can't believe the deluge of
> bad-tempered emails, largely unintelligible to me, which have landed on me since
> then. Is there any reason why I should go on subscribing to this or does that
> question answer itself?
>
> Cheers
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 31 Mar 2012, at 21:40, Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net> wrote:
>
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Ian <ia...@gmail.com>.
I downloaded Open Office at about 3 pm today and can't believe the deluge of bad-tempered emails, largely unintelligible to me, which have landed on me since then. Is there any reason why I should go on subscribing to this or does that question answer itself?
Cheers
Sent from my iPhone
On 31 Mar 2012, at 21:40, Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net> wrote:
> Le Sat, 31 Mar 2012 09:57:48 -0400, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> a écrit :
>> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
>> not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on the
>> response.
>
> Well, it's part of the channel. There are ways to spot unsubscribed posters (there are some bugs in TB preventing that, I agree) So up to the list power users to handle such posters.
> On the former OOo mailing list, users were quite used to CC OP when not subscribed IIRC (and at this time TB was doing a good job at spotting the headers, ok I'll stop here no TB devs here).
>
>
>> B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated by
>> unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe themselves
>> without assistance.
>>
>> So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
>> unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much better
>> place for users to raise such questions.
>>
>> What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list compared to
>> the support forums? On some project communications we advertise both as
>> equal support avenues for users to raise problems. Is that what we should
>> be doing? In other words, what is the purpose of this list and how do we
>> make that clear to users?
>
> Basically, I'm not sure that redirecting a user to another place (forum for example) would help, it doesn't answer the question and it adds frustration (he has to register the forum whereas he was expecting a direct answer from the list).
>
> What would be the list then? A place for somehow advanced users only? ... Just saw your post in the mean time, so yes, that's what you want.
> Then, the solution is quite simple: forbid any non subscribed user.
> But is it really the kind of support the community wants? Some users don't want to use forums, does it means that they are on their own?
> You're dealing with a low level user base with OOo. The public is not made of developers used to mailing lists here, they are standard or low knowledge users. The former list was full of duplicates, the same questions come again and again, but that's the job.
> We have this kind of eternal September in the forum too. We could just reply "RTFM" or "Google is your friend". But we know that if the user asked the question, that's because he hasn't RTFM or searched the web or the forum. So we give the reply and that's all, that's part of the job (it doesn't prevent to add a note inviting to search the next time).
>
> Perhaps there are good reasons from our side to be bored with such users but their situation is special: they got frustrated about the application (from their point of view) and first they are not in their normal state and second any reply that doesn't help will be seen as proof that the product is not user oriented.
>
> Hagar
>
>
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>
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Martin Groenescheij <Ma...@Groenescheij.COM>.
On 1/04/2012 7:53 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> I think the users want to send to a private
> support address where they will receive a
> personal response with no extraneous emails.
>
> Of course, we don't have that.
>
> So what is better for that kind of user? Fool
> them into thinking that ooo-users is what they
> want? Or direct them to the forums? Neither is
> what they really their preference. But I'm not
> sure we're really helping the average user if we
> direct them to a mailing list like this.
If you have health problems and want support, you
have to follow a certain protocol, go to your GP
and get a referral for a specialist. There is no
way you can consult a specialist without this
referral, so why couldn't we direct users to a forum?
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>wrote:
> Le Sat, 31 Mar 2012 09:57:48 -0400, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> a écrit
> :
>
> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
>> not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on the
>> response.
>>
>
> Well, it's part of the channel. There are ways to spot unsubscribed
> posters (there are some bugs in TB preventing that, I agree) So up to the
> list power users to handle such posters.
> On the former OOo mailing list, users were quite used to CC OP when not
> subscribed IIRC (and at this time TB was doing a good job at spotting the
> headers, ok I'll stop here no TB devs here).
>
>
>
> B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated by
>> unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe themselves
>> without assistance.
>>
>> So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
>> unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much better
>> place for users to raise such questions.
>>
>> What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list compared
>> to
>> the support forums? On some project communications we advertise both as
>> equal support avenues for users to raise problems. Is that what we should
>> be doing? In other words, what is the purpose of this list and how do we
>> make that clear to users?
>>
>
> Basically, I'm not sure that redirecting a user to another place (forum
> for example) would help, it doesn't answer the question and it adds
> frustration (he has to register the forum whereas he was expecting a direct
> answer from the list).
>
>
Honestly, I think a large percentage of posts from non-subscribers don't
even realize that they are posting to a list. They think they are sending
an email to a private support list. In other words, they think it is
similar to how they get support for many other software products. Although
we say it is a "mailing list" and recently changed that to say "public
mailing list" on the website, I don't think that sinks in.
If they post to the forums, however, this is clear. The act of
registration, of seeing the other posts already there, this sets the
context and makes it clear what the user is dealing with. With the mailing
list the user starts with zero context. It is just an email address.
> What would be the list then? A place for somehow advanced users only? ...
> Just saw your post in the mean time, so yes, that's what you want.
> Then, the solution is quite simple: forbid any non subscribed user.
> But is it really the kind of support the community wants? Some users don't
> want to use forums, does it means that they are on their own?
>
I think the users want to send to a private support address where they will
receive a personal response with no extraneous emails.
Of course, we don't have that.
So what is better for that kind of user? Fool them into thinking that
ooo-users is what they want? Or direct them to the forums? Neither is
what they really their preference. But I'm not sure we're really helping
the average user if we direct them to a mailing list like this.
> You're dealing with a low level user base with OOo. The public is not made
> of developers used to mailing lists here, they are standard or low
> knowledge users. The former list was full of duplicates, the same questions
> come again and again, but that's the job.
> We have this kind of eternal September in the forum too. We could just
> reply "RTFM" or "Google is your friend". But we know that if the user asked
> the question, that's because he hasn't RTFM or searched the web or the
> forum. So we give the reply and that's all, that's part of the job (it
> doesn't prevent to add a note inviting to search the next time).
>
>
I understand. Users don't become smarter just because they are using the
forums. But I think the technology makes it easier for them. Once they
get beyond the initial registration the experience is quite nice and hard
to mess up.
The other critical thing is that it is very hard for a single user on the
forums to make a miserable situation for all other members. There is not
the all-to-all message sending. That alone is a great improvement.
(Noting as well that Marco has an idea for how that could be done with
mailing lists as well).
> Perhaps there are good reasons from our side to be bored with such users
> but their situation is special: they got frustrated about the application
> (from their point of view) and first they are not in their normal state and
> second any reply that doesn't help will be seen as proof that the product
> is not user oriented.
>
> Hagar
>
>
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@**incubator.apache.org<oo...@incubator.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.**apache.org<oo...@incubator.apache.org>
>
>
Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
Le Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:08:39 -0700, NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net> a écrit :
> On 03/31/2012 01:40 PM, Hagar Delest wrote:
>> ... On the former OOo
>> mailing list, users were quite used to CC OP when not subscribed IIRC
>
> Sorry, but you'd be wrong Hagar... the OOo list (user and discuss) is
> full of worthless to-and-fro electrons about 'good ways' if any, to
> reliably spot 'Moderated' posts. You should know that as you've posted
> on the OOo list (and thanks for doing so) for a few years. Could it be
> that you just popped in when a forum user needed added help?
I may be wrong but my feeling was that in the end, the filter trick was quite used.
And no, there was no preference about help given, I replied only for trivial questions that had already a good fix in the forum or the need of screenshots, especially for the spell check tutorial.
> And there is the key... "(he has to register the forum whereas he was
> expecting a direct answer from the list)". So after all the wasted time,
> effort, patience of OOo responders attempting to sort out the
> subscribe/unsubscribe issue, it still comes down to: it's perfectly OK
> to have the requirement for posters to register (subscribe) to the
> forum, but hey, anyone can post to the user lists without ever subscribing.
That's a choice, that's all. We could have allowed guest posts in the forum, it would have been a real mess then, that's why it is not allowed.
If you allow un-subscribed messages to the list, then be prepared to answer (and tag) them. Else, just make clear that's impossible.
>> What would be the list then? A place for somehow advanced users only?
>
> What is the forum then: A place for advanced users only?
Ah, good point, had never thought about that. Then, yes, we have made that choice. And the result is a quite nice place, without the noise we can find on a ML. Look at the topics, they are all linked to a relevant question. Plenty of them are duplicates of course but the reply is always neat: one post is enough to point to the relevant fix. If additional comments needed, others can contribute. But there are not tons of mail coming.
>> But is it really the kind of support the community wants? Some
>
> Yes IMO. Why is it good for the gander but not the goose?
Agreed.
>> users don't want to use forums, does it means that they are on their
>> own? You're dealing with a low level user base with OOo. The public
>
> No, idealy means that the "user" will need to do exactly the same as
> when they wish to ask a question on your forum; subscribe/register
> before doing so. If a 'user' doesn't wish to use forums, then they are
> very welcome on the lists, providing that they understand what the list
> is, and subscribe before posting.
Agreed. I think that there should be a small wiki page explaining low level users what is a mailing list, that messages are public and indexed by search engines. Don't know if there is already something like that (similar to what can be found on netiquette).
> Really? You started posting on the OOo list in 2009... the bulk of posts
> you made start& continue with links/references to the forums. That is
> quite OK& I very much appreciate your contribution& excellent advise.
> However I'd have to look real hard to find any of your posts to an
> 'unsubscribed' or 'Moderated' user on the OOo user list.
> So in all fairness, I do not think that you've delt with the
> 'unsubscribed' OOo list user supporters that became *highly frustrated*
> with the subscribe/unsubscribe issue.
Indeed, I've learned about the moderated header rather late. I remember from the date I set up filters in TB to have CC the OP when non subscribed. So I may have missed all of them before and also after the bug appeared (I discovered it only few days ago, as you may have noticed from my mail in another topic in this list). So I may have participated to frustration of non subscribed users. Since I rarely replied to the mailing list, I never questioned myself about the seemingly disappearance of the non subscribed users according to the TB filter. My bad.
Hagar
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net>.
On 03/31/2012 01:40 PM, Hagar Delest wrote:
> Le Sat, 31 Mar 2012 09:57:48 -0400, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> a
> écrit :
>> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list,
>> he is not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly
>> copied on the response.
>
> Well, it's part of the channel. There are ways to spot unsubscribed
> posters (there are some bugs in TB preventing that, I agree) So up to
> the list power users to handle such posters. On the former OOo
> mailing list, users were quite used to CC OP when not subscribed IIRC
Sorry, but you'd be wrong Hagar... the OOo list (user and discuss) is
full of worthless to-and-fro electrons about 'good ways' if any, to
reliably spot 'Moderated' posts. You should know that as you've posted
on the OOo list (and thanks for doing so) for a few years. Could it be
that you just popped in when a forum user needed added help?
> (and at this time TB was doing a good job at spotting the headers, ok
> I'll stop here no TB devs here).
Again there was quite a bit of disussion regarding that issue as well.
It was only when TB allowed filtering on headers that the situation
improved (briefly) for those TB/SeaMonkey users. However, it was still
hit & miss a some users knew how to apply the filters, most did not.
Even back as far as 2005 headers containd a dual 'Delivered-To' header.
And in 2009 I pursued the issue on the Mozilla bug:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16913#c101
Also see:
<http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.openoffice.questions/202093>
for an example thread on the subject.
>
>
>> B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated
>> by unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe
>> themselves without assistance.
@ Rob: I suspect that the majority of those "unrelated questions and
answers" will subside with valid subscribed posters/readers.
>>
>> So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
>> unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much
>> better place for users to raise such questions.
>>
>> What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list
>> compared to the support forums? On some project communications we
>> advertise both as equal support avenues for users to raise
>> problems. Is that what we should be doing? In other words, what
>> is the purpose of this list and how do we make that clear to
>> users?
>
> Basically, I'm not sure that redirecting a user to another place
> (forum for example) would help, it doesn't answer the question and it
> adds frustration (he has to register the forum whereas he was
> expecting a direct answer from the list).
And there is the key... "(he has to register the forum whereas he was
expecting a direct answer from the list)". So after all the wasted time,
effort, patience of OOo responders attempting to sort out the
subscribe/unsubscribe issue, it still comes down to: it's perfectly OK
to have the requirement for posters to register (subscribe) to the
forum, but hey, anyone can post to the user lists without ever subscribing.
>
> What would be the list then? A place for somehow advanced users only?
What is the forum then: A place for advanced users only?
> ... Just saw your post in the mean time, so yes, that's what you
> want. Then, the solution is quite simple: forbid any non subscribed
> user.
Agreed.
> But is it really the kind of support the community wants? Some
Yes IMO. Why is it good for the gander but not the goose?
> users don't want to use forums, does it means that they are on their
> own? You're dealing with a low level user base with OOo. The public
No, idealy means that the "user" will need to do exactly the same as
when they wish to ask a question on your forum; subscribe/register
before doing so. If a 'user' doesn't wish to use forums, then they are
very welcome on the lists, providing that they understand what the list
is, and subscribe before posting.
> is not made of developers used to mailing lists here, they are
> standard or low knowledge users. The former list was full of
> duplicates, the same questions come again and again, but that's the
> job.
Really? You started posting on the OOo list in 2009... the bulk of posts
you made start & continue with links/references to the forums. That is
quite OK & I very much appreciate your contribution & excellent advise.
However I'd have to look real hard to find any of your posts to an
'unsubscribed' or 'Moderated' user on the OOo user list.
So in all fairness, I do not think that you've delt with the
'unsubscribed' OOo list user supporters that became *highly frustrated*
with the subscribe/unsubscribe issue.
...
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Ian <ia...@gmail.com>.
Sent from my iPhone
On 31 Mar 2012, at 21:40, Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net> wrote:
> Le Sat, 31 Mar 2012 09:57:48 -0400, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> a écrit :
>> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
>> not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on the
>> response.
>
> Well, it's part of the channel. There are ways to spot unsubscribed posters (there are some bugs in TB preventing that, I agree) So up to the list power users to handle such posters.
> On the former OOo mailing list, users were quite used to CC OP when not subscribed IIRC (and at this time TB was doing a good job at spotting the headers, ok I'll stop here no TB devs here).
>
>
>> B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated by
>> unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe themselves
>> without assistance.
>>
>> So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
>> unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much better
>> place for users to raise such questions.
>>
>> What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list compared to
>> the support forums? On some project communications we advertise both as
>> equal support avenues for users to raise problems. Is that what we should
>> be doing? In other words, what is the purpose of this list and how do we
>> make that clear to users?
>
> Basically, I'm not sure that redirecting a user to another place (forum for example) would help, it doesn't answer the question and it adds frustration (he has to register the forum whereas he was expecting a direct answer from the list).
>
> What would be the list then? A place for somehow advanced users only? ... Just saw your post in the mean time, so yes, that's what you want.
> Then, the solution is quite simple: forbid any non subscribed user.
> But is it really the kind of support the community wants? Some users don't want to use forums, does it means that they are on their own?
> You're dealing with a low level user base with OOo. The public is not made of developers used to mailing lists here, they are standard or low knowledge users. The former list was full of duplicates, the same questions come again and again, but that's the job.
> We have this kind of eternal September in the forum too. We could just reply "RTFM" or "Google is your friend". But we know that if the user asked the question, that's because he hasn't RTFM or searched the web or the forum. So we give the reply and that's all, that's part of the job (it doesn't prevent to add a note inviting to search the next time).
>
> Perhaps there are good reasons from our side to be bored with such users but their situation is special: they got frustrated about the application (from their point of view) and first they are not in their normal state and second any reply that doesn't help will be seen as proof that the product is not user oriented.
>
> Hagar
>
>
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
Le Sat, 31 Mar 2012 09:57:48 -0400, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> a écrit :
> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
> not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on the
> response.
Well, it's part of the channel. There are ways to spot unsubscribed posters (there are some bugs in TB preventing that, I agree) So up to the list power users to handle such posters.
On the former OOo mailing list, users were quite used to CC OP when not subscribed IIRC (and at this time TB was doing a good job at spotting the headers, ok I'll stop here no TB devs here).
> B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated by
> unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe themselves
> without assistance.
>
> So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
> unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much better
> place for users to raise such questions.
>
> What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list compared to
> the support forums? On some project communications we advertise both as
> equal support avenues for users to raise problems. Is that what we should
> be doing? In other words, what is the purpose of this list and how do we
> make that clear to users?
Basically, I'm not sure that redirecting a user to another place (forum for example) would help, it doesn't answer the question and it adds frustration (he has to register the forum whereas he was expecting a direct answer from the list).
What would be the list then? A place for somehow advanced users only? ... Just saw your post in the mean time, so yes, that's what you want.
Then, the solution is quite simple: forbid any non subscribed user.
But is it really the kind of support the community wants? Some users don't want to use forums, does it means that they are on their own?
You're dealing with a low level user base with OOo. The public is not made of developers used to mailing lists here, they are standard or low knowledge users. The former list was full of duplicates, the same questions come again and again, but that's the job.
We have this kind of eternal September in the forum too. We could just reply "RTFM" or "Google is your friend". But we know that if the user asked the question, that's because he hasn't RTFM or searched the web or the forum. So we give the reply and that's all, that's part of the job (it doesn't prevent to add a note inviting to search the next time).
Perhaps there are good reasons from our side to be bored with such users but their situation is special: they got frustrated about the application (from their point of view) and first they are not in their normal state and second any reply that doesn't help will be seen as proof that the product is not user oriented.
Hagar
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net>.
On 04/01/2012 05:22 AM, Regina Henschel wrote:
> Hi,
> NoOp schrieb:
...
>> The moderated messages on this list provide two 'Delivered-To:' headers:
>> Delivered-To: mailing list ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>> Delivered-To: moderator for ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> So until that bug is resolved (or the list software puts the moderator
>> header before the mailing list header), the Mozilla users will need to
>> go back to examining each header individually.
>
> I use Seamonkey, which is related to Thunderbird. I look for the text
> "For additional commands, e-mail" in the body. That catches moderated
> posts, because those have no footer. ( I'm not sure about it, but I
> notice it in that way.) Some others are caught too, but you need not
> examine _each_ header.
>
> Kind regards
> Regina
Hi Regina,
I use SeaMonkey as well:
Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:11.0) Gecko/20120312
Firefox/11.0 SeaMonkey/2.8
- the code is the same code Thunderbird uses.
If you are referring to the signature from the OOo user list:
> To unsubscribe send email to users-unsubscribe@openoffice.org
> For additional commands send email to sympa@openoffice.org
> with Subject: help
note that that this list doesn't use the same/similar. Also, the OOo
lists were 'hit-and-miss'; some posts didn't have the sig (unsubscribed
user or not), others did. So (IMO) that was/is an unreliable filter/flag.
Example: one of my posts to a moderated email (I responded because it
had '[moderated]' in the subject:
<http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.openoffice.questions/206621>
[School District - Licencing] was Re: [moderated]
There was no 'For additional commands send email' added to that post,
and I was very much subscribed. I also found that adding the following
(or similar) to any message that I cc'ed to an unsubscriber seemed to
help the poster understand that they had posted to a public mailing list:
====
Note: you have been cc'd on this response as you posted to an
OpenOffice.org mailing list. Please reply only to users <at> openoffice.org
Additional information regarding this public mailing list is available
here: http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html
====
another:
You have been cc'd on this reply as you have posted
to an open OpenOffice.org (OOo) mailng list. For further information
regarding OOo mailing lists, please see:
http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html
Please reply *only* to the list at users@openoffice.org
====
There were a few added variations that included how to read reponses on
the list archive, or gmane.org. I've lost my reponse template, so I
can't find added examples just now. The info was added to encourage the
unsub to reply back to the list rather than to me personally. That way
others could continue assisting if my reponse didn't work.
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Regina Henschel <rb...@t-online.de>.
Hi,
NoOp schrieb:
> On 03/31/2012 08:50 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
>> At 16:15 31/03/2012 +0100, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> And I've not found a way on the new list of seeing who's subscribed,
>>> and who not.
>>
>> Look for the header:
>> Delivered-To: moderator for ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> I trust this helps.
>>
>> Brian Barker
>
> Brian, there is an issue with Mozilla users (Thunderbird and SeaMonkey)
> and duplicate header filters:
>
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678322
> [Filters not working for headers that can appear more than once (except
> Received: header. if Received:, multiple headers are processed as
> expected))]
>
> The moderated messages on this list provide two 'Delivered-To:' headers:
> Delivered-To: mailing list ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Delivered-To: moderator for ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>
> So until that bug is resolved (or the list software puts the moderator
> header before the mailing list header), the Mozilla users will need to
> go back to examining each header individually.
I use Seamonkey, which is related to Thunderbird. I look for the text
"For additional commands, e-mail" in the body. That catches moderated
posts, because those have no footer. ( I'm not sure about it, but I
notice it in that way.) Some others are caught too, but you need not
examine _each_ header.
Kind regards
Regina
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 6:21 PM, NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 03/31/2012 08:50 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
> > At 16:15 31/03/2012 +0100, Mike Scott wrote:
> >>And I've not found a way on the new list of seeing who's subscribed,
> >>and who not.
> >
> > Look for the header:
> > Delivered-To: moderator for ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> >
> > I trust this helps.
> >
> > Brian Barker
>
> Brian, there is an issue with Mozilla users (Thunderbird and SeaMonkey)
> and duplicate header filters:
>
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678322
> [Filters not working for headers that can appear more than once (except
> Received: header. if Received:, multiple headers are processed as
> expected))]
>
> The moderated messages on this list provide two 'Delivered-To:' headers:
> Delivered-To: mailing list ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Delivered-To: moderator for ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>
> So until that bug is resolved (or the list software puts the moderator
> header before the mailing list header), the Mozilla users will need to
> go back to examining each header individually.
>
> Opera users have a similar issue: if you add the 'Delivered-To:' header,
> only the first 'Delivered-To:' (Delivered-To: mailing list
> ooo-users@incubator.apache.org) is displayed in the header view.
>
>
Gmail has a similar issue. It can only filter on the first Delivered-To
header.
> So we're back to asking each user (or at least those using Mozilla
> and/or Opera) to examine each full header to determine if the poster is
> subscribed or not.
>
> A few years ago, on the OOo list I proposed having the list software (or
> moderator) add a '[Moderated]' tag in the subject header. Pretty much
> every newsreader and email client can filter by Subject. A adding the
> '[Moderated]' tag would eliminate the need to examine (or filter)
> headers. Unfortunately, that suggested ended up in the dev/null bucket:
>
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=6286
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=6286#c24
>
>
>
Well, we have different software now. The old infrastructure was SYMPA
mailing list server. At Apache we're using ezmlm. I'm not sure if the
capabilities include doing what you describe, but it is worth checking.
-Rob
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>
>
Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Mike Scott <mi...@scottsonline.org.uk>.
On 31/03/12 23:21, NoOp wrote:
> On 03/31/2012 08:50 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
>> At 16:15 31/03/2012 +0100, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> And I've not found a way on the new list of seeing who's subscribed,
>>> and who not.
>>
>> Look for the header:
>> Delivered-To: moderator for ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> I trust this helps.
>>
>> Brian Barker
>
> Brian, there is an issue with Mozilla users (Thunderbird and SeaMonkey)
> and duplicate header filters:
>
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678322
> [Filters not working for headers that can appear more than once (except
> Received: header. if Received:, multiple headers are processed as
> expected))]
>
> The moderated messages on this list provide two 'Delivered-To:' headers:
> Delivered-To: mailing list ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Delivered-To: moderator for ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>
> So until that bug is resolved (or the list software puts the moderator
> header before the mailing list header), the Mozilla users will need to
> go back to examining each header individually.
So /that's/ why the filter didn't work. Thought it was my usual finger
trouble.
Nice idea while it lasted :-) Maybe it's time to move on from TB.
--
Mike Scott
Harlow, Essex, England
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net>.
On 03/31/2012 08:50 AM, Brian Barker wrote:
> At 16:15 31/03/2012 +0100, Mike Scott wrote:
>>And I've not found a way on the new list of seeing who's subscribed,
>>and who not.
>
> Look for the header:
> Delivered-To: moderator for ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>
> I trust this helps.
>
> Brian Barker
Brian, there is an issue with Mozilla users (Thunderbird and SeaMonkey)
and duplicate header filters:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678322
[Filters not working for headers that can appear more than once (except
Received: header. if Received:, multiple headers are processed as
expected))]
The moderated messages on this list provide two 'Delivered-To:' headers:
Delivered-To: mailing list ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Delivered-To: moderator for ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
So until that bug is resolved (or the list software puts the moderator
header before the mailing list header), the Mozilla users will need to
go back to examining each header individually.
Opera users have a similar issue: if you add the 'Delivered-To:' header,
only the first 'Delivered-To:' (Delivered-To: mailing list
ooo-users@incubator.apache.org) is displayed in the header view.
So we're back to asking each user (or at least those using Mozilla
and/or Opera) to examine each full header to determine if the poster is
subscribed or not.
A few years ago, on the OOo list I proposed having the list software (or
moderator) add a '[Moderated]' tag in the subject header. Pretty much
every newsreader and email client can filter by Subject. A adding the
'[Moderated]' tag would eliminate the need to examine (or filter)
headers. Unfortunately, that suggested ended up in the dev/null bucket:
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=6286
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=6286#c24
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Mike Scott <mi...@scottsonline.org.uk>.
On 31/03/12 16:50, Brian Barker wrote:
> At 16:15 31/03/2012 +0100, Mike Scott wrote:
>> And I've not found a way on the new list of seeing who's subscribed,
>> and who not.
>
> Look for the header:
> Delivered-To: moderator for ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
>
> I trust this helps.
OK, thanks.
BTW I think our ideas differ on usefulness of auto-responders. I've just
penned a response for up-thread, but saved it while I think more. For
one thing, I'm wondering if it's appropriate to continue a thread on a
subject that's been bashed about N times before with no clear outcome.
--
Mike Scott
Harlow, Essex, England
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your
Product]
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 16:15 31/03/2012 +0100, Mike Scott wrote:
>And I've not found a way on the new list of seeing who's subscribed,
>and who not.
Look for the header:
Delivered-To: moderator for ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
I trust this helps.
Brian Barker
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Mike Scott <mi...@scottsonline.org.uk>.
On 31/03/12 14:57, Rob Weir wrote:
...
> However, I think a user that is in this state is not best served by sending
> a note to this list.
>
> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
> not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on the
> response.
Which brings us back the point I've just read on this list (sorry,
forget who) that it probably is a bad idea to routinely copy a poster
when emailing the list -- yet an unsubscribed poster will then miss his
answer(s). And I've not found a way on the new list of seeing who's
subscribed, and who not. It's squaring the circle, and can be resolved
(IMO) only by blocking unsubbed posters, or an automated system that
let's them know what's happening.
>
> B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated by
> unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe themselves
> without assistance.
>
> So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
> unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much better
> place for users to raise such questions.
But given that "clueless noobies" can find the list, how would they
instead be redirected to a forum, where I agree they might be better
served? Reading ability seems anything but a strong point for some, and
if people are in an emotional state /before/ they look for AOO support,
they're the more likely to miss advice on how best to get the help they
need.
That said, a ranting, raving and rude exposition of one's problem is
never a good way to garner support, in any arena. One might expect that
to be realized.
>
> What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list compared to
> the support forums? On some project communications we advertise both as
> equal support avenues for users to raise problems. Is that what we should
> be doing? In other words, what is the purpose of this list and how do we
> make that clear to users?
[deleted my fresh diatribe about forums. It's all been said before.]
More constructively, is there any way to arrange a gateway between list
and forum, as for usenet? Then you'd get the best of both worlds.
--
Mike Scott
Harlow, Essex, England
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net>.
On 04/01/2012 02:48 AM, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Hello Rob Weir,
>
> Am 2012-03-31 09:57:48, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
>> The parent post was not sent by a list subscriber. Apache lists
>> are configured to allow anyone to post, including
>> non-subscribers. If someone is not a subscriber their posts are
>> held for moderation. If they are not spam, I let the post
>> through. This is true, even if the post is rude. (But if it
>> included a lot of swearing I would not let it through).
>
> And what about uses adding HUGE attachmenst of several MBytes to
> there posts?
>
> On the OpenOffice List I was bombed arround 40 or 50 times with
> Mails of 4-8 MByte in size and I received the messages on my
> cellphone
Oh please. I count a total of 9 post attachments from 2005 to 2011 on
the OOo user list that are over 1MB in size. If you had any multiples
it was due to some 'helpful' list person that responded with the
original attachment included. Example:
<http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.openoffice.questions/214256>
>
> If I am right, and I have already gotten such monster mails on
> the <apache.org> lists, every one can bomb the whole lists whith
> such crap, instead of using "pastebin" or other free public file
> services..
>
> Reals, I hate such users. I have to pay 1 Euro/MByte if I am
> outside of the UMTS network and it is definitively not funny.
So find a better email/nntp client that allows you to download and
review only the headers + msg size prior to downloading.
In most cases I found/find OOo list attachments very helpful in
assisting the user.
>
> Such mails should be blocked in ANY case
Again, use an email/nntp client that can be configured to read
headers/size before downloading. If that doesn't work, then don't read
the list when you are in situations where you can't control the download.
...
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 5:48 AM, Michelle Konzack <
linux4michelle@tamay-dogan.net> wrote:
> Hello Rob Weir,
>
> Am 2012-03-31 09:57:48, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> > The parent post was not sent by a list subscriber. Apache lists are
> > configured to allow anyone to post, including non-subscribers. If
> someone
> > is not a subscriber their posts are held for moderation. If they are not
> > spam, I let the post through. This is true, even if the post is rude.
> > (But if it included a lot of swearing I would not let it through).
>
> And what about uses adding HUGE attachmenst of several MBytes to there
> posts?
>
> On the OpenOffice List I was bombed arround 40 or 50 times with Mails of
> 4-8 MByte in size and I received the messages on my cellphone.
>
> If I am right, and I have already gotten such monster mails on the
> <apache.org> lists, every one can bomb the whole lists whith such crap,
> instead of using "pastebin" or other free public file services..
>
> Reals, I hate such users. I have to pay 1 Euro/MByte if I am outside of
> the UMTS network and it is definitively not funny.
>
> Such mails should be blocked in ANY case
>
>
I believe they are banned on most Apache lists. Except for patches
submitted on the dev lists we don't really see many file attachments. Some
even say we ban too much.
> Now, let's look at it from the user's perspective, and have some sympathy.
>
> Absolutely NOT.
>
>
Please?
> > Their first choice was not to send a note to this list. Their post comes
> > at the end of a long chain of failures and frustrations, being bounced
> > around by Dell and Amazon, not figuring out OpenOffice, probably not
> > finding a good answer searching Google or on our website.
>
> Is the bouncing of Dell and Amazon the fault of LibreOffice?
>
>
It is not a question about blame. Remember, even an articulate user who
understands how lists work and can fully explain their question could still
have been responsible for causing the problem they are seeing in the
OpenOffice configuration.
> > A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
> > not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on
> the
> > response.
>
> If he does not get an response, why does he post?
>
>
Good question. I don't know where these users are coming from and how they
were directed to the list. The most obvious path would be the
www.openoffice.org homepage, but the "get help" link takes them here:
http://www.openoffice.org/support/
But that entry for the Users List clearly directs them to subscribe, even
makes it easy for them. And it does have an easy link for them to post
without subscribing.
So I assume there is a link someplace on the web that encourages users to
send posts to this list without subscribing. Of course, if we can find it
we can fix it ;-)
> > B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated by
> > unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe themselves
> > without assistance.
>
> He should make a driver-license or a weapon-license for the Internet :-P
>
>
There will always be a percentage of users who are total novices. Everyone
has to start someplace. I don't think we (the Apache OpenOffice project)
can avoid their needs entirely. After all, the new users of today is the
power user (and recommender) of the program tomorrow. The real question
is: how do we (the Apache OpenOffice project) best handle support for this
user segment? Mailing list? Forums? Something else?
> > So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
> > unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much better
> > place for users to raise such questions.
>
> Right, they should post on Web-Forums and not bother mailinglists
>
> > -Rob
>
> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
> Michelle Konzack
>
> --
> ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ######################
> Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux
> Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing
> <http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/>
>
> itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4michelle@jabber.ccc.de
> Owner Michelle Konzack
>
> Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575
> 77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947
> Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France)
>
> USt-ID: DE 278 049 239
>
> Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
>
Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by kw...@gmail.com.
Dear moderator
I have tried to unsubscribe to no avail.
HHHEEEELLLPPP ...........
Powered by Telkomsel BlackBerry®
-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle Konzack <li...@tamay-dogan.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 11:48:06
To: <oo...@incubator.apache.org>
Reply-To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Hello Rob Weir,
Am 2012-03-31 09:57:48, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> The parent post was not sent by a list subscriber. Apache lists are
> configured to allow anyone to post, including non-subscribers. If someone
> is not a subscriber their posts are held for moderation. If they are not
> spam, I let the post through. This is true, even if the post is rude.
> (But if it included a lot of swearing I would not let it through).
And what about uses adding HUGE attachmenst of several MBytes to there
posts?
On the OpenOffice List I was bombed arround 40 or 50 times with Mails of
4-8 MByte in size and I received the messages on my cellphone.
If I am right, and I have already gotten such monster mails on the
<apache.org> lists, every one can bomb the whole lists whith such crap,
instead of using "pastebin" or other free public file services..
Reals, I hate such users. I have to pay 1 Euro/MByte if I am outside of
the UMTS network and it is definitively not funny.
Such mails should be blocked in ANY case
> Now, let's look at it from the user's perspective, and have some sympathy.
Absolutely NOT.
> Their first choice was not to send a note to this list. Their post comes
> at the end of a long chain of failures and frustrations, being bounced
> around by Dell and Amazon, not figuring out OpenOffice, probably not
> finding a good answer searching Google or on our website.
Is the bouncing of Dell and Amazon the fault of LibreOffice?
> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
> not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on the
> response.
If he does not get an response, why does he post?
> B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated by
> unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe themselves
> without assistance.
He should make a driver-license or a weapon-license for the Internet :-P
> So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
> unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much better
> place for users to raise such questions.
Right, they should post on Web-Forums and not bother mailinglists
> -Rob
Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
--
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ######################
Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux
Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing
<http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/>
itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4michelle@jabber.ccc.de
Owner Michelle Konzack
Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575
77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947
Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France)
USt-ID: DE 278 049 239
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Michelle Konzack <li...@tamay-dogan.net>.
Hello Rob Weir,
Am 2012-03-31 09:57:48, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> The parent post was not sent by a list subscriber. Apache lists are
> configured to allow anyone to post, including non-subscribers. If someone
> is not a subscriber their posts are held for moderation. If they are not
> spam, I let the post through. This is true, even if the post is rude.
> (But if it included a lot of swearing I would not let it through).
And what about uses adding HUGE attachmenst of several MBytes to there
posts?
On the OpenOffice List I was bombed arround 40 or 50 times with Mails of
4-8 MByte in size and I received the messages on my cellphone.
If I am right, and I have already gotten such monster mails on the
<apache.org> lists, every one can bomb the whole lists whith such crap,
instead of using "pastebin" or other free public file services..
Reals, I hate such users. I have to pay 1 Euro/MByte if I am outside of
the UMTS network and it is definitively not funny.
Such mails should be blocked in ANY case
> Now, let's look at it from the user's perspective, and have some sympathy.
Absolutely NOT.
> Their first choice was not to send a note to this list. Their post comes
> at the end of a long chain of failures and frustrations, being bounced
> around by Dell and Amazon, not figuring out OpenOffice, probably not
> finding a good answer searching Google or on our website.
Is the bouncing of Dell and Amazon the fault of LibreOffice?
> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
> not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on the
> response.
If he does not get an response, why does he post?
> B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated by
> unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe themselves
> without assistance.
He should make a driver-license or a weapon-license for the Internet :-P
> So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
> unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much better
> place for users to raise such questions.
Right, they should post on Web-Forums and not bother mailinglists
> -Rob
Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
--
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ######################
Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux
Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing
<http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/>
itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4michelle@jabber.ccc.de
Owner Michelle Konzack
Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575
77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947
Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France)
USt-ID: DE 278 049 239
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:37:23 -0700
John Hart <jh...@testra.com> wrote:
> On 3/31/2012 2:32 PM, Scooter C wrote:
> > This whole discussion is off the mark!!
> > Caesar is absolutely right.
> > Computer illiterates have no business owning a computer UNLESS they
> > put forth SOME effort to learn.
> I disagree with the attitude but agree with the content of this point.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Learning on this list is NOT good for anyone.
> > We're here for a specific purpose Open Office
> > *I vote to disallow non-subscribers* for all the reasons given
> > and strongly suggest some rules be made to for dismissal of
> > disruptive list members
>
> Non subscriber posts could be moderated before going to the list and
> responses could be tagged by respondents to be sent back to non
> subscribers if they were appropriate.
The best method would be some mechanism whereby moderation was not necessary - say if a list daemon could identify that the user was not subscribed and insert an automatic Reply-to or CC/BCC. Moderation is a heavy burden to place on anyone - automation is preferable. No matter what course is taken it won't please everyone.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by "M. Fioretti" <mf...@nexaima.net>.
On Sun, April 1, 2012 9:06 pm, Mike Scott wrote:
> "corner cases" can be mighty annoying, far beyond what their
> mere numbers might suggest.
I agree. The reason why I am so quick to tell people to ignore them in
this case is that it was always so difficult to manage the basic case.
> Now that really is a sad state of affairs. I'm sorry.
thanks! Seriously!
Marco
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Mike Scott <mi...@scottsonline.org.uk>.
On 01/04/12 17:49, M. Fioretti wrote:
>
> On Sun, April 1, 2012 4:31 pm, Mike Scott wrote:
>
>> There's still those who 'bought' OOo on one of those dubious
>> websites, and been given the mail list as the "support" email address. I
>> see that as a good reason for requiring subscription.
>
> First of all, if they politely ask for help instead of demanding a refund,
> why shouldn't they get it? Secondly, IIRC, those people are MUCH less than
No reason at all. I was just thinking that they're likely to be the ones
that think this is a formal "support line", and having paid (in their
mind) for the service are more likely to be stroppy.
> those who did download the software for free from the original website,
> but will panic when subscribed to a mailing list, make everybody's life
> impossible because they can't unsubscribe etc.
>
> And in any case you will never cover all the possible cases with a bunch
> of volunteers and none or very little money for infrastructure. Just
> ignore the corner cases. Trying to deal with all the possible corner cases
> of "how to recognize unsubscribed users from email headers" is what
> paralyzed ooo-users for ten years.
No. But "corner cases" can be mighty annoying, far beyond what their
mere numbers might suggest. Although I suppose if no-one (or just one)
rose to the bait, it might help. There's a reason for the saying, "do
not feed the trolls", which I see applies here too.
....
>...... On ooo-users there were
> "volunteers" who NEVER bothered to change the subject when they answered,
> and when I explained to them how and why this was a disservice, all I got
> was insults.
Now that really is a sad state of affairs. I'm sorry.
--
Mike Scott
Harlow, Essex, England
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by "M. Fioretti" <mf...@nexaima.net>.
On Sun, April 1, 2012 4:31 pm, Mike Scott wrote:
> There's still those who 'bought' OOo on one of those dubious
> websites, and been given the mail list as the "support" email address. I
> see that as a good reason for requiring subscription.
First of all, if they politely ask for help instead of demanding a refund,
why shouldn't they get it? Secondly, IIRC, those people are MUCH less than
those who did download the software for free from the original website,
but will panic when subscribed to a mailing list, make everybody's life
impossible because they can't unsubscribe etc.
And in any case you will never cover all the possible cases with a bunch
of volunteers and none or very little money for infrastructure. Just
ignore the corner cases. Trying to deal with all the possible corner cases
of "how to recognize unsubscribed users from email headers" is what
paralyzed ooo-users for ten years.
> Why? Even JCU must realise that a box for "subject" should contain
> /something/, surely?
1) No, not at all. Not in this case, I mean. Rob explained it well at the
beginning of the thread. Open Office support is needed (also) by all the
countless people who can barely turn their computer on.
2) Such people would very often write wrong subject, e.g. "printing
problem" when it is a formatting or style problem instead. So you can't
count on the subject having anything at all to do with the actual issue
> I agree. But I also have to admit I've done it. If you're dashing off a
> quick response to an easy query, it's too easy to forget. (Sorry!)
I wasn't criticizing occasional slips. On ooo-users there were
"volunteers" who NEVER bothered to change the subject when they answered,
and when I explained to them how and why this was a disservice, all I got
was insults.
Marco
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Mike Scott <mi...@scottsonline.org.uk>.
On 01/04/12 14:17, M. Fioretti wrote:
...
>> Users [thinking[ they are posting to a private address
>
> write very big in the help pages and in the website that everything posted
> to this address stays on the internet forever, and it's not your problem
> anymore.
Hmmm. There's still those who 'bought' OOo on one of those dubious
websites, and been given the mail list as the "support" email address. I
see that as a good reason for requiring subscription.
...
> If the archives don't look categorized and/or aren't easy to search it is
> mainly for two reasons:
>
> 1) people fight to death on top vs bottom posting, but none of them ever
> cares to TRIM useless text before replying. If they did, not only
A perennial problem, and not just here. uk.legal, for example, has posts
where you wade through screenfuls of irrelevant, multiple-depth-quoted
stuff to find the single-line followup at the bottom.
> top-vs-bottom posting would stop being relevant in 90% of cases, but any
> search would return 10 instead of 50 results.
>
> 2) Joe Clueless User must be excused if he sends an email with an empty or
Why? Even JCU must realise that a box for "subject" should contain
/something/, surely? And a modicum of common sense would dictate that
the mere fact of sending the mail says that "Help" is implicit, so the
subject might just contain something useful instead. Maybe that's the
problem - I fear "common sense" to be in increasingly short supply, and
the list must needs cope.
> totally useless subject like "help" or "openoffice". But the volunteer who
> doesn't reply CHANGING THE SUBJECT TO SOMETHING MEANINGFUL (e.g. "how to
> create a custom paragraph style, was "Help with paragraphs") is doing a
> disservice open office, because he is filling the archives with messages
> that aren't easy to search.
I agree. But I also have to admit I've done it. If you're dashing off a
quick response to an easy query, it's too easy to forget. (Sorry!)
--
Mike Scott
Harlow, Essex, England
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by "M. Fioretti" <mf...@nexaima.net>.
On Sun, April 1, 2012 1:57 am, Rob Weir wrote:
> Is it purely skill level of the users? End user versus server products?
yes, that's the only reason we have a problem. An office suite is used by
people who only bought a computer because they can't buy typewriters
anymore.
For any other product, I'd be saying "just silently discard email from
unsubscribed users". But this is probably the first encounter of many
people with FOSS, so it's surely the skill level is much lower, but those
people can't be ignored.
> Summarizing the analysis of user support via ooo-users mailing list:
I took the liberty to rearrange your cons in another way:
> Users not receiving responses since they are often not subscribed
> Users frustrated by traffic level of list
> Users unable to unsubscribe
The above become non-issues with my autoresponder
> Users [thinking[ they are posting to a private address
write very big in the help pages and in the website that everything posted
to this address stays on the internet forever, and it's not your problem
anymore.
> Attachments not allowed
this, I confess, remains an issue I don't know how to handle. Though I've
seen it being a problem very few times.
> Not easy to search for previous issses and resolutions
> No ability to categorize issues, update useless subject lines (e.g,,
> "Help!") or mark an issue as resolved.
with the exception of the "mark as resolved" bit, these issues (IF a
mailing list is used, of course) are ONLY the fault of the well meaning,
but clueless SUBSCRIBERS who answer in the wrong way.
If the archives don't look categorized and/or aren't easy to search it is
mainly for two reasons:
1) people fight to death on top vs bottom posting, but none of them ever
cares to TRIM useless text before replying. If they did, not only
top-vs-bottom posting would stop being relevant in 90% of cases, but any
search would return 10 instead of 50 results.
2) Joe Clueless User must be excused if he sends an email with an empty or
totally useless subject like "help" or "openoffice". But the volunteer who
doesn't reply CHANGING THE SUBJECT TO SOMETHING MEANINGFUL (e.g. "how to
create a custom paragraph style, was "Help with paragraphs") is doing a
disservice open office, because he is filling the archives with messages
that aren't easy to search.
Sure, with forums categorization is (theoretically) much less manual. But
that would matter if we were discussing how to support people who ARE able
to recognize by themselves which category their question belongs to...
Marco
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Mike Scott <mi...@scottsonline.org.uk>.
On 01/04/12 00:57, Rob Weir wrote:
...
> But note that despite these limitations other Apache projects do fine with
> their existing users lists. Some are quite large. The Tomcat users list,
> for example, has over 3000 subscribers and at times has had over 4000
> posts/month:
That's a totally unfair comparison though! (Sorry to be blunt)
"Apache Tomcat is an open source software implementation of the Java
Servlet and JavaServer Pages ...." (I'd never even heard of it before).
OOo/AOO clearly has an intended rather wider and less computer-literate
user interest base. It's hardly surprising the OO list has more problems
due to unskilled users.
The question here is how to offer help /both/ to those who can barely
find the on-off switch much less describe a problem concisely, as well
as to those who are highly competent and technically skilled.
--
Mike Scott
Harlow, Essex, England
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> wrote:
> Non-subscriber posts ARE moderated.
>
> However, the moderators have limited options with regard to
> approving/rejecting posts. One can approve the message or reject it. (A
> reason for rejection can be given but I have no idea what is done with
> those.)
>
>
I assume it goes back to the sender. I've used that markup a few times,
but I've never seen what it looks like on the receiving end. Maybe worth
an experiment sometime.
> The moderator sees the message as an attachment to the moderation message.
> It is possible to reply to it in addition-to/instead-of allowing the post
> to go to the list.
>
> The problem is that all (the few, the proud, the irritable) moderators
> here receive the same message for moderation approval/rejection. The
> moderators can copy each other via the moderator address so the others know
> the disposition, but it gets ungainly quickly.
>
> In moderating here, my job is done if I see that the post has already
> reached the list. If not, I check the submitted message mainly for spam to
> discard, including the occasional LinkedIn connection request to the list.
> I will not know whether another moderator has done the same thing already.
>
>
I do similar, but I don't check to see if the post is already on the list.
if you approve an already-approved message it is a no-op. So I find it is
faster to approve than to check the list. Your mileage may vary.
> If the message is related to OpenOffice-lineage support, I approve it,
> allowing peer support to do the rest.
>
> As this list becomes a bigger target for support requests/grievances/etc,
> human moderation will break down under scale.
>
>
Summarizing the analysis of user support via ooo-users mailing list:
Pro:
Some users prefer email
Some volunteers prefer email
Does not require registration
Con:
Users not receiving responses since they are often not subscribed
Users posting personal information because they think they are posting to a
private address
Users frustrated by traffic level of list
Users unable to unsubscribe
Attachments not allowed
Not easy to search for previous issses and resolutions
No ability to categorize issues, update useless subject lines (e.g,,
"Help!") or mark an issue as resolved.
But note that despite these limitations other Apache projects do fine with
their existing users lists. Some are quite large. The Tomcat users list,
for example, has over 3000 subscribers and at times has had over 4000
posts/month:
http://markmail.org/search/+list:org.apache.tomcat.users
How do they manage it? Is it purely skill level of the users? End user
versus server products?
-Rob
- Dennis
>
> PS: As the moderator of an unrelated private list, I regularly reply to
> non-spam requests that I am not approving. I copy the other moderators of
> that list so they know and so they can provide more-specific responses if
> they wish. However, this is a case where someone is using the wrong list
> entirely and they need to know that there are other places to post their
> problems/concerns. That is, they need to come to a list like this one or
> find a forum.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Hart [mailto:jhart@testra.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 15:37
> To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
>
> [ ... ]
>
> Non subscriber posts could be moderated before going to the list and
> responses could be tagged by respondents to be sent back to non
> subscribers if they were appropriate.
>
> [ ... ]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ooo-users-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
RE: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Non-subscriber posts ARE moderated.
However, the moderators have limited options with regard to approving/rejecting posts. One can approve the message or reject it. (A reason for rejection can be given but I have no idea what is done with those.)
The moderator sees the message as an attachment to the moderation message. It is possible to reply to it in addition-to/instead-of allowing the post to go to the list.
The problem is that all (the few, the proud, the irritable) moderators here receive the same message for moderation approval/rejection. The moderators can copy each other via the moderator address so the others know the disposition, but it gets ungainly quickly.
In moderating here, my job is done if I see that the post has already reached the list. If not, I check the submitted message mainly for spam to discard, including the occasional LinkedIn connection request to the list. I will not know whether another moderator has done the same thing already.
If the message is related to OpenOffice-lineage support, I approve it, allowing peer support to do the rest.
As this list becomes a bigger target for support requests/grievances/etc, human moderation will break down under scale.
- Dennis
PS: As the moderator of an unrelated private list, I regularly reply to non-spam requests that I am not approving. I copy the other moderators of that list so they know and so they can provide more-specific responses if they wish. However, this is a case where someone is using the wrong list entirely and they need to know that there are other places to post their problems/concerns. That is, they need to come to a list like this one or find a forum.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hart [mailto:jhart@testra.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 15:37
To: ooo-users@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
[ ... ]
Non subscriber posts could be moderated before going to the list and
responses could be tagged by respondents to be sent back to non
subscribers if they were appropriate.
[ ... ]
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by John Hart <jh...@testra.com>.
On 3/31/2012 2:32 PM, Scooter C wrote:
> This whole discussion is off the mark!!
> Caesar is absolutely right.
> Computer illiterates have no business owning a computer UNLESS they
> put forth SOME effort to learn.
I disagree with the attitude but agree with the content of this point.
>
>
> Learning on this list is NOT good for anyone.
> We're here for a specific purpose Open Office
> *I vote to disallow non-subscribers* for all the reasons given
> and strongly suggest some rules be made to for dismissal of
> disruptive list members
Non subscriber posts could be moderated before going to the list and
responses could be tagged by respondents to be sent back to non
subscribers if they were appropriate.
>
>
> Hopefully this will be my last rant.
> Take Care.
> Scooter
> College Park, MD USA
jrh
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
Le Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:32:51 -0400, Scooter C <sc...@scootersdesk.com> a écrit :
> This whole discussion is off the mark!!
> Caesar is absolutely right.
<snip>
>> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Caesar<ca...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>> It's unbelievable. The top posters are the worst offenders.
You made my day!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Hagar
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Scooter C <sc...@scootersdesk.com>.
This whole discussion is off the mark!!
Caesar is absolutely right.
Computer illiterates have no business owning a computer UNLESS they put
forth SOME effort to learn.
Learning on this list is NOT good for anyone.
We're here for a specific purpose Open Office
*I vote to disallow non-subscribers* for all the reasons given
and strongly suggest some rules be made to for dismissal of
disruptive list members
Hopefully this will be my last rant.
Take Care.
Scooter
College Park, MD USA
Rob Weir wrote on 3/31/2012 9:57 AM:
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Caesar<ca...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 19:51:42 -0400, Stacie Jones
>> <qu...@gmail.com> wrote Re Re: I Hate Your Product:
>>
>>> Is it a prerequisite that everyone on this list have absolutely no manners
>>> whatsoever? I'm so sick of getting these nasty messages.
>> I'm glad you brought this up. This list server seems to have the
>> highest percentage of computer-clueless people I have seen anywhere.
>> It's unbelievable. The top posters are the worst offenders.
>>
>>
> A quick perspective from a list moderator.
>
> The parent post was not sent by a list subscriber. Apache lists are
> configured to allow anyone to post, including non-subscribers. If someone
> is not a subscriber their posts are held for moderation. If they are not
> spam, I let the post through. This is true, even if the post is rude.
> (But if it included a lot of swearing I would not let it through).
>
> Now, let's look at it from the user's perspective, and have some sympathy.
> Their first choice was not to send a note to this list. Their post comes
> at the end of a long chain of failures and frustrations, being bounced
> around by Dell and Amazon, not figuring out OpenOffice, probably not
> finding a good answer searching Google or on our website.
>
> However, I think a user that is in this state is not best served by sending
> a note to this list.
>
> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
> not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on the
> response.
>
> B) If the user does subscribe, they will likely soon be frustrated by
> unrelated questions and answers, but be unable to unsubscribe themselves
> without assistance.
>
> So we all want users to be able to resolve their issues, without
> unnecessary complications. I think the support forums are a much better
> place for users to raise such questions.
>
> What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list compared to
> the support forums? On some project communications we advertise both as
> equal support avenues for users to raise problems. Is that what we should
> be doing? In other words, what is the purpose of this list and how do we
> make that clear to users?
>
> -Rob
>
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Caesar <ca...@hiwaay.net>.
On Tue, 03 Apr 2012 09:38:54 +0100, Mike Scott
<mi...@scottsonline.org.uk> wrote Re Re: A moderator's view of this
list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]:
>On 03/04/12 10:08, Michael Adams wrote:
>...
>
>> Personally i detest using forums. As an individual i am basically lazy
>
>+1
>
>But it's not really laziness - it's yet another username (or was it an
>email address this time, and which one?) and yet another password to
>remember before one can ask for help. And yet another website that works
>differently to all the others. Or maybe being overwhelmed counts as
>laziness?
I prefer the "newsstand" analogy. Which is more convenient: going to
several different newsstands every morning to buy several different
newspapers, or having them all delivered to you mailbox?
I prefer the mailbox.
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Mike Scott <mi...@scottsonline.org.uk>.
On 03/04/12 10:08, Michael Adams wrote:
...
> Personally i detest using forums. As an individual i am basically lazy
+1
But it's not really laziness - it's yet another username (or was it an
email address this time, and which one?) and yet another password to
remember before one can ask for help. And yet another website that works
differently to all the others. Or maybe being overwhelmed counts as
laziness?
> and a push method works for me much better than a pull one. Both have
> there place. Many find email a good way to contribute back to the
And I'll ask again, as there was no response before. Is there any
logical reason why the two should be gatewayed? List and forum that is.
Naively, ISTM if the database of submissions is properly organized, 'the
forum' or 'the list' is only the interface to a common dataset.
>
--
Mike Scott
Harlow, Essex, England
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Michael Adams <li...@clear.net.nz>.
On Sunday 01 April 2012 01:57, Rob Weir wrote:
> What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list
> compared to the support forums? On some project communications we
> advertise both as equal support avenues for users to raise
> problems. Is that what we should be doing? In other words, what
> is the purpose of this list and how do we make that clear to users?
Personally i detest using forums. As an individual i am basically lazy
and a push method works for me much better than a pull one. Both have
there place. Many find email a good way to contribute back to the
community with the same support option available to us if needed. If
the mailing list is only retained for Beta Testing purposes i would
still be subscribed. It remains a useful method for squashing less
complex issues, "where has 'File - Page Setup' gone", without the
requirement to appeal direct to developers. The RFE/ bug reporting
channel can then be sufficiently complex to prevent many of the
nuisance reports.
Take note Joomla! community!
--
Michael
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your
Product]
Posted by Brian Barker <b....@btinternet.com>.
At 11:28 31/03/2012 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>The autoresponder thing sounds interesting. So you don't allow any
>non-subscriber traffic. Any posts from non-subscribers get an
>automatic response that presumably outlines their support options,
>tells them they would need to subscribe first if they want to post
>to the ooo-users list, maybe gives some hints for writing useful
>support request posts, etc.
>
>I think that would be an improvement. What do others think?
Aaargh, no!
Users with problems send their request. The automatic response
doesn't answer their question, so they give up. Or they read it and
subscribe. They get no reply (the response has gone into their junk)
so they give up. Or they see that response but are still surprised
that its doesn't answer their query. They give up. Or they might
conceivably confirm their subscription and send their query yet
again. Then they see list messages and send many messages saying
"Why are you writing to me about this? Please stop" or "Sorry, I
can't help you: I'm just trying to ask a question." There then
follow messages from "experts" about how silly it was to shout or not
to quote version numbers or operating system. Oh, and a long
interaction (also shouted, of course) about how to get off this
<expletive deleted> list.
Once they are gone, it leaves the list to discuss more important
topics, such as top-posting, anti-Microsoft propaganda, how
non-subscribers should be dealt with ...
;^)
Brian Barker
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by "M. Fioretti" <mf...@nexaima.net>.
On Sat, March 31, 2012 5:28 pm, Rob Weir wrote:
> But for the people having problems, like with the previous thread, I don't
> think it is a religious issue.
of course it isn't. I agree! I was deliberately tackling a slightly
different issue: there are people who are willing to be support
volunteers, but only if they can work exclusively through email. Whether
AOO needs such people is another issue. My real point is not "ooo MUST do
support only/also via mailing lists". It is "IF support must be provided
(also) through mailing lists, please don't repeat certain errors".
> The autoresponder thing sounds interesting. So you don't allow any
> non-suscriber traffic. Any posts from non-susbcribers get an automatic
> response....
NO! Of course you can do that too, but: what I have been suggesting is
something else, much more flexible, without any manual reposting or
guesswork. I explained it several times since 2002 on the OOo lists, the
last one in this December 2011 thread (in which also Mike took part):
http://www.mail-archive.com/users@openoffice.org/msg126205.html
so I won't start from scratch now. Please take the time to read my
explanations in that short thread, and if after that there's some doubt,
don't hesitate to ask here for further clarifications.
HTH,
Marco
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Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 10:11 AM, M. Fioretti <mf...@nexaima.net> wrote:
>
> On Sat, March 31, 2012 3:57 pm, Rob Weir wrote:
>
> > What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list compared
> > to the support forums? On some project communications we advertise both
> > as equal support avenues for users to raise problems.
>
> Rob,
>
> email vs forums is an almost religious issue. IMO, one if not THE purpose
> of ooo mailing list is to provide users with support ALSO from those
> volunteers who will never ever use forums because they like email better
> and since they aren't paid they're free to say no to forums, period.
>
>
But for the people having problems, like with the previous thread, I don't
think it is a religious issue. They are not expressing a strong preference
for the list. They are just looking for help and for unknown reasons they
ended up here. But they could just as well have ended up elsewhere. For
example, we get user support questions to ooo-dev as quite a few to the
bugzilla admin address (!).
> This is just my opinion, feel free to ignore it, it's no problem, but for
> heaven's sake:
>
> > However, I think a user that is in this state is not best served by
> > sending a note to this list.
> > A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
> > not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on
> the
> > response.
>
> please do ban immediately from this list whoever tries to propose or
> practice even here the "sending again to unsubscribed user" idiocy that
> plagued the OOo lists for a decade, details here for those who ignore the
> background:
>
>
> http://stop.zona-m.net/2010/11/a-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-libreoffice/
>
> The Apache foundation should have inside enough skills and/or money to
> implement the autoresponder trick I've explained in that post and, many
> times before that, on the OOo lists.
>
>
The autoresponder thing sounds interesting. So you don't allow any
non-suscriber traffic. Any posts from non-susbcribers get an automatic
response that presumably outlines their support options, tells them they
would need to subscribe first if they want to post to the ooo-users list,
maybe gives some hints for writing useful support request posts, etc.
I think that would be an improvement. What do others think?
-Rob
> If nobody wants to provide support by email, and everybody wants to use
> the forum, no problem, close the list and go for the forum. But if support
> via mailing list is needed hire any decent programmer for a day or two to
> implement the autoresponder I proposed, and then forget the whole issue.
>
> HTH,
> Marco
>
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>
>
Re: A moderator's view of this list [was: Re: I Hate Your Product]
Posted by "M. Fioretti" <mf...@nexaima.net>.
On Sat, March 31, 2012 3:57 pm, Rob Weir wrote:
> What do you think? What is the purpose of this ooo-users list compared
> to the support forums? On some project communications we advertise both
> as equal support avenues for users to raise problems.
Rob,
email vs forums is an almost religious issue. IMO, one if not THE purpose
of ooo mailing list is to provide users with support ALSO from those
volunteers who will never ever use forums because they like email better
and since they aren't paid they're free to say no to forums, period.
This is just my opinion, feel free to ignore it, it's no problem, but for
heaven's sake:
> However, I think a user that is in this state is not best served by
> sending a note to this list.
> A) First, since the original poster is not subscribed to the list, he is
> not receiving any of the responses, unless he was explicitly copied on the
> response.
please do ban immediately from this list whoever tries to propose or
practice even here the "sending again to unsubscribed user" idiocy that
plagued the OOo lists for a decade, details here for those who ignore the
background:
http://stop.zona-m.net/2010/11/a-proposal-for-effective-volunteer-friendly-user-support-in-libreoffice/
The Apache foundation should have inside enough skills and/or money to
implement the autoresponder trick I've explained in that post and, many
times before that, on the OOo lists.
If nobody wants to provide support by email, and everybody wants to use
the forum, no problem, close the list and go for the forum. But if support
via mailing list is needed hire any decent programmer for a day or two to
implement the autoresponder I proposed, and then forget the whole issue.
HTH,
Marco
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