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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org> on 2004/08/17 19:28:54 UTC

Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Dear Incubator, dear Board,

The Lenya commiters, the Incubator PMC and our mentors (Stefano, Nicola) 
have voted unanimously to request for graduation of the Lenya project to 
become a Apache Top Level project.

Summary thread is here:

http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=general@incubator.apache.org&by=thread&from=837762

The current status of the Lenya project can be found here:

   http://incubator.apache.org/projects/lenya.html

The Lenya web site:

   http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya

The resolution:

http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/cocoon-lenya/proposal.pmc.txt?view=auto

WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
open-source software related to content management, for
distribution at no charge to the public.

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Lenya PMC", be and hereby
is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it
further

RESOLVED, that the Lenya PMC be and hereby is responsible for
the creation and maintenance of software related to
content management, based on software licensed to the Foundation;
and be it further

RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Lenya" be and
hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at
the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the
Lenya PMC, and to have primary responsibility for management of
the projects within the scope of responsibility of the Lenya
PMC; and be it further

RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
Lenya PMC:

    * Edith Chevier (edith@apache.org)
    * Dale Christ (bigdog@apache.org)
    * Christian Egli (egli@apache.org)
    * Andreas Hartmann (andreas@apache.org)
    * Rolf Kulemann (roku@apache.org)
    * Gregor J. Rothfuss (gregor@apache.org)
    * Thorsten Scherler (thorsten@apache.org)
    * Michael Wechner (michi@apache.org)


NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that

Rolf Kulemann

   be and hereby is appointed to the office of Vice President, Lenya,
to serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until
death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or
until a successor is appointed; and be it further

RESOLVED, that the initial Lenya PMC be and hereby is tasked
with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open
development and increased participation in the Lenya Project;
and be it further

RESOLVED, that the initial Lenya PMC be and hereby is tasked
with the migration and rationalization of the incubating PMC
Lenya project; and be it further

RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to the incubating
Lenya project encumbered upon the incubator PMC
be hereafter discharged.



The charter:

http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/cocoon-lenya/charter.txt?view=auto

The Apache Lenya Project is a community project
developing open source content management solutions.

With strong foundations in XML-based server-side web application 
frameworks, like Apache Cocoon, the Apache Lenya Project consists of a 
group of people that share common values on collaboration-intensive
and community-based quality open source development.

The Apache Lenya Project is proud to share these values with its parent 
organization: The Apache Software Foundation.

The mission of the Apache Lenya Project project is:
- to provide commercial-quality, high-performance, well-tested,
standards-based XML editing environments that are developed in an open 
and collaborative fashion.
- to add user-oriented functionality on top of the Cocoon framework and 
other Apache projects.
- to advance the state of the art of content management and structured 
text editing.


-gregor


-- 
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc.  -   Open Source Content Management   -   Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com                   http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com                       gregor@apache.org

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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 10:03, Greg Stein wrote:
> I've put this onto the agenda.
> 
> One comment though: where the heck did the text for the resolution come
> from? This is like the third or fourth TLP resolution lately that I've
> seen which does NOT put "Apache" into the name of the PMC. I'm wondering
> how the heck that got started. Every project needs to be named using the
> "Apache Foo" pattern.
> 
> If there's a template somewhere, then it needs to be fixed. I've had to
> update every incoming resolution, and it's getting a bit annoying :-)

The template is just fine and can be found at 
http://incubator.apache.org/resolution.html ?

We simply did it wrong and are sorry for any inconvenience :)

Maybe it would make sense to emphasize the "Apache foo" pattern on the
template page somehow.

I fixed the "Apache Lenya" resolution in SVN at
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/lenya/trunk/proposal.pmc.txt

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 12:54, thorsten wrote:
> Greg Stein wrote:
> > I've put this onto the agenda.
> > 
> > One comment though: where the heck did the text for the resolution come
> > from? This is like the third or fourth TLP resolution lately that I've
> > seen which does NOT put "Apache" into the name of the PMC. I'm wondering
> > how the heck that got started. Every project needs to be named using the
> > "Apache Foo" pattern.
> > 
> > If there's a template somewhere, then it needs to be fixed. I've had to
> > update every incoming resolution, and it's getting a bit annoying :-)
> > 
> 
> My fault, I copied the one from forrest but dunnow where there have it 
> from. Sorry.

Thanks anyway that you did the work!

Antonio once said to me when I _accidentally_ deleted a library from
Cocoon CVS:

"Only people that do nothing never make mistakes!" :-D

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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Re: template for TLP-proposal (Was: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP)

Posted by "Scherler, Thorsten" <th...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> thorsten wrote:
> 
>>Greg Stein wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Oh, no need to apologize! I just was hoping to track it down to fix it for
>>>future submissions. Search/replace isn't that terrible, but after a
>>>while... ya know :-)
>>
>>I will ask David, he will know where there have it from. ;-) Maybe there 
>>is a faulty template lurking around.
> 
> 
> No i don't know. Nicola Ken might, as he committed
> the initial file. Ours started at
> http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/forrest/branches/copyless/TLP-proposal.txt?root=Apache-SVN
> The log message reveals no clue of its origin.
> 


:)

I knew you would listen ;-)

Thanks for the clarifications.

Maybe Nicola can tell us. ;-)

thorsten


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template for TLP-proposal (Was: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP)

Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
thorsten wrote:
> Greg Stein wrote:
> 
> > Oh, no need to apologize! I just was hoping to track it down to fix it for
> > future submissions. Search/replace isn't that terrible, but after a
> > while... ya know :-)
> 
> I will ask David, he will know where there have it from. ;-) Maybe there 
> is a faulty template lurking around.

No i don't know. Nicola Ken might, as he committed
the initial file. Ours started at
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/forrest/branches/copyless/TLP-proposal.txt?root=Apache-SVN
The log message reveals no clue of its origin.

-- 
David Crossley


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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Greg Stein wrote:

> Oh, no need to apologize! I just was hoping to track it down to fix it for
> future submissions. Search/replace isn't that terrible, but after a
> while... ya know :-)
> 

I will ask David, he will know where there have it from. ;-) Maybe there 
is a faulty template lurking around.

> In any case, the Board passed the resolution :-)
> 

:)

Nice, cheers for "search/replace" action. ;-) ...and of course the 
passing of the resolution.

> I'll be sending out a summary of our meeting which will also mention it,
> but figured that I'd let you guys know sooner rather than later :-)
> 


Nice, cheers!

thorsten


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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
> Greg Stein wrote:
>
>>
>> In any case, the Board passed the resolution :-)

This is Good News, congratulations to the Lenya team!
-Bertrand


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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Greg Stein wrote:

>
>In any case, the Board passed the resolution :-)
>  
>

cool :-)

Thanks

Michi

>I'll be sending out a summary of our meeting which will also mention it,
>but figured that I'd let you guys know sooner rather than later :-)
>
>Cheers,
>-g
>
>  
>


-- 
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc.  -   Open Source Content Management   -   Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com              http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com                        michi@apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Greg Stein wrote:

>
>In any case, the Board passed the resolution :-)
>  
>

cool :-)

Thanks

Michi

>I'll be sending out a summary of our meeting which will also mention it,
>but figured that I'd let you guys know sooner rather than later :-)
>
>Cheers,
>-g
>
>  
>


-- 
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc.  -   Open Source Content Management   -   Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com              http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com                        michi@apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 09:05:33AM +0200, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 08:28, Greg Stein wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 12:54:55PM +0200, thorsten wrote:
> > > Greg Stein wrote:
> ...
> > In any case, the Board passed the resolution :-)
> > 
> > I'll be sending out a summary of our meeting which will also mention it,
> > but figured that I'd let you guys know sooner rather than later :-)
> 
> Very nice. Thank you. 
> 
> Can we move on with work caused by the graduation e.g. SVN repo
> location, mailinglists etc, or should we wait for the report?

Feel free to start. I've cc'd infrastructure so they have the heads up.

Infra: fyi: just Lenya. no other TLPs this month.

Cheers,
-g

-- 
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/

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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 08:28, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 12:54:55PM +0200, thorsten wrote:
> > Greg Stein wrote:
...
> 
> In any case, the Board passed the resolution :-)
> 
> I'll be sending out a summary of our meeting which will also mention it,
> but figured that I'd let you guys know sooner rather than later :-)

Very nice. Thank you. 

Can we move on with work caused by the graduation e.g. SVN repo
location, mailinglists etc, or should we wait for the report?

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 12:54:55PM +0200, thorsten wrote:
> Greg Stein wrote:
> >I've put this onto the agenda.
> >
> >One comment though: where the heck did the text for the resolution come
> >from? This is like the third or fourth TLP resolution lately that I've
> >seen which does NOT put "Apache" into the name of the PMC. I'm wondering
> >how the heck that got started. Every project needs to be named using the
> >"Apache Foo" pattern.
> >
> >If there's a template somewhere, then it needs to be fixed. I've had to
> >update every incoming resolution, and it's getting a bit annoying :-)
> >
> 
> My fault, I copied the one from forrest but dunnow where there have it 
> from. Sorry.

Oh, no need to apologize! I just was hoping to track it down to fix it for
future submissions. Search/replace isn't that terrible, but after a
while... ya know :-)

In any case, the Board passed the resolution :-)

I'll be sending out a summary of our meeting which will also mention it,
but figured that I'd let you guys know sooner rather than later :-)

Cheers,
-g

-- 
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/

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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Greg Stein wrote:
> I've put this onto the agenda.
> 
> One comment though: where the heck did the text for the resolution come
> from? This is like the third or fourth TLP resolution lately that I've
> seen which does NOT put "Apache" into the name of the PMC. I'm wondering
> how the heck that got started. Every project needs to be named using the
> "Apache Foo" pattern.
> 
> If there's a template somewhere, then it needs to be fixed. I've had to
> update every incoming resolution, and it's getting a bit annoying :-)
> 

My fault, I copied the one from forrest but dunnow where there have it 
from. Sorry.

spot
thorsten

> Cheers,
> -g
> 
> On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 07:28:54PM +0200, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> 
>>Dear Incubator, dear Board,
>>
>>The Lenya commiters, the Incubator PMC and our mentors (Stefano, Nicola) 
>>have voted unanimously to request for graduation of the Lenya project to 
>>become a Apache Top Level project.
>>
>>Summary thread is here:
>>
>>http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=general@incubator.apache.org&by=thread&from=837762
>>
>>The current status of the Lenya project can be found here:
>>
>>  http://incubator.apache.org/projects/lenya.html
>>
>>The Lenya web site:
>>
>>  http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
>>
>>The resolution:
>>
>>http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/cocoon-lenya/proposal.pmc.txt?view=auto
>>
>>WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
>>interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
>>Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
>>Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
>>open-source software related to content management, for
>>distribution at no charge to the public.
>>
>>NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
>>Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Lenya PMC", be and hereby
>>is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it
>>further
>>
>>RESOLVED, that the Lenya PMC be and hereby is responsible for
>>the creation and maintenance of software related to
>>content management, based on software licensed to the Foundation;
>>and be it further
>>
>>RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Lenya" be and
>>hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at
>>the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the
>>Lenya PMC, and to have primary responsibility for management of
>>the projects within the scope of responsibility of the Lenya
>>PMC; and be it further
>>
>>RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
>>hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
>>Lenya PMC:
>>
>>   * Edith Chevier (edith@apache.org)
>>   * Dale Christ (bigdog@apache.org)
>>   * Christian Egli (egli@apache.org)
>>   * Andreas Hartmann (andreas@apache.org)
>>   * Rolf Kulemann (roku@apache.org)
>>   * Gregor J. Rothfuss (gregor@apache.org)
>>   * Thorsten Scherler (thorsten@apache.org)
>>   * Michael Wechner (michi@apache.org)
>>
>>
>>NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that
>>
>>Rolf Kulemann
>>
>>  be and hereby is appointed to the office of Vice President, Lenya,
>>to serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
>>Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until
>>death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or
>>until a successor is appointed; and be it further
>>
>>RESOLVED, that the initial Lenya PMC be and hereby is tasked
>>with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open
>>development and increased participation in the Lenya Project;
>>and be it further
>>
>>RESOLVED, that the initial Lenya PMC be and hereby is tasked
>>with the migration and rationalization of the incubating PMC
>>Lenya project; and be it further
>>
>>RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to the incubating
>>Lenya project encumbered upon the incubator PMC
>>be hereafter discharged.
>>
>>
>>
>>The charter:
>>
>>http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/cocoon-lenya/charter.txt?view=auto
>>
>>The Apache Lenya Project is a community project
>>developing open source content management solutions.
>>
>>With strong foundations in XML-based server-side web application 
>>frameworks, like Apache Cocoon, the Apache Lenya Project consists of a 
>>group of people that share common values on collaboration-intensive
>>and community-based quality open source development.
>>
>>The Apache Lenya Project is proud to share these values with its parent 
>>organization: The Apache Software Foundation.
>>
>>The mission of the Apache Lenya Project project is:
>>- to provide commercial-quality, high-performance, well-tested,
>>standards-based XML editing environments that are developed in an open 
>>and collaborative fashion.
>>- to add user-oriented functionality on top of the Cocoon framework and 
>>other Apache projects.
>>- to advance the state of the art of content management and structured 
>>text editing.
>>
>>
>>-gregor
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>Gregor J. Rothfuss
>>Wyona Inc.  -   Open Source Content Management   -   Apache Lenya
>>http://wyona.com                   http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
>>gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com                       gregor@apache.org
>>
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> 
> 


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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by "Scherler, Thorsten" <th...@apache.org>.
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 17:32, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> 
>>Greg Stein wrote:
>>
>>
>>>where the heck did the text for the resolution come from?
>>>This is like the third or fourth TLP resolution lately that
>>>I've seen which does NOT put "Apache" into the name of the
>>>PMC. I'm wondering how the heck that got started.  Every
>>>project needs to be named using the "Apache Foo" pattern.
>>
> ....
> 
>>Perhaps it is time that we did have a template.  :-)  We can also add to the
>>template some guidelines.
> 
> 
> Big +1.
> 

Yeah!

+1 would make life easier. ;-)

King regards
thorsten


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RE: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 17:32, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Greg Stein wrote:
> 
> > where the heck did the text for the resolution come from?
> > This is like the third or fourth TLP resolution lately that
> > I've seen which does NOT put "Apache" into the name of the
> > PMC. I'm wondering how the heck that got started.  Every
> > project needs to be named using the "Apache Foo" pattern.
> 
...
> 
> Perhaps it is time that we did have a template.  :-)  We can also add to the
> template some guidelines.

Big +1.

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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RE: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Greg Stein wrote:

> where the heck did the text for the resolution come from?
> This is like the third or fourth TLP resolution lately that
> I've seen which does NOT put "Apache" into the name of the
> PMC. I'm wondering how the heck that got started.  Every
> project needs to be named using the "Apache Foo" pattern.

My guess, since there isn't a posted template (the one that Rolf just
mentioned is not a template, but the Incubator's own resolution), is that
projects are cribbing from one another.  :-)  And hence replicating the same
errors.

Perhaps it is time that we did have a template.  :-)  We can also add to the
template some guidelines.

	--- Noel


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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
I've put this onto the agenda.

One comment though: where the heck did the text for the resolution come
from? This is like the third or fourth TLP resolution lately that I've
seen which does NOT put "Apache" into the name of the PMC. I'm wondering
how the heck that got started. Every project needs to be named using the
"Apache Foo" pattern.

If there's a template somewhere, then it needs to be fixed. I've had to
update every incoming resolution, and it's getting a bit annoying :-)

Cheers,
-g

On Tue, Aug 17, 2004 at 07:28:54PM +0200, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Dear Incubator, dear Board,
> 
> The Lenya commiters, the Incubator PMC and our mentors (Stefano, Nicola) 
> have voted unanimously to request for graduation of the Lenya project to 
> become a Apache Top Level project.
> 
> Summary thread is here:
> 
> http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=general@incubator.apache.org&by=thread&from=837762
> 
> The current status of the Lenya project can be found here:
> 
>   http://incubator.apache.org/projects/lenya.html
> 
> The Lenya web site:
> 
>   http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
> 
> The resolution:
> 
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/cocoon-lenya/proposal.pmc.txt?view=auto
> 
> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
> interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
> Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
> Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
> open-source software related to content management, for
> distribution at no charge to the public.
> 
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
> Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Lenya PMC", be and hereby
> is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it
> further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the Lenya PMC be and hereby is responsible for
> the creation and maintenance of software related to
> content management, based on software licensed to the Foundation;
> and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Lenya" be and
> hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at
> the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the
> Lenya PMC, and to have primary responsibility for management of
> the projects within the scope of responsibility of the Lenya
> PMC; and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
> hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
> Lenya PMC:
> 
>    * Edith Chevier (edith@apache.org)
>    * Dale Christ (bigdog@apache.org)
>    * Christian Egli (egli@apache.org)
>    * Andreas Hartmann (andreas@apache.org)
>    * Rolf Kulemann (roku@apache.org)
>    * Gregor J. Rothfuss (gregor@apache.org)
>    * Thorsten Scherler (thorsten@apache.org)
>    * Michael Wechner (michi@apache.org)
> 
> 
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that
> 
> Rolf Kulemann
> 
>   be and hereby is appointed to the office of Vice President, Lenya,
> to serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
> Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until
> death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or
> until a successor is appointed; and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the initial Lenya PMC be and hereby is tasked
> with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open
> development and increased participation in the Lenya Project;
> and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the initial Lenya PMC be and hereby is tasked
> with the migration and rationalization of the incubating PMC
> Lenya project; and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to the incubating
> Lenya project encumbered upon the incubator PMC
> be hereafter discharged.
> 
> 
> 
> The charter:
> 
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/cocoon-lenya/charter.txt?view=auto
> 
> The Apache Lenya Project is a community project
> developing open source content management solutions.
> 
> With strong foundations in XML-based server-side web application 
> frameworks, like Apache Cocoon, the Apache Lenya Project consists of a 
> group of people that share common values on collaboration-intensive
> and community-based quality open source development.
> 
> The Apache Lenya Project is proud to share these values with its parent 
> organization: The Apache Software Foundation.
> 
> The mission of the Apache Lenya Project project is:
> - to provide commercial-quality, high-performance, well-tested,
> standards-based XML editing environments that are developed in an open 
> and collaborative fashion.
> - to add user-oriented functionality on top of the Cocoon framework and 
> other Apache projects.
> - to advance the state of the art of content management and structured 
> text editing.
> 
> 
> -gregor
> 
> 
> -- 
> Gregor J. Rothfuss
> Wyona Inc.  -   Open Source Content Management   -   Apache Lenya
> http://wyona.com                   http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
> gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com                       gregor@apache.org
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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-- 
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/

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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 2004-08-17 at 19:28, Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Dear Incubator, dear Board,
...

Thanks Gregor :)

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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Re: Request for graduation and Lenya TLP

Posted by "Scherler, Thorsten" <th...@apache.org>.
Cheers gregor,

for doing the request!

King regards
thorsten

Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Dear Incubator, dear Board,
> 
> The Lenya commiters, the Incubator PMC and our mentors (Stefano, Nicola) 
> have voted unanimously to request for graduation of the Lenya project to 
> become a Apache Top Level project.
> 
> Summary thread is here:
> 
> http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=general@incubator.apache.org&by=thread&from=837762 
> 
> 
> The current status of the Lenya project can be found here:
> 
>   http://incubator.apache.org/projects/lenya.html
> 
> The Lenya web site:
> 
>   http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
> 
> The resolution:
> 
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/cocoon-lenya/proposal.pmc.txt?view=auto
> 
> WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
> interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
> Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
> Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
> open-source software related to content management, for
> distribution at no charge to the public.
> 
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
> Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Lenya PMC", be and hereby
> is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it
> further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the Lenya PMC be and hereby is responsible for
> the creation and maintenance of software related to
> content management, based on software licensed to the Foundation;
> and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President, Lenya" be and
> hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at
> the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the
> Lenya PMC, and to have primary responsibility for management of
> the projects within the scope of responsibility of the Lenya
> PMC; and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
> hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
> Lenya PMC:
> 
>    * Edith Chevier (edith@apache.org)
>    * Dale Christ (bigdog@apache.org)
>    * Christian Egli (egli@apache.org)
>    * Andreas Hartmann (andreas@apache.org)
>    * Rolf Kulemann (roku@apache.org)
>    * Gregor J. Rothfuss (gregor@apache.org)
>    * Thorsten Scherler (thorsten@apache.org)
>    * Michael Wechner (michi@apache.org)
> 
> 
> NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that
> 
> Rolf Kulemann
> 
>   be and hereby is appointed to the office of Vice President, Lenya,
> to serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
> Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until
> death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or
> until a successor is appointed; and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the initial Lenya PMC be and hereby is tasked
> with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to encourage open
> development and increased participation in the Lenya Project;
> and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that the initial Lenya PMC be and hereby is tasked
> with the migration and rationalization of the incubating PMC
> Lenya project; and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to the incubating
> Lenya project encumbered upon the incubator PMC
> be hereafter discharged.
> 
> 
> 
> The charter:
> 
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/cocoon-lenya/charter.txt?view=auto
> 
> The Apache Lenya Project is a community project
> developing open source content management solutions.
> 
> With strong foundations in XML-based server-side web application 
> frameworks, like Apache Cocoon, the Apache Lenya Project consists of a 
> group of people that share common values on collaboration-intensive
> and community-based quality open source development.
> 
> The Apache Lenya Project is proud to share these values with its parent 
> organization: The Apache Software Foundation.
> 
> The mission of the Apache Lenya Project project is:
> - to provide commercial-quality, high-performance, well-tested,
> standards-based XML editing environments that are developed in an open 
> and collaborative fashion.
> - to add user-oriented functionality on top of the Cocoon framework and 
> other Apache projects.
> - to advance the state of the art of content management and structured 
> text editing.
> 
> 
> -gregor
> 
> 


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 02:51, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
> 
> >> Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> >> further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> >> experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
> > 
> > I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a 
> > "reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time 
> > constraints. I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the 
> > community aspects. 
> 
> Same here.

Stefano, I added u to the PMC proposal, which can be found at 
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/lenya/trunk/proposal.pmc.txt

You and Steven should make sure to be subscribed to the (P)PMC list if u
are not yet.

It would also be nice if serious, non-technical, and sensitive
discussions are done on (P)PMC list in order to protect our community
(from old ghosts etc).

Thanks for joining the Lenya PMC and for your past and future help.

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:

>> Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
>> further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
>> experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
> 
> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a 
> "reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time 
> constraints. I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the 
> community aspects. 

Same here.

> I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps 
> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec 
> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has 
> the final say about this.

Yep, time will tell.

-- 
Stefano.

Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:

>> Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
>> further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
>> experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
> 
> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a 
> "reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time 
> constraints. I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the 
> community aspects. 

Same here.

> I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps 
> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec 
> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has 
> the final say about this.

Yep, time will tell.

-- 
Stefano.

Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 16:22, Steven Noels wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 15:45, Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> 
> > OK. No problem. I think in the best interest, I step back. I will
> > contribute in lenya as I can from my Cocoon committer access. ;-)
> 
> Oh no - you're reading me wrong. You should stay! 

+1

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Steven Noels wrote:

>  technical commit access doesn't fuel functional or community 
> interest. Oh well - we all learn every day, don't we?


... or as Beck is saying in his song from "Eternal Sunshine of a 
spotless mind": Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometimes :-)

>
> </Steven>



-- 
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc.  -   Open Source Content Management   -   Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com              http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com                        michi@apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 18:39, Michael Wechner wrote:

> My opinion is that Apache committers from other projects should
> be treated as any other people, meaning if for instance a Cocoon
> committer is helping on Lenya then he/she shouldn't become an official 
> Lenya committer automatically, but rather should also be suggested by 
> other committers and votes should be casted.

You're even more severe than I am, but yes, I fully agree. ;-)

> This of course doesn't mean that Cocoon or other Apache committers 
> which have access to the Lenya repository should stop helping doing 
> things. They are welcome and I hope many of them will become official
> Lenya committers in the future.

My line of thought started from the current situation with the Cocoon 
committers having access to Lenya, a situation I've been awkward with 
after it became clear that Lenya wouldn't emerge inside Cocoon as a 
subproject. It seems to me that such tricks don't really pay off in the 
longer term: technical commit access doesn't fuel functional or 
community interest. Oh well - we all learn every day, don't we?

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Steven Noels wrote:

>
>   then you should be on the PMC. What I hate is seeing people being 
> added just to reach some required threshold 


is this the case right now? (I won't comment about the eons ago, because 
I did so quite often in the past already ;-) Let's look forward.

> - but I love cross-pollination and -participation.


me too

>
> Are we understanding each other now?


I am not sure to be honest.

My opinion is that Apache committers from other projects should
be treated as any other people, meaning if for instance a Cocoon
committer is helping on Lenya then he/she shouldn't become an official 
Lenya committer automatically, but rather should also be suggested by 
other committers and votes should be casted.

This of course doesn't mean that Cocoon or other Apache committers which 
have access to the Lenya repository should stop helping doing things. 
They are welcome and I hope many of them will become official
Lenya committers in the future.

Michi


>
> </Steven>



-- 
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc.  -   Open Source Content Management   -   Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com              http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com                        michi@apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 15:45, Antonio Gallardo wrote:

> OK. No problem. I think in the best interest, I step back. I will
> contribute in lenya as I can from my Cocoon committer access. ;-)

Oh no - you're reading me wrong. You should stay! I was just trying to 
pinpoint the correct reasoning behind adding someone to the PMC - and 
if you say you're here to stay, then you should be on the PMC. What I 
hate is seeing people being added just to reach some required threshold 
- but I love cross-pollination and -participation.

Are we understanding each other now?

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Steven Noels dijo:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 14:51, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>
>> Any Cocoon commiter is a Lenya commiter and has therefor enough karma
>> or
>> so to be in Lenya PMC. My opinion is, if Cocoon commiters show an
>> active
>> interest in Lenya development, they should be in the Lenya PMC else
>> NOT.
>> IIRC Antonio came over from Cocoon/Forrest folks and showed appropriate
>> activity.
>
> Meeeep. Having technical commit access to one project or another
> doesn't say anything about PMC membership status, in the sense that PMC
> membership carries the responsibility of providing regular oversight
> over the project's activities. So while 50+ Cocoon folks have technical
> commit karma to Lenya (a rule which was once established because we
> thought Lenya would become a Cocoon sub-project), Cocoon commit access
> shouldn't be considered a selection criterium for or against someone
> sitting on the Lenya PMC: actual participation in the Lenya project is.
> Which seems to be the case here with Antonio, of course, but still.


OK. No problem. I think in the best interest, I step back. I will
contribute in lenya as I can from my Cocoon committer access. ;-)

Best Regards,

Antonio Gallardo.

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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 14:51, Rolf Kulemann wrote:

> Any Cocoon commiter is a Lenya commiter and has therefor enough karma 
> or
> so to be in Lenya PMC. My opinion is, if Cocoon commiters show an 
> active
> interest in Lenya development, they should be in the Lenya PMC else 
> NOT.
> IIRC Antonio came over from Cocoon/Forrest folks and showed appropriate
> activity.

Meeeep. Having technical commit access to one project or another 
doesn't say anything about PMC membership status, in the sense that PMC 
membership carries the responsibility of providing regular oversight 
over the project's activities. So while 50+ Cocoon folks have technical 
commit karma to Lenya (a rule which was once established because we 
thought Lenya would become a Cocoon sub-project), Cocoon commit access 
shouldn't be considered a selection criterium for or against someone 
sitting on the Lenya PMC: actual participation in the Lenya project is. 
Which seems to be the case here with Antonio, of course, but still.

Let's face this: the initial list of committers for Lenya (many eons 
ago) had been overinflated with names of folks who never contributed 
visibly to the project. This eventually led to some discussion on the 
ASF-aptness of Lenya as a community, which in the end got resolved by 
adding a few really active outside committers - you shouldn't 
underestimate what you and Thorsten did in that respect. Now, the board 
feels uncomfortable about granting Lenya TLP status since few "known 
people" are involved in the PMC. I'd say this project should proceed 
swiftly, but carefully, with resolving this situation, but this 
shouldn't be done by making the same mistake again.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 13:37, Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> Rolf Kulemann dijo:
> > On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 10:06, Steven Noels wrote:
> >> On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >> > ...
> >> >>
> >> >> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to
> >> TLP
> >> >> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members
> >> >> who
> >> >> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the
> >> >> initial
> >> >> PMC.  That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
> >> >
> >> > Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
> >>
> >> Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola &
> >> Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack
> >> of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de
> >> facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were
> >> helpful.
> >>
> >> > Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> >> > further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> >> > experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
> >>
> >> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys -
> >
> > Steven, I have added you as an initial PMC member to the proposed Lenya
> > PMC, which can be seen at
> 
> Can I add myself to the proposal too? I expect to help in lenya too. ;-)

+1, but lemme say this:

Any Cocoon commiter is a Lenya commiter and has therefor enough karma or
so to be in Lenya PMC. My opinion is, if Cocoon commiters show an active
interest in Lenya development, they should be in the Lenya PMC else NOT.
IIRC Antonio came over from Cocoon/Forrest folks and showed appropriate
activity. 

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Rolf Kulemann dijo:
> On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 10:06, Steven Noels wrote:
>> On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>>
>> > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to
>> TLP
>> >> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members
>> >> who
>> >> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the
>> >> initial
>> >> PMC.  That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
>> >
>> > Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
>>
>> Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola &
>> Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack
>> of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de
>> facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were
>> helpful.
>>
>> > Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
>> > further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
>> > experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
>>
>> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys -
>
> Steven, I have added you as an initial PMC member to the proposed Lenya
> PMC, which can be seen at

Can I add myself to the proposal too? I expect to help in lenya too. ;-)

Best Regards,

Antonio Gallardo


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 10:06, Steven Noels wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > ...
> >>
> >> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
> >> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members 
> >> who
> >> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the 
> >> initial
> >> PMC.  That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
> >
> > Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
> 
> Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola & 
> Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack 
> of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de 
> facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were 
> helpful.
> 
> > Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> > further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> > experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
> 
> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - 

Steven, I have added you as an initial PMC member to the proposed Lenya
PMC, which can be seen at

http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/lenya/trunk/proposal.pmc.txt

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 10:06, Steven Noels wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > ...
> >>
> >> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
> >> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members 
> >> who
> >> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the 
> >> initial
> >> PMC.  That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
> >
> > Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
> 
> Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola & 
> Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack 
> of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de 
> facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were 
> helpful.
> 
> > Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> > further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> > experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
> 
> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - 

Steven, I have added you as an initial PMC member to the proposed Lenya
PMC, which can be seen at

http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/lenya/trunk/proposal.pmc.txt

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Scherler, Thorsten wrote:
...
>> Forrest is the classical documentation framework that is missing CMS 
>> components. Lenya could profit from integrating forrest into itself to 
>> the extense that both projects become one!
> 
> I don't think this makes sense, because Lenya is not just about
> documentation, but on content management in general. I rather think
> that Lenya and Forrest should talk about interfaces and common 
> components which would lead to consolidation

+1

If Thorsten were right, Forrest qould have been a subproject of Cocoon...

>> IMO it would be a better idea for the lenya community to apply for 
>> becoming a subproject of forrest rather than to be on their own and 
>> looking for apache known names on a initial PMC list.

-1 (from a Forrest PMC member)

Overlap and interdependency from a code point are not valid reasons for 
mixing diverse communities with different goals.

-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by thorsten <th...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Scherler, Thorsten wrote:
> 
>>
>> I see an overlap between Forrest and Lenya.
> 
> 
> 
> yes, there is overlap: Forrest could be considered a publication/publet, 
> which could be based on Lenya for instance
> 
...
> 
> I don't think this makes sense, because Lenya is not just about
> documentation, but on content management in general. I rather think
> that Lenya and Forrest should talk about interfaces and common 
> components which would lead to consolidation
> 

+1

IMO that would be the way to go. We should *really* have chat with 
forrest how we can do that. IMO you are totally right ->Lenya - forrest 
pub makes more sense. I suggested the other way round to overcome that 
"apache" known names issues (that I really do not see).

>> IMO it would be a better idea for the lenya community to apply for 
>> becoming a subproject of forrest rather than to be on their own and 
>> looking for apache known names on a initial PMC list.
> 
> 
> 
> to be honest, I don't fully understand why Lenya actually has to look 
> for apache known names. AFAIK many board members know Lenya committers, 
> the Lenya community is growing constantly, the Lenya community is 
> friendly and well-behaved, the number of people using Lenya is 
> constantly growing .... so where is the problem?
> 
> Please don't get me wrong, but I'm getting a bit tired about this FUD 
> thing or maybe I should just got to bed now ;-)
> 

:)

You are right again. This discussion about the promotion took far too 
long. The other thing is that I never have read anything about apache 
known names on PMC lists BTW!

thorsten


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Scherler, Thorsten wrote:

>
> I see an overlap between Forrest and Lenya.


yes, there is overlap: Forrest could be considered a publication/publet, 
which could be based on Lenya for instance

> Forrest is the classical documentation framework that is missing CMS 
> components. Lenya could profit from integrating forrest into itself to 
> the extense that both projects become one!


I don't think this makes sense, because Lenya is not just about
documentation, but on content management in general. I rather think
that Lenya and Forrest should talk about interfaces and common 
components which would lead to consolidation

> IMO it would be a better idea for the lenya community to apply for 
> becoming a subproject of forrest rather than to be on their own and 
> looking for apache known names on a initial PMC list.


to be honest, I don't fully understand why Lenya actually has to look 
for apache known names. AFAIK many board members know Lenya committers, 
the Lenya community is growing constantly, the Lenya community is 
friendly and well-behaved, the number of people using Lenya is 
constantly growing .... so where is the problem?

Please don't get me wrong, but I'm getting a bit tired about this FUD 
thing or maybe I should just got to bed now ;-)

Michi

>
> thorsten
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>


-- 
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc.  -   Open Source Content Management   -   Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com              http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com                        michi@apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Scherler, Thorsten wrote:

>
> I see an overlap between Forrest and Lenya.


yes, there is overlap: Forrest could be considered a publication/publet, 
which could be based on Lenya for instance

> Forrest is the classical documentation framework that is missing CMS 
> components. Lenya could profit from integrating forrest into itself to 
> the extense that both projects become one!


I don't think this makes sense, because Lenya is not just about
documentation, but on content management in general. I rather think
that Lenya and Forrest should talk about interfaces and common 
components which would lead to consolidation

> IMO it would be a better idea for the lenya community to apply for 
> becoming a subproject of forrest rather than to be on their own and 
> looking for apache known names on a initial PMC list.


to be honest, I don't fully understand why Lenya actually has to look 
for apache known names. AFAIK many board members know Lenya committers, 
the Lenya community is growing constantly, the Lenya community is 
friendly and well-behaved, the number of people using Lenya is 
constantly growing .... so where is the problem?

Please don't get me wrong, but I'm getting a bit tired about this FUD 
thing or maybe I should just got to bed now ;-)

Michi

>
> thorsten
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>


-- 
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc.  -   Open Source Content Management   -   Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com              http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com                        michi@apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by "Scherler, Thorsten" <th...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 12:29, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> 
>>> I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
>>> community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
>>> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
>>> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has
>>> the final say about this.

...
> So in my mind, the Lenya TLP is a project about Lenya, a CMS 
> product/framework, rather than a broader community of CMS-interested 
> folks @ Apache. That doesn't carry any connotation of underachievement 
> of course - just a mere reality check with the rather vague and/or 
> over-ambitious proposed mission:
> 
> RESOLVED, that the Lenya PMC be and hereby is responsible for
> the creation and maintenance of software related to content
> management, based on software licensed to the Foundation;
> 

Hi Steven, hi devs,

here my 2 cents:

I see an overlap between Forrest and Lenya. Forrest is the classical 
documentation framework that is missing CMS components. Lenya could 
profit from integrating forrest into itself to the extense that both 
projects become one! IMO it would be a better idea for the lenya 
community to apply for becoming a subproject of forrest rather than to 
be on their own and looking for apache known names on a initial PMC list.

thorsten


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 12:29, Rolf Kulemann wrote:

>> I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
>> community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
>> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
>> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin 
>> has
>> the final say about this.
>
> Interesting u say that. I also asked myself such questions. Lenya is
> indeed quite high level compared to typical ASF projects.
>
> However I found Lenya as an ASF (incubator) CMS project.....

While this might have been the initial intention when the project 
brought to Apache, I think CMS is a head with many faces, and as such 
might fail to realize cross-implementation-community-cohesiveness apart 
from standardisation of some low-level APIs (WebDAV, JCR, etc). But 
even with these APIs, there's no reasonable guarantee against "data 
hijacking", in the sense that one would be able to mix-and-match the 
different tiers of a CMS project from a pool of available 
implementations, *without* having to go through extensive refactoring 
or data migration. There's no such loose coupling between UI, 
persistence and logic in the CMS world as compared to low-level 
abstraction layers like JDBC (!), and even though many products speak 
WebDAV, much of their functionality isn't exposed or accessible through 
that interface. But I'm a nihilist rather than a marketing person, of 
course.

So in my mind, the Lenya TLP is a project about Lenya, a CMS 
product/framework, rather than a broader community of CMS-interested 
folks @ Apache. That doesn't carry any connotation of underachievement 
of course - just a mere reality check with the rather vague and/or 
over-ambitious proposed mission:

RESOLVED, that the Lenya PMC be and hereby is responsible for
the creation and maintenance of software related to content
management, based on software licensed to the Foundation;

Happily moving on from this debate, I still see a ratio of 5 out of 9 
non-independent committers on the PMC. AAMOF, IMHO there's only a few 
(2?) of the independent PMC members who are demonstrating continued 
involvement with the project. Aren't there any other candidate 
committers to be on the PMC?

Aah - a flurry of new folks being (self-)proposed on the lists. ;-)

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Rolf Kulemann wrote:

>
>  
>
>>I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the 
>>community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps 
>>are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec 
>>implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has 
>>the final say about this.
>>    
>>
>
>Interesting u say that. I also asked myself such questions. Lenya is
>indeed quite high level compared to typical ASF projects. 
>
>However I found Lenya as an ASF (incubator) CMS project.....
>  
>

Lenya is a framework at the core, whereas the publications/publets
can be considered functional apps.

On the other hand can't httpd be considered a funtional app ;-)

Michi


-- 
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc.  -   Open Source Content Management   -   Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com              http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com                        michi@apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 12:29, Rolf Kulemann wrote:

>> I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the
>> community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps
>> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec
>> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin 
>> has
>> the final say about this.
>
> Interesting u say that. I also asked myself such questions. Lenya is
> indeed quite high level compared to typical ASF projects.
>
> However I found Lenya as an ASF (incubator) CMS project.....

While this might have been the initial intention when the project 
brought to Apache, I think CMS is a head with many faces, and as such 
might fail to realize cross-implementation-community-cohesiveness apart 
from standardisation of some low-level APIs (WebDAV, JCR, etc). But 
even with these APIs, there's no reasonable guarantee against "data 
hijacking", in the sense that one would be able to mix-and-match the 
different tiers of a CMS project from a pool of available 
implementations, *without* having to go through extensive refactoring 
or data migration. There's no such loose coupling between UI, 
persistence and logic in the CMS world as compared to low-level 
abstraction layers like JDBC (!), and even though many products speak 
WebDAV, much of their functionality isn't exposed or accessible through 
that interface. But I'm a nihilist rather than a marketing person, of 
course.

So in my mind, the Lenya TLP is a project about Lenya, a CMS 
product/framework, rather than a broader community of CMS-interested 
folks @ Apache. That doesn't carry any connotation of underachievement 
of course - just a mere reality check with the rather vague and/or 
over-ambitious proposed mission:

RESOLVED, that the Lenya PMC be and hereby is responsible for
the creation and maintenance of software related to content
management, based on software licensed to the Foundation;

Happily moving on from this debate, I still see a ratio of 5 out of 9 
non-independent committers on the PMC. AAMOF, IMHO there's only a few 
(2?) of the independent PMC members who are demonstrating continued 
involvement with the project. Aren't there any other candidate 
committers to be on the PMC?

Aah - a flurry of new folks being (self-)proposed on the lists. ;-)

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 10:06, Steven Noels wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > ...
> >>
> >> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
> >> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members 
> >> who
> >> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the 
> >> initial
> >> PMC.  That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
> >
> > Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.
> 
> Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola & 
> Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack 
> of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de 
> facto" mentor. 

Uups, I forgot. Nicola is also invited to join the Lenya PMC and to help
us with "reactive" and wise contributions.

> I hope my contributions during that episode were 
> helpful.

At least that :)

> 
> > Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> > further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> > experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".
> 
> I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a 
> "reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time 
> constraints. 

Thank you very much.

> I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the 
> community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps 
> are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec 
> implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has 
> the final say about this.

Interesting u say that. I also asked myself such questions. Lenya is
indeed quite high level compared to typical ASF projects. 

However I found Lenya as an ASF (incubator) CMS project.....

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:

> On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> ...
>>
>> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
>> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members 
>> who
>> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the 
>> initial
>> PMC.  That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
>
> Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.

Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola & 
Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack 
of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de 
facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were 
helpful.

> Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".

I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a 
"reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time 
constraints. I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the 
community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps 
are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec 
implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has 
the final say about this.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


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Re: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 20 Sep 2004, at 08:57, Rolf Kulemann wrote:

> On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> ...
>>
>> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
>> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members 
>> who
>> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the 
>> initial
>> PMC.  That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.
>
> Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.

Well, IIRC, technically speaking, it actually used to be Nicola & 
Stefano, but during my late role of Cocoon PMC chair and given the lack 
of active mentoring at that time I kinda made the leap and became a "de 
facto" mentor. I hope my contributions during that episode were 
helpful.

> Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
> further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
> experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".

I'm willing to sit on the PMC if that helps you guys - perhaps in a 
"reactive" role rather than a more proactive one - due to time 
constraints. I think Lenya has been making immense progress on the 
community aspects. I'm still a bit doubtful whether "functional" apps 
are suited for ASF adoption (I have a personal preference towards spec 
implementations, libraries and frameworks), but I guess only Darwin has 
the final say about this.

</Steven>
-- 
Steven Noels                            http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML            An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at            http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org                stevenn at apache.org


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RE: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
...
> 
> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members who
> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the initial
> PMC.  That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.

Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.

Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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RE: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 18:17, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
...
> 
> My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
> status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members who
> have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the initial
> PMC.  That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.

Yes. That makes sense. Our mentors are Stefano M. and Steven N.

Stefano and Steven, would you like to accompany the Lenya project
further on as PMC members? I guess we really could need your help and
experience beside the fact that the board "is likely to recognize".

-- 
Rolf Kulemann


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RE: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Gregor,

The Board meeting is coming up this week.  I have reminded that the Lenya
request is pending.  One thing that I notice, looking at the proposed Lenya
PMC, is the lack of names that the Board is likely to recognize.  This can
be a concern because PMCs are part of the legal fabric of the Foundation,
and PMC Chairs are Corporate Officers.

My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members who
have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the initial
PMC.  That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.

	--- Noel


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RE: Request for graduation and promotion to TLP

Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Gregor,

The Board meeting is coming up this week.  I have reminded that the Lenya
request is pending.  One thing that I notice, looking at the proposed Lenya
PMC, is the lack of names that the Board is likely to recognize.  This can
be a concern because PMCs are part of the legal fabric of the Foundation,
and PMC Chairs are Corporate Officers.

My suggestion to you, and to any project that wants to graduate to TLP
status, is that you ask your Mentors or other established ASF Members who
have participated actively during Incubation to participate on the initial
PMC.  That provides an extra degree of comfort to the Board.

	--- Noel


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