RE: Integrating Mark Imel's List Manager

[Mark Imel <mi...@imelshire.com>]

Noel as far as cvs commit rights are concerned, i'm willing to accept
whatever responsibilites might be necessary, or if preferred just submit the
new source files as well as the cvs diffs for the build.xml and the
jaames-config.xml.  Either way is perfectly acceptable to me.

As far as the longer term plan for the ListManger is concerned, i am very
interested in helping to grow and expand the feature set as deemed important
by the James community.

And yes, you're absolutely correct about the X-been-there header.
So if you (or the James PMC Chair) could let me know if they'd like me to be
a candidate for james cvs commit rights, i'd appreciate the opprotunity.

Regards,
--mark imel


-----Original Message-----
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 10:58 AM
To: Mark Imel
Subject: Integrating Mark Imel's List Manager


Mark,

Why don't we move this back to the James-dev list?  :-)  Fee free to reply
back to the list on your next reply.  :-)

We are certainly looking for more contributors to step up to the plate and
help develop James.  With respect to CVS commit rights, those come with
additional responsibilities.  Bring it up on the james-dev list, and Serge
(the James PMC Chair) can give you more information.

With respect to the List Manager, what would help right now would be a patch
for the existing files, e.g., build.xml and james-config.xml, and current
versions of the new files.  That way makes it much easier for me to merge it
into the CVS.  Otherwise, I have to go figure out the changes for the
existing files, and apply them manually.

As a side note, shouldn't the X-been-there header be Deliveryed-To: mailing
list <listaddress>, following the qmail / ezmlm approach?

	--- Noel

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Imel [mailto:mimel@imelshire.com]
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 13:06
To: Noel J. Bergman
Subject: RE: You around?


To be honest, i'd be very pleased to contribute to the James project.  Did
you want to give me cvs rights?  A different version of the code drop?
etc???
Either way is fine by me.


-----Original Message-----
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 12:15 PM
To: Mark Imel
Subject: RE: You around?


Mark,

Actually, I disagree with you a bit.

One is that a real List Manager actually IS a priority for a number of
folks, myself included.  It is also important if James is to be used within
the ASF.  However, I've been focused on the bug parade for James v2, which I
think has been successful, and the package you provided wasn't just a
drop-in for the CVS.  What I would like to do is get it into the CVS, and
start using it on my live server to replace the original Listserv.  One of
the major problems with the current list server is that it doesn't do
confirmed opt-in, and that's a bad thing.

FWIW, one of the James users apparently has developed a proprietary list
server for James that they use to sell commercial services.

What you did may be "woefully inadequate" in terms of features, but you
provided a basis by which to expand the feature set, and that allows more
people to work on it.  I would like to get this into CVS, and encourage
other people to use it.

	--- Noel

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Imel [mailto:mimel@imelshire.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 14:28
To: Noel J. Bergman
Subject: RE: You around?


Sorry for not getting back sooner.

Here's my thoughts on the list manager.  Since i did the work on that awhile
ago, i've been actively reading the user and the dev lists for James.  Over
time, its become more and more clear what is relatively important and what
is unimportant to the James project.  I certainly see why the list manager
hasn't been on the high priority list.  Its just not a crucial requirement
or feature.  (In fact, i've barely used my implementation at all)

Next set of thoughts.  I've been doing a lot of work on a pet project over
at sourceforge (http://jarl2d.sourceforge.net/ Java/Animation stuff), and as
a part of the sourceforge services, they provide mailing lists to each
sourceforge project.  Naturally, i've been interested to see what sort of
features their list manager provided as well as what sort of administration
features they provide.

If you'll recall, my little proof-of-concept list manager had no
administrative features at all, and a relatively small subset of features.
This sourceforge list manager (powered by GNU Mailing List Manager
http://www.list.org/) has a tremendous amount of main options and features,
as well as an extensive amount of administrative features.

What i'm trying to get at, is yes, i could certainly check in my prototype
to cvs project, but it seems woefully inadequate compared to a real list
manager.

I'd be interested to get your feedback on this.
Regards, and thanks for remembering my continued interest in James.
--mark imel


-----Original Message-----
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:16 PM
To: Mark Imel
Subject: RE: You around?


I'm (finally! :-\) looking at integrating your list manager into James, and
wanted to see (a) if you had a newer version, and (b) if you would be
willing to help get the code merged into the CVS.

For example, you have provided a build.xml and config.xml.  I'd prefer if
you would submit a patch against the current build and config files.  Not
that it is a big deal, but I think that I'd move the "propsal.txt" [sic]
file into the mailets/listservcommands directory as a README file (just to
keep those things all together).

As I understand it, you're currently working with v2.  At some point, we
should also get this into HEAD, although if/when HEAD changes to use JNDI,
the whole idea of how we manage mailing lists is likely to change.  For
performance, I am thinking that a mailing list manager would want to
maintain in memory a SoftSet of members, rather than query on each message.

With respect to design by mail, I actually have found IM to be generally
(but not always) more effective.  Until we have IM integrated with e-mail
digest, the policy is to record at least everything important in e-mail.

	--- Noel

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Imel [mailto:mimel@imelshire.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 16:42
To: Noel J. Bergman
Subject: RE: You around?


Absolutely.  I've been silent, but reading all the mail.
I've found it fascinating how you guys are negotiating some of the design
decisions for v3 in a public forum.  I've had a fair amount of experience
designing large projects with other (talented) devs, but never only by
email.  The communication challenges seem a bit daunting.  Nevertheless,
you're handling the challenge extremely well... I've been impressed.

What's up?
--mark


-----Original Message-----
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 11:45 AM
To: mimel@imelshire.com
Subject: You around?


Mark,

Are you around these days?  Haven't seen you on the James list, and I had
some questions for you.

	--- Noel


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Re: Integrating Mark Imel's List Manager

[Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>]

Mark Imel wrote:
> Noel as far as cvs commit rights are concerned, i'm willing to accept
> whatever responsibilites might be necessary, or if preferred just submit the
> new source files as well as the cvs diffs for the build.xml and the
> jaames-config.xml.  Either way is perfectly acceptable to me.
> 
> As far as the longer term plan for the ListManger is concerned, i am very
> interested in helping to grow and expand the feature set as deemed important
> by the James community.
> 
> And yes, you're absolutely correct about the X-been-there header.
> So if you (or the James PMC Chair) could let me know if they'd like me to be
> a candidate for james cvs commit rights, i'd appreciate the opprotunity.

Mark,

I'm glad to see you're interested in being a committer.  To briefly the 
process, one committer nominates the new person, the committers vote, 
and if there are at least 3 +1 votes and no -1 votes, then that person 
gets made a committer.  There's also a good article that describes the 
complete progression at http://jakarta.apache.org/site/contributing.html

In practice, committer rights come from someone submitting a series of 
patches that get successfully incorporated into the codebase.  Once 
enough committers know you and think you're adding positively to the 
project, the nomination happens and the vote is typically positive.

If you can continue to send patches to the dev list as discussed, 
hopefully we'll vote on you before too long.

-- 
Serge Knystautas
President
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com


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RE: Integrating Mark Imel's List Manager

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

Mark,

For the moment, do you think that you could submit the patched versions of
any changed files, and the full source for your code?  I'll merge it into
the CVS, although I'll hold off just long enough to tag version 2.1.3 for
release.

With respect to the long term plan for List Manager, it does seem that there
is interest.  That's very good to see.  :-)

See http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html for information the various
kinds of roles and responsibilities involved in ASF projects.

	--- Noel


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