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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Greg Stein <gs...@apache.org> on 2003/01/05 23:27:41 UTC
who decides? (was: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 04:31:43AM -0800, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>...
> > I'd agree with this last sentence. But given the Tapestry
> > developers originally put the proposal to Jakarta, and that all
> > new projects were supposed to come through 'incubation' (AFAIK),
> > that's how they got here.
>
> And, perhaps, the role of the Incubator is to place a brake on some
> of the growth. Or, perhaps not (the incubator PMC gets to decide).
> Uncontrolled growth may not be beneficial long-term. But, I've yet
> to see a discussion on how much growth we're willing to handle.
That is absolutely not the role for the Incubator. The Board did not create
it with the idea that it is the decision maker on what belongs at the ASF.
That is up to all of the PMCs. The Incubator is for dealing with their
decisions -- for bringing the code in and ensuring the new community
observes our requirements and ideals.
The Jakarta PMC said "yes, we want it" and now the Incubator is responsible
for dealing with that.
If the HTTPD PMC said "yes, we want mod_whatzit" then the Incubator brings
it into the ASF.
But the Incubator *CANNOT* dictate their ideas of what is or is not "proper"
for the ASF to those other PMCs. Absolutely not. If there is any question
about that, then I'm more than happy to get an official statement from the
Board to that effect.
"Wah wah, but that means the PMCs can create unbounded work for us." Those
other PMCs should be participating in the process. If they impose too much
work and the incubation process slows as a result, then they can help it
along (in their own self-interest) by adding their own people to the mix.
Cheers,
-g
--
gstein@apache.org ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/
Re: who decides? (was: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> Let's get Tapestry rolling instead of trying to wear a cap that doesn't
> belong here.
>
Absolutely.
Re: who decides? (was: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Greg Stein wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 04:31:43AM -0800, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
>>...
>>
>>>I'd agree with this last sentence. But given the Tapestry
>>>developers originally put the proposal to Jakarta, and that all
>>>new projects were supposed to come through 'incubation' (AFAIK),
>>>that's how they got here.
>>
>>And, perhaps, the role of the Incubator is to place a brake on some
>>of the growth. Or, perhaps not (the incubator PMC gets to decide).
>>Uncontrolled growth may not be beneficial long-term. But, I've yet
>>to see a discussion on how much growth we're willing to handle.
>
>
> That is absolutely not the role for the Incubator. The Board did not create
> it with the idea that it is the decision maker on what belongs at the ASF.
> That is up to all of the PMCs. The Incubator is for dealing with their
> decisions -- for bringing the code in and ensuring the new community
> observes our requirements and ideals.
>
> The Jakarta PMC said "yes, we want it" and now the Incubator is responsible
> for dealing with that.
That's what I told Andy when he questioned me about what the Incubator
should do. And that's also why I got a bit angry with the current
yes-no-yes-no-wewantit-nowedon't stuff.
Let's get Tapestry rolling instead of trying to wear a cap that doesn't
belong here.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: who decides? (was: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Wow, if that is how the incubator is to function I absolutely want to be
a part of it.
What I am observing does not seem to match this.
-Andy
>
>
> That is absolutely not the role for the Incubator. The Board did not create
> it with the idea that it is the decision maker on what belongs at the ASF.
> That is up to all of the PMCs. The Incubator is for dealing with their
> decisions -- for bringing the code in and ensuring the new community
> observes our requirements and ideals.
>
> The Jakarta PMC said "yes, we want it" and now the Incubator is responsible
> for dealing with that.
>
> If the HTTPD PMC said "yes, we want mod_whatzit" then the Incubator brings
> it into the ASF.
>
> But the Incubator *CANNOT* dictate their ideas of what is or is not "proper"
> for the ASF to those other PMCs. Absolutely not. If there is any question
> about that, then I'm more than happy to get an official statement from the
> Board to that effect.
>
> "Wah wah, but that means the PMCs can create unbounded work for us." Those
> other PMCs should be participating in the process. If they impose too much
> work and the incubation process slows as a result, then they can help it
> along (in their own self-interest) by adding their own people to the mix.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
Re: who decides? (was: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Sunday, January 5, 2003 2:27 PM -0800 Greg Stein
<gs...@apache.org> wrote:
> The Jakarta PMC said "yes, we want it" and now the Incubator is
> responsible for dealing with that.
And, how should the ASF deal with creation of new PMCs? -- justin
Re: who decides? (was: [Tapestry-contrib] Re: Tapestry?)
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Sunday, January 5, 2003, at 02:27 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 05, 2003 at 04:31:43AM -0800, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>> ...
>>> I'd agree with this last sentence. But given the Tapestry
>>> developers originally put the proposal to Jakarta, and that all
>>> new projects were supposed to come through 'incubation' (AFAIK),
>>> that's how they got here.
>>
>> And, perhaps, the role of the Incubator is to place a brake on some
>> of the growth. Or, perhaps not (the incubator PMC gets to decide).
>> Uncontrolled growth may not be beneficial long-term. But, I've yet
>> to see a discussion on how much growth we're willing to handle.
>
> That is absolutely not the role for the Incubator. The Board did not
> create
> it with the idea that it is the decision maker on what belongs at the
> ASF.
> That is up to all of the PMCs. The Incubator is for dealing with their
> decisions -- for bringing the code in and ensuring the new community
> observes our requirements and ideals.
That's quite harsh, and I think you're missing Justin's point. It seems
to me he's saying that the Incubator is here to make sure that
new projects follow our rules and don't get out of control. It is
obvious that this is a problem that Incubator was created in part to
solve. Staying under control may mean "placing a brake" on the
expectations
of some of the current PMCs, at least to begin with, but once we're all
on the same page WRT ASF expectations, oversight obligations, etc...
then I don't see the Incubator acting as a "brake" anymore.
> The Jakarta PMC said "yes, we want it" and now the Incubator is
> responsible
> for dealing with that.
Correct, assuming "it" is in line with the foundation philosophies:
RESOLVED, that the Apache Incubator PMC is responsible for
regularly evaluating products under its purview and making the
determination in each case of whether the product should be
abandoned, continue to receive guidance and support, or
proposed to the board for promotion to full project status as
part of an existing or new Foundation PMC; and be it further
> If the HTTPD PMC said "yes, we want mod_whatzit" then the Incubator
> brings
> it into the ASF.
>
> But the Incubator *CANNOT* dictate their ideas of what is or is not
> "proper"
> for the ASF to those other PMCs. Absolutely not. If there is any
> question
> about that, then I'm more than happy to get an official statement from
> the
> Board to that effect.
I don't believe it is within the responsibility or right of the
Incubator
PMC to tell other PMCs how to interpret their own charters. That means
that
at a technological level Incubator has little or no say. That is not
what is on the table here, though. What's on the table is whether or not
said new project(s) are in line with ASF philosophies, and if they ever
can
be. That is most definitely under the purview of the Incubator PMC:
RESOLVED, that the Apache Incubator PMC is responsible for
providing guidance and ensuring that subprojects under its
purview develop products according to the Foundation's
philosophy and guidelines for collaborative development; and be
it further
So who defines this? Think of it this way -- the Incubator is the
executive branch, and the members are the legislators.
> "Wah wah, but that means the PMCs can create unbounded work for us."
> Those
> other PMCs should be participating in the process. If they impose too
> much
> work and the incubation process slows as a result, then they can help
> it
> along (in their own self-interest) by adding their own people to the
> mix.
That's not a fear I have, actually quite the contrary. If that's a
problem we
have then the ASF is probably doing pretty well.
-aaron