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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> on 2006/03/29 23:10:59 UTC
Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Lawrence Rosen wrote:
>>Upayavira wrote:
>>
>>>But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my mind,
>>>be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but not Tomcat
>>>Probe.
>>>
>>
>>This is what I am thinking. Can any one give a more definitive opinion
>>one way or the other?
>
>
> If we filed a US registration we'd be able to answer that question
> precisely. However, in our somewhat informal state of common law trademark,
> which is all we have, it isn't clear to me what the "goods" are that are in
> association with the "Tomcat" mark. That's one other advantage of
> registration.
>
> I suggest, though, that "Tomcat Probe software" would be an infringement of
> our common law trademark in "Tomcat software." We shouldn't acquiesce in
> their use.
>
> /Larry
The Tomcat PMC has been in contact with the author of "Tomcat Probe"
and he is unwilling to change the name without an official Apache
position that this is a trademark infringement.
Where do I go to get such a statement? Is Larry's statement above it?
If it is, I am concerned about the use of the phrase "I suggest...".
IANAL. Is this just lawyer speak for "In my opinion x, but nothing is
certain unless you go to court and ask a judge."?
For the legally minded the author's position is:
<quote>
* "Tomcat Probe" is a phrase to express the very nature of the project
and not just a catchphrase. It is my interpretation that "Tomcat
Probe" qualifies as "customary description of work" and therefore does
not violate Apache License and I will stand by this until I hear an
official position of ASF on this matter.
</quote>
Finally, is this the right list to be having this discussion given
that it is publicly archived? If not, where is?
Thanks in advance for any advice on this.
Mark
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Thursday 30 March 2006 05:53, Ian Holsman wrote:
>
>>I don't think any of us in the ASF think he is a schmuck... and we
>>REALLY hope he will continue with ongoing development of his tool.
>>we just object to the name, and hope we can come to a mutually
>>acceptable solution which benefits both of us.
>
>
> If that is the position, then embrace instead of confront. So, why not suggest
> to bring it to Incubation.
The thought had crossed my mind. I want to resolve the legal position
first (happening now on legal-internal) and then make a decision about
a way forward.
Mark
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thursday 30 March 2006 05:53, Ian Holsman wrote:
> I don't think any of us in the ASF think he is a schmuck... and we
> REALLY hope he will continue with ongoing development of his tool.
> we just object to the name, and hope we can come to a mutually
> acceptable solution which benefits both of us.
If that is the position, then embrace instead of confront. So, why not suggest
to bring it to Incubation.
Cheers
Niclas
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only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
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and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Ian Holsman <li...@holsman.net>.
just a point here.
the guy has got a good tool, which may be of benefit to the community.
I don't think any of us in the ASF think he is a schmuck... and we
REALLY hope he will continue with ongoing development of his tool.
we just object to the name, and hope we can come to a mutually
acceptable solution which benefits both of us.
regards
Ian
(not a lawyer, and not speaking for the ASF in a official capacity)
On 30/03/2006, at 8:36 AM, Jesse Kuhnert wrote:
> yeah! good to see that someone is here to protect us from schmucks :)
>
> On 3/29/06, Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com > wrote:I suggest
> we take this to legal-internal.
>
> /Larry
>
> Lawrence Rosen
> Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
> Stanford University, Lecturer in Law
> 3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482
> 707-485-1242 * fax: 707-485-1243
> Author of "Open Source Licensing: Software Freedom and
> Intellectual Property Law" (Prentice Hall 2004)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Thomas [mailto: markt@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:11 PM
> To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com
> Cc: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
>
> Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> >>Upayavira wrote:
> >>
> >>>But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my
> mind,
> >>>be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but
> not Tomcat
> >>>Probe.
> >>>
> >>
> >>This is what I am thinking. Can any one give a more definitive
> opinion
> >>one way or the other?
> >
> >
> > If we filed a US registration we'd be able to answer that question
> > precisely. However, in our somewhat informal state of common law
> trademark,
> > which is all we have, it isn't clear to me what the "goods" are
> that are
> in
> > association with the "Tomcat" mark. That's one other advantage of
> > registration.
> >
> > I suggest, though, that "Tomcat Probe software" would be an
> infringement
> of
> > our common law trademark in "Tomcat software." We shouldn't
> acquiesce in
> > their use.
> >
> > /Larry
>
> The Tomcat PMC has been in contact with the author of "Tomcat Probe"
> and he is unwilling to change the name without an official Apache
> position that this is a trademark infringement.
>
> Where do I go to get such a statement? Is Larry's statement above it?
> If it is, I am concerned about the use of the phrase "I suggest...".
> IANAL. Is this just lawyer speak for "In my opinion x, but nothing is
> certain unless you go to court and ask a judge."?
>
> For the legally minded the author's position is:
> <quote>
> * "Tomcat Probe" is a phrase to express the very nature of the project
> and not just a catchphrase. It is my interpretation that "Tomcat
> Probe" qualifies as "customary description of work" and therefore does
> not violate Apache License and I will stand by this until I hear an
> official position of ASF on this matter.
> </quote>
>
> Finally, is this the right list to be having this discussion given
> that it is publicly archived? If not, where is?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice on this.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
> only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
> constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
> and policies of the ASF. See < http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
> official ASF policies and documents.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
> only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
> constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
> and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
> official ASF policies and documents.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jesse Kuhnert
> Tacos/Tapestry, team member/developer
>
> Open source based consulting work centered around dojo/tapestry/
> tacos/hivemind. http://opennotion.com
--
Ian Holsman ++61-3-9877-0909
Some days we are the flies; some days we are the windscreens
---------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
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Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com>.
yeah! good to see that someone is here to protect us from schmucks :)
On 3/29/06, Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com> wrote:
>
> I suggest we take this to legal-internal.
>
> /Larry
>
> Lawrence Rosen
> Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
> Stanford University, Lecturer in Law
> 3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482
> 707-485-1242 * fax: 707-485-1243
> Author of "Open Source Licensing: Software Freedom and
> Intellectual Property Law" (Prentice Hall 2004)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Thomas [mailto:markt@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:11 PM
> To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com
> Cc: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Subject: Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
>
> Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> >>Upayavira wrote:
> >>
> >>>But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my mind,
> >>>be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but not
> Tomcat
> >>>Probe.
> >>>
> >>
> >>This is what I am thinking. Can any one give a more definitive opinion
> >>one way or the other?
> >
> >
> > If we filed a US registration we'd be able to answer that question
> > precisely. However, in our somewhat informal state of common law
> trademark,
> > which is all we have, it isn't clear to me what the "goods" are that are
> in
> > association with the "Tomcat" mark. That's one other advantage of
> > registration.
> >
> > I suggest, though, that "Tomcat Probe software" would be an infringement
> of
> > our common law trademark in "Tomcat software." We shouldn't acquiesce in
> > their use.
> >
> > /Larry
>
> The Tomcat PMC has been in contact with the author of "Tomcat Probe"
> and he is unwilling to change the name without an official Apache
> position that this is a trademark infringement.
>
> Where do I go to get such a statement? Is Larry's statement above it?
> If it is, I am concerned about the use of the phrase "I suggest...".
> IANAL. Is this just lawyer speak for "In my opinion x, but nothing is
> certain unless you go to court and ask a judge."?
>
> For the legally minded the author's position is:
> <quote>
> * "Tomcat Probe" is a phrase to express the very nature of the project
> and not just a catchphrase. It is my interpretation that "Tomcat
> Probe" qualifies as "customary description of work" and therefore does
> not violate Apache License and I will stand by this until I hear an
> official position of ASF on this matter.
> </quote>
>
> Finally, is this the right list to be having this discussion given
> that it is publicly archived? If not, where is?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice on this.
>
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
> only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
> constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
> and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
> official ASF policies and documents.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
> only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
> constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
> and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
> official ASF policies and documents.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
--
Jesse Kuhnert
Tacos/Tapestry, team member/developer
Open source based consulting work centered around
dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://opennotion.com
RE: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
I suggest we take this to legal-internal.
/Larry
Lawrence Rosen
Rosenlaw & Einschlag, a technology law firm (www.rosenlaw.com)
Stanford University, Lecturer in Law
3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482
707-485-1242 * fax: 707-485-1243
Author of "Open Source Licensing: Software Freedom and
Intellectual Property Law" (Prentice Hall 2004)
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Thomas [mailto:markt@apache.org]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 1:11 PM
To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com
Cc: legal-discuss@apache.org
Subject: Re: [ANN] TomcatProbe 1.0.8b is available to download
Lawrence Rosen wrote:
>>Upayavira wrote:
>>
>>>But surely 'Tomcat' is also an Apache trademark. It would, to my mind,
>>>be valid to describe it as "XXX Probe for Apache Tomcat", but not Tomcat
>>>Probe.
>>>
>>
>>This is what I am thinking. Can any one give a more definitive opinion
>>one way or the other?
>
>
> If we filed a US registration we'd be able to answer that question
> precisely. However, in our somewhat informal state of common law
trademark,
> which is all we have, it isn't clear to me what the "goods" are that are
in
> association with the "Tomcat" mark. That's one other advantage of
> registration.
>
> I suggest, though, that "Tomcat Probe software" would be an infringement
of
> our common law trademark in "Tomcat software." We shouldn't acquiesce in
> their use.
>
> /Larry
The Tomcat PMC has been in contact with the author of "Tomcat Probe"
and he is unwilling to change the name without an official Apache
position that this is a trademark infringement.
Where do I go to get such a statement? Is Larry's statement above it?
If it is, I am concerned about the use of the phrase "I suggest...".
IANAL. Is this just lawyer speak for "In my opinion x, but nothing is
certain unless you go to court and ask a judge."?
For the legally minded the author's position is:
<quote>
* "Tomcat Probe" is a phrase to express the very nature of the project
and not just a catchphrase. It is my interpretation that "Tomcat
Probe" qualifies as "customary description of work" and therefore does
not violate Apache License and I will stand by this until I hear an
official position of ASF on this matter.
</quote>
Finally, is this the right list to be having this discussion given
that it is publicly archived? If not, where is?
Thanks in advance for any advice on this.
Mark
---------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
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