[OT] "Show me the money..I mean Lines" WAS Re: Struts vs .NET???

[Rick Reumann <st...@reumann.net>]

Replying changing the subject so people don't think this is a struts vs 
.net debate... I'm still curious what John Henry is talking about with 
this GUI and less lines of code concept.. my comments below...

> John Henry Xu wrote the following on 7/2/2005 6:43 AM:
> 
>> Is writting lots of getters and setters manually the most productive way in real
>> projects?
> 
> 

Rick Reumann reply:

> You keep coming back to this getters and setters thing:) Like I said any 
> editor (even vim:) can create getters and setters. I take it you think 
> Struts is all about getters and setters? Seriously, don't take offense 
> to this, but I'm wondering how many Struts applications you actually 
> coded? I usually have several ActionForms and some beans which do have 
> get/set methods. The beans (value objects/dto's) I'd have even if I was 
> coding an application in Swing/.NET or whatever. So your main thrust 
> here seems to be about ActionForms and get/set methods? Honestly that's 
> such a small part of the whole process I still can't believe you are 
> harping on it. I think we can terminate listening to your posts because 
> of this statement:
> 
> "My experience was Struts have more
> codes and configuration files than straight forward JSP+Javabean+taglibs
> approach that was done before."
> 
> This tells me either:
> 
> A) You haven't used Struts much
> 
> OR
> 
> C) The applications you write using your home-grown approach have to be 
> quite sucky and would be a royal pain to maintain and refactor as 
> requirements change.
> 
> I make this claim because Struts (and other web application frameworks) 
> provide ALREADY WRITTEN CODE in jars that you'd have to write YOURSELF 
> if you didn't use a framework. So, to quote you, - more lines mean more 
> time and a waste of money. So under your own logic you are costing your 
> company a TON of money and you might want to think about adopting some 
> web framework for your developers to start using.
> 
> I can get into all the little things web frameworks provide, but here 
> are some simple questions I have for you that maybe you can answer from 
> 'your experience'...
> 
> Where do your forms submit to?
> 
> How do you handle/configure where the page forwards to after the request 
> is sent?
> 
> When you need to change the flow of the application (what page forwards 
> to where) how do you make this change?
> 
> How do you handle server side validation problems and display messages 
> to the user about these server side problems?
> 
> If you handled ANY of the above than I will GUARANTEE you that I can 
> take your SAME application, and not change any of your business logic, 
> and end up with code that is CLEANER and, most importantly from your 
> perspective, written in LESS lines.
> 
> I truly truly would love for you to zip up a sample of one of your web 
> applications and let us check out this 'smaller' code base. Please do 
> it. Pretty please.
> 
> I'm sorry if I sound a bit hostile, but I've had this 'argument' with so 
> many people over the years. They say stuff like "I don't see why use 
> (insert your favorite web framework), you just complicate things and end 
> up with more code and configuration files." Then what happens is I see 
> their code and see all the wasted stuff they are doing that a web 
> framework provides 'out of the box.' I think the problem is these people 
> don't see how the framework saves time because they haven't worked with.
> 
> Do these frameworks have problems? Yes, they do. I'm not a fan of 
> ActionForms myself, but I do see their place in the Struts world. JSF 
> seems to have gotten rid of them. Some frameworks the learning curve 
> looks too steep for me to invest the time in it (Spring's UI framework 
> seemed to be one of these back in the day when I first considered it... 
> the docs sucked). Others out there seem good, but I'm just too 
> comfortable with Struts to make the change. I can whip out a quality web 
> app using Struts and iBATIS in practically no time at all. Granted, yes, 
> Struts has a learning curve, but once you learn it you can apply it to 
> any app or other apps that are coded with it. Conversely, if we take 
> your "JSP+Javabean+taglibs only" application it will be much more 
> difficult for a new person to the application to understand (again, you 
> are all about saving money so I'm not sure how you can't see how your 
> home-grown approach will cost you more in the long run).
> 


-- 
Rick

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