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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org> on 2007/01/04 09:42:58 UTC
Documentation: Forrest vs. Lenya (was: ForrestBot build for zones
FAILED)
Doug Chestnut schrieb:
> Hi Devs,
> Looks like a file is missing somewhere in the documentation process.
>
> I just looked over the docs at
> http://lenya.apache.org/docs/website-update.html and all I have to say
> is Wow.
>
> Makes me wonder how hard it would be to just run documentation
> publication in our zone and do a wget to get the static lenya website,
> at least we would be sort of eating our own dog food.
That sounds really appealing.
Does someone remember why we moved from our own documentation
publication to Forrest?
-- Andreas
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Re: Documentation: Forrest vs. Lenya (was: ForrestBot build for
zones FAILED)
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler schrieb:
[...]
>> however we decide, it's clear that the website needs more attention. it
>> is also clear that this burden is not evenly distributed among lenya
>> contributors, but at least imho that's because it is too much of a
>> hassle atm.
>
> Not sure why, but docu contributions are very rare that is true. Not
> sure of changing the tool will increase this but we can try.
Actually, I don't think that we'll write more documentation.
IMO it is easy enough ATM. I rather see the advantage in the
"eat our own dogfood" aspect.
I think that the website update process is too complex, especially
copying the pages from docu to site and checking them in. But I have
to admit that I didn't take the time to try the forrestbot yet.
Maybe all this could happen on the zones server?
-- Andreas
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Re: Documentation: Forrest vs. Lenya
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Jann Forrer schrieb:
> Joern Nettingsmeier wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
>> as doug said, it would certainly be good to use lenya for the lenya
>
> +1
>
>> website. this would accomplish a number of important things:
>> * we have a constant mission-critical testbed that needs looking after
>> and has to work
>> * this testbed is in a non-root context and thus helps finding bugs
>> * we have to keep our static exporter in good shape
>> * ultimately, i would like to see lenya evolve so that automatically
>> generated and dynamic content can be easily integrated, while retaining
>> the nice "click to edit" approach that the lenya default publication has.
>>
> Very important points!
> BTW I use wget and (some unix commands) to export a publication content
> as static html:
Me too:
wget --cut-dirs=2 -P html -nH -r -k http://localhost:8888/becompany/live/
-- Andreas
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Re: Documentation: Forrest vs. Lenya
Posted by Jann Forrer <ja...@id.uzh.ch>.
Joern Nettingsmeier wrote:
[ ... ]
>
> as doug said, it would certainly be good to use lenya for the lenya
+1
> website. this would accomplish a number of important things:
> * we have a constant mission-critical testbed that needs looking after
> and has to work
> * this testbed is in a non-root context and thus helps finding bugs
> * we have to keep our static exporter in good shape
> * ultimately, i would like to see lenya evolve so that automatically
> generated and dynamic content can be easily integrated, while retaining
> the nice "click to edit" approach that the lenya default publication has.
>
Very important points!
BTW I use wget and (some unix commands) to export a publication content
as static html:
http://www.id.unizh.ch/cl/zinfo/zinfo0021/index.html
But a useful static exporter is certainly needed!
Jann
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Re: Documentation: Forrest vs. Lenya (was: ForrestBot build for zones
FAILED)
Posted by Joern Nettingsmeier <ne...@folkwang-hochschule.de>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-01-04 at 10:49 +0100, Joern Nettingsmeier wrote:
>> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>>> Doug Chestnut schrieb:
>>> Does someone remember why we moved from our own documentation
>>> publication to Forrest?
>> my guess is that thorsten came up with it to help with continuous
>> integration between lenya and forrest and to reap some cross-pollination
>> benefits... - thorsten, can you comment?
>
> nupp, when I got active lenya committer we had a forrest documentation
> and I just updated it since around 2003. The forrest publication did not
> work when I updated forrest so we just used a plain forrest doc one.
i see. sorry for guessing wrong.
> Regarding cross-pollination, I see so many features in lenya and forrest
> duplicated and both communities are very small, I think it would help
> both to cooperate.
certainly, but i'm still waiting for the "hey, cool!" moment regarding
forrest. i got that very quickly when i first saw daisy or blueprint,
and i even had it with lenya :-D, but i seem to be missing the point of
forrest, at least when considering the needs of the lenya website.
>> as it is now, i can't be bothered to take care of the website, because
>> it is just to complicated for my taste and i refuse to set up a forrest
>> environment just to be able to do minor doc updates.
>
> Hmm, without forrest set up it is hard to follow the update process. If
> you set up forrest you can publish the docu with a couple of comments
> http://lenya.apache.org/docs/website-update.html#Let+forrestbot+help+you
hmm. in my world, when i want to change web content, there are 2 options:
a) i don't care much for looks and want it really simple: i use a wiki,
click edit, click save, done.
b) i want consistent look-and-feel and enforce structure: i edit some
xml source document, run a generator script over it and the stuff is online.
what benefits does forrest bring that could make me unpack a huge
project on my harddisk, learn to install and run it and then follow a
ten-step process each time i want to do a minor update?
> http://forrest.apache.org/
> "Apache Forrest is a publishing framework that transforms input from
> various sources into a unified presentation in one or more output
> formats. The modular and extensible plugin architecture is based on
> Apache Cocoon and relevant standards, which separates presentation from
> content. Forrest can generate static documents, or be used as a dynamic
> server, or be deployed by its automated facility."
>
> The benefit of forrest is that you have a publishing environment for
> pdf, html, odt, ... out of the box. It is normally very easy to set up
> and use.
<snip>
> x input format will be generated into one internal format and
> from there to x different output formats (out of the box). I like the
> concept, but if the community would like something different I am not
> standing in the way. Like said above I just helped out updating the
> docu.
ok. i can identify two sources of content on the lenya website:
* our javadocs (would be nice if they were kept up-to-date automagically)
* the rest. hand-written or cut-and-pasted from the wiki.
we don't really need any other output formats than html.
sounds like a job for a couple of xslts and a small zoo of bash scripts.
but then i read about "dispatchers", "plugins", "proxies", "compile",
"locationmaps" and a friendly "forrestbot" that rebuilds content every
night that gets updated once per decade. whoa. i've been to some weird
places before, but all this sounds a little intimidating ;)
as doug said, it would certainly be good to use lenya for the lenya
website. this would accomplish a number of important things:
* we have a constant mission-critical testbed that needs looking after
and has to work
* this testbed is in a non-root context and thus helps finding bugs
* we have to keep our static exporter in good shape
* ultimately, i would like to see lenya evolve so that automatically
generated and dynamic content can be easily integrated, while retaining
the nice "click to edit" approach that the lenya default publication has.
regards,
jörn
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Re: Documentation: Forrest vs. Lenya (was: ForrestBot build for
zones FAILED)
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 2007-01-04 at 10:49 +0100, Joern Nettingsmeier wrote:
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> > Doug Chestnut schrieb:
> >> Hi Devs,
> >> Looks like a file is missing somewhere in the documentation process.
> >>
> >> I just looked over the docs at
> >> http://lenya.apache.org/docs/website-update.html and all I have to say
> >> is Wow.
> >>
> >> Makes me wonder how hard it would be to just run documentation
> >> publication in our zone and do a wget to get the static lenya website,
> >> at least we would be sort of eating our own dog food.
> >
> > That sounds really appealing.
>
> +1
>
> > Does someone remember why we moved from our own documentation
> > publication to Forrest?
>
> my guess is that thorsten came up with it to help with continuous
> integration between lenya and forrest and to reap some cross-pollination
> benefits... - thorsten, can you comment?
nupp, when I got active lenya committer we had a forrest documentation
and I just updated it since around 2003. The forrest publication did not
work when I updated forrest so we just used a plain forrest doc one.
Regarding cross-pollination, I see so many features in lenya and forrest
duplicated and both communities are very small, I think it would help
both to cooperate.
>
> as it is now, i can't be bothered to take care of the website, because
> it is just to complicated for my taste and i refuse to set up a forrest
> environment just to be able to do minor doc updates.
Hmm, without forrest set up it is hard to follow the update process. If
you set up forrest you can publish the docu with a couple of comments
http://lenya.apache.org/docs/website-update.html#Let+forrestbot+help+you
> but maybe that is only because i don't understand the benefits of the
> current system - my understanding of forrest concepts and goals is vague
> at best.
http://forrest.apache.org/
"Apache Forrest is a publishing framework that transforms input from
various sources into a unified presentation in one or more output
formats. The modular and extensible plugin architecture is based on
Apache Cocoon and relevant standards, which separates presentation from
content. Forrest can generate static documents, or be used as a dynamic
server, or be deployed by its automated facility."
The benefit of forrest is that you have a publishing environment for
pdf, html, odt, ... out of the box. It is normally very easy to set up
and use.
> perhaps someone (thorsten?) could educate us about why forrest is cool
> for our particular usage scenario, and then we can decide whether to
> move to lenya/wget or stick to the current method.
see above. x input format will be generated into one internal format and
from there to x different output formats (out of the box). I like the
concept, but if the community would like something different I am not
standing in the way. Like said above I just helped out updating the
docu.
> however we decide, it's clear that the website needs more attention. it
> is also clear that this burden is not evenly distributed among lenya
> contributors, but at least imho that's because it is too much of a
> hassle atm.
Not sure why, but docu contributions are very rare that is true. Not
sure of changing the tool will increase this but we can try.
salu2
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@lenya.apache.org
>
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
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Re: Documentation: Forrest vs. Lenya (was: ForrestBot build for zones
FAILED)
Posted by Joern Nettingsmeier <ne...@folkwang-hochschule.de>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Doug Chestnut schrieb:
>> Hi Devs,
>> Looks like a file is missing somewhere in the documentation process.
>>
>> I just looked over the docs at
>> http://lenya.apache.org/docs/website-update.html and all I have to say
>> is Wow.
>>
>> Makes me wonder how hard it would be to just run documentation
>> publication in our zone and do a wget to get the static lenya website,
>> at least we would be sort of eating our own dog food.
>
> That sounds really appealing.
+1
> Does someone remember why we moved from our own documentation
> publication to Forrest?
my guess is that thorsten came up with it to help with continuous
integration between lenya and forrest and to reap some cross-pollination
benefits... - thorsten, can you comment?
as it is now, i can't be bothered to take care of the website, because
it is just to complicated for my taste and i refuse to set up a forrest
environment just to be able to do minor doc updates.
but maybe that is only because i don't understand the benefits of the
current system - my understanding of forrest concepts and goals is vague
at best.
perhaps someone (thorsten?) could educate us about why forrest is cool
for our particular usage scenario, and then we can decide whether to
move to lenya/wget or stick to the current method.
however we decide, it's clear that the website needs more attention. it
is also clear that this burden is not evenly distributed among lenya
contributors, but at least imho that's because it is too much of a
hassle atm.
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