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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org> on 2005/03/21 18:17:15 UTC
Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?
Hi,
Just want to clear some things about all the *branding misuse* :)
Looking at the archives (and trust me, took me a weekend), I
really have not found a firm standpoint, because there where
so many Chairmans and Directors with opposite statements.
So the question is what is the actual name of the thing that
we all know as Tomcat?
Is it 'Apache Jakarta Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat' or
'Jakarta Tomcat'?
If it's 'Apache Tomcat' like couple of people suggested
recently, then the question is what is 'Apache Tomcat' doing
inside 'Apache Jakarta'?
Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers),
propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP?
I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me)
'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there
is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each
of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as
encrypted or evil :).
Regards,
Mladen.
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Yes, Noel. i have the same feeling that Stephen has:
"it seems likely (based on emails to the thread from Tomcat
committers) that this PR release would have been a non-issue. "
So the tomcat committers would be doing it on their own terms. with no
one pushing them. Quote from Mladen's email:
"so many Chairmans and Directors with opposite statements"
Quote from Costin's email makes me think that they are ready for it:
"If tomcat would be a top level project instead of jakarta-tomcat,
most likely Remy would be the PMC chair. Acording to ASF rules, the
PMC chair is the ultimate decision maker for a project."
And i love the quote from Remy:
""more code, less politics"
So i'd say what is the benchmark for TLP? If the tomcat committers
want it and show the will to do it. Why not?
The only question in my mind is do they want it?
thanks,
dims
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:56:54 -0500, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Dims,
>
> The new TLP would be expected to address the same issues, and to work with
> the PRC and other parts of the ASF, but they'd be more immediately
> associated with them, too.
>
> --- Noel
>
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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Dims,
The new TLP would be expected to address the same issues, and to work with
the PRC and other parts of the ASF, but they'd be more immediately
associated with them, too.
--- Noel
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Pros:
- Tomcat pmc will be responsible for all its actions and decisions
- Report directly to board every quarter
- No meddling from outsiders (jakarta-general folks and others (read
jakarta pmc) from the peanut gallery :)
- Top Level domain - http://tomcat.apache.org/
- One of pmc members can become a VP
- Tomcat committers (via pmc) will have full control over all affairs
including what to name the thingy :)
Cons:
- Can't think of any off the top of my head.
-- dims
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:27:32 +0100, Henri Gomez <he...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
>
> As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
> this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
>
> What motivate the move to TLP now.
>
> Regards
>
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:16:51 -0500, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > Mladen Turk wrote:
> >
> > > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > > I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
> >
> > > Cool, means so much to me.
> > > I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)
> >
> > My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that
> > there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss.
> > As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing
> > the product for JBoss. And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you
> > and many others with veto rights. In fact, although I have not looked to do
> > a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby,
> > Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few.
> >
> > > > If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy
> > > > getting caught in the crossfire.
> >
> > > Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.
> >
> > I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On Mon, 2005-03-21 at 17:20 -0800, Bill Barker wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Colebourne" <sc...@btopenworld.com>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
>
>
> > From: "Henri Gomez" <he...@gmail.com>
> > > Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
> > >
> > > As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
> > > this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
> > >
> > > What motivate the move to TLP now.
> >
> > Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from their main
> > task (coding) to answer management issues raised by Jakarta. This raises
> the
> > question of whether Tomcat is big enough and mature enough to manage these
> > issues itself, without the involvement of Jakarta.
> >
>
> Great. Now this thread has moved from JBoss-bashing to dissing the entire
> Tomcat community.
>
> I'm looking forward to your involvement on tomcat-dev so that we can all
> know that Tomcat has the proper adult supervision.
this isn't tomcat bashing: it applies equally to all jakarta
sub-projects.
the jakarta pmc (including stephen) supervises every sub-project
(including tomcat) on behalf of the board. once a sub-project community
feels that they are ready to manage their own affairs, that's great but
there can be no question of self-governing sub-projects: it's time for
them to move on and up :)
- robert
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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from
> > their main task (coding) to answer management issues raised by
> > Jakarta. This raises the question of whether Tomcat is big
> > enough and mature enough to manage these issues itself, without
> > the involvement of Jakarta.
> Great. Now this thread has moved from JBoss-bashing to dissing
> the entire Tomcat community.
Where did you see that from what he said? He correctly noted that moving to
TLP status has certain requirements, but no one has said that Tomcat does
not possess them. Quite to the contrary from most notes I've read on this
thread.
--- Noel
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by Bill Barker <wb...@wilshire.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Colebourne" <sc...@btopenworld.com>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
> From: "Henri Gomez" <he...@gmail.com>
> > Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
> >
> > As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
> > this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
> >
> > What motivate the move to TLP now.
>
> Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from their main
> task (coding) to answer management issues raised by Jakarta. This raises
the
> question of whether Tomcat is big enough and mature enough to manage these
> issues itself, without the involvement of Jakarta.
>
Great. Now this thread has moved from JBoss-bashing to dissing the entire
Tomcat community.
I'm looking forward to your involvement on tomcat-dev so that we can all
know that Tomcat has the proper adult supervision.
> For example, in this case, if Tomcat were a TLP, it seems likely (based on
> emails to the thread from Tomcat committers) that this PR release would
have
> been a non-issue.
>
> Stephen
>
>
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
From: "Henri Gomez" <he...@gmail.com>
> Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
>
> As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
> this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
>
> What motivate the move to TLP now.
Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from their main
task (coding) to answer management issues raised by Jakarta. This raises the
question of whether Tomcat is big enough and mature enough to manage these
issues itself, without the involvement of Jakarta.
For example, in this case, if Tomcat were a TLP, it seems likely (based on
emails to the thread from Tomcat committers) that this PR release would have
been a non-issue.
Stephen
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by Henri Gomez <he...@gmail.com>.
Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
What motivate the move to TLP now.
Regards
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:16:51 -0500, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Mladen Turk wrote:
>
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
>
> > Cool, means so much to me.
> > I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)
>
> My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that
> there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss.
> As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing
> the product for JBoss. And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you
> and many others with veto rights. In fact, although I have not looked to do
> a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby,
> Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few.
>
> > > If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy
> > > getting caught in the crossfire.
>
> > Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.
>
> I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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>
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>.
> Please, lets calm the things down.
> Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
> will still spin tomorrow.
...that's an excellent ending for this discussion :)
Thanks
--
Torsten
Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Mar 21, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> Please, lets calm the things down.
>> Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
>> will still spin tomorrow.
>
> Well, actually, if it would pause briefly on Wednesday, that'd be OK.
> I
> have to fly east, and would rather not chase the horizon for 3000
> miles.
Yeah, but that would result in some serious damage to the real-estate
with all the buildings disintegrating and such.
Maybe the cheaper alternative is to get an upgrade to business class?
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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--
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geir@gluecode.com
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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Please, lets calm the things down.
> Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
> will still spin tomorrow.
Well, actually, if it would pause briefly on Wednesday, that'd be OK. I
have to fly east, and would rather not chase the horizon for 3000 miles.
--- Noel
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.
>
Please, lets calm the things down.
Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
will still spin tomorrow.
Regards,
Mladen.
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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Mladen Turk wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
> Cool, means so much to me.
> I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)
My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that
there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss.
As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing
the product for JBoss. And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you
and many others with veto rights. In fact, although I have not looked to do
a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby,
Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few.
> > If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy
> > getting caught in the crossfire.
> Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.
I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.
--- Noel
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
Cool, means so much to me.
I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)
> Only over your employer's attempts at self-portraiture. If anything, I am
> more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy getting caught in the crossfire.
>
Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.
Regards,
Mladen.
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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Mladen Turk wrote:
> > Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers),
> > propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP?
I'd say that it is about time.
> I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me)
> 'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there
> is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each
> of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as
> encrypted or evil :).
I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
Only over your employer's attempts at self-portraiture. If anything, I am
more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy getting caught in the crossfire.
--- Noel
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Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Mar 21, 2005, at 12:17 PM, Mladen Turk wrote:
>
> Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers),
> propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP?
>
Personally, I think the Tomcat community is large enough and
healthy enough to warrant change to a TLP.
> I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me)
> 'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there
> is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each
> of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as
> encrypted or evil :).
Now you're just being paranoid ;)
But then again, when I pass your Email through my
patented is-it-evil.py Evil detection code, it
decodes as "Bwaaa Haaaa Haaaaa Haaaaa"! Ack!! :)
Cheers!
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Re: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Mladen Turk wrote:
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>>
>> Were you striking a Dr Evil pose while you wrote this? :)
>>
>
> No, I was striking a Rhett Buttler's pose:
> "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" :)
>
>> My (strong) advice is that the Tomcat subcommunity have a quick decision on
>> what they would like to do about the SD magazine issue. If you don't want
>> to send an email, decide and I believe the general Jakarta community view
>> will be that we disagree but that your decision holds the most weight.
>>
>
> I think that Tomcat community has expressed his decisions.
> I didn't wish to particapate (for obvious reason).
> Remy did, but he is French ;).
> Other guys like Costin and Bill said enough, I think.
> Of course, send the mail to tomcat-dev@, since it's
> up to those people to decide I suppose.
Our voting works on a +1/-1 basis, with +0 and -0 being used for
non-binding vague inclination. I could be wrong but Bill, Remy, Costin and
yourself are all basically saying -0. Costin has had a -1, but with
conditions (ie that this is targetted solely at JBoss) that are (as
someone with an expert understanding of the inside of my skull) easy to
claim are not true.
Technically I guess it's up to the PMC members on the Tomcat subcommunity
to decide, and you're all on this list.
I admit that it would be best for a -1 to come from Costin, Bill or Yoav,
as yourself and Remy are in a less than desirable position when this stuff
comes up.
Hen
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Re: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?
Posted by Mladen Turk <mt...@apache.org>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> Were you striking a Dr Evil pose while you wrote this? :)
>
No, I was striking a Rhett Buttler's pose:
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" :)
> My (strong) advice is that the Tomcat subcommunity have a quick decision
> on what they would like to do about the SD magazine issue. If you don't
> want to send an email, decide and I believe the general Jakarta
> community view will be that we disagree but that your decision holds the
> most weight.
>
I think that Tomcat community has expressed his decisions.
I didn't wish to particapate (for obvious reason).
Remy did, but he is French ;).
Other guys like Costin and Bill said enough, I think.
Of course, send the mail to tomcat-dev@, since it's
up to those people to decide I suppose.
Regards,
Mladen
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Re: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Mladen Turk wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Just want to clear some things about all the *branding misuse* :)
> Looking at the archives (and trust me, took me a weekend), I
> really have not found a firm standpoint, because there where
> so many Chairmans and Directors with opposite statements.
>
> So the question is what is the actual name of the thing that
> we all know as Tomcat?
>
> Is it 'Apache Jakarta Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat' or
> 'Jakarta Tomcat'?
>
> If it's 'Apache Tomcat' like couple of people suggested
> recently, then the question is what is 'Apache Tomcat' doing
> inside 'Apache Jakarta'?
Originally, Jakarta Tomcat. Logically, Apache Jakarta Tomcat as of a
couple of years ago when the Apache side of Jakarta was being emphasised.
Last August there was a long thread in which it was agreed by consensus
(ie it was suggested and nobody disagreed, and various people +1'd and
acted including a couple of Tomcat committers) to make it Apache Tomcat.
However, it was hardly broadcast/followed up on (sorry, my fault) and
confusion is not a surprise.
> Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers),
> propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP?
I see two direct benefits.
1) Tomcat will have a much more direct channel to the board and will not
be relying on me as a confused bystander. I use Tomcat regularly, but I'm
only aware of dev issues at a surface level.
2) It makes my job easier :) The less there is to worry about oversight
of, the less time I have to allot from coding to do oversight. Perhaps a
bit simplistic.
I also think there are user benefits, TLPs are easier to understand, and
in terms of a long term future for Java@Apache, it makes sense for Jakarta
to be less of an umbrella as I don't believe we are likely to be able to
setup the kind of system an umbrella needs to perform optimally (an entire
second layer of management etc).
> I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me)
> 'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there
> is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each
> of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as
> encrypted or evil :).
Were you striking a Dr Evil pose while you wrote this? :)
My (strong) advice is that the Tomcat subcommunity have a quick decision
on what they would like to do about the SD magazine issue. If you don't
want to send an email, decide and I believe the general Jakarta community
view will be that we disagree but that your decision holds the most
weight.
Currently a list of -0's is just not enough to outweigh the general view
from your Jakarta peers.
Hen
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RE: Is it 'Jakarta Apache Tomcat' or 'Apache Tomcat'?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Mladen Turk wrote:
> Just want to clear some things about all the *branding misuse* :)
Talk with the PRC.
> Looking at the archives (and trust me, took me a weekend), I
> really have not found a firm standpoint
Hence the PRC.
> So the question is what is the actual name of the thing that
> we all know as Tomcat?
The PRC exists to address and ensure consistency in such matters.
--- Noel
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